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BurgerBeast
2017-03-25, 02:23 PM
Context:

1. I don't consider myself an optimizer, but among my group of friends I may be the most inclined to optimize
2. I recently made a beast master ranger (to get away from the optimizing mentality), precisely because it was considered a weak class (on forums), and built my character from an RP perspective. I had a blast and became attached to the character
3. some talk about the importance (or unimportance) of ASIs got me to thinking:

Question: How could you build a character that is "good enough" in combat yet minimally dependent on ability scores and ASIs? Caster and non-caster options, please.

Logic: insofar as your abilities are not necessary to character function, you could use your abilities, skills, feats and other options to support character choices.

Clarity: I'm not sure how clear the question is, so I'll come back and edit it as needed.

Addaran
2017-03-25, 02:28 PM
Mostly pure casters, fighter and rogue.

A very specific build is to go dwarven cleric of nature. Shillelagh for melee attack, sacred flame for ranged and you have a full plate. Being a dwarf, you don't need str to wear it without slowing.

mephnick
2017-03-25, 02:30 PM
A caster focusing on buffs could probably be run with all 8s

LudicSavant
2017-03-25, 02:31 PM
Moon Druids are pretty stat-independent. Half the time they're replacing their physical statline entirely, and the only mental stat that matters is Wisdom.

Decstarr
2017-03-25, 02:39 PM
Not sure if I correctly understand the question, but if so, then the obvious answer would be pretty much any skill monkey build. The Bard/Rogue multiclass comes to mind here and pretty much shines in any "check" and RP situation and will also always be to some degree useful in combat because, well, it's a sneaky bard :P

Steampunkette
2017-03-25, 02:43 PM
Bards and Druids.

Bards throwing out buffs require neither attacks or saves against their abilities, so the DC or Bonus is irrelevant.

Druids Wild Shape, ignoring their physical stats and the need for casting stats in favore of being a Giant Gorilla that beats the enemy to death.

Foxhound438
2017-03-25, 02:48 PM
I would have to say cleric and rogue

Cleric only really needs decent con and a 16 in wis (attainable at first), and with a hill dwarf you basically have an extra +2 con. Armor makes you tougher as well, and if you take a "casting heavy" subclass you don't really need a weapon, so a shield is always justified.

Rogue gets the benefit of expertise in stealth, making it in many cases hard to get hit and easy to get hits of your own thanks to the free advantage.

tkuremento
2017-03-25, 02:56 PM
A caster focusing on buffs could probably be run with all 8s

Just hope they don't need to make a concentration check, though I guess even just having War Caster or Resilient (Con), or starting with a level of Barb, Fighter, or Sorcerer you could get advantage for Constitution/Concentration. Of course you could just be a straight up Sorcerer as well.

Specter
2017-03-25, 03:40 PM
On melee:
Barbarian (just boost STR and rage away)
Fighter (especially DEX fighters, so that melee and range are covered)
Rogue (only DEX involved)
Ranger (a low-WIS ranger with a careful spell selection works)

On casting:
Lore Bard
Moon Druid
Diviner Wizard: plan around buffs, and use the Portent die mostly for concentration checks

Laurefindel
2017-03-25, 03:53 PM
A caster focusing on buffs could probably be run with all 8s

Yeah, no sure about being "good enough" in combat, but a Wizard focusing on spells requiring neither attack roll nor saves could live a good adventuring career out of a half-decent CON score.

Matrix_Walker
2017-03-25, 04:01 PM
Bards and Druids.

Bards throwing out buffs require neither attacks or saves against their abilities, so the DC or Bonus is irrelevant.

Druids Wild Shape, ignoring their physical stats and the need for casting stats in favore of being a Giant Gorilla that beats the enemy to death.

Remember that a bard with CHA 8 only has one use of inspiration

A battlemaster get's all his superiority dice...

FinnS
2017-03-25, 04:42 PM
Easily Rogue.
Not one of Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Expertise, Reliable Talent, Blindsense, Slippery Mind, Elusive or Stroke of Luck are stat dependent in any way.

Only the AT brings any kind of Stat reliance (INT for Spell DC's) to bare for the Rogue class and even that can be worked around to a degree through careful spell selection.

Steampunkette
2017-03-25, 05:03 PM
Sneak attack is SUPER reliant on Dex.

You have to -hit- the target to deal your Sneak Attack Damage.

BigONotation
2017-03-25, 05:13 PM
Any wizard can have all 8s and be fine.

busterswd
2017-03-25, 05:14 PM
I'd actually want to know if you were talking about a class with all 8's in all stats, or a class that only relies on one stat.

In the case of the former, for combat, a Moon druid is generally the go to answer (since wild shape is completely stats independent). A Wizard would also be decent; there are enough spells that ignore stats that would make you useful, if not up to par, in combat, as well as spell saves that still do SOMETHING on a failure. Additionally, you can still get a lot of out of combat utility from ritual spells from your book. Biggest problem would be level 1 and 2; having only 1 prepped spell would be painful, for either of these classes.

In the case of the latter, you have a ton of options. Any Dex ranged martial class, or full caster with frontline support would be fine (possibly not cleric, as a lot of their juju is 30 ft range). Melee tends to be the most demanding in terms of stats (you want a good con, decent dex for saves/initiative, and as much strength as you can pop in, all at once).

NNescio
2017-03-25, 05:27 PM
Pure support Life Cleric or I-don't-care-about-my-stats Moon Druid (Wildshaped most of the time, because your BFC spell DCs suck). These both can function to some extent even with all stats under 10.

Pure support Lore Bard might also work, but you are squishiness personified.

FinnS
2017-03-25, 06:07 PM
Sneak attack is SUPER reliant on Dex.

You have to -hit- the target to deal your Sneak Attack Damage.

Not really in this case.
OP clearly states that they want a character that won't rely on or use ASI's for stat bumps and can function just fine with whatever starting stats they have.
Even with standard point buy they are starting with 16-18 dex depending on race which is more than good enough and never have to spend an ASI on stats.

Blitz1992
2017-03-25, 06:21 PM
Well I have a mastermind/battlemaster/sorc that I am working on that will be full support and will actually attack as little as possible. The 30 foot bonus action help and commanding strike mean that you need a 13 in Dex only to play the build. Using standard array and half elf you get 8 str, 14 Dex, 16 con, 10 int, 12 Wis and 16 cha

tkuremento
2017-03-25, 06:31 PM
Not really in this case.
OP clearly states that they want a character that won't rely on or use ASI's for stat bumps and can function just fine with whatever starting stats they have.
Even with standard point buy they are starting with 16-18 dex depending on race which is more than good enough and never have to spend an ASI on stats.

How does one get 18 with Point buy? I keep seeing 17 but not 18 since you can only buy a 15 and the max a racial gives is +2, right?

Vogonjeltz
2017-03-25, 07:06 PM
Context:

1. I don't consider myself an optimizer, but among my group of friends I may be the most inclined to optimize
2. I recently made a beast master ranger (to get away from the optimizing mentality), precisely because it was considered a weak class (on forums), and built my character from an RP perspective. I had a blast and became attached to the character
3. some talk about the importance (or unimportance) of ASIs got me to thinking:

Question: How could you build a character that is "good enough" in combat yet minimally dependent on ability scores and ASIs? Caster and non-caster options, please.

Logic: insofar as your abilities are not necessary to character function, you could use your abilities, skills, feats and other options to support character choices.

Clarity: I'm not sure how clear the question is, so I'll come back and edit it as needed.

Every classes uses Con and their Primary stat, end thread.

mgshamster
2017-03-25, 07:17 PM
Every classes uses Con and their Primary stat, end thread.

I've had PCs who dumped con. They did just fine.

And I've had buffing characters who didn't really care about their casting stat.

Spiritchaser
2017-03-25, 07:18 PM
moon druid

Decent spell list, including pass without trace to help the whole party...

When you need to ignore poor stats just be a bear... or whatever.

It's one of the strongest classes and you need almost nothing for it to be that way.

Coidzor
2017-03-25, 07:32 PM
Yeah, no sure about being "good enough" in combat, but a Wizard focusing on spells requiring neither attack roll nor saves could live a good adventuring career out of a half-decent CON score.

Minor Illusion distractions, using a familiar to use its Help action to aid the party's fighter-types, Sleep, Magic Missile. Yeah, there's at least some options there.

FinnS
2017-03-26, 02:29 AM
How does one get 18 with Point buy? I keep seeing 17 but not 18 since you can only buy a 15 and the max a racial gives is +2, right?

You're right, I meant 16-17 to start.

ShikomeKidoMi
2017-03-26, 02:37 AM
As people have stated before me, being buff oriented as a caster, though if you're a cleric or bard you can throw healing on top of that and have something else you can do that doesn't involve attacks or saves.

Sir cryosin
2017-03-26, 07:25 AM
Sneak attack is SUPER reliant on Dex.

You have to -hit- the target to deal your Sneak Attack Damage.

Not really you can use str as your attack stat along as your using a light or finesse weapon.

NNescio
2017-03-26, 07:57 AM
Not really you can use str as your attack stat along as your using a light or finesse weapon.

Rogues must use a Finesse weapon or a ranged weapon to qualify for SA (in addition to its usual requirements). They don't necessarily need to use Dex to qualify, so they're free to toss daggers using STR or stab somebody with a rapier using STR, yes.

Whether a weapon has the Light property or not is immaterial to whether it qualifies for SA -- the Light property only lets you use Two-Weapon Fighting when you dual-wield them (unless you have the Dual Wielder feat, which lets you ignore the restriction on Light weapons), and only if the light weapon also happens to be a melee weapon (thrown melee weapons also qualify for TWF, yes, but light ranged weapons like the hand crossbow do not).

Rogues therefore cannot SA with clubs, as they are neither Finesse weapons nor ranged weapons. They also cannot SA with an unarmed strike, even if they have Monk levels and get to use DEX instead of STR for their attacks (unarmed strikes are not weapons, much less Finesse weapons). By the same token, Monk/Rogue multiclasses also cannot SA with most monk weapons (unless it already has the Finesse property like the dagger or shortsword), because while the Finesse property lets you choose to use either Dex or Str to make your attacks, being able to use either Dex or Str to make your attacks (such as via the Monk Martial Arts class feature) does not make the weapon a Finesse weapon (fallacy of affirming the consequent).

Steampunkette
2017-03-26, 08:04 AM
Not really you can use str as your attack stat along as your using a light or finesse weapon.

...

So they need Str. Which still requires a stat which was the actual core of the rebuttal to Finn's statement based on the topic at hand.

Tanarii
2017-03-26, 09:01 AM
How are moon Druids not stat dependent in combat if they're wild shaping to get good stats for combat?

Steampunkette
2017-03-26, 09:12 AM
How are moon Druids not stat dependent in combat if they're wild shaping to get good stats for combat?

'Cause a Moon Druid can have 3 in every single stat, turn into a Giant Badger, and still be just as effective in melee combat as a Moon Druid that rolled solid 18s and then turned into a Giant Badger.

Your base stats are irrelevant.

Addaran
2017-03-26, 09:13 AM
How are moon Druids not stat dependent in combat if they're wild shaping to get good stats for combat?

He meant as in resources spend. Your initial stats are irrelevant and you don't need to use your ASI on them (in fact, it's useless, since your physical stats get replaced.) So you only need to invest in one stat with point buy or you could just have one good stat while rolling.

Even with crappy wisdom, you're kinda okay until some spells are thrown at you.


edit: Shadowmonk'ed

Tanarii
2017-03-26, 09:26 AM
Your base stats are irrelevant.Okay so the answer is an assumption the OP means base stats when he says least stat dependent in combat. That's not unreasonable.

OP is that what you mean? Because it certainly makes Moon Druid the least stat dependent. Almost any other character (including Beastmaster Ranger) is attack stat dependent in combat.

Mjolnirbear
2017-03-26, 09:57 AM
As an aside, my understanding is BM Ranger is mechanically fine. Most people are dissatisfied with its implementation. Furthermore all classes are balanced within a fairly narrow margin. Paladins are strong, wizards are flexible, but no class is outright broken nor are there trap classes. They all function well enough to have fun with.

Citan
2017-03-26, 10:43 AM
Context:

1. I don't consider myself an optimizer, but among my group of friends I may be the most inclined to optimize
2. I recently made a beast master ranger (to get away from the optimizing mentality), precisely because it was considered a weak class (on forums), and built my character from an RP perspective. I had a blast and became attached to the character
3. some talk about the importance (or unimportance) of ASIs got me to thinking:

Question: How could you build a character that is "good enough" in combat yet minimally dependent on ability scores and ASIs? Caster and non-caster options, please.

Logic: insofar as your abilities are not necessary to character function, you could use your abilities, skills, feats and other options to support character choices.

Clarity: I'm not sure how clear the question is, so I'll come back and edit it as needed.
Easy enough when you break down to the following.
a) Being resilient (high AC, possibly high saves)
b) Being good enough on attacks.

1. Paladin (Devotion recommended):
AC: heavy armor
Defense: Aura of Protection (at least +1 on all saves)
Attack: Sacred Weapon + Bless.
You can easily start with 16 in STR, CON and CHA as a Half-Elf, and you are excellent in both offense and defense.
Even if you don't want to optimize, you can fare well by maxing only either your main attack stat or your casting stat (depending on Oath), you will still get some nice bonus and you can compensate with your spells as needed.

2. Rogue (Arcane Trickster recommended)
AC: a bit lacking at first, but with DEX you can reach 17, which is respectable.
Defense: Uncanny Dodge, halving damage is always good. You also get Shield and Mirror Image, possibly Haste
Attack: you can only rely on DEX, and you have option to go ranged.
You can very well stay safely at range, so all you need really is DEX.

3. Bear Barbarian
AC: you can forego Unarmored to go medium + shield if you prefer defense.
Defense: Danger Sense, Feral Instinct, Relentless Rage, resistance to all damage.
If you don't care that much about Unarmored Defense, you just need a 14 in DEX and go wild, the only thing you can do is Attack with STR anyways.

4. Fighter (Eldricht Knight recommended)
Especially with feats allowed this is potentially one of the best, but even without.
AC: heavy armor.
Defense: Action Surge (you can Dodge ;)), Indomitable, Healing Surge.
Attack: 4*attacks.
You can very well max only your attack stat and be done with it, or start with very bad stats and bump them to honest levels with so many ASI (especially without feats).
If feats are allowed, you can easily max both attack (GWM/Sharpshooter) and defense (Resilient, Tough, Defensive Duelist, Durable).
AND you get the usual Shield + Mirror Image/Blur/Misty Step.

5. Moon Druid (lvl 10+)
extra squishy normally, but you get physical stats of your Wild Shape, so as you improve it you get better. It also makes for a hefty amount of temp hp.

6. Wizard (lvl 18+ :smalltongue:)
Shield as a free reaction, what else? :smallbiggrin:

tkuremento
2017-03-26, 11:32 AM
You're right, I meant 16-17 to start.

It could be possible with the common houserule I see of no VHuman because everyone gets 1 feat to start so you could with a half feat that gives +1 to your 17. But RAW, nope :P

BurgerBeast
2017-03-26, 12:01 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies. To provide clarity (I hope) I meant, at least in theory and insofar as it is possible, a character for whom ability scores matter the least.

In other words, if I just want to be able to assign the initial ability scores however I want (because I want to play a wise, charismatic character, or because I want to play a strong, intelligent character), which class(es) best facilitates this?

It seemed likely to me that the answer would boil down to a caster that specializes in spells with no save. But I wanted to also consider non-casters.

Essentially I wanted to know which classes would give freedom to build the rest of the character however I want - from ability score placement to feat and skill choices. So, in answer to the ability score question: they shouldn't matter. The player would still get to roll or use the standard array, but you (the commenter) would have no control over where the scores ended up assigned.

You might think of it as: which class is best if you have to choose it first, there will never be an ASI (only feats), but then abilities, skills, and feats are randomly assigned (edit: race also)?

Edit: they wouldn't be randomly assigned, though. They'd be chosen by a player who chooses solely for character reasons - not for optimizing.

tsuyoshikentsu
2017-03-26, 12:11 PM
There isn't a non-caster option for that.

BurgerBeast
2017-03-26, 12:27 PM
There isn't a non-caster option for that.

There is, by definition, a non-caster option, because I said "least" dependent. So of the non-caster classes, in your opinion, which would function best (not well - best)?

mgshamster
2017-03-26, 12:53 PM
There is, by definition, a non-caster option, because I said "least" dependent. So of the non-caster classes, in your opinion, which would function best (not well - best)?

If you wanted to attack, then any martial with only one stat requirement (either strength or Dex).

Personally, I'd go thief. You would only need Dex, and just having it at 14 is good enough. Then use your bonus actions for other stuff (like getting away or helping allies via use an object). Your expertise can be put in skills you want to excel in that you have a higher stat.

And if you really wanted to, you could even ignore Dex, pick up magic initiate, and grab an attack cantrip that uses whatever your highest mental stat is.

Or, as a second option, just throw in straight 12s to all your stats and be a well rounded character. You'll do just fine in the game with any class.

Citan
2017-03-26, 02:17 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies. To provide clarity (I hope) I meant, at least in theory and insofar as it is possible, a character for whom ability scores matter the least.

In other words, if I just want to be able to assign the initial ability scores however I want (because I want to play a wise, charismatic character, or because I want to play a strong, intelligent character), which class(es) best facilitates this?

It seemed likely to me that the answer would boil down to a caster that specializes in spells with no save. But I wanted to also consider non-casters.

Essentially I wanted to know which classes would give freedom to build the rest of the character however I want - from ability score placement to feat and skill choices. So, in answer to the ability score question: they shouldn't matter. The player would still get to roll or use the standard array, but you (the commenter) would have no control over where the scores ended up assigned.

You might think of it as: which class is best if you have to choose it first, there will never be an ASI (only feats), but then abilities, skills, and feats are randomly assigned (edit: race also)?

Edit: they wouldn't be randomly assigned, though. They'd be chosen by a player who chooses solely for character reasons - not for optimizing.
As long as feats are allowed in your game, most classes will do.
INT? go Wizard with Shocking Grasp and be done with it.
CHA? Valor Bard or Tome Warlock if you really want to be the less possible dependent (to get Shillelagh).
WIS? Nature Cleric, Druid, Monk with Magic Initiate welcomes you.
STR/DEX/other (like balanced stats across the board): see Fighter and Rogue for well-rounded, Barbarian and Ranger for more extremes. :)

Enjoy!

BurgerBeast
2017-03-26, 02:35 PM
As long as feats are allowed in your game, most classes will do.
INT? go Wizard with Shocking Grasp and be done with it.
CHA? Valor Bard or Tome Warlock if you really want to be the less possible dependent (to get Shillelagh).
WIS? Nature Cleric, Druid, Monk with Magic Initiate welcomes you.
STR/DEX/other (like balanced stats across the board): see Fighter and Rogue for well-rounded, Barbarian and Ranger for more extremes. :)

Enjoy!

Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?

RickAllison
2017-03-26, 03:33 PM
Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?

That can work with a few things. If multiclassing and Elemental Evil Player's Companion are allowed, a magically-inclined Fighter or Rogue can work with either a feat, Druid 1, or Nature Cleric 1 for Wisdom or Tomelock 3 for Charisma to pick up Shillelagh (Fighter) or Magic Stone (kind of for Fighter, but mainly for Rogue). Int would be a little bit tricky to accomplish without being a dedicated caster, while the Fighter or Rogue are general enough that you can make them work with Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, or Charisma.

In general, one or two-level dips can make a lot of unorthodox builds possible if you have 13s for the appropriate stats (which is just north of average for a PC). Warlock 2 for Eldritch Blast can make anyone with a decent Charisma viable for combat (not amazing, but we don't care about that) while the rest of the build can focus on RP-related stuff. For Wisdom, Nature Cleric 1 for Shillelagh and heavy armor can make a main class with Extra Attack viable and a little bit resilient while the rest of the build focuses elsewhere (but loses the Rage damage bonus if you want to go Barbarian) while Druid 1 (or Magic Initiate)/Arcana Cleric 1 for Shillelagh+Booming Blade lets any other class be resilient enough. If you have Intelligence, then you will have to make do with wizard cantrips. You won't be contributing nearly as much as other builds will be, but you won't be useless and even just Wizard 1 or Magic Initiate gives utility while keeping it as simply the PC dabbling while being focused on the main class.

If you can't multiclass, then Moon Druid. You can contribute to combat at least twice per short rest, your Wisdom is just a nice bonus that only restricts your daily spell selection (no saving throw or attack spells, leaving things like Goodberry), and the other ability scores are only bonuses. Just like any build, having a terrible Con is dangerous, but you have a better chance than other classes with the same.

Vogonjeltz
2017-03-26, 04:59 PM
I've had PCs who dumped con. They did just fine.

And I've had buffing characters who didn't really care about their casting stat.

PCs with poor constitution who do fine just got lucky and never hit a really tight scrape.

Citan
2017-03-26, 05:09 PM
Except that the idea is for you to choose the class first (i.e. before you know the ability score, feats, etc.). So if you knew that 1000 different people were going to make purely RP choices about their characters in terms of ability scores, backgrounds, skills, and feats... which class do you think could best handle the varied options?
Well then...
1) If multiclassing and feats are both forbidden, then Cleric and Wizard are probably the best. Between Domains/School choices and spell selection, while having a good Intelligence/Wisdom would be better, it can still work with average statistics.

2) If feats are allowed, Fighter obviously, because he can stack several feats to shape it as you wish: charismatic leader? Inspiring Leader, Observant. Bruiser? Charger, Tough, etc. Tactician? Manoeuver Initiate, Mage Slayer, Alert. Wiseman? Magic Initiate: Cleric or Druid, Observant, etc...

3) Feats/multiclass are allowed...
Then anything works really. This is actually the best imo when you want to builds a character from the concept: first define your concept, then determine your stats, then see what fits into it. Most ability score combinations will still allow you to take at least 2 classes, one caster and one non-caster, so you can usually achieve 90% of any concept you may have.

Asmotherion
2017-03-26, 05:34 PM
The safest bet would be Moon Druid. You can be an excelent Tank wile Animal Shaped, and also cast buff and healing spells.

More or less any Buffer-Focused character can play his role well without crazy Ability Scores, but the Druid can also deal damage and take damage for the party.

As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.

Addaran
2017-03-26, 06:21 PM
As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.

Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.

RickAllison
2017-03-26, 07:32 PM
Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.

Sun Soul could do a little better (at least it can stay far away), but you are right on that. Paladin would be similarly hard.

mgshamster
2017-03-26, 09:44 PM
PCs with poor constitution who do fine just got lucky and never hit a really tight scrape.

This is a very swingy edition. *Every* character that does fine is one who just gets lucky.

Citan
2017-03-27, 06:25 AM
The safest bet would be Moon Druid. You can be an excelent Tank wile Animal Shaped, and also cast buff and healing spells.

More or less any Buffer-Focused character can play his role well without crazy Ability Scores, but the Druid can also deal damage and take damage for the party.

As a non-caster, I think a monk will survive better than most. I don't really do non-casters, though (like, ever), so it's not my place to give advice about them.
Honestly, I had a NPC Moon Druid, level 3, fight a PC Monk 1 / Cleric 1, and he got totally wasted.
Granted, the NPC didn't want to fight in the first place, so he didn't go on the offensive as he could: he cast Hold Person and succeed for a turn but didn't take advantage of it.
With that said, his Wild Shape was near useless (had only one use left): he transformed into a Brown Bear, supposedly the best "ratio" creature for AC/HP. My player launched a successful Inflict Wounds and rolled near max (26/30 damage). Druid hit only one of his Multiattack, and on next turn player made one strong attack, putting Druid out of Shape, then finishing him off with a critical (:facepalm:).

So, granted, I was out of luck (NPC missed most of his actions) while my player was on fire (+1 Perception mod but proficient, rolled >20 each time the Druid tried to hide after going into spider form and putting himself outside of view... Then succeeded on most attacks).

And I certainly did not take the best course of action (retrospectively, the NPC should just have bumped the player unconscious while he Held him since he was sure to hit&critical, then tie him up and take a time to wonder what to do next... Instead of just trying to persuade him to calm down XD).

But still, as far as direct confrontation go, I really didn't feel the supposed "tankiness" of Moon Druid wild shaped as CR 1 creature. Brown Bear lasted exactly one round, on 1 vs 1. XD
Lesson of the day: when luck really is not on your side, there is little you can do about it.:smallbiggrin:



Monk would probably be the worst type of character to have if you don't have good (or in the right place) stats. You'd have horrible AC (and unlike barbarian, you can't just use armor) and you're kinda expected to go in melee.
Well, the thing is, unless you really build it in such a way because you want a weak character, in which case the problem lies not in class but in character concept, the Monk would actually fare pretty well.
Because even with poor stats, you would probably have at least a good score in DEX and an average WIS, putting your AC in the 13-15 range which is not good, but not ugly either.
Before you have a chance to bump your DEX/WIS, you could either...
- Start as Variant Human and take Defensive Duelist (better defense as a reaction) or Magic Initiate: Sorcerer/Wizard (Mage Armor), depending on your starting DEX.
- Multiclass into Fighter and forego your Unarmored and bonus action Martial Arts for some time to wield medium armor (by far the worst solution since you lose both bonus action attack and Unarmored but still better than dying and supposedly you have better AC like this than unarmored, especially since you could wield a shield).
- Mainly use ranged attacks (daggers) when you have no chance of doing 1 to 1 fight (second worst solution because again, you lose bonus action attack, but at least you retain everything else)
- Or go as is and use your Ki solely on Dodge bonus action in critical times.

Sun Soul Monk would have very little problem with low AC because he can use his Ki to make 2 bonus action attacks.
Long Death Monk could mitigate his low AC with THP every few rounds.
4 Elements Monk could mitigate low AC by extending his reach (although it makes fire damage).
Shadow Monk could mitigate his low AC by casting Darkness on a pendant/ring before he wears it (provided he has darkvision obviously).

And as Monk progresses, he gains powerful no-resource defensive features and more Ki to fuel Dodge/Dash/Disengage bonus action. So past the 4-5 first levels, he would be fine most of the time.

Addaran
2017-03-27, 09:36 AM
Well, the thing is, unless you really build it in such a way because you want a weak character, in which case the problem lies not in class but in character concept, the Monk would actually fare pretty well.
Because even with poor stats, you would probably have at least a good score in DEX and an average WIS, putting your AC in the 13-15 range which is not good, but not ugly either.
Before you have a chance to bump your DEX/WIS, you could either...
- Start as Variant Human and take Defensive Duelist (better defense as a reaction) or Magic Initiate: Sorcerer/Wizard (Mage Armor), depending on your starting DEX.
- Multiclass into Fighter and forego your Unarmored and bonus action Martial Arts for some time to wield medium armor (by far the worst solution since you lose both bonus action attack and Unarmored but still better than dying and supposedly you have better AC like this than unarmored, especially since you could wield a shield).
- Mainly use ranged attacks (daggers) when you have no chance of doing 1 to 1 fight (second worst solution because again, you lose bonus action attack, but at least you retain everything else)
- Or go as is and use your Ki solely on Dodge bonus action in critical times.

Sun Soul Monk would have very little problem with low AC because he can use his Ki to make 2 bonus action attacks.
Long Death Monk could mitigate his low AC with THP every few rounds.
4 Elements Monk could mitigate low AC by extending his reach (although it makes fire damage).
Shadow Monk could mitigate his low AC by casting Darkness on a pendant/ring before he wears it (provided he has darkvision obviously).

And as Monk progresses, he gains powerful no-resource defensive features and more Ki to fuel Dodge/Dash/Disengage bonus action. So past the 4-5 first levels, he would be fine most of the time.

That's the point on the thread though, the OP's players might go for a charismatic intelligent monk from what he seems to imply. In which case, monk is probably the worst class possible. 13-15 really isn't that awesome, with the same stats, a dragon sorcerer or someone with mage armor with already have that, with the same stats.


Regarding shadow monk, darkvision won't work, since it's magical darkness. You need warlock levels for devil's sight or other kind of senses.

Citan
2017-03-27, 11:32 AM
That's the point on the thread though, the OP's players might go for a charismatic intelligent monk from what he seems to imply. In which case, monk is probably the worst class possible. 13-15 really isn't that awesome, with the same stats, a dragon sorcerer or someone with mage armor with already have that, with the same stats.


Regarding shadow monk, darkvision won't work, since it's magical darkness. You need warlock levels for devil's sight or other kind of senses.
Is it though?
Sure, it will not work great especially on the few first levels, but even if you have to sacrifice your Ki to focus on defense, by level 14 you get Evasion for DEX saves and proficiency in all saves. Only a Paladin decently built could trump that. ;)
And as I said, as long as feats are a thing, there are several ways to mitigate the main problem which is AC while keeping efficient in your everyday thing (which is attacking).

On the contrary, a Sorcerer will have to choose between similar AC but good CHA, or better AC but average CHA. Which means either crappy DC or using his Sorcery points for Heightened.

So as you see, in both cases, you have at the same time an "ability problem" and built-in solutions to deal with it. ;)

Good note about Shadow, forgot about the limitation of natural darkvision.