Making a Soulbow build - thoughts?

[Suraydo]

Hey guys, been a lurker for a really long time and I wanted to finally get some 2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever opinions on a build I'm doing. No real meta build here, didn't go for a Powershot or a volley archer, just kinda this thing I'm working on.

DM is allowing just about everything 3.X and I asked him for one thing from Pathfinder simply because I couldn't find it in a sourcebook. DM is also allowing multiple PrCs at no exp penalty because he plays a meeeeean campaign. Also he doesn't really have limits for his world.

Books used
Dragonlance Campaign Setting for Silvanesti
Races of the Dragon for Dragonborn
Complete Warrior for the greatbow
PHB 1 for Ranger
PHB 2 for Duskblade
Dark Sun Campaign Setting, specifically the PrC appendix for PrC Soulknife.
Complete Psionics for Soulbow
Masters of the Wild for Deepwood Sniper (3.0 material)

Starting stats
16 DEX
18 DEX
7 CON
16 INT
16 WIS
6 CHA

Ranger 2/Duskblade 1/PrC Soulknife 2/Soulbow 3/Deepwood Sniper 1 so far

Started off as a Silvanesti Elf from the Dragonlance Setting, went into Dragonborn off the bat for races. IIRC this combo came out to +2 INT and a -2 to CHA, which I put into the starting stats already.

Started off as a Ranger, FE Dragon. Dragon hating dragonborn? Yeah I want that trope! Silvanesti are all high and mighty so he looks down on humans, but anyone who is dragonblood is immediate kinship (like the party Silverbrow sorcerer.)

Starting Feats
Point-Blank Shot because that's the defacto pre-req archer feat
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (greatbow) because I wanted a big bow
Toughness because I was level 1 with 6 HP. It actually saved my life the first 3 sessions, so all you nay-sayers who said Toughness sucks... I mean you're still right but it worked for me.

Went to Ranger 2, ranged weapon style so I got Rapid Shot. Think I got Track as a bonus at level 2 as well?

Level 3 went into Duskblade, took Wild Talent to get 2 power points to qualify for the PrC Mindknife, also to get Knowledge (psionics) as a class skill for it too.

Level 4 goes into the PrC Soulknife, +1 to CON to bring it up to 8. Autohypnosis for Soulbow later. Retrain Toughness into Weapon Focus (greatbow)

Level 5 is also PrC Soulknife. Now, something to bring up is, RAI, when you get a +1 soulknife enhancement bonus (not the special effect table) it also adds to your BAB, which is information you're gonna need to see the statistical roadmap later.

Level 6 is when I got into Soulbow, taking Woodland Archer for bonus and Practiced Mind Blade for level 6. PMB in this case only gives me two levels of effective Mindblade levels because the PrC is less levels. Which gives me more BAB.

Levels 7 and 8 are also Soulbow. Probably add +1 to WIS at level 8.

Level 9 is Deepwood Sniper, with Weapon Specialization (greatbow) for level 9 feat.

With this, my base arrows can be used with a d10 rather than a d8, plus WIS mod because of soularrow. From Mindblade I get Bane, Soulbow gets me Lucky and then Deepwood gets me Keen too.

The following attack stats go off of the assumption that by level 9, I have SOMETHING that will give me Splitting (whether it's an enchanted crystal bow to focus my soularrows through or a pair of mind blade gauntlets enchanted with it)

As far as attacks go, I've got this:

BAB 11/6/1
Average to hit in reality +18/+13/+8
Rapid shot makes this 16/16/11/6
Weapon Focus brings it back up to 17/17/12/7
Lucky allows missed shots rerolls
Keen crits on natural 19-20
Bane has +2 to hit and +2d6 damage against bane target
Bane brings to hits back up to 19/19/14/9 for 4 individual attacks
Splitting affects every arrow, turning it into 8 indivual attacks
Layout for 8 attacks 19/19/19/19/14/14/9/9 still with Lucky, Keen, Bane
Damage for each is 1d10 for base damage + 3 from wis for arrow damage + 3 from enhancement bonuses + 2d6 from Bane + 2 from Wep Spec

This is without any magic items except for something that gives me Splitting.

Thoughts? Recommendations for magic items? I don't really want to change classes or feats, because while I know for a fact that there are MUCH better builds out there, I have a particular taste for how it's turning out. Adding classes after level 9 is welcome, however. Might take Manyshot or something like that later on.


SUPER INDEPTH STATISTCAL ROADMAP FOLLOWS

Level 2 Ranger, BAB +2 Fort +3 Ref +3 Will +0

Feats
Point Blank Shot (level 1)
Exotic Weapon Prof (greatbow) (flaw)
Toughness (flaw)
Track (ranger)
Rapid Shot (ranger)

Level 3 Duskblade, BAB +3(+1 from class) Fort +5(+2 from class) Ref +3 Will +2(+2 from class)

Feats
Wild Talent (NEW) (level 3) unlocks 2 power points/psionics = PP

2+int mod SP (total of 5) Retrain craft (taxidermy) 5 ranks into Autohypnosis, 1 point into Autohypnosis (total rank of 6/6) and drop 4 into Knowledge (psionics) (rank 4/6)

Spells
0 levels - 3 slots, know all due to INT bonus, 4 known
1 levels - 2 slots, start with 2, learn additional 1 due to INT bonus, 3 known
Misc - dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, read magic 3+int mod (total of 6) times a day

Level 4 Dark Sun Prestige Soulknife, BAB +4 Fort +5 Ref +5(+2 from class) Will +5(+2 from class) 2PP

Feats
Retrain Toughness(flaw) into Weapon Focus(greatbow)(flaw)

+1 to CON

SP 5, retrain Craft into Autohypnosis (ranked 5/7), drop 2 into Autohypnosis (ranked 6/7)

Level 5 Dark Sun Prestige Soulknife, BAB +6/+1(+1 from class, +1 from mindblade enhancement) Fort +5 Ref +6(+1 from class) Will +6(+1 from class) 2PP

5 SP, drop 1 into Autohypnosis (ranked 8/8)

Level 6 Soulbow, BAB +7/+2(+0 from class, +1 from mindblade enhancement) Fort +5 Ref +8(+2 from class) Will +8(+2 from class)

Feats
Woodland Archer (soulbow)
Practiced Mind Blade (only gives 2 levels of DSP Soulknife, DM ruling) (NEW) (level 6)

4+int mod SP (7 SP)

MINDBLADE (effective level 4)

Level 7 Soulbow, BAB +8/+3(+1 from class) Fort +5 Ref +9(+1 from class) Will +9(+1 from class) 2PP

7 SP

Level 8 Soulbow BAB +10/+5 (+1 from class, +1 from arrow) Fort +6(+1 from class) Ref +9 Will +9 2PP

WIS +1 (up to 17)

FEATS
Far Shot (soulbow)

7 SP

Level 9 Deepwood Sniper BAB +11/+6/+1(+1 from class) Fort +6 Ref +11(+2 from class) Will +9 2PP

FEATS
Weapon Specialization (greatbow)

7 SP

[Dagroth]

I don't know enough about borked up Dark Suns stuff, but I can't imagine a special ability that gives you more BAB than your character level.

Other than that, you can't get Weapon Specialization unless you have 4 levels of Fighter or a specific PrC that gives you access to it.

Also, the Deepwood Sniper class gives you "Keen Edge" at level 6... but never says what that means. :smallconfused:

[Suraydo]

I don't know enough about borked up Dark Suns stuff, but I can't imagine a special ability that gives you more BAB than your character level.

Other than that, you can't get Weapon Specialization unless you have 4 levels of Fighter or a specific PrC that gives you access to it.

Also, the Deepwood Sniper class gives you "Keen Edge" at level 6... but never says what that means. :smallconfused:

Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows. That's why I said RAI, and not RAW. It's very vague and confusing and I asked the DM about it and he said roll with it.

There was a houserule where anyone can take weapon specialization mainly because nobody ever plays a fighter and it never sees use otherwise, that's all.

Deepwood Sniper has "Keen Arrows" at level 1 btw, not level 6. Keen edge I think is... keen +1 in essence. Or maybe that's the one that expands the crit multiplier. Probably in the MIC.

[Dagroth]

Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows. That's why I said RAI, and not RAW. It's very vague and confusing and I asked the DM about it and he said roll with it.

There was a houserule where anyone can take weapon specialization mainly because nobody ever plays a fighter and it never sees use otherwise, that's all.

Deepwood Sniper has "Keen Arrows" at level 1 btw, not level 6. Keen edge I think is... keen +1 in essence. Or maybe that's the one that expands the crit multiplier. Probably in the MIC.

Huh... Then again, you don't have soulknife levels...

And yes, Deepwood Sniper has "Keen Arrows" at level 1... the table also shows "Keen Edge" at level 6, but the text doesn't say anything about it.

Keen Edge is the spell to make weapons and ammunition Keen. It specifically wouldn't stack, and the class offers nothing for melee so I'm wondering why it's on the class' table.

[Suraydo]

Huh... Then again, you don't have soulknife levels...

And yes, Deepwood Sniper has "Keen Arrows" at level 1... the table also shows "Keen Edge" at level 6, but the text doesn't say anything about it.

Keen Edge is the spell to make weapons and ammunition Keen. It specifically wouldn't stack, and the class offers nothing for melee so I'm wondering why it's on the class' table.

RIGHT. IT'S PrC SOULKNIFE. Mindblade is the implement... I'll go back and change that. I have two levels in Soulknife, my bad.

Pulling the Deepwood Sniper stuff right from the book... also yields no information. Like it doesn't even exist. That's bizarre!

[The Viscount]

First off ask your DM if you can take Hidden Talent in place of Wild Talent so you can actually use your PP on something.

That Con is frightfully low. You're going to need something to protect you, because otherwise you are going to have a bad time. If you're starting late enough that' you're already in soulbow, consider transferring some of that strength. Alternatively, if you can fit in Zen Archery you can put less in strength. Deadeye would let you add dex along with wis to damage in 30 feet.

I'm confused as to why you're making such heavy investments in Greatbow. The mind arrow is not fired from a regular bow, so the damage die is set at 1d8.

More Soulbow levels would be beneficial if you expect anyone to close distance for its 4th level ability.

For that matter, why did you take deepwood sniper at all? You can get keen arrows from another level of soulknife.

Actually getting splitting onto your mind arrows is going to be difficult, the only way I can think of is with Kensai, which is another worthwhile class.

What's from pathfinder in this build?

EDIT: Looking over your build again, attacks aren't adding up. You begin your calculations with a BA of 11. You're a 9th level character, and Soulbow has average BAB. Even if you're adding its +1 for arrows to BAB you still are at only a 9. The line about Soulbow's mind arrow +x increasing BAB is not found in soulknife.

[digiman619]

Any chance you could convince your GM to use Pathfinder's Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/). It's a much better take on the concept and has an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/soulbolt) that lets you be a soulbow from level 1.

[Suraydo]

First off ask your DM if you can take Hidden Talent in place of Wild Talent so you can actually use your PP on something.

That Con is frightfully low. You're going to need something to protect you, because otherwise you are going to have a bad time. If you're starting late enough that' you're already in soulbow, consider transferring some of that strength. Alternatively, if you can fit in Zen Archery you can put less in strength. Deadeye would let you add dex along with wis to damage in 30 feet.

I'm confused as to why you're making such heavy investments in Greatbow. The mind arrow is not fired from a regular bow, so the damage die is set at 1d8.

More Soulbow levels would be beneficial if you expect anyone to close distance for its 4th level ability.

For that matter, why did you take deepwood sniper at all? You can get keen arrows from another level of soulknife.

Actually getting splitting onto your mind arrows is going to be difficult, the only way I can think of is with Kensai, which is another worthwhile class.

What's from pathfinder in this build?

EDIT: Looking over your build again, attacks aren't adding up. You begin your calculations with a BA of 11. You're a 9th level character, and Soulbow has average BAB. Even if you're adding its +1 for arrows to BAB you still are at only a 9. The line about Soulbow's mind arrow +x increasing BAB is not found in soulknife.

See, this is why I asked the forums for help! I hadn't even thought of just putting another level into PrC Soulknife!

To answer the greatbow concern and the Pathfinder content question: IIRC in Pathfinder there is a set of Psionic implements (crystal bow/hilt/handle/pauldron) that allow you to funnel your mind-stuff through them. I asked if we could could convert a crystal bow over to greatbow sized and put my arrows through that so I could get a d10 and also have a weapon to put splitting on.

I know the CON is stupid low, but that's what I was stuck with. We didn't do pointbuy, we did the 4d6 system and I got shafted a bit. I have a Belt of DK so my CON is currently 10 so I'm happy for the time being. I also am the one who got a book of +2 CON that I intend to use so there's that. (This whole build was without magic items considered except the splitting thing is why I omitted it)

Zen Archery and Deadeye are all things I'll probably take later on. Might even swap out Weapon Focus for one of them and make the Weapon Specialization at level 9 into the other. Thanks for the idea!

I will admit maybe my thinking is really warped on the whole BAB thing. I assumed that if Soulbow had the BAB enhancement then Soulknife would retroactively get it, like a thing they would have had to errata. Even still, Mindblade +Xs do affect the Soularrow +Xs as far as attack/damage rolls go. I think. I'm pretty sure they stack.

I might be wrong! That's why I'm here! I totally appreciate your input!

[The Viscount]

The BAB bit is a messy issue because the text says that, but there's no similar feature to compare it to, so have a discussion with your DM as to what it would mean. When using mind arrows or mind blades, the +X bonus to hit and damage stacks from both classes for either purpose, that's a definite fact.

Does your DM allow you to swap around the stats you've already rolled? If so it might be worth swapping str with con, assuming you're not planning on doing melee combat.

I'm not familiar with those items, so I'll ask a question out of curiosity: if you are keeping your strength, does that mean you would add strength to damage like you would with a regular composite greatbow?

[Suraydo]

The BAB bit is a messy issue because the text says that, but there's no similar feature to compare it to, so have a discussion with your DM as to what it would mean. When using mind arrows or mind blades, the +X bonus to hit and damage stacks from both classes for either purpose, that's a definite fact.

Does your DM allow you to swap around the stats you've already rolled? If so it might be worth swapping str with con, assuming you're not planning on doing melee combat.

I'm not familiar with those items, so I'll ask a question out of curiosity: if you are keeping your strength, does that mean you would add strength to damage like you would with a regular composite greatbow?

Well the crystal items are barren, like the bow doesn't actually have a string, so I would assume by default you couldn't put your STR bonus on it. But I wonder if Mighty would allow it... I'll have to inquire.

Strength is useful for the time being. I mean, our group at the moment is very martial based, with two incanctrix (incantri?) in the making, the Crocodile Tosser build cooking slowly too, and a Crusader. Honestly, I've been using a dwarven thrower with the belt combo and dish out nasty damage. Yay for being low level.

I doubt he would let me shift stats around though, he didn't even allow rerolls at creation. I appreciate the advice though.

Mostly concerned on how to boost WIS. I want to get a monks belt and take advantage of the scaling WIS but at the moment I don't see a benefit of dropping 13k on a belt that won't change my AC until later on, or if I get WIS boosting items, like the periapt, but that's just making me question why I wouldn't just buy magic armor with that gold. Is this stuff I should worry about when I actually get soulbow levels or no? Should I just drop a big chunk of a belt of magnificence down the road? I don't know anything about magic item builds in 3.5.

[The Viscount]

Provided your Wisdom is sufficiently high, the benefit of the monk's belt is that the AC applies to touch and flatfooted AC. If you're concerned about having armor enhancements, they might edge out the belt. Although if your DM lets you use and enchant a chahar-aina and/or dastana, that becomes less of a concern. Belt of Magnificence isn't worth it unless you're boosting a lot of your stats.