Fog Cloud Question

[SMac8988]

Hello all. Question to all the lovely people in the playground.

My group and I have recently started Out of the Abyss. I am playing a rogue, and we just hit level 3 and I decided trickster could be fun. I also found a homebrewed awakened undead, which allowed me to be a skeleton.

But that's not the question. I was wondering if there is any way to use Fog Cloud, similar to zabuza from Naruto. Basically use the cloud as cover for sneak attacks and to move around unseen. I have read it and it seems like my attacks would be at disadvantage, which would make me lose my sneak attack.

I had an idea of taking find familar, and getting a bat that lives in my ribs to use his blind sight, but it takes an action to see from him, and then no attacks....

So ya, suggestions or is this nnot a thing?

[Ninja_Prawn]

It can be done.

If you're both in the Fog Cloud, your attacks have disadvantage, but attacks against the other guy have advantage. This cancels out. Therefore, assuming you know which square the target is standing in, you can set Sneak Attack if there is an ally within 5 feet of the target. Such as your familiar, for example (though you can only have one conjuration spell at level 3. You could take Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster - or multiclass into wizard - next level, though).

[Dalebert]

The Alert feat works well for things like this. It's the closest thing there is to a blind-fighting feat right now. As was just posted, you have disadvantage because you can't see your target which cancels with them granting you advantage because they can't see you either. Alert means they don't have advantage against you from being hidden so they continue to attack you with disadvantage. Thus you attack normally while they have disadvantage.

It doesn't help you get sneak attack but it allows you to attack normally in a fog cloud while imposing disadvantage on your enemies. You still need a way like an adjacent ally or eventually via your Mage Hand once you gain that feature. That's a GREAT feature, btw. Honestly, a familiar is probably your best bet at this level for extra chances at advantage. Mage Hand will do it for you whenever you need it later on. You're pretty well set as an AT for getting lots of advantage.

I suggest you use your owl's flyby to assist and then try to save enough movement for it to get behind total cover. It's tiny so that shouldn't be too hard most of the time. That will protect it from Magic Missiles and most other attacks other than AoEs. If they hate it enough, they might ready an attack for it but that can be a costly decision.

[Hootman]

Therefore, assuming you know which square the target is standing in, you can get Sneak Attack if there is an ally within 5 feet of the target.

If I'm not mistaken, the rogue entry says that if you have disadvantage from any source, you cannot Sneak Attack. Even if the effects of disadvantage are being cancelled out, you still have it (otherwise, they would negate one to one, not unilaterally).

[Dalebert]

If I'm not mistaken, the rogue entry says that if you have disadvantage from any source, you cannot Sneak Attack. Even if the effects of disadvantage are being cancelled out, you still have it (otherwise, they would negate one to one, not unilaterally).

You are mistaken. If you read the section of the PHB on advantage and disadvantage, whenever you have both, you are considered to have neither.

And thank the designers for that breath of sanity because rogue damage SUCKS if they're not getting their sneak attack most of the time. That would be a very painful nerf of rogues.

[coredump]

You just need a magic item, class feature, or racial benefit....that will give you True Sight, or Temorsense, or Blindsight, or something similar.

Talk to your DM, if he is allowing awaked skeletons, this shouldn't be that hard to talk him into...

[SMac8988]

You just need a magic item, class feature, or racial benefit....that will give you True Sight, or Temorsense, or Blindsight, or something similar.

Talk to your DM, if he is allowing awaked skeletons, this shouldn't be that hard to talk him into...

That's a good idea. I'll talk to him about it

[Tanarii]

\You still need a way like an adjacent ally or eventually via your Mage Hand once you gain that feature. That's a GREAT feature, btw. Honestly, a familiar is probably your best bet at this level for extra chances at advantage. Mage Hand will do it for you whenever you need it later on. You're pretty well set as an AT for getting lots of advantage.
Not clear if you're talking about AT Mage Hand Versatile Trickster or Familiar taking a Help Action for Advantage in or out of a Fog Cloud. In a Fog Cloud, they don't help, because the Disadvantage cancels all sources of Advantage.

[RickAllison]

That suggestion for using Find Familiar to always qualify for Sneak Attack and Alert to give disadvantage to attack you seems like the best bet. Pick up Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade from SCAG if you can to get more consistent damage.

[mcsillas]

Hello all. Question to all the lovely people in the playground.

My group and I have recently started Out of the Abyss. I am playing a rogue, and we just hit level 3 and I decided trickster could be fun. I also found a homebrewed awakened undead, which allowed me to be a skeleton.

But that's not the question. I was wondering if there is any way to use Fog Cloud, similar to zabuza from Naruto. Basically use the cloud as cover for sneak attacks and to move around unseen. I have read it and it seems like my attacks would be at disadvantage, which would make me lose my sneak attack.

I had an idea of taking find familar, and getting a bat that lives in my ribs to use his blind sight, but it takes an action to see from him, and then no attacks....

So ya, suggestions or is this nnot a thing?

Fog cloud creates a heavily obscured area. According to the latest Errata, heavily obscured areas do not necessarily blind you from seeing out of them, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something located in the heavily obscured area. Common sense will indicate that if you are in the obscured area, at some distance back in it you won't be able to see out of it, depending on the type of obscured area (heavy foliage - not far back, darkness - very far back). I use it mostly in combat, taking the view point that if you are trying to see an enemy located in the heavily obscured area, then you suffer from the blinded condition. However, if both you and the enemy are located in the heavily obscured area, the blinded condition cancels out, but perception checks still fail.

If the enemy is blinded, you gain advantage to attack rolls, while the enemy has disadvantage to attack rolls and the enemy's sight perception checks fail.

Scenarios:

1. Move around in the fog cloud unseen by those located outside of it; those outside the cloud suffer from the blinded condition when trying to spot you.

2. Move around in the fog cloud unseen but if the enemy is also in the fog cloud, then you both suffer from the blinded condition since you are both trying to see something obscured by the fog cloud.

[Tanarii]

According to the latest Errata, heavily obscured areas do not necessarily blind you from seeing out of them, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something located in the heavily obscured area.That is not accurate. The Errata says:
Vision and Light (p. 183). A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.
You are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it, not in it.

That's an important distinction because it means:
A) You are effectively blinded if you are not standing in a heavily obscured area, and try to see something in, or on the other side of, the heavily obscured area*.
B) You are effectively blinded if you are standing in a heavily obscured area and trying to see out of, or something in, or otherwise through, the heavily obscured area*.

*that isn't darkness. Obviously darkness doesn't obscure seeing through it or out of it, since it doesn't 'block' vision.

[Dalebert]

You just need a magic item, class feature, or racial benefit....that will give you True Sight, or Temorsense, or Blindsight, or something similar.

You just need that? You pass it off as trivial when those are extremely powerful abilities. Truesight takes a 6th level spell just to have it for one hour. The others are nigh impossible to get by a player character without some type of homebrew or by turning into a beast that has it at which point many of your class features become unavailable, e.g. sneak attack since it takes a finesse weapon and I can't think of any beasts with blindsight who could use one.

[mcsillas]

That is not accurate. The Errata says:
Vision and Light (p. 183). A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.
You are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it, not in it.

That's an important distinction because it means:
A) You are effectively blinded if you are not standing in a heavily obscured area, and try to see something in, or on the other side of, the heavily obscured area*.
B) You are effectively blinded if you are standing in a heavily obscured area and trying to see out of, or something in, or otherwise through, the heavily obscured area*.

*that isn't darkness. Obviously darkness doesn't obscure seeing through it or out of it, since it doesn't 'block' vision.

I agree with you on point A and I partially agree on point B. You are not effectively blinded when standing in a heavily obscured area and trying to see out of it, particularly if you are in the outer edge of the obscured area. If you are in a dark ally (heavily obscured) and someone walks down the ally with a torch in hand and the light radius has not reached your location in the dark, you can see them and they can not see you. The person with the torch suffers from blindness condition. Another example, you are on the perimeter of a dense forest (heavily obscured) the enemy approaches from a cleared out plain, you defend the forest from your location in the dense foliage. The approaching enemy suffers from the blinded condition. According to the type of obscured area, you could only be so far back in it before you would not be able to see out of it yourself such as fog cloud or dense foliage, but darkness, you could be 100' back in the darkness and still see someone holding a light source.

[coredump]

You just need that? You pass it off as trivial when those are extremely powerful abilities. Truesight takes a 6th level spell just to have it for one hour. The others are nigh impossible to get by a player character without some type of homebrew or by turning into a beast that has it at which point many of your class features become unavailable, e.g. sneak attack since it takes a finesse weapon and I can't think of any beasts with blindsight who could use one.

Yes "Just"..... considering he is already playing a homebrewed awakened skeleton, and his first solution is to have a bat live in his ribs to 'share' the blindsight..... getting a pair of 'googles of blindsight' or whatever doesn't seem that far fetched. Especially since he really only needs a 10-20' range.

[Tanarii]

I agree with you on point A and I partially agree on point B. You are not effectively blinded when standing in a heavily obscured area and trying to see out of it, particularly if you are in the outer edge of the obscured area.Generally speaking, if you can see out of something opaque that obscures, you should also not obscured by it yourself. There's no reason to assume if something opaque obscures you, that you can see out of it without it obscuring your view.


If you are in a dark ally (heavily obscured) and someone walks down the ally with a torch in hand and the light radius has not reached your location in the dark, you can see them and they can not see you. The person with the torch suffers from blindness condition.That's because darkness only obscures things in it. Not seeing through it. It has nothing to do with your previous point.


Another example, you are on the perimeter of a dense forest (heavily obscured) the enemy approaches from a cleared out plain, you defend the forest from your location in the dense foliage. The approaching enemy suffers from the blinded condition.Why would you assume this is the case? Nothing indicates that.


According to the type of obscured area, you could only be so far back in it before you would not be able to see out of it yourself such as fog cloud or dense foliage, but darkness, you could be 100' back in the darkness and still see someone holding a light source.Again, darkness is not opaque. It doesn't 'obscure' by blocking vision. Unlike fog, foliage, or just about anything else.

Of course, there's nothing that actually says darkness, which isn't opaque, doesn't obscure vision through it. You just kinda have to know that. Otherwise RAW your torch examples would all be wrong. :smallyuk:

[mcsillas]

Generally speaking, if you can see out of something opaque that obscures, you should also not obscured by it yourself. There's no reason to assume if something opaque obscures you, that you can see out of it without it obscuring your view.

That's because darkness only obscures things in it. Not seeing through it. It has nothing to do with your previous point.

Why would you assume this is the case? Nothing indicates that.

Again, darkness is not opaque. It doesn't 'obscure' by blocking vision. Unlike fog, foliage, or just about anything else.

Of course, there's nothing that actually says darkness, which isn't opaque, doesn't obscure vision through it. You just kinda have to know that. Otherwise RAW your torch examples would all be wrong. :smallyuk:

I assume this is the case because I believe the Errata states exactly that, "a heavily obscured area does not blind you, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something obscured by it." To me, the developers are trying to establish that being in a heavily obscured area provides the one in it with an advantage in battle due to the enemy suffering from the blinded condition since they can't see you. I try to have the game simulate real life in situations like this. When I'm hunting in real life, I heavily obscure myself, with camouflage and foliage, from my prey so that I can still see them but they can't see me. Same situation with fog in heavily obscured areas. On stage, when the fog machine is running, I can see the audience but the audience can't see me.

Darkness is opaque unless there is a light source.

[NNescio]

I assume this is the case because I believe the Errata states exactly that, "a heavily obscured area does not blind you, but you are effectively blinded when trying to see something obscured by it." To me, the developers are trying to establish that being in a heavily obscured area provides the one in it with an advantage in battle due to the enemy suffering from the blinded condition since they can't see you. I try to have the game simulate real life in situations like this. When I'm hunting in real life, I heavily obscure myself, with camouflage and foliage, from my prey so that I can still see them but they can't see me. Same situation with fog in heavily obscured areas. On stage, when the fog machine is running, I can see the audience but the audience can't see me.

Darkness is opaque unless there is a light source.

The errata is there to prevent Lesser Restoration from being used to cure the Blind condition while in a heavily obscured area, which was technically allowed by RAW (despite how silly it may be) before they errata'd it.

[Tanarii]

D&D is not a simulation.

Regardless, you can use the Stealth skill in D&D when you're hunting, which is the abstraction of what you just described.