How broken is psionic recharge?

[frogglesmash]

How broken would it be to allow all manifesting classes to recharge power points at a rate of 1PP per round provided they succeed on a DC 20 concentration check and do nothing but meditate for the duration? i.e. Make psionic recharge tricks standard, or possibly make them available at the cost of 1 feat.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to accomplish anything specific, I'm just curious.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It'd be pretty broken, compared to classes that need to rest. Compared to classes that don't need to rest (initiators, say), it's not that broken, but they tend to be a tier or two lower to begin with.

To put it another way: A War Mind with recharge isn't that broken compared to a warblade (let alone a Divine Mind). A psion with recharge is pretty broken compared to a sorcerer (let alone a Mind Mage).

[sleepyphoenixx]

It'd be just as broken as letting spellcasters get their spells back just by meditating for a minute.
Managing your daily resources is one of the few limits placed on spellcasters/manifesters. Removing those is a significant buff - a buff they certainly don't need.

It's even worse on psionics considering that a properly built psion can spend most of his pp pool in a single fight if he doesn't care about conserving them, to considerable effect.

[jywu98]

Might as well rule that PP is per encounter and not per day at this point. Whether it's broken or not really depends on what your player does with basically inifinite PP.

[Psyren]

I'll answer your curiosity with one of my own - why do you think casters need a buff?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider allowing this, but only up to 1/4th the total PP for that character and the recharged PP can only be used at ML/2, meaning you are restricted to your lower level powers. I would allow spellcasters to recover a spell up to half their maximum spell level at CL/2 and it takes 1 min/round level of meditation.

Out of combat healing becomes free. Both psionics and spellcasting have low level healing abilities that can now be used endlessly. They are still heavily restricted from spaming their most powerful abilities, but low level abilities can now be used without much restriction. Any buff measured in hours of duration is now free.

This favors wizards over sorcerers (extra low level spell slots are worth less).

[frogglesmash]

I'll answer your curiosity with one of my own - why do you think casters need a buff?

I don't, as I said, I'm just curious.

[Flickerdart]

At 1 PP/round, it's far too fast. A level 20 psion gets 343 PP from his class, and 100+ more from a high Intelligence. If he could recharge 1 PP per round, he could top up 600 PP after an hour of rest. That's 50% more PP than his maximum.

I would allow 1 PP per minute for the cost of a feat that has a bunch of prerequisites. An hour of meditation yields 60 PP, which is not nothing, but certainly not fast enough to pull off without a substantial break in the action.

[Stryyke]

I experimented with a similar situation, where I let them regenerate 1 point + INT modifier per hour. I think it was appropriate. They couldn't regenerate all their points without sleeping, but it really helped when there were several encounters during the day.

Of course if your goal is to allow them to regenerate all their points in a day, 1 point per minute will get it done slowly, 5 hours or so at max points. INT modifier per minute would reward a high INT, but you will end up with full regen in an hour.

You could, of course, pick an amount of time you think is appropriate, and just let them regen a % of their max per hour/minute/round/whatever you want. For instance, If I thought that regenerating all of your power points in the course of 10 hours was appropriate, I would just have them regen 10% of their max per hour. Unless you are doing long stretches with lots of combat, though, regen should be either really slow, or not at all. Budgeting points is part of using the character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's pretty bad. Psions are probably the best class in the game at going nova. Allowing them to recharge in a few minutes means they can nuke every fight with a flurry of high-power (Linked) Powers.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's pretty bad. Psions are probably the best class in the game at going nova. Allowing them to recharge in a few minutes means they can nuke every fight with a flurry of high-power (Linked) Powers.
Small note: Dominant Ideal ardents are better at going nova than psions.

Medium note: For nova-enabled full-manifester builds, pp recharge is broken, but I think a few people are forgetting that low-power manifesting classes exist (I seem to be the only one to address them, so far, though they show the most interesting change under the proposed recharge rule). Divine Mind, Lurk, Psychic Rogue, Fist of Zuoken, Zerth Cenobite, War Mind - these classes are quite balanced with pp recharge, some hopping up a tier, but not into tier 1 or 2. Psychic Warriors may hit tier 2, with fully-augmented psionic lion's charges every round, on top of their other buffs.

[Soranar]

It would be fine with manifesters that have a very limited PP pool

-psychic warrior
-psychic rogue
-lurk
-warmind

It becomes completely broken with manifesting class that completely relies on manifesting

[ZamielVanWeber]

It would be fine with manifesters that have a very limited PP pool

-psychic warrior
-psychic rogue
-lurk
-warmind

It becomes completely broken with manifesting class that completely relies on manifesting

Other people have said this and let me agree with them. The thing is, by mid level a single classes psion/wilder/erudite is not going to run out of PP unless they nova insanely. The same cannot necessarily be said of the "partial manifesters "

I think leaving this as a feat (but weaker) with a cap on the PP you can have (so the feat had PP Pool 200 or less as a requisite for example).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Other people have said this and let me agree with them. The thing is, by mid level a single classes psion/wilder/erudite is not going to run out of PP unless they nova insanely. The same cannot necessarily be said of the "partial manifesters "

I think leaving this as a feat (but weaker) with a cap on the PP you can have (so the feat had PP Pool 200 or less as a requisite for example).

While I agree that partial Manifesters can benefit (and be balanced in doing so) and Full Manifesters certainly don't need it, a feat that you can disqualify yourself for by taking levels in the class you took the feat for initially is bad design. Also doesn't prevent Full Manifesters from abusing it at low levels. It be better to have Pre-Req to the effect of "Has levels in any of the following; [insert list] but none of the following; [insert list]. If you ever take a level in a class listed here, this feat stops functioning. " Maybe a bit more elegantly than that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

While I agree that partial Manifesters can benefit (and be balanced in doing so) and Full Manifesters certainly don't need it, a feat that you can disqualify yourself for by taking levels in the class you took the feat for initially is bad design. Also doesn't prevent Full Manifesters from abusing it at low levels. It be better to have Pre-Req to the effect of "Has levels in any of the following; [insert list] but none of the following; [insert list]. If you ever take a level in a class listed here, this feat stops functioning. " Maybe a bit more elegantly than that.

I admit I was talking a short break from walking so that was out there. Maybe if the feat was simply better for other guys? Maybe cap the regrowth at ML x Con mod. A lot of the partials care more about Con than psion/wilder/erudite/ardent so that might help. (Maybe Str? Would probably work better but feels weird).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I admit I was talking a short break from walking so that was out there. Maybe if the feat was simply better for other guys? Maybe cap the regrowth at ML x Con mod. A lot of the partials care more about Con than psion/wilder/erudite/ardent so that might help. (Maybe Str? Would probably work better but feels weird).
I think the easiest option is to hard-code the amount restored based on class and level. That is, simply write up a table, with every psionic class, and the amount of pp restored per minute for each. An inverse relationship between (say) base pp and pp restored is too difficult to use and balance.

[Kamai]

I think you can make it fair by adding a restriction where you cannot bring your PP higher than your manifester level. That'll let you get one full power spell, or a couple of lower level buffs (which I think will usually benefit the partial manifesters more). As a 0 prerequisite feat, you're giving a full caster a different variant of a wizard's bonded item (less versatility, potentially more uses in return).

Edit: I realized that I put a Pathfinder power comparison in what's likely a 3.5 thread. In 3.5, I'd put a small requirement on it (maybe base Will +4 or Iron Will feat).

[Rerednaw]

Depends on the game.

And Psions already can do so if built with the right options. Takes a ton of feats but it is doable.

My game where I was playing:
No wealth.
No time for crafting.
No npc spellcasting.
Expect to go non stop for days. (level 1 was 11 encounters over 4 days no sleep).

In that kind of game I'd allow casters to have a recovery mechanic. Not for all spells, some sort of compromise, like full-round action for a spell slot at 1 r/spell level not to exceed say your bonus spells between encounters.

[Endarire]

The OP's proposed method is akin to using bestow power for 3.5-legal PP recharge but with less required investment.

I agree with the crowd that says that full casters and manifesters don't need a boost. If you feel comfortable giving certain classes this ability as a class feature (though perhaps at a different recharge rate), go ahead.