UA Ranger/ Rogue help

[Jaxxen]

Hello friends! Just got invited to a game on this coming Saturday and I also just so happen to of discovered the UA ranger variant and im dying to try it out.

So essentially my plan was half elf(half drow SCAG) rogue/ranger multiclass but realistically I'm at a loss of when to take certain levels.

I've done some reading and intend to take rogue at first level since it nets me the most in terms of skills and abilities. The campaign will be starting at level 4.

To break down my plan at least as it makes sense to me this is how id take the levels but if there is something better please let me know!

1: Rogue (all the skills + 1d6 sneak attack + expertise (stealth / perception)
2:Ranger (archery)
3:Ranger
4:Ranger (underdark scout)

At this point I was thinking 2 more ranger to get the bonus attack and picking up Sharpshooter feat, its here where it gets fuzzy for me is it better to get sharpshooter or ASI or maybe Alert feat, since I plan to go rogue assassin as well. I think alert maybe useless since the ranger gets advantage on iniative rolls. After 5 ranger levels I will go back to rogue for 3 levels of rogue to pick up assassin and the ASI. After that I'm lost on what would be the best way to go forward, I was thinking a total of 15 ranger/5 rogue just unclear on when to take that 5th and final level of rogue.

Sorry for my rambling thanks in advance for any help ! :)

[joaber]

I would start as ranger. Dex ST prof is great, but wis can make you enemy of your allies.
Skill profi and expertise aren't that great at lvl 1, since is just a +2. When you multiclass to rogue, you get +1 prof skill +prof in thieve's tools.
Archery is only in lvl 2. So I would ranger until lvl 5 to get extra attack and spells lvl 2, than start as rogue until lvl 3.

[Specter]

If you're gonna make a living out of a bow, it's a matter of when, not if, you're gonna take Sharpshooter. I say take it at 5th level: at least the DPR calculations show that it's worth it. Alert can wait until you're actually an Assassin.

A good final build is Rogue 8/Ranger 12. All the goodies and all the ASIs you need for two feats and good stats.

[jaappleton]

To be brutally honest? For Ranger, even the Revised version? Don't go past level 6 or 7. Its just not worth it to go further.

Lots of Rangers want 3rd level Ranger spells. Specifically Lightning Arrow. In actuality, you're better off NOT doing that, and instead multiclassing into Cleric. Tempest, specifically. You gain access to all the Cleric spells, and you're better off maximizing the 2nd level spell Shatter than you are casting Lightning Arrow. Plus you get the lovely spell Bless, so partner with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

[Corran]

Dont remeber everything the revised ranger gets, but starting with ranger and going up to ranger 5 for extra attack (and sharpshooter along the way), then hitting 3 levels of rogue for cunning action and assassinate and then all the way up to ranger 11 for that 11th stalker's ability (that will make up for stacking sharpshooter with assassinating), grabbing wis save prof somewhere along the way. Did I say ranger 11? I meant 13. Stalkers get greater invisibility at that level, which you really want to have, being an archer (SS) and a rogue (cunning action hide).
So, ranger5 -> ranger5/rogue3 -> ranger13/rogue3, would probably be my plan for up to character level 16. After that, not sure, but if sticking with one of those classes and not going for another, I think rogue is the better choice, so for example it could end up as a ranger13/rogue7 build.

[Jaxxen]

It's not so much the spells I'm concerned about with the ranger its the lvl 15 ability the ranger gets that makes the enemies have to reroll if they hit once a turn. The level 11 ability stalkers flurry gives me a free reroll on sharpshooter once a turn as well. I don't understand the starting as a ranger as opposed to rogue that has been mentioned, rogue gets 4 skills at first level only if you start as a rogue not multiclassed into it from ranger per the PHB (if im wrong on that please let me know! :).

[Corran]

It's not so much the spells I'm concerned about with the ranger its the lvl 15 ability the ranger gets that makes the enemies have to reroll if they hit once a turn.
You shouldn't underestimate spells. Greater invisibility is great combining with the -5/+10 of sharpshooter, as it will give you advantage and increase significantly your dpr. The best part comes from combining invisibility with your cunning action which allows you to hide with just a bonus action after you attack. Combined with a good stealth skill, this will make you untargetable to attacks most of the time, as simply enemies wont know where you are, and they will just have to guess (or more likely focus on your other teammates and leave you alone to deal your excellent dpr with advantage). Will also save you against most of the spells that target saving throws. Also, pass without trace, is another great spell that is useful for assassins. Dont remember what else stalkers get, but, all in all, dont underestimate spellcasting, even thought you are a dpr, there are enough spells to help you with various things, and a few of them are even detrimental to how your build performs.

Regarding the lvl15 ability (stalker's dodge if I remembe correctly), meh, it's good, but mostly for melee builds, I dont think it is that great on archers. (It uses your reaction to impose disadvantage against one incoming attack if I remember right). Dont get what you think is so great about this power, but maybe I misremember how it works.



The level 11 ability stalkers flurry gives me a free reroll on sharpshooter once a turn as well. I don't understand the starting as a ranger as opposed to rogue that has been mentioned, rogue gets 4 skills at first level only if you start as a rogue not multiclassed into it from ranger per the PHB (if im wrong on that please let me know! :).
Well, starting as a rogue will only get you one extra skill, than if starting a a ranger. So, 7 skills if you start as a rogue, 6 skills if you start as a ranger. The only other difference is that rogue gets you INT save prof, while ranger gets you STR save prof and 2 more HP. I suggested starting as a ranger, so that you get extra attack asap, @ level 5m but if 6 skills dont cover the range of skills that you want your character to be trained with, then start as a rogue to get that 7th skill proficiency. Be aware though, delaying extra attack is not a good idea, particularly if you have taken sharpshooter.

[Specter]

It's not so much the spells I'm concerned about with the ranger its the lvl 15 ability the ranger gets that makes the enemies have to reroll if they hit once a turn. The level 11 ability stalkers flurry gives me a free reroll on sharpshooter once a turn as well. I don't understand the starting as a ranger as opposed to rogue that has been mentioned, rogue gets 4 skills at first level only if you start as a rogue not multiclassed into it from ranger per the PHB (if im wrong on that please let me know! :).

If you start as a rogue, you get 4 skills and DEX-INT save proficiencies. Later, multiclassing ranger, you get another skill.

If you start as a ranger, you get 3 skills and DEX-WIS saving throws. Later, multiclassing rogue, you get another skill.

Don't worry too much about very high-level abilities. Instead, think about getting the essential as quickly as possible. The essential would be 5 ranger levels and 3 assassin levels. After that, it's a matter of what works and how fast it works. You don't want to hold on to ranger 15 when rogue 7 gives you uncanny dodge (which is a much better and earlier ability) along with evasion.

I still think ranger 12/rogue 8 is as good as it gets.

[jaappleton]

The 15th level ability...

A good ability. Solid.

However; You need to consider the following:

What're the odds of you reaching that level? The odds of your character surviving that long, the campaign lasting that long, the group staying together that long?

Its a rare thing.

Just something to consider, thats all.

[Corran]

If you start as a rogue, you get 4 skills and DEX-INT save proficiencies. Later, multiclassing ranger, you get another skill.

If you start as a ranger, you get 3 skills and DEX-WIS saving throws. Later, multiclassing rogue, you get another skill.
Wait, does UA stalker start with both dex and wis save proficiency? I think he gets wis save prof at 7th level, and not starting with it, but maybe we are talking about different UA's?


I still think ranger 12/rogue 8 is as good as it gets.
An ASI over greater invisibility for only a couple time per day. Sure, I can buy it.
So with the 12/8 split this guy has 5 ASI's/feats, how do we make the most of them?
2 dex bumps and with sharpshooter a given, which are the rest two?

*I just realized that this character's assassination rounds are not much different comparing to his normal rounds, in term of damage (ie not many dice to be doubled, most of the damage comes from static bonuses anyway), and sine he already has a good initiative, maybe he can skip alert, for something like, say, actor, that will pair well with a good charisma score due to halfelf and if equiped with the right skill proficiencies?

[sir_argo]

I have a particular interest in this thread as I'm joining a new campaign and making a Ranger / Rogue. The DM does not allow multiclassing until 3rd level, so I can't start as a level 1 rogue and then switch to ranger immediately.

My plan had been to go human variant. The Dark Stalker gets Darkvision at 3rd level, making the extra feat at 1st level more attractive to me.

So Ranger 1, with sharpshooter feat
Stay Ranger through 5th to get the extra attack.
Switch to Rogue for 5 levels to get the feat (Alert) and 3d6 sneak damage
Back to Ranger permanently.

So Ranger 1-5 / Rogue 1-5 / Ranger 6+

Other than that, I'm going to monitor this thread for ideas.

[DeAnno]

With regards to Assassin, remember Natural Explorer on Ranger 1 gives you the half of Assassinate that doesn't involve surprise already.

Also, if neither the spells of Ranger nor Cleric tickle your fancy, 3-4 levels of Fighter eventually to get Action Surge and Superiority Dice among other things really improve Sharpshooter builds.

[Jaxxen]

Well essentially as it played out in my head at approx. level 8 the character would look something like this.

Rogue 1 ( 1d6 sneak attack, dex/int saves, 4 skills expertise in stealth and perception) 1 extra skill from half elf (half drow variant loses 1 skill for drow magic iirc from SCAG)

Drop into ranger for level 2 (PHB multiclass only allows you 1 skill choice since you're multiclassing)

Ranger 2 (3) gives me Fighting style Archery plus the other ranger goodies from UA natural explorer etc.

Ranger 3 (4) gives me underdark scout gives me an extra attack on my first turn as well as +10 movement on said turn as well.

Ranger 4(5) Sharpshooter feat

Ranger 5(6) Extra attack

Rogue 2(7) Rogue level 2 stuff

Rogue 3(8) Assassin archetype.

So at level 8 if my math is right without magic weapons first turn would look thusly
Advantage on iniative (ranger)
Bonus action hunters mark
if all attacks hit with sharpshooter feat that's 30(60 for crit and if they hit its auto crit see assassin lvl 3) with 6d8+18 +3d6 (huntersmark) + 2d6 (SA)

Second turn would be a bit different but even then still looking at 2d8+6 +2d6(HM) +2d6(SA) +1d10 hail of thorns. Though sharpshooter is iffy on this turn due to no advantage on attacks. Which is why the half drow for Faerie fire since that does allow advantage on ranged attacks and or cunning action I guess. Admittedly second turn onward requires some set up to continue dishing out the hurt.

My math maybe a little off but that's about what my thought process was.

[Biggstick]

Well essentially as it played out in my head at approx. level 8 the character would look something like this.

Rogue 1 ( 1d6 sneak attack, dex/int saves, 4 skills expertise in stealth and perception) 1 extra skill from half elf (half drow variant loses 1 skill for drow magic iirc from SCAG)

Drop into ranger for level 2 (PHB multiclass only allows you 1 skill choice since you're multiclassing)

Ranger 2 (3) gives me Fighting style Archery plus the other ranger goodies from UA natural explorer etc.

Ranger 3 (4) gives me underdark scout gives me an extra attack on my first turn as well as +10 movement on said turn as well.

Ranger 4(5) Sharpshooter feat

Ranger 5(6) Extra attack

Rogue 2(7) Rogue level 2 stuff

Rogue 3(8) Assassin archetype.

So at level 8 if my math is right without magic weapons first turn would look thusly
Advantage on iniative (ranger)
Bonus action hunters mark
if all attacks hit with sharpshooter feat that's 30(60 for crit and if they hit its auto crit see assassin lvl 3) with 6d8+18 +3d6 (huntersmark) + 2d6 (SA)

Second turn would be a bit different but even then still looking at 2d8+6 +2d6(HM) +2d6(SA) +1d10 hail of thorns. Though sharpshooter is iffy on this turn due to no advantage on attacks. Which is why the half drow for Faerie fire since that does allow advantage on ranged attacks and or cunning action I guess. Admittedly second turn onward requires some set up to continue dishing out the hurt.

My math maybe a little off but that's about what my thought process was.

Critical Hits. (Page 196 PHB) When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attacks damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. To speed up play, you can roll all the damage dice at once. For example, if you score a critical hit with a dagger, roll 2d4 for the damage, rather then 1d4, and then add your relevant ability modifier. If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.

For someone building around the Critical Hit feature of the character, I'm not sure if you are actually understanding how Critical Hit damage is calculated. You only double damage dice, not damage modifiers.

Bonus Action: Hunter's Mark
Action: Attack action.
Attack 1: 2d8+3+10+2d6+4d6
Attack 2: 2d8+3+10+2d6
Underdark Scout Attack: 2d8+3+10+2d6
Movement: Hopefully somewhere different then you started, and away from melee enemies.

Average surprise round damage: 94

This damage is obviously based on the assumption that you hit every attack. The damage calculations are a bit more then I'd want to do if you factor in hit chance, but it would be lower if you did.

Action: Attack action.
Attack 1: 1d8+3+10+1d6+2d6
Attack 2: 1d8+3+10+1d6
Movement: Hopefully somewhere different then you started, and away from melee enemies.
Bonus Action: Hide action.

Average 1st round damage: 49

We are assuming you win Initiative here, otherwise you don't have the guaranteed Sneak Attack damage dice to add in. The average damage for a 1st round (or any other round) in which you don't have sneak attack would be 42. This is of course based on the idea that you hit every attack. Actual DPR is going to be lower, as you obviously won't hit every attack.
What you really should look into to up your Surprise Round damage is finding an application poison that has damage dice that can be multiplied. This will drastically increase your damage output.

[Specter]

Wait, does UA stalker start with both dex and wis save proficiency? I think he gets wis save prof at 7th level, and not starting with it, but maybe we are talking about different UA's?


An ASI over greater invisibility for only a couple time per day. Sure, I can buy it.
So with the 12/8 split this guy has 5 ASI's/feats, how do we make the most of them?
2 dex bumps and with sharpshooter a given, which are the rest two?

*I just realized that this character's assassination rounds are not much different comparing to his normal rounds, in term of damage (ie not many dice to be doubled, most of the damage comes from static bonuses anyway), and sine he already has a good initiative, maybe he can skip alert, for something like, say, actor, that will pair well with a good charisma score due to halfelf and if equiped with the right skill proficiencies?

Yep, I mistook. STR and DEX. Sigh. Start rogue.

The other ASI's could go to Resilient (CON) (to be proficient in four saves), Alert, Skulker, Lucky or even Tough. That's assuming no WIS bumps, which would be good too.

I agree that Assassin is half redundant for revised ranger. Arcane Trickster could give him more illusions and buffs along with a higher caster level, and Mastermind would grant bonus action help, which is also timelessly good for team tactics.