Lucky or Alert?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

They're both highly-touted feats, but which would you take first? In this case we're talking about a Diviner, so the fluff of either fits pretty well. Lucky is great, because it severely reduces the chances of failing a save (or being eaten or the like, if I'm dumb enough to get myself in that situation), so long as I can avoid rolling them too often. Alert is great, because it protects against one of the worst scenarios in the game, and any wizard worth their salt likes going first. But which one is better?

[bid]

Use lucky when you don't like your initiative roll.

[Strill]

Definitely Alert for a caster. You need to go first so you can lay down disabling AoEs like Web and Hypnotic Pattern on the enemies before your allies rush in.

[King539]

I'm a bigger fan of Alert.

[sir_argo]

I took Lucky. A couple sessions later, the DM started having us get surprised all the time. I wish I had taken Alert

[Hrugner]

Alert. Your defenses are mostly reactive or require a moment of preparation so it's important to have that surprise round. Also, in those early levels, going first will help you survive longer than lucky will.

[djreynolds]

You could look at it this way, an assassin beats your perception check and has to roll to hit you... you can use that lucky point to make him reroll his attack as it is a d20... he could miss you entirely

But alert basically means, inorder for a rogue to sneak attack you, you have to be incapacitated in someway or he needs a friend. You cannot be sniped from the shadows either or surprised.

Both are good, but alert is always on. Even if you have a bad perception check.

I would take alert over lucky.

[RumoCrytuf]

To quote L from Death Note:

"He who strikes first wins"

[RSP]

I've never worried too much about initiative, and if you need to go first in order to be effective, you have a weird build. Mind you, I'm not saying going first isn't an advantage, just saying it's never really been something I've thought about in terms of "oh I wish I were going first..." Though maybe that's just me.

And if you have a good Perception, that should help with the few times Surprise comes up.

Lucky, in my opinion, is the better feat as refills are very powerful, to the effect of turning a crit into a miss, rerolling a save or suck, whatever.

I will say I think Lucky is so good, it kinda takes some of the fun out of the game. But in my opinion, optimization-wise, it's the better feat.

[Strill]

I've never worried too much about initiative, and if you need to go first in order to be effective, you have a weird build. Mind you, I'm not saying going first isn't an advantage, just saying it's never really been something I've thought about in terms of "oh I wish I were going first..." Though maybe that's just me.

It's not hard to understand. He's playing a Wizard. He's gonna want to cast AoEs like Web, Fireball, or Hypnotic Pattern in order to incapacitate the enemy and mitigate the damage they can do. If he doesn't go first, the party's fighter is gonna rush in before him, and he'll have to choose between not casting the most appropriate spell, or hitting the Fighter with friendly fire.

[djreynolds]

I like lucky but only to use for missed saves or if someone scores a crit vs me

They are both good feats, but alert just for the initiative bonus is always on

[RSP]

It's not hard to understand. He's playing a Wizard. He's gonna want to cast AoEs like Web, Fireball, or Hypnotic Pattern in order to incapacitate the enemy and mitigate the damage they can do. If he doesn't go first, the party's fighter is gonna rush in before him, and he'll have to choose between not casting the most appropriate spell, or hitting the Fighter with friendly fire.

It's not that I don't understand why people would want to go first, it's that I've never worried about it.

First off, Alert doesn't guarantee the Wizard goes first every time, it's just a decent bonus to a d20 roll. The Rogue in the group (or Dex build Fighter, Ranger, Valor Bard, etc), could all have similar initiative bonuses as the Wizard would with Alert and it's unlikely the Wizard is always out rolling all of them, and the enemies. Which means in your example, half or a quarter (or whatever) of the time, the Wizard is still facing your "fighter rushing in dilemma," even with Alert.

Moreover, you're assuming every situation is going to be that it benefits the Wizard to go first, whereas, particularly with melee type enemies, it may benefit the Wizard to wait for a spread out group of enemies to converge at a single point (like say the party tank) in order to get as many targets as possible within range and radius. Sometimes the enemy going first and being the ones to double move closer to the PCs is a boon for the good guys.

Again, it's not a bad feat, but I think Lucky is better.

[NNescio]

I've never worried too much about initiative, and if you need to go first in order to be effective, you have a weird build. Mind you, I'm not saying going first isn't an advantage, just saying it's never really been something I've thought about in terms of "oh I wish I were going first..." Though maybe that's just me.

And if you have a good Perception, that should help with the few times Surprise comes up.

Lucky, in my opinion, is the better feat as refills are very powerful, to the effect of turning a crit into a miss, rerolling a save or suck, whatever.

I will say I think Lucky is so good, it kinda takes some of the fun out of the game. But in my opinion, optimization-wise, it's the better feat.

Just be aware that you if you do get Surprised, you don't get to take any reactions until the end of your first turn (your "Surprised" turn, which you spend doing nothing, not your de facto first turn when you actually get to do things). This makes the Surprised Wizard very vulnerable, as he is denied access to Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell.

Alert also helps negate advantage on attacks from hidden opponents. Combine this with immunity from being Surprised (and the +5 initiative), and this makes the Wizard relatively safe against sneak-type alpha-striking opponents, one of the few critical weaknesses of the Wizard. This is true even with Observant and proficiency in Perception (or the use of an Owl or Bat familiar).

(Also, some DMs are very surprise-happy and like to declare Surprise for their enemies when they abruptly switch from talking to attacking, even though the entire party was forced into falling for the same, like, multiple encounters right before that.)

+5 init is also very important for BFC Wizards who prefer laying down their BFC spells before the enemy can take a single action (and before their allies get to mix into the fray and potentially getting tangled up in the AoE of their spells).

Generally, I prioritize Alert over Lucky for Wizards, but the other way around for Clerics, as the latter's spells are more reactive/defensive and they have better AC and passive perception. Plus, well, Clerics don't get the important Reaction defenses of a Wizard (which a Wizard has to rely on to avoid being on the receiving end of "Geek the Mage first" syndrome). Clerics also cannot afford to be as cavalier with their low-level spell slots as the Wizard (because the Cleric doesn't get Arcane Recovery) -- in my experience there's quite a few times when playing as a Cleric where I took a wait-and-see approach (and just used at-wills like cantrips) against less threatening enemies, even though I won initiative.

Druids are somewhat in between -- they have potent BFC spells that you want to fire on the first round of combat, but again their base chassis isn't as vulnerable as the Wizard, and their only reaction defense of note is Absorb Elements. Overall I would tend to side towards Lucky for Moon Druids (to build on the onion druid factor) and Alert for Land Druids (because Natural Recovery lets them spam low-level BFCs/debuffs like Entangle or Faerie Fire even against less-threatening enemies).

'though really, it does depend significantly on your playing style (and the playing style of the DM and the other players). Sometimes Surprise almost rarely comes up, and your teammates do a very good job of scouting and protecting the Wizard, plus maybe you rarely encounter enemy spellcasters (innate or otherwise, as enemy spellcasters tend to turn the game into rocket tag), so Alert becomes far less powerful.

[RSP]

Just be aware that you if you do get Surprised, you don't get to take any reactions until the end of your first turn (your "Surprised" turn, which you spend doing nothing, not your de facto first turn when you actually get to do things). This makes the Surprised Wizard very vulnerable, as he is denied access to Shield/Absorb Elements/Counterspell.

I'm aware, and you're right: campaigns/DMs may make Alert a better choice.

But changing die rolls after you see the result is a pretty powerful ability in 5e. It's why Divination Wizards are generally considered one of, if not the, best archetypes (of one of the Tier 1 classes), and why those with limited forms of it, like Lore Bard's Cutting Words, are likewise considered very powerful.

Again, Alert is a good feat in my opinion, and worth taking in its own right, I just believe Lucky is better.

[Strill]

Moreover, you're assuming every situation is going to be that it benefits the Wizard to go first, whereas, particularly with melee type enemies, it may benefit the Wizard to wait for a spread out group of enemies to converge at a single point (like say the party tank) in order to get as many targets as possible within range and radius.In that case you cast Web and deny them the center of the map, splitting them in two forces that you can divide and conquer.


Sometimes the enemy going first and being the ones to double move closer to the PCs is a boon for the good guys. It's even better if they have to run through a Web spell.

Also, according to anydice, a +7 initiative character will go ahead of a +2 initiative character 70% of the time. Even if some of the other party members do go first, the fewer party members go before you, the easier it is to make the call. (Also some party members, like the Rogue, can easily make a ranged attack on their first turn with little to no loss.)

[Hrugner]

I could maybe see a case for taking lucky first if you aren't a variant human, lucky at 4-7 is pretty useful. At 1-3 however, you're pretty much casting sleep and ending combats or removing one threat per ally action; it's best to do that before the enemy gets a turn. As a divination wizard you already have a few rerolls stocked up as well, so it's slightly less useful in either situation.

[RSP]

In that case you cast Web and deny them the center of the map, splitting them in two forces that you can divide and conquer.

It's even better if they have to run through a Web spell.

Also, according to anydice, a +7 initiative character will go ahead of a +2 initiative character 70% of the time. Even if some of the other party members do go first, the fewer party members go before you, the easier it is to make the call. (Also some party members, like the Rogue, can easily make a ranged attack on their first turn with little to no loss.)

The Web thing: Assuming you're fighting completely unintelligent creatures, that just run headfirst into the giant mass of goo you just fired at them, sure this is a good tactic, but this is probably a DM not actually playing the NPCs.

And, of course, the other party members don't mind you stopping all their fun, because barbarians love when another PC stops them from doing what they do best, melee.

Again, going first isn't a bad option, I just don't think the feat adds up to better than Lucky.

Coming up with situations where the feat works as it's supposed to isn't a convincing argument: I'm aware of what the feat does and agree it's useful.

But I think Lucky is more useful, and can apply pretty much to any situation involving the character who has it.

I'm not going to post a whole bunch of random scenarios that show how Lucky can be effective, because I'm likewise assuming you understand how it works.

I think Lucky is the better feat.

[Fishyninja]

My personal favourite is Alert.

Both are very good feats but the never being suprised and +5 to initiate is always a nice bonus!

[Pex]

Personally I took neither for my human Diviner. I went with Resilient Con for the help in Point Buy, hit points, and proficiency in Concentration checks.

Everyone here is so gung ho on these feats. I've played a few different characters now and never once took any of these feats or even considered them. They're good feats, I'm sure, but they're not universally loved everyone has them.

[Yuroch Kern]

*whistles* Helluva coin toss. It wouldn't matter too much if you're a V.Human if you are just deciding which one to take first, as you'll have 'em both at 4th. As far as order of selection, I like Alert better. The Diviner already acquires a version of Lucky, and it's not just the initiative bonus you look at. Immunity to surprise can also mean you acting before everyone else by virtue of THEM being surprised anyway.

[Strill]

The Web thing: Assuming you're fighting completely unintelligent creatures, that just run headfirst into the giant mass of goo you just fired at them, sure this is a good tactic, but this is probably a DM not actually playing the NPCs.

And, of course, the other party members don't mind you stopping all their fun, because barbarians love when another PC stops them from doing what they do best, melee.
You've got it backwards. The point is not to isolate the party and let the enemies walk around the web, it's to isolate one group of enemies, and let the party walk around the web to the other group of enemies. That way you turn a deadly encounter into two medium encounters.

[RSP]

You've got it backwards. The point is not to isolate the party and let the enemies walk around the web, it's to isolate one group of enemies, and let the party walk around the web to the other group of enemies. That way you turn a deadly encounter into two medium encounters.

Again, it's pointless to list specific situations that may occur throughout an adventuring day. And, by the way, your situation still requires winning initiative, which is not guaranteed even with Alert, and going before other party members. It also requires your DM to constantly throw encounters at your group when they're at a Y intersection, with two groups of enemies on either side of the split.

If this is how your campaign/DM likes to set up every encounter, by all means, weigh Alert as the better feat. I stated this previously, that campaigns and/or DMs could make one feat standout more than the other.

Now, unless you're playing a PC in Strill's constant-Y-intersection-is-where-the-enemies-always-encounter-the-group dungeon crawl (sounds fun by the way), I think Lucky is the better feat.

[Strill]

It also requires your DM to constantly throw encounters at your group when they're at a Y intersection, with two groups of enemies on either side of the split.

We're discussing this particular situation because you brought it up as a case where Alert performs badly. I made the point that it's actually a favorable situation, and now you're acting as though it's somehow the only situation where alert performs favorably. Make up your mind. (Also, it works just as well in long hallways as it does in Y intersections)


And, by the way, your situation still requires winning initiative, which is not guaranteed even with Alert, and going before other party members. No, it doesn't "require" any of that. It makes things easier, but it's not required at all. You can ask the other party members who go before you to open up with a ranged attack, or to focus on an enemy who's not in your desired area of effect. Even if an enemy or two goes before you, that still doesn't necessarily invalidate the plan.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I wouldn't take Lucky, or approve of my players taking it, since I think it's badly designed (the DM now needs to submit all rolls made against this character for possible veto, and the interaction with advantage/disadvantage appears to have been entirely ignored). Therefore Alert wins by default, though it is also a perfectly fine feat in itself.

[RSP]

It's not hard to understand. He's playing a Wizard. He's gonna want to cast AoEs like Web, Fireball, or Hypnotic Pattern in order to incapacitate the enemy and mitigate the damage they can do. If he doesn't go first, the party's fighter is gonna rush in before him, and he'll have to choose between not casting the most appropriate spell, or hitting the Fighter with friendly fire.

Strill, he's the quote where you brought up casting Web before a Fighter goes.

Again, it's a moot point because A) we'd be wasting way too much time going back and forth on where one Feat trumps another.

And B) this is an opinion question, in which I stated my opinion and you decided to attack it (see above), which is ridiculous, as it's an opinion.

By all means, continue feeling Alert is the better feat, but don't think other people won't disagree with you.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Lucky or Alert? They're both very useful feats.

Here's a good deciding factor: What's your Perception score like? Do you get surprised a lot?