Is it possible?

[Stryyke]

Is it possible to create a viable character that only uses shuriken? Even with poisons, you'll never be able to overcome even modest DR. Contact poisons are really the only option.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Weapon base damage is almost completely irrelevant for any character who focuses on it. You get most of your damage from bonus damage anyway.
You get your str modifier in any case, there are ways to add your dex modifier too, things like sneak attack and anything that boosts it, Knowledge Devotion, Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The biggest limitation on shuriken use isn't the 1d2 damage, it's the low 10ft range increment.

[Zaq]

Do Fire Shuriken count?

[Malimar]

d2 Crusader?

[ATHATH]

I think that Warblade has access to a stance or maneuver that lets it boost damage by large amounts with concentration checks. Someone made an Iron Chef build based around that, Risen Matyr, an empty (or positoxin-filled) poison ring, and cranking their concentration check up as high as they could without resorting to cheese. It could two-shot CR-appropriate enemies at higher levels, IIRC. The guy mentioned that you could swap the poison ring out for something else if you'd like to.

[Stryyke]

Weapon base damage is almost completely irrelevant for any character who focuses on it. You get most of your damage from bonus damage anyway.
You get your str modifier in any case, there are ways to add your dex modifier too, things like sneak attack and anything that boosts it, Knowledge Devotion, Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The biggest limitation on shuriken use isn't the 1d2 damage, it's the low 10ft range increment.

Interesting. I ask because I am doing a catfolk scout build, and I really wanted to just use returning shuriken. So far, at 4th level, I can see maybe doing up to 3d6 + 1d2 + STR mod damage, but that's barely useful. What other ways would you find to boost potential damage, aside from poisons, of course.

[ATHATH]

I made a ninja-edit, by the way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Interesting. I ask because I am doing a catfolk scout build, and I really wanted to just use returning shuriken. So far, at 4th level, I can see maybe doing up to 3d6 + 1d2 + STR mod damage, but that's barely useful. What other ways would you find to boost potential damage, aside from poisons, of course.

Shuriken are treated as ammunition - you can't enchant them with Returning and they have a 50% chance to break after hitting.

For increasing damage Knowledge Devotion (CC) is always useful. There's also Assassin's Stance (ToB) & Craven (CoR) for 2d6 + level (you can either get a level in swordsage or spend feats), Deadeye (DComp), the 1st level fighter ACF from DotU (if your dm allows you to take it as a non-drow. It's in the section for racial acfs, but nothing in the acf itself requires you to be drow).

There's more but that's all the options i know from memory.

[Stryyke]

Hmm. Let me pose this: Why should it not be possible to enchant shuriken with returning? 50% break chance is understandable against constructs, I suppose, but against flesh? I know that's a question for my GM, but hypothetically, it doesn't make much sense. A steel shuriken being damaged by flesh? C'mon. That's just silly. One of the things that GMs like to pick on is people carrying around 50 shuriken. Having 3 returning shuriken solves that with no real potential for breaking anything.

[Malimar]

Shuriken are treated as ammunition - you can't enchant them with Returning and they have a 50% chance to break after hitting.
50% chance to break after missing. 100% chance to break after hitting.

Ammunition
Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

[Uncle Pine]

Shuriken Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)

Fire Shuriken is a nice 2nd level Wu Jen/Assassin spell from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium, the reasons being that the base damage of these shuriken is 3d6, they are permanent and can't be dispelled (the duration of the spell is Instantaneous) and you can apply metamagic to it if you wish so. Even without turning it up to eleven applying all sort of energy admixtures and fell drain and everything else, this makes fire shurikens quite versatile. If you decide to not meddle with metamagic and/or not be a spellcaster, you can also buy a custom at-will (or /day) magic item to imbue all your shurikens during downtime for a few thousands gp.

[Allanimal]

Hmm. Let me pose this: Why should it not be possible to enchant shuriken with returning? 50% break chance is understandable against constructs, I suppose, but against flesh? I know that's a question for my GM, but hypothetically, it doesn't make much sense. A steel shuriken being damaged by flesh? C'mon. That's just silly. One of the things that GMs like to pick on is people carrying around 50 shuriken. Having 3 returning shuriken solves that with no real potential for breaking anything.

Because the rules:

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.


When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, shuriken, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, bullet, or shuriken that hits is destroyed.

Now it is definitely worth asking your DM for special shuriken that are treated in all ways as throwing weapons, but I would think they would have to look at the cost such an item.

[Deox]

Shuriken Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)

Fire Shuriken is a nice 2nd level Wu Jen/Assassin spell from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium, the reasons being that the base damage of these shuriken is 3d6, they are permanent and can't be dispelled (the duration of the spell is Instantaneous) and you can apply metamagic to it if you wish so. Even without turning it up to eleven applying all sort of energy admixtures and fell drain and everything else, this makes fire shurikens quite versatile. If you decide to not meddle with metamagic and/or not be a spellcaster, you can also buy a custom at-will (or /day) magic item to imbue all your shurikens during downtime for a few thousands gp.

Just to add to this, one of my favorite combos is to use Elemental Substitution + Creaking Cacophony + Fire Shuriken.

[Psyren]

PF Ninja with Flurry of Stars + some method of one-sided concealment (e.g. Greater Invis or Smoke Bomb + Fogcutting Lenses), perhaps with Startoss Style.

[Stryyke]

Because the rules:
Now it is definitely worth asking your DM for special shuriken that are treated in all ways as throwing weapons, but I would think they would have to look at the cost such an item.

Oh. I'm not arguing that it IS the case. I'm just wondering how someone could break the game by using the same 3 shuriken over and over, vs 50 of them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oh. I'm not arguing that it IS the case. I'm just wondering how someone could break the game by using the same 3 shuriken over and over, vs 50 of them.

They're using the rules for ammunition, so they cost only 1/50 of the normal price to enhance. Note that you don't actually want that to be removed, it's one of the best things about shuriken.

[Blu]

I see that 3.5 as really bad rulling regarding thrown weapons. I mean, a guy with a bow can simply enchant the bow and bum, is ammo is counted as magic even using regular old arrows, and with a Quiver of Anariel they can even not put any +1 enhancement bonus on the weapons besides the first.

Also count the fact that most thrown weapons have small range.

Even with a generous DM that gives you back the gold you are expending on your enchanted shuriken you would still need to wait time for the surikens to be crafted(i do not expect every merchant to have +5~+10 shuriken on store).

I think the solution would be to talk to the DM to have something like a glove, gaunlet or such that could be enchanted like a regular weapon to pass the magic to the surikens, like a bow and obviously the glove would not count towards your item slots or something.

[Stryyke]

Interesting idea.

[Blu]

Maybe even a shuriken version of the quiver of anariel if he's generous.

[Gnaeus]

There's a path of war stance that gives you endless ammunition if you have one on your person, and if it's thrown the phantom ammo has the same enhancements as the thing it's copying.

[Deox]

Also of note - Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC) allows you to create +1 javelins made of force.

Could you perhaps work with the DM to fluff them as shuriken instead?

[Stryyke]

Also of note - Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC) allows you to create +1 javelins made of force.

Could you perhaps work with the DM to fluff them as shuriken instead?

I think he may just go for that. Thanks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Weapon base damage is almost completely irrelevant for any character who focuses on it. You get most of your damage from bonus damage anyway.
Basically this. Using a 1d2 shruiken instead of a 1d6 javelin loses you an average of 2 damage/shot. That's pretty much nothing, when you consider you're adding Strength, Skirmish, Knowledge Devotion (potentially, but recommended-- a Scout wants to dip Cleric for Travel Devotion anyway), and so on.

Besides, Shruiken are ammunition. It's pretty cheap to buy a few different varieties and a Wand of Magic Weapon for when you run into things with DR.

[ViperMagnum357]

If your DM will not allow a shuriken version of the Force Javelin gloves, you can instead grab the Sense Weakness feat from Draconomicon-it will allow you to ignore the first 5 points of damage reduction or hardness. Not nearly as good as Shadowstriking on a single weapon, but it will allow you to slice off DR from every attack without enchanting all that ammo, and you can also cut 5 points off DR X/-, something most feat starved martial builds still need to contend with.

[EvulOne]

Aside from magic items there are a number of feats that could help such as Point Blank Shot, Brutal throw and Power Throw so you can forgo Dex for Strength.

[Stryyke]

Aside from magic items there are a number of feats that could help such as Point Blank Shot, Brutal throw and Power Throw so you can forgo Dex for Strength.

LOL. Ummmm. My scout has a 20 DEX, and an 8 STR. I'm not eager to make STR a prime attribute. Good thought, though.

[Gruftzwerg]

The biggest limitation on shuriken use isn't the 1d2 damage, it's the low 10ft range increment.


d2 Crusader?

The solution is a lvl 18 DWK D2 Crusader with the Distant Shot epic feat (Prerequisite: Far Shot (PH) , Point Blank Shot (PH) , Spot 20 ranks, DEX 25).
The feat can be than selected @ lvl 18 with enough ranks in Spot = unlimted range (as long as you can spot it) with no penalty.

[Dagroth]

The Master Thrower PrC has a couple of neat tricks you might want to look at.

See if you can get your DM to allow the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC re-fluffed to work for thrown weapons.

As for your ammo breaking... think about this. You can make Shuriken out of Adamantine... and they'll still break every time they hit their target.

With Quick Draw, one can throw Daggers just as fast as one can throw Shuriken. Talk to your GM about you buying Shuriken at the price of Daggers and enchanting them as thrown weapons rather than Ammo.

[King539]

Using a 1d2 shruiken instead of a 1d6 javelin loses you an average of 2 damage/shot. T

*Triggered.*

2.5, actually.

[Grod_The_Giant]

*Triggered.*

2.5, actually.
1d2 averages to 1.5, 1d6 to 3.5.

[King539]

1d2 averages to 1.5, 1d6 to 3.5.

I was JUST about to correct that, and feel dumb.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was JUST about to correct that, and feel dumb.
No worries, mate.