Cost for a Ring of Greater Invis.?

[skywalker]

Not much else to say, I'm just looking for opinions on how much a ring of greater invisibility should cost. I worked it out in the mid-30k range using just the item creation rules, although I'm not entirely sure that was the right math. I'm also, however, looking for other's opinions on game balance and price.

So what do you wise people think?

[Ikkitosen]

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp for a wondrous item.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.


4 x 7 x 2000 x 4 = 224,000gp.

[Jack_Simth]

Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp for a wondrous item.

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.


4 x 7 x 2000 x 4 = 224,000gp.
Which puts it into the realm of an Epic Item.

However, the *4 multiplier in there is only due to it being a continuous item; the 2,000 in there is due to it being continuous as well. Command-Word is listed as 1800 base. As use-activated, that would be 4*7*1,800=50,400 gp.

Which is a bad price for it - by those guidelines, the regular Ring of Invisibility would only cost 10,800 as Command-Word, or 24,000 gp as Continuous (which you can't really do, as it ends when you attack), rather than its book value of 20,000.

At-will Greater Invisibility is worth considerably more than guidelines suggest.

[Funkyodor]

Um, a normal ring is 20,000 you say? That sounds right. 2 (spell level)x 3 (caster level) x 2,000 x 2 (Duration in minutes) = 20,000 gp price.

Edit: The normal ring of Invis is continuous because it does not use the normal spell to determine duration, otherwise it would only last 3 min. before requiring another activation.

[Evil DM Mark3]

It is a bit like the mythical ring of true strike. Rules say one thing, all wordly logic and sanity say another.

[Ikkitosen]

However, the *4 multiplier in there is only due to it being a continuous item; the 2,000 in there is due to it being continuous as well. Command-Word is listed as 1800 base. As use-activated, that would be 4*7*1,800=50,400 gp.

True. You'd have a 7 round duration between activations in this case.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

50.000 gp is a good price for use-activated ring of greater invisibility. After all, permanent see invisibility costs 11.000 gp if you use scrolls to do it-and anyone can have it.

[Draz74]

Based on how the normal Ring of Invisibility is 20,000 gp, I'd say the Ring of Greater Invisibility should be 80,000 gp. Four times the cost for a spell that is similar, but twice as high in level. (Magic item creation costs are roughly parabolic.)

80,000 also seems balanced to my intuition. Compare it with other items of similar value, such as the Robe of the Archmagi.

[Saph]

50,000-80,000 sounds about right to me. Permanent Greater Invisibility is pretty much an automatic win against anything without a way to detect you.

That said, this runs into the problem that at the levels where you can afford to drop 80k on an item, pretty much everything DOES have some way of detecting invisible creatures. But that's an issue with items of high-powered spells in general.

- Saph

[Krellen]

50,000 is too little. For that matter, so is 80,000. The effect of continuous greater invisibility is, essentially, an always-on 50% miss chance with fringe benefits.

Compare to the major cloak of displacement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofDisplacementMajor), which grants a similar effect - the 50% miss chance - for 15 rounds a day. It's price tag is 50,000.

Looking at just the pure mechanics of the 50% miss chance, this proposed ring would need to cost 48,000,000 to provide an always-on, all-day 50% miss chance - the cost of the 960 major cloaks of displacement required to duplicate the same effect - and this is ignoring the fringe benefits of invisibility.

Overall, my ruling would be simple: No. This item cannot exist.

[Telonius]

The 50% miss chance would not necessarily always be on. Glitterdust and See Invisibility could both defeat it.

Compare this to a Ring of Blink. It also grants a 50% miss chance to creatures that don't have "See Invisibility" active. (Granted, your attacks also have a 20% miss chance, and your movement is slowed). It's command-word activated. The cost for a Ring of Blink is 27,000 gp.

Advantages of the Ring of Greater Invisibility: you're undetectable unless see invis is active, no movement loss, no miss chance on your own attacks. Disadvantages of the Ring of Greater Invisibility: you can't walk through walls or attack ethereal things, and saying the command word might give away your location. Given that, I'd say that 50,000-80,000 sounds about right, for a command word Ring of Greater Invisibility. For a continuous-use ring ... 224,000 sounds reasonable.

[greenknight]

After all, permanent see invisibility costs 11.000 gp if you use scrolls to do it-and anyone can have it.

Not true. See Invisibility is one of those spells you can only make permanent with regards to yourself. So you'd need to be able to cast both See Invisibility and Permanency. It might be possible via UMD, but even higher level characters might not qualify. This means there's a lot of creatures who won't have it.

I think Ikkitosen has used the correct formula for a continuous use ring by the RAW. I'd be inclined to reduce that a bit to maybe 150,000gp, since at the kind of level you can afford it there would be a number of creatures around which can see you while invisible.


Command-Word is listed as 1800 base. As use-activated, that would be 4*7*1,800=50,400 gp.

That's fine for a command word activated item, but referring to the example (Cape of the Mountebank), we can see that's a one use per day item. Which should also apply to the ring, compensating for the much lower price.

[Jack_Simth]

Um, a normal ring is 20,000 you say? That sounds right. 2 (spell level)x 3 (caster level) x 2,000 x 2 (Duration in minutes) = 20,000 gp price.

Edit: The normal ring of Invis is continuous because it does not use the normal spell to determine duration, otherwise it would only last 3 min. before requiring another activation.

2*3*2000*2=24,000, not 20,000. Still doesn't match the Core Ring of Invisibility. And I mentioned that total, too.

The standard Ring of Invisibility simply says it is "as the spell". Depending on how the DM reads it, you DO need to activate every three minutes.



That's fine for a command word activated item, but referring to the example (Cape of the Mountebank), we can see that's a one use per day item. Which should also apply to the ring, compensating for the much lower price.
You appear to be the first to mention putting a daily limit on it. The example using the Cape for making a custom item is an example of an item with a daily number of charges. Yeah, if you can only activate the ring once per day, a Command-word (standard-action) price of 10,080 gp isn't bad; you have to know exactly when you'll need to use it, so it's pretty much fine (at least, compared to a Wand or Scroll... which the Rogue who REALLY wants the ability can use via UMD). It's the at-will nature of most models that breaks the particular spell - most combat doesn't last seven rounds. Activating the ring every 7th round means constant Greater Invisibility - and you won't normally need to spend a precious Combat Action to make it work.

[greenknight]

The standard Ring of Invisibility simply says it is "as the spell". Depending on how the DM reads it, you DO need to activate every three minutes.

That would make it use activated, using the formula caster level x spell level x 2,000gp (12,000gp). I'm more inclined to believe it's meant to be a continuous item with a slightly reduced price.


You appear to be the first to mention putting a daily limit on it.

The Command Word formula you used includes a daily limit, so I'm merely following your idea. However, that is based on the number of uses per day. The full formula is:

(spell level x caster level x 1,800gp) / (5 / charges per day)

Plugging the numbers into the Cape of the Mountebank, we have (4*9*1800)/(5/1) = 12,960gp. That's a bit higher than the list price. However, if a Caster Level of 7 were used, then it would be 10,080gp - which is the listed price. Either they decided to just use the formula as a ballpark figure, or they made the Caster Level of the Cape a little higher than they should have (by accident or design). A Ring of Greater Invisibility would use (4*7*1800)/(5/1)= 10,080gp, if it's a one use per day Command Word item using a 7th level caster.


It's the at-will nature of most models that breaks the particular spell - most combat doesn't last seven rounds. Activating the ring every 7th round means constant Greater Invisibility - and you won't normally need to spend a precious Combat Action to make it work.

The problem is that Command Word items always seem to have a number of uses per day, unless they are also use activated or continuous use items, in which case the higher cost formula should be used. The price of a use activated ring (which could be activated every 7 rounds) would be 4 x 7 x 2000 = 56,000gp. The activation would count as a standard action in this case. Ikkitosen's maths are still correct if you want a continuous use item, which would have the advantage of not making you visible during the reactivation period.

[TheOOB]

A ring of greater invisibility is difficult to price. One the one hand, if your foes have any sort of see invisibility, true seeing, or blindsight (non of which are difficult to get by the time you can afford such an item) the item is near worthless, but if your opponents cant get those abilities the ring almost guarantees a win.

[Jack_Simth]

Umm.... Greenknight?

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.
(Emphasis added)

A standard Ring of Invisibility defaults to a Command-Word item - which puts the official estimate at a mere 10,800 gp, vs. the list price of 20,000 gp. As a Use-Activated Item (which doesn't make overly much sense - the only obvious way to use a ring is to put it on... but then it's always on, so should use the continuous pricing) would put it at 2*3*2,000 gp = 12,000 gp. Pricing it as a Continuous Item (which also doesn't make sense, as the spell ends when you attack something) puts it at 2*3*2,000*2=24,000 gp - which still doesn't match up. I'm more inclined to think that the game designers doubled the price from the Command-Word version and rounded a bit, due to the utility of at-will invisibility.

The daily limit is a special modifier on the estimation tables, not something included as part of the Command Word or Continuous segments. It reduces the cost only - a 1/day item is 1/5th "standard", a 2/day item is 2/5ths "standard" and so on - the at-will item is what the tables use as a base - daily limit being an option. Plus, there's counterexamples of items usable at will - the Hand of the Mage, for instance, follows guidelines exactly for a command-word Mage Hand spell at caster level 1 - and has no limit.

At once per day, a Ring of Greater Invisibility is a reasonable item for the 10,080 gp - a Wand of Greater Invisibility at caster level 7 costs 21,000 gp, and basically serves the same purpose for as long as you'll need it, and can get a lot of castings in a row in a pinch if needful.

[skywalker]

The DM to whom the question was posed at the table also simply ruled that it could not exist, and suggested a ring of blinking, instead. The original point was getting sneak attack as often as possible. The question's been bumping around in my head for a while since then and the original point is not what I was interested in. But the numbers quickly got waaaaaay too complicated. I was just wondering if there was a simple answer beyond "it does not exist." But I can see that's probably not going to be the case...

[greenknight]

Umm.... Greenknight?
(Emphasis added)

Proves nothing. The subsection on Ring Activation states it's either Command Word or Continuous.


A standard Ring of Invisibility defaults to a Command-Word item - which puts the official estimate at a mere 10,800 gp, vs. the list price of 20,000 gp. As a Use-Activated Item (which doesn't make overly much sense - the only obvious way to use a ring is to put it on... but then it's always on, so should use the continuous pricing) would put it at 2*3*2,000 gp = 12,000 gp. Pricing it as a Continuous Item (which also doesn't make sense, as the spell ends when you attack something) puts it at 2*3*2,000*2=24,000 gp - which still doesn't match up.

That's basically correct - no formula gives us the exact price of a Ring of Invisibility. The only question is whether the designers put a massive increase on the cost (for a use activated Ring) or a relatively small decrease to it. Of the two, I think the latter interpretation is the correct one.


The daily limit is a special modifier on the estimation tables, not something included as part of the Command Word or Continuous segments.

Not something for the Continuous or Use Activated segments, I agree. But the example Command Word item does include a use per day limit, so it seems appropriate there.


Plus, there's counterexamples of items usable at will - the Hand of the Mage, for instance, follows guidelines exactly for a command-word Mage Hand spell at caster level 1 - and has no limit.

Hand of the Mage is activated "at will", not Command Word, so it fits Use Activated better. But it doesn't really fit the formulas too well in any event.


At once per day, a Ring of Greater Invisibility is a reasonable item for the 10,080 gp - a Wand of Greater Invisibility at caster level 7 costs 21,000 gp, and basically serves the same purpose for as long as you'll need it, and can get a lot of castings in a row in a pinch if needful.

That's the figure I already arrived at for that.


I was just wondering if there was a simple answer beyond "it does not exist." But I can see that's probably not going to be the case...

I took a look through the Magic Item Compendium and found something which does give a Greater Invisibility effect. It's called a Ring of Vanishing and costs 30,000gp and activates as a Swift (Command Word) action. Not only does it block sight, it also works against blindsight, tremorsense, hearing and scent. On the downside, it's only usable 3 times per day, and each use only lasts 2 rounds.

[Jack_Simth]

Proves nothing. The subsection on Ring Activation states it's either Command Word or Continuous.

Yes - and it must be activated, and it as says it is "as the spell", and the spell has a duration, and the spell has a hefty limit - so it can't be continuous.


That's basically correct - no formula gives us the exact price of a Ring of Invisibility. The only question is whether the designers put a massive increase on the cost (for a use activated Ring) or a relatively small decrease to it. Of the two, I think the latter interpretation is the correct one.

I disagree. Constant Invisibility is too valuable. At-Will invisibility is very strong.


Not something for the Continuous or Use Activated segments, I agree. But the example Command Word item does include a use per day limit, so it seems appropriate there.It's appropriate to put it in, but it's not required for the activation mechanism - there's actually a fair number of items that do not have a daily limit when duplicating spells (Hand of the Mage, Helm of Telepathy's Detect Thoughts, Robe of Blending's Disguise Self, Hat of Disguise, Ring of Chameleon Power's Disguise Self effect, and so on). Yet they're priced by the command-word mechanism.

Mind you, a daily limit is about the only way to balance some spells - like Greater Invisibility, so it's definitely appropriate to put it in ... but most players don't when making items by the guidelines.


Hand of the Mage is activated "at will", not Command Word, so it fits Use Activated better. But it doesn't really fit the formulas too well in any event.
It fits the Command Word formulas perfectly - a 0th level spell, caster level 1. 0th level spells count as 0.5 for item purposes, so it's 0.5*1*1800=900 gp - which is the list price for the item. The Hat of Disguise is the exact same way, for a 1st level spell - caster level 1, spell level 1; 1*1*1800(command-word)=1,800 gp; which is the list price.

"At Will" means how often you can activate it, not how it's activated.


That's the figure I already arrived at for that.

Yeah - and I was mentioning that adding such a per-day limit is the only way to balance the item.

Catch being that players wanting such an item usually don't include a per-day limit.


I took a look through the Magic Item Compendium and found something which does give a Greater Invisibility effect. It's called a Ring of Vanishing and costs 30,000gp and activates as a Swift (Command Word) action. Not only does it block sight, it also works against blindsight, tremorsense, hearing and scent. On the downside, it's only usable 3 times per day, and each use only lasts 2 rounds.In other words, it's not really as the spell, so it can't really follow guidelines very well for a spell effect. The daily limit and two-rounds at a time is mostly what keeps it from being the ultimate assassin's tool.

What's your point?