Ladies... the female gaze?

[Jeivar]

I'm writing a story from the POV of a young woman, and I just thought I'd seek some advice.

(let me just start by saying that, yes, I realise that neither gender is ever going to collectively agree on everything, I just want some opinions to take inspiration from)

I have her observing a man she's in the very early stages of taking an interest in, and I don't want to get caught by the "obviously written by a man" thing. I DO want her to note that he's not only likeable, but easy on the eye as well.
And for context they (along with some other people), are sharing a large hot tub, naked (communal bathing is a big cultural thing in the setting and no-one considers it awkward).

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, since no ladies have replied, allow me.

" I was enjoying the heat of the water, soaking away the day's stress when I noticed him. Standing outside the tub, he took off his robe and began to enter. It was easy to see he was in good shape ...very good shape. As he entered the water, I caught his eye & held his gaze, just for a beat or two longer than normal, then turned away. I could feel him eyeing me, so I absent-mindedly tucked my ankle behind my ear..."

[thorgrim29]

I absent-mindedly tucked my ankle behind my ear..."

Wow, that escalated quickly... Don't think he's writing a porno.

[Sajiri]

I was going to try replying, but I dont actually know what the needed advice is on. Is it how she's acting? What she's thinking?

I dont see why being written by a man is a bad thing, I think if you can recognise that men and women often think differently then you can easily come up with whatever it is she's doing. Not all women think and act alike obviously, and the culture and personal experiences probably have just as much or a bigger impact than her gender. The only thing I can really think of that would make me think 'yep, this is written by a guy' would be if the whole scene was centered around a 'male wish fulfillment', which...well I cant think of any exact examples right now.

If she's noting that he's easy on the eye, then she's going to have her own preferences on what she likes, which is probably more than just what his package looks like (I assume if they're bathing naked she might have saw it). Could be his eyes, his physique, his face, etc. If she's also noted that he's likeable, then what is it that makes him likeable? Is he friendly? Brave? Honorable? They share the same interests? Really it's nothing that would be specific to her being a woman.

If the next thing is how does she get his attention as well, well that can be more about gender, culture and experiences as well. If she's young, has she had much experience with men? Is she shy? Is she flirtatious? Seductive? Nervous? Are there customs in the culture of the setting that she would follow to give signs or signals that she's interested?

[Dragonus45]

I say don't worry to much and just write it. Just about all the writers I can think of that have gotten positive praise for for their writing of the opposite gender have said they didn't put a lot of thought into gender during the writing. Although if you personally feel like its going to be an issue for you you may consider just writing for a dude and removing that stress from your writing.

[AliceLost]

I think the best feedback you can get will be to write your story, and then show it to some women and get their feedback on it. It will be a lot easier for them to read it and go "oh, this stands out as coming from a male perspective" than it will be for them to give you a list of things to avoid beforehand. It'll also be easier to tell if what you've written makes sense in context.

One broad stereotype is that men tend to focus on highly sexualized parts of the body when looking at someone they find attractive, while women will pay attention more to the overall physique, appearance and mannerisms. But that doesn't mean you can't have a totally realistic scene where a woman sees a naked dude and just thinks "whoa, he has a nice ass!"

[happyturtle]

One thing she's going to be noticing is how much he's checking her out. Is it going to be a "my eyes are up here" type thing, where many women tend to be a big put off? Are their eyes meeting, which indicates instant attraction? Is he oblivious to her at this stage of the story?

If it's a group, she might be comparing him to other men. "Bob was certainly the one with the best shoulders, and Chris had a great butt, but Dave's legs.... mmmm... they were perfect. It was a shame that the water hid them now." Though a lot of that depends on whether she's the type of person who will be checking out men in this environment.

You can also add physical traits like scars, tattoos, etc, to catch the eye, or perhaps even spark conversation. Nearly everyone loves telling the story about their tattoos, particularly their first one. A machinist who lost their finger in an accident will be revealing something about their lives, as will a person mumbling something non-committal about a bad scar that they have from a car accident where they were a driver and someone else was killed.

Finally, to answer the actual question, I like legs. Most of the women I went to college with preferred to ogle butts. But every (straight or bi) woman I know enjoys looking at a man's hands. :smalltongue:

[Ninja_Prawn]

One broad stereotype is that men tend to focus on highly sexualized parts of the body when looking at someone they find attractive, while women will pay attention more to the overall physique, appearance and mannerisms.

But every (straight or bi) woman I know enjoys looking at a man's hands. :smalltongue:

Most of the women I know are gay so this may not be representative, but the one feature that gets picked on more than any other in my experience is the eyes. "Wow, you have such beautiful eyes!" From a writer's perspective, it would seem to be a safe option.

[happyturtle]

True, eyes are good. But you don't usually look closely at a person's eyes without looking into them, and that's an intimate act. Perhaps eye compliments could be saved for a bit further into the relationship.

What I forgot to mention about hands is how much you can learn about a person from their hands. Smooth soft hands indicates perhaps someone who works with their mind rather than their hands. Calloused hands can show you the kind of work they do or hobbies they have (guitar playing). Well-manicured hands if they care greatly about their appearance or feel it is important. Maybe they bite their nails when they get nervous, or they have arthritis in their knuckle joints. Maybe there is paint staining some of the crevices in their fingerprints, from a job or hobby. A bandaid or two from getting banged up in some way. There's always the glance at the left ring finger, if you find a man interesting.

The best thing about hands is that Hollywood hasn't imposed their image of the 'perfect' on male hands the way they have on face and physique. We've been told for a century that all men worth having will come equipped with pecs and a six pack, whether they have a bodybuilder's lifestyle or not. But at least they haven't told us that any particular style of hands is superior to any other. (Unlike with women, who must all have soft thin fingers, flawless skin, and perfect manicures, whether or not that makes any sense for their lifestyle or not.)

[AliceLost]

Most of the women I know are gay so this may not be representative, but the one feature that gets picked on more than any other in my experience is the eyes. "Wow, you have such beautiful eyes!" From a writer's perspective, it would seem to be a safe option.

Yeah, I'm not well equipped to offer advice on what straight women tend to pay attention to either. :smallyuk:

[Prince Zahn]

There's a limit to how far anyone here can guide you without knowing what exactly you wrote, or what does your protagonist want in a man.
Even though I'm not a woman, I can vouch for looking at the overall physique, in the confidence of her own narrative, she would make notes of her initial impressions, the attitude he projects, she might keep an eye out for facial features, such as his eyes (which admittedly are the first things I look at when looking for someone) if he has a cute nose, a charming smile, his hair (and body hair: I know quite a few couples, where the woman liked to play with - and sometimes even wanted to pluck - the man's facial/arm/chest hairs.) any distinguishing details like others said - tattoos/scars/jewelry/freckles/dimples/birthmarks/glasses. She might look at his torso and legs or arms or butt too, if that's something she likes. The more she gets to know this man, she might notice these things over time and appreciate them.

It's also important if she knows what he thinks of her. She'll know if he's coming onto her, or if he's being bashful in her presence. She'll likely read her situation and notice if he just doesn't care, if he's just a friend, Etc. If she's starting to like him, she might subtly/subconsciously seek out signs and hints on whether he feels the same way. So there is quite quite some focus on what he's doing, and more importantly what she thinks about him/his actions or words, whether he makes her laugh, or they have a great talk, if he has an alluring voice, or he is just so sweet, or has some other quality that she finds attractive.

EDIT:I'm also starting to see everyone's point on hands. Makes me with I took care of mine better >_<

[Kalmageddon]

Another thing that you might consider is that depending on what the characters are doing, her gaze will be attracted to the relevant body part. Like for example if a guy is doing some heavy lifting, shoulders, back and arms would be easier to appreciate. Since they are bathing, I would guess that the general area of the torso and maybe legs/buttocks would be something that would attract her gaze more, since she's probably seeing those without any clothes for the first time.
I mean, it doesn't even necessarely has to come off as a fetish for a particular body part. Every time you see someone naked, you see parts that are usually hidden, so obviously you would notice them. Where her gaze would linger I think is dependent on her personal taste.
Perhaps try to figure out what kind of men she likes? If she likes strong, manly types, muscles like pectorals and abdominals might catch her attention. If she prefers a more delicate kind of man, perhaps his grace and limbs would be more appreciated.

[Jeivar]

I appreciate the responses.

She is a fitness freak, so a well-honed body might catch her eye. But then she is also a musician, so long, elegant hands might also catch her attention. These points about hands are interesting. Would it be really inappropriate for her to imagine them inside of her... ?

[TheManicMonocle]

I appreciate the responses.

She is a fitness freak, so a well-honed body might catch her eye. But then she is also a musician, so long, elegant hands might also catch her attention. These points about hands are interesting. Would it be really inappropriate for her to imagine them inside of her... ?

Depends on if you want her to realise that she's attracted to him.

[Prince Zahn]

I appreciate the responses.

She is a fitness freak, so a well-honed body might catch her eye. But then she is also a musician, so long, elegant hands might also catch her attention. These points about hands are interesting. Would it be really inappropriate for her to imagine them inside of her... ?


Depends on if you want her to realise that she's attracted to him.

that would be a pretty strong attraction right off the bat. you said she's at the early stages of taking in interest in him, right? so I might not rush to those thoughts in your position.

but this is conjecture. If you progress your story a bit more, or if I'm wrong and she's already at the point where she realizes she has feelings for/desires him, and these feelings grow stronger, then by all means - have her fantasize about his hands, or even more, if you want. Just be sure pace yourself and it'll come naturally.

[2D8HP]

Read works by many women authors, and steal scenes be inspired by their writing.

Remember if you are inspired by only a few it's plagiarism, but if you read enough it's research!

(Really there so many good novels by women that stealing being inspired shouldn't be too hard. How women describe attractive men, is a little but not too different than how men describe attractive women. I'd say the main difference is that women tend to write better male characters than men tend to write female characters).

[Sajiri]

Would it be really inappropriate for her to imagine them inside of her... ?

While I would say that would be something for after she realises she has desire and attraction for him, it could be set up that that's something that causes (or at least adds to) her developing attraction for him. If something put the thought in her head already, such as maybe she was just exposed to seeing something between another couple, or someone had made comments of such things to her, it could already be on her mind and she could start imagining such things as her mind wanders, which might then increase her desire for him.

I'm not saying to do that (In general if it's early stages, I wouldnt rush into sexual desire like that), but there are ways it could happen and might be part of what sparks a further desire for him

[Scarlet Knight]

Wow, that escalated quickly... Don't think he's writing a porno.


I appreciate the responses.

She is a fitness freak, so a well-honed body might catch her eye. But then she is also a musician, so long, elegant hands might also catch her attention. These points about hands are interesting. Would it be really inappropriate for her to imagine them inside of her... ?


Well, I suddenly feel like Nostradamus.

[thorgrim29]

Hahaha guess he's going for a more raunchy tone than I had assumed. I guess in that case going to check a highlight reel of Magic Mike on youtube and seeing where the camera focuses would not be a bad bet

[RabbitHoleLost]

Straight women are going to look at abs, hips (especially if they're narrow in comparison to broad shoulders), what I like to call the runners V which is really just the indentation from the hips down and inwards
You might try reading some women's romance novels for research, actually.
They're typically written by women for women, and you'll realize pretty quickly that there are recurrent themes.

[DracoknightZero]

This thread have been a interesting read thats for sure, but on the note of "this is written by a man" type of deal i think its mostly on what they put the focus on. Forexample a man would think a woman would look at what *he* thinks is attracting the ladies, his nether regions, his large muscles, his "sexy hair" or other similar aspects. On the other front i suppose women is more interested in the "aura" you exhibit, like a aura of mystique, the toned muscles of your forearms, that slight scar across his chest. (Which i heard from some of my female friends).

The biggest trap i think is to focus on sexual organs unless the character in question is one of sexual desire, but even then there is a bit more to it than just having the big D slapping about.

And yeah, do read some romance or erotic novels from women to women, you will notice very quickly where that is going.

[erikun]

I would like to pop in with a quick recommendation.

Before you run off trying to read through Twilight, or 50 Shades of Grey, in the attempt to copy their writing style or subjects, might I recommend something from Dakota Cassidy? (note: sparse adult content) Accidental Werewolf, Accidentally Dead, and those sort of novels. She tends to have a good writing style and develops her characters well. It is certainly better than looking through Twilight and assuming that anyone considers the writing in that one is particulary good.

I've not read 50 Shades of Grey, so I can't honestly say how good or bad that one is.

[Sajiri]

I've not read 50 Shades of Grey, so I can't honestly say how good or bad that one is.

I attempted to read 50 shades to see what was so great about it...it's not. It really, really is not a good read. I couldn't even bring myself to finish it. In fact, reading something like that (which was originally twilight fanfiction, and it really shows) or twilight itself is probably detrimental to having a good example.

There's something between younger girls (maybe like 10-14) and older where what they think is attractive and romantic are completely different. From what I've seen, the younger and inexperienced will think things like jealousy, possessiveness, stalking! (in the case of twilight) or emotionless (50 shades) are romantic. Get a tiny bit older or experience it in real life, and you can see how terrible it is. I'm not really sure what it is that makes a lot of girls think this way, I assume it's the media they are exposed to while younger on what a 'cool' or 'desirable' man would be like and they have no real world experience to make their own judgements off yet.

Using 50 shades as an example, the lead male character's (I forgot his name) behaviour was controlling and entirely sexually driven. I think it was supposed to be romantic in there somewhere but I didn't see it, it was just sex for the sake of sex while saying there was chemistry and there wasn't. It also just, made no sense at all, feeling very forced on why the two are even together. I could never read twilight but I hear the same from that, that the characters relationship felt very forced.

I suppose that's a trap to be careful not to fall into. Make sure it makes sense/has reason that one character is attracted to another. Physical attraction can work but it only goes so far.

Also, don't read fanfiction as inspiration if it ever comes up. There seems to be a specific way that fanfiction authors write, I assume because they are often reading other fanfics the style invades. It usually involves making note of blinking a whole lot for some reason

[Scarlet Knight]

When you ask for the opinion of Ladies, do you wish to know:

a) How they would behave if they were in the scene?
b) How they would write the scene? or
c) What would they enjoy when reading the scene?

[RabbitHoleLost]

I would like to pop in with a quick recommendation.

Before you run off trying to read through Twilight, or 50 Shades of Grey, in the attempt to copy their writing style or subjects, might I recommend something from Dakota Cassidy? (note: sparse adult content) Accidental Werewolf, Accidentally Dead, and those sort of novels. She tends to have a good writing style and develops her characters well. It is certainly better than looking through Twilight and assuming that anyone considers the writing in that one is particulary good.

I've not read 50 Shades of Grey, so I can't honestly say how good or bad that one is.

I suggest Kresley Cole's Immortals After Dark which is like
not amazing, but definitely a cut above the average fantasy smut novels

[Sermil]

My favorite female author -- actually, my favorite author, who happens to be female -- Lois McMaster Bujold has a set of romance / fantasy novels called The Sharing Knife; the first book involves, among other things, the two main characters slowly falling in love.

Fawn, the female half of the pair, usually notices Dag (the male)'s cheekbones and his interesting gold-flecked eyes. But she seems more attracted to his strength and caring, and how safe she feels when he's around. (Their meet-cute is him saving her life from a horrible monster, and then saving her from bleeding to death in the night that follows, so that might have something to do with it.) Interestingly, Bujold definitely writes Dag as being more interested in Fawn's visual secondary sexual characteristics than Fawn is in Dag's; in particular, Dag definitely & repeatedly notices how her beautifully her breasts move. So don't fall into the trap of assuming a woman has to find any part of a man visually appealing to find him appealing.

If you want to see a good female writer writing about a woman becoming attracted to a man, The Sharing Knife is a pretty good choice.

[golentan]

I was told by many of my friends that butts are very nice.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b4/b0/3f/b4b03f3dadc8b0142a816acb027c908b.jpg

[Ifni]

If you want to see a good female writer writing about a woman becoming attracted to a man, The Sharing Knife is a pretty good choice.

I was thinking of recommending Bujold! She has other examples in Komarr, where Ekaterin is falling in love with Miles (and in deep denial about it), and in Paladin of Souls, where Ista is (quietly, mentally) very appreciative of a couple of the male characters' physical attractions.

Here's an example of Ista's first sight (in a dream that turns out to be a vision) of her eventual love interest:

Despite the wiry length of his frame the bones of his face were almost delicate: brow wide, jaw fine, chin somewhat pointed. His skin was unmarred by scar or blemish, but faint lines pressed across the forehead, framed the lips, fanned from the eyes. His dark, straight hair was brushed back from his forehead, the hairline high, receding; it flowed down over the pillow to his shoulders like a river of night, rippling with tiny gleams of moonlight from the silver threads.

His brows were arched, winging; nose straight; lips parted. Ista’s ghostly hands unbound the belt, folded back the linen robe. The hair trailing down his chest was sparse, until it thickened at his crotch. The bird that nested there was fine and fair, and Ista smiled.
Note that what provokes Ista's smile at the end is the sight of his crotch, so it's not always true that Bujold's female characters ignore secondary (or primary) sexual characteristics. But this part of the description isn't at all graphic, or unnecessarily belabored; it focuses on Ista's reaction. I think this is generally a good way to go.

(Note that the context in which she's folding back the robe is that he appears to be critically injured - but even while she's acting as an investigator, she notices all this detail about his appearance. The level of lavish description and its positivity - gray hairs (usually a negative) recast as "tiny gleams of moonlight", repeated use of "fine" - is itself a signifier of Ista's initial attraction, along with her smile.)

[Scarlet Knight]

No one suggests Danielle Steel?

[Sermil]

I was thinking of recommending Bujold! She has other examples in Komarr, where Ekaterin is falling in love with Miles (and in deep denial about it)

Yes, another Bujold fan!

I skipped recommending Komarr just because Bujold was constrained in her choice of male romantic leads -- Miles was an established character, and many details of his physical characteristics -- his deformities, his dwarfism, his 'head which seemed too large for his body', his charisma and leadership, his dry wit, his openness to life -- were already well-established, by stories where he was not a romantic lead. So he may not be a good example of what a female author would choose if trying to imagine "an attractive man" from scratch.

I will say that for both Dag and Miles, they clearly carried scars, which Ekaterin, in particular, seemed fascinated by. Dag was missing his left hand, bitten off twenty years earlier during a fight with a different monster, while Miles had been killed by a grenade to the chest about a year earlier. And then got revived, with lab-grown lungs and heart.

Ekaterin is fascinated by the scars because she is going through a lot of pain herself; to her, the scars tell of someone else who has been through pain and survived it. But in both cases, it speaks to a certain vulnerability which seems very attractive to the female halves of the pairings. Fawn, as I said, seems attracted to Dag's strength, and how safe he makes her feel, but one of the most significant moments in her growing attraction to him is when he is struck by a childhood memory of a clear pond of beautiful water lilies, and starts tearing up because in his hard life of wandering and fighting monsters, he had almost forgotten those water lilies. So that combination of public strength and competence, coupled with a private vulnerability (especially emotional vulnerability), seems very attractive.

[golentan]

Bujold is amazing just in general. :smallsmile:

Wish I'd noticed that comment.

[Sermil]

Well, as long as this is turning into a Bujold-fest, I'll throw in the first time Cordelia Naismith, Miles' eventual mother, noticed something positive about Aral Vorkosigan, Miles' eventual father, in Shards of Honor, right after he makes a tricky shot with a stunner:


Vorkosigan grinned like a boy over his shoulder at her, and jogged after his prize.
"Oh," she murmured, stunned herself by the effect of the grin. It had lit his face like the sun for that brief instant. Oh, do that again, she thought; then shook off the thought. Duty. Stick to duty.

[factotum]

Well, as long as this is turning into a Bujold-fest, I'll throw in the first time Cordelia Naismith, Miles' eventual mother, noticed something positive about Aral Vorkosigan, Miles' eventual father, in Shards of Honor, right after he makes a tricky shot with a stunner:

I would say that one applies to both genders, surely? Leastways, I always think a woman is far more attractive when they're smiling, which is why I don't understand why fashion shoots usually have their models looking so utterly miserable...

[Sermil]

I would say that one applies to both genders, surely? Leastways, I always think a woman is far more attractive when they're smiling, which is why I don't understand why fashion shoots usually have their models looking so utterly miserable...

Slightly off-topic: They're not trying to look attractive, they're trying to look high-status. As a rule, low-status people smile at high-status people, high-status people don't smile for low-status people. It's a way of ingratiating yourself. Think of the classic image of young worker trying to impress her new boss. The worker is usually smiling and trying to look eager; the boss is giving her a 'we'll see' frown. If you look at ads for low-end clothes, the models are usually smiling and looking happy; as you move up the status chain, the models look more and more seriously and cold. That coldness makes they look like they are 'above' you in the social hierarchy, and therefore, if you wear these clothes, you too will move up the social hierarchy.

[minderp]

"...so I absent-mindedly tucked my ankle behind my ear..."

Wait, if i read the following comments correctly, i'm getting the popular opinion that this isn't an appropriate way to greet someone and show coyness? Dammit, all that yoga for nothing...

[Scarlet Knight]

Wait, if i read the following comments correctly, i'm getting the popular opinion that this isn't an appropriate way to greet someone and show coyness? Dammit, all that yoga for nothing...

I think I love you...

[Liquor Box]

I attempted to read 50 shades to see what was so great about it...it's not. It really, really is not a good read. I couldn't even bring myself to finish it. In fact, reading something like that (which was originally twilight fanfiction, and it really shows) or twilight itself is probably detrimental to having a good example.

There's something between younger girls (maybe like 10-14) and older where what they think is attractive and romantic are completely different. From what I've seen, the younger and inexperienced will think things like jealousy, possessiveness, stalking! (in the case of twilight) or emotionless (50 shades) are romantic. Get a tiny bit older or experience it in real life, and you can see how terrible it is. I'm not really sure what it is that makes a lot of girls think this way, I assume it's the media they are exposed to while younger on what a 'cool' or 'desirable' man would be like and they have no real world experience to make their own judgements off yet.

Using 50 shades as an example, the lead male character's (I forgot his name) behaviour was controlling and entirely sexually driven. I think it was supposed to be romantic in there somewhere but I didn't see it, it was just sex for the sake of sex while saying there was chemistry and there wasn't. It also just, made no sense at all, feeling very forced on why the two are even together. I could never read twilight but I hear the same from that, that the characters relationship felt very forced.


I noticed this comment because it stands out in such stark contrast to the success of the novel - it is immensely popular with women of all ages. i haven't read it myself, so don't have a personal opinion on how good it is or isn't.

I suppose this illustrates different strokes for different folks. Whatever the OP writes, it will resonate with some females as to where their gaze would go, and not to others. Pick and idea from the thread and run with it.

[minderp]

I think I love you...

*absent-mindedly tucks the other ankle behind the first*...

[StarLightPips]

Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking (Sounds petty but it's kinda true). If people put a negative connotation to what you've written it's more than likely they're projecting sterotypes of people onto your writting.

TL;DR Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

[Sajiri]

I noticed this comment because it stands out in such stark contrast to the success of the novel - it is immensely popular with women of all ages. i haven't read it myself, so don't have a personal opinion on how good it is or isn't.

I suppose this illustrates different strokes for different folks. Whatever the OP writes, it will resonate with some females as to where their gaze would go, and not to others. Pick and idea from the thread and run with it.

I remember noticing very clearly that whenever anything sexual came up in it, the grammar and spelling suddenly became very bad :/ I felt like I was the only one who noticed it.

Also maybe Im just hard to please. I read a lot, I also write a lot, and to me it felt like the popularity of 50 shades was based entirely on the fact that 1. there was a lot of sex and 2. it was piggy backing on something else originally (twilight). From my experience, most people who I personally know and liked it were the people that don't read novels very often. Descriptions consisted of hair colour, eye colour, and outfits, and nothing else. Most actions were blinking, gasping, and main-character-guy-who's-name-I-forget constantly running his hand through his hair. The lead female was described as plain, clumsy, never wore makeup or fancy clothes, but she somehow had, it felt like, every introduced male character pining after her. The author I think had a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'. It was complete with little anime-esque style descriptions of what I could imagine a chibi version of herself dancing or drooling in a thought bubble over her head aka her 'inner goddess'. Also Im pretty sure the book was called 50 Shades of Grey because main-guy's eyes were described over the book in 50 different ways of they are SO GREY AND BEAUTIFUL.

I am probably being harsh and overthinking this and there's nothing wrong with anyone who likes it of course (If I have offended anyone or my comments disagree with someone else's opinion, I apologise. This is all my own personal opinions and thoughts on what makes things like 50 shades so successful and what I think is wrong with it). It does interest me that it is so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly. I suppose if you have enough sex in something it will become popular, just like when the Avatar movie was rereleased in cinemas and as soon as it was announced to have a longer sex scene, a lot of people suddenly decide they had to see it.

However, I say 50 shades as a bad example because I dont think it was attempting to set out to do what it actually did- which was write about what is honestly a very abusive relationship taking advantage of an inexperienced young woman. I admit I didnt read all the way to the end, but it really didnt seem like it was going to build up to anything to do with that realisation, it seemed like it was attempting to go for misunderstood man can learn to love by finding a pure hearted wife material girlfriend or something, and failing terribly. It was essentially porn, but because it was a book, it was seen as more classy, and because it was then popular even more people flocked to it and it was seen as more acceptable to like it or something.

I also recall it offending the BDSM community, as what they do is built on trust, but again, the book presented it in an entirely controlling and abusive manner. The controversy probably also helped garner interest, and I think hearing that was also what finally got me curious to see what the big deal with it all was and try reading it. Its funny how one fanfiction story could do all this.

[minderp]

...a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'...
...so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly...

It is actually the first book i could not finish, and i have read some incredibly awful books among the thousands. The grammar was painful.
Some sections sounded like she found a thesaurus and set herself the challenge to never repeat a word, no matter how far stretched the words became.
And then, yes, the favourite words, over and over and over.
It was painful.
I tried, i'm a hairdresser, EVERY 40 something to 50 something client had read it and wanted to talk about it. So i tried, for the same reason i read the newspaper and those terrible celebrity magazines - so i can talk about SOMETHING with housewives of all age. But i couldn't. I just couldn't finish it.

[scalyfreak]

One important aspect of the female gaze (though I hate gender labels and would prefer to assign this one to a personality type instead):

How does he treat people who "don't matter", when no one is looking? Is he nice to the annoying four year old child because he's trying to get on the mother's good side, or because he likes kids? What are his friends like? And how many of them are female, and how does he treat them? How does he treat his mother and sisters? Nephews?

Et Cetera.

All of the above gives hints about what kind of person someone is, and that makes it very important when you're watching a guy while trying to determine if he is relationship material. Or one-night-stand material, for that matter.

[Liquor Box]

I remember noticing very clearly that whenever anything sexual came up in it, the grammar and spelling suddenly became very bad :/ I felt like I was the only one who noticed it.

Also maybe Im just hard to please. I read a lot, I also write a lot, and to me it felt like the popularity of 50 shades was based entirely on the fact that 1. there was a lot of sex and 2. it was piggy backing on something else originally (twilight). From my experience, most people who I personally know and liked it were the people that don't read novels very often. Descriptions consisted of hair colour, eye colour, and outfits, and nothing else. Most actions were blinking, gasping, and main-character-guy-who's-name-I-forget constantly running his hand through his hair. The lead female was described as plain, clumsy, never wore makeup or fancy clothes, but she somehow had, it felt like, every introduced male character pining after her. The author I think had a favourite word of the week, where she uses the same word over and over to describe something for several chapters, then never does again and switches to a new word, like 'clambering'. It was complete with little anime-esque style descriptions of what I could imagine a chibi version of herself dancing or drooling in a thought bubble over her head aka her 'inner goddess'. Also Im pretty sure the book was called 50 Shades of Grey because main-guy's eyes were described over the book in 50 different ways of they are SO GREY AND BEAUTIFUL.

I am probably being harsh and overthinking this and there's nothing wrong with anyone who likes it of course (If I have offended anyone or my comments disagree with someone else's opinion, I apologise. This is all my own personal opinions and thoughts on what makes things like 50 shades so successful and what I think is wrong with it). It does interest me that it is so successful when it truly, honestly is written very poorly. I suppose if you have enough sex in something it will become popular, just like when the Avatar movie was rereleased in cinemas and as soon as it was announced to have a longer sex scene, a lot of people suddenly decide they had to see it.

However, I say 50 shades as a bad example because I dont think it was attempting to set out to do what it actually did- which was write about what is honestly a very abusive relationship taking advantage of an inexperienced young woman. I admit I didnt read all the way to the end, but it really didnt seem like it was going to build up to anything to do with that realisation, it seemed like it was attempting to go for misunderstood man can learn to love by finding a pure hearted wife material girlfriend or something, and failing terribly. It was essentially porn, but because it was a book, it was seen as more classy, and because it was then popular even more people flocked to it and it was seen as more acceptable to like it or something.

I also recall it offending the BDSM community, as what they do is built on trust, but again, the book presented it in an entirely controlling and abusive manner. The controversy probably also helped garner interest, and I think hearing that was also what finally got me curious to see what the big deal with it all was and try reading it. Its funny how one fanfiction story could do all this.
Sure, I think it still comes down to different strokes for different folks. Other than your point about grammar and spelling, I don’t think there is one “right” or “good” way to write a scene like this – it is subjective and (like 50 Shades) what is good writing or a good story for some, will not be for others.

It sounds like you are a person of refined literary tastes, so I’m sure there will books that appeal to you that do not appeal to the mainstream, and books that appeal to the mainstream that do not appeal to you (like 50 Shades). It also sounds like you have a moral objection to the relationship depicted in the book, but most readers of the book did not.

I guess my point is that the OP will not be able to please everyone (or every female) with how he depicts the female gaze. Your post demonstrates that an example (50 Shades) that appeals to many, does not appeal to all. Is 50 Shades a good example for the OP to follow? Some readers will things so, some (like you) will not, and in the end it comes down to whether that book resonates with the sort of story/scene the OP is trying to write.

[Honest Tiefling]

I tried, i'm a hairdresser, EVERY 40 something to 50 something client had read it and wanted to talk about it. So i tried, for the same reason i read the newspaper and those terrible celebrity magazines - so i can talk about SOMETHING with housewives of all age. But i couldn't. I just couldn't finish it.

This thread was at first educational. Now it has become the thing of nightmares. I will tip my next quiet hairdresser well in the memory of your sanity.

[minderp]

This thread was at first educational. Now it has become the thing of nightmares. I will tip my next quiet hairdresser well in the memory of your sanity.

I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks to my occupation, i can name all of the Kardashians - there is no hope left for my sanity.

[Kyberwulf]

First off, I would like to say, I dislike it when people say one group writes something better then another group. I have seen good writing from one side of equation. I have seen bad writing of the other-side.

ON the topic at hand. I don't think it is going to be an easy question to ask. It's not like you are logging on and asking how to fix a carburetor. Writing people is going to be more complex then that.

One thing you will have to consider first. The culture she lives in. As the author, you have a lot of leeway in that respect. When you are writing try to think how the character views her culture's value. What the culture sets as the benchmark will determine what she looks for in a partner. When you are writing a scene like this, people will generally pick up what is considered desirable, and what isn't by what is focused on, and what isn't.

Take for instance, when you said that they share a communal bath. That says a LOT about the culture and how they view their bodies. Which is very important.

Also take note of the social status of the person. Both the voyeur, and the voyeuree. This might same trite, but it is an important consideration for context.

The next thing to consider is how she views herself in this culture. Once you can figure out how the culture works, you can see how see would view herself in the culture. What she would find attractive because of what he can provide. What is so unattractive about other people, that he does well.

I bring this up, because when someone starts falling for someone, they look at more then just physical attributes. Well, certain body parts take on different meanings.

From the original post, I will assume you are a guy. Don't you ever notice when you are checking out the ladies, you look at them and formulate different thoughts? Like a certain way they dress or act. What body parts you can see, or can't see? It takes on a different meaning in your head. You can see the same type of clothes on different women and have different ideas about what they mean to you as potential partners. There has to have been a time when you written off someone as one thing, only to have them change their persona. That one time you stopped seeing them as a label, as seen them as a person.

That's the moment you have to capture when they are in the scene. Which is probably, why you have to go back and rewrite some scenes. I am guessing. To write that scene you will have to go back and drop back moments where she sees the and experiences when he goes against the culture or does something that is exemplary. The moment where Buttercup realizes what "as you wish means."

Also, we(that includes you) need more information about her, to really determine what she would find attractive. The more you find out about her, the more you can reflect how she sees the world. How she sees the culture influences how she sees him. How he fights it, how it weighs him down, or how he thrives in it. Most importantly, how she can best help him, moreover that she WANTS to help him. (note, I am only using female pronouns as the agent here, because the was asked for it from that perspective. The gender pronoun can be flipped.) That she WANTS to be something special to him.

This is were the social standings comes into play. What she does would depend on if she views herself of lower, equal or higher station. What her potential options according to culture is, depends on how the scene plays out.

Also, It would help to know about the other character, how we know or don't know how he feels about her and the situation. Again social ques, as far as culture goes. How he looks, vs how he acts can help. If he is Gaston or Beast. How he looks physically. Does he have like, a surfer body, a runners body, arnold body. You said she is a fitness freek. That could juxtapose nicely against the fact that he is a musician. I mean, musicians aren't known for the physicality.

I mean the scene could go she is bathing in the water. She notices him sitting on the edge of the pool. What she never noticed, as he sits there in a robe slightly opened at the top, is the quiet determination as he focuses on his instrument. The way he pushes the distractions of the pool away so he can get the strings to the perfect note. The way she never noticed how perfect his voice is as he harmonizes.(remember, to use the word perfect as much as you can.)

Remember though. When writing don't think. Is this how a (label) would act. Instead think how a person would act.

I don't know how serious of a response you wanted. Hope this helps. A lot more wordy then what other people said. I just want to say though. Knowing your characters helps the most. When you can come on and describe your characters, you will know how they will act. Don't worry so much about anyone will perceive them. A lot of the best characters go against the mold. Also, when you know your characters, the scene will write itself.

[Aedilred]

My understanding of 50 Shades is that its success was all about content. People enjoyed and/or were titillated by the sex scenes and BDSM content (whether the novels actually offered an accurate portrayal of BDSM is another matter). However, stylistically, the books are terrible, replete with lumpen similes, mixed metaphors, malapropisms, passages that read like they haven't been properly edited, and generally the sort of prose you might write as an adolescent on a bad day, then find a few years later and cringe with embarrassment that you ever committed such drivel to text.

Perhaps the books do in some sense offer a reasonable representation of the way a woman in such situations might think about such things, but even if they do, the language used to convey it is so poor that I can't imagine it's a text worth taking as your model for such things.

Just because something's popular doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

[Scarlet Knight]

Just because something's popular doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

True, but 50 Shades was the first S&M book I ever saw that house-wives were willing to walk around with in public. Not Story of O or Madonna's Erotica, hey, they often hid their Harlequins!


Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking ....
Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

Any Jack Nicholson fans out there? :
Woman : "How do you write women so well?"
Melvin Udall (Jack): "I think of a man. And I take away reason and accountability."

[Marlowe]

Another Bujold fan; notice she takes time to mention what people are wearing. Might seem like a minor detail, but it can say a lot about who they are, how they see themselves, and how they were planning on spending the day when they got up that morning.

[Brother Oni]

Straight women are going to look at abs, hips (especially if they're narrow in comparison to broad shoulders), what I like to call the runners V which is really just the indentation from the hips down and inwards.

In art, the 'runner's V' is more formally known as the Apollo's Belt or Adonis belt.

To support the general sentiment of the thread, it depends on the character primarily and to a lesser extent, their culture. For example, my wife likes broad chest and shoulders while all her sisters prefer thin lean men.

[Honest Tiefling]

Another Bujold fan; notice she takes time to mention what people are wearing. Might seem like a minor detail, but it can say a lot about who they are, how they see themselves, and how they were planning on spending the day when they got up that morning.

Also says a lot about the observer! Through I have only read one of her books, Ethan of Athos. I don't recall him mentioning that, but the main character is a pediatrician and probably an idiot when it comes to fashion.

[thorgrim29]

Also says a lot about the observer! Through I have only read one of her books, Ethan of Athos. I don't recall him mentioning that, but the main character is a pediatrician and probably an idiot when it comes to fashion.

And Ethan is from a crazy ascetic cult obsessed with sin so fashion options are probably limited

[Themrys]

Personally, my advice is just to write is as you'd a guy assuming the guy is good looking (Sounds petty but it's kinda true). If people put a negative connotation to what you've written it's more than likely they're projecting sterotypes of people onto your writting.

TL;DR Screw the haters. Female gaze is almost the exact same as the Male.

No. It is not.

Look at Jim C. Hines' blog, the article "If we wrote men like we write women". It takes some more blatant examples of male gaze, and switches the sexes in the piece of writing. If you are not a very exceptional woman, who manages to somehow dehumanize and objectify men despite being fed narratives from a male PoV for all your life, then you will notice very big differences to how you look at men.

The female gaze may be almost the same as that of men who actually consider women human. Sure. But that perfect situation is not the case everywhere.


As was suggested before: Read books by women. Just ... read decent, high-quality books by women. Do not read Fifty Shades of Grey or Twilight. Those latter ones might also reflect how some women think, but unless exactly those women are your target audience, it is a bad idea to target your writing at them. I assume you want to write something for a more general audience so ... let yourself be inspired by books for a more general audience.

[2D8HP]

...Look at Jim C. Hines' blog


Oh I read that! (I checked out his Fable: Blood of Heroes from the library, so I looked out his blog) He also poses in the same position as the women pictured on the covers of different fantasy novels and comments on how much pain they cause:

Cover Posing - Jim C. Hines (http://www.jimchines.com/cover-posing/)

It sounds strident, but it's actually hilarious!


As was suggested before: Read books by women.


I recommended these before in a different thread:


This week I finished The Burning Page, the third and last novel in a series after The Invisible Library, and
The Masked City.

It was AWESOME!

Now I'm about to start A Conjuring of Light, the third novel in a series after A Darker Shade of Magic, and
A Gathering of Shadows, which I've been eagerly awaiting the publication of FOR TOO LONG!

The first sentence reads:

"Delilah Bard - always a thief, recently a magician, and one day, hopefully, a pirate - was running as fast as she could.



Meet you later, I'll be reading!


Both series are written by women, with women protagonist, but most of the rest of the characters are men, so the lead characters gaze at them.

And in the Shades of Magic series two of the men gaze at each other, so twice the gaze to steal emulate!

I'm sure I've read that much "gaze" before (the Anne Rice I read decades ago I'm sure did), but I have a poor memory for it.

The "gaze" in incidental (both series are page-turning fantasy adventures, which is what I was looking for), but you could do worse.

Recommended.

[scalyfreak]

Elisabeth Moon's books about Paksenarrion might be worthwhile as well. Next to nothing romantic going on, at least not for the main female protagonist, but in addition to a very well written female perspective, they also portray a paladin very well.