Expanded Wisdom (Medicine) Uses [PEACH]

[GalacticAxekick]

As part of an ongoing project to give the martial classes more options without magic or resource pools, I've been brainstorming expanded uses for Wisdom (Medicine) (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk_qMLV3e). Martial characters have extremely few support options, and Medicine seemed like a practical area to start rectifying this:

Detailing each of the actions:
Stabilizing dying creatures is already available in the core rules. This the party's last defence against death, besides magical means.
Healing stable creatures is new. Because it's weaker than but also faster than short rests, it's meant to help return stable creatures to the fight and stave off immediate death. It can potentially heal quite a lot of hit points at once, at higher levels (average 45 with +0 Con, or 95 with +5 Con, assuming d8 hit dice) meaning it can easily out-heal incoming damage and is well worth the action economy in my opinion.
Treating disease or poison is new. It's effectively the same as granting Advantage on the next save the target makes (rolling the save an addition time, taking the highest result) except that the healer is always proficient in the save (a Medicine check!) while the afflicted might not be (a Constitution save).
Self care is new. It serves to let the healer heal themself and treat their own disease, though they certainly can't stabilise themselves or heal themselves to regain consciousness.

Killing dying creatures will rarely come up, since most foes drop dead at 0 hit points anyway. But when it does come up—with important NPCs, for instance—it is a faster and more discrete way to kill than simply hacking at them while they make saves.
Inducing coma is similarly situational, since most foes will spend very little time unconscious and skip straight to dead. But when it does come up—again, mostly with NPCs—it's a discrete and clean way to put a threat out of commission. 1d20 + the usual 1d4 means, with a lucky roll, you can knock someone out for exactly 24 hours.
Aggravating wounds is situational tool to deal with foes that can regenerate, and who have healers of their own on their side. It also denies the foe the benefits of their next rest, which can mean a target who gets away might not make it far.
Aggravating disease and poison makes saving throws harder. Suffer.
Torture is probably the least nice way to reap the benefits of the "charmed" condition.

[PotatoGolem]

The problem is that most of the useful abilities can be used by a healer's kit instead, and the DC for everything is still 10. As I see it in games, Medicine is usually thought of as a wasted proficiency because the actual check DCs are so low that an untrained person with good wis will usually succeed and the whole thing can be obviated by just buying a cheap healer's kit. This fix doesn't address that (and may even make it worse)

[GalacticAxekick]

The problem is that most of the useful abilities can be used by a healer's kit instead, and the DC for everything is still 10. As I see it in games, Medicine is usually thought of as a wasted proficiency because the actual check DCs are so low that an untrained person with good wis will usually succeed and the whole thing can be obviated by just buying a cheap healer's kit. This fix doesn't address that (and may even make it worse)Makes sense! My concern was the absence of non-magical support options, and I hadn't thought too much about making balancing Wisdom (Medicine) against the healer's kit.

I'll see what I can do to make Wisdom (Medicine) a more attractive skill proficiency.

[Crisis21]

Hmm... I guess one way is to make a chart of Medicine DCs


Scrapes and Bruises/Common Cold (0)
Basic First Aid/Common Disease (5)
Flesh Wound/Uncommon Disease (10)
Broken Bone/Rare Disease (15)
Compound Fracture/Very Rare Disease (20)
Punctured Organ/Exotic Disease (25)
Surgical Procedure/Unheard of Disease (30)


Common Medicine Check Modifiers

Critical Condition (+5, patient may die if you fail the roll)
Dangerous Surroundings (+5, plus you are considered helpless against attacks)
Delicate Procedure (You must make an additional concentration check, where failing may mean you further injure or even kill your patient)
Improvised Tools (-2, replaces Medical Tools)
Medical Tools (-5)
Surgeon's Tools (-10, replaces Medical Tools)
Assistant Healer (Add their proficiency to your own)
Assistant Nurse (Only if Tools are involved, -5)

[GalacticAxekick]

Hmm... I guess one way is to make a chart of Medicine DCs

Scrapes and Bruises/Common Cold (0)
Basic First Aid/Common Disease (5)
Flesh Wound/Uncommon Disease (10)
Broken Bone/Rare Disease (15)
Compound Fracture/Very Rare Disease (20)
Punctured Organ/Exotic Disease (25)
Surgical Procedure/Unheard of Disease (30)Not a bad idea! But keeping track of specific wounds is uncommon in 5e. Without overhauling the entire hit point system, a practical non-magical medic will need to tackle healing from a perspective of hit points, conditions, and states of stability, rather than fractions, punctures and wounds.


Common Medicine Check Modifiers

Critical Condition (+5, patient may die if you fail the roll)
Dangerous Surroundings (+5, plus you are considered helpless against attacks)
Delicate Procedure (You must make an additional concentration check, where failing may mean you further injure or even kill your patient)
Improvised Tools (-2, replaces Medical Tools)
Medical Tools (-5)
Surgeon's Tools (-10, replaces Medical Tools)
Assistant Healer (Add their proficiency to your own)
Assistant Nurse (Only if Tools are involved, -5)Bounded accuracy. 5e almost strictly avoids numerical modifiers except for ability and proficiency bonuses. Advantage and Disadvantage are the standard measures of circumstantial effects (such as Advantage from equipment or assistance, Disadvantage from impairment or harassment).

Modifiers such as these not only go against the simplicity 5e design hopes for, but also threaten the game's balance. Adding an assistant's proficiency, for instance, means two Rogues could make a check with a +29 bonus (+5 Wis, +12 from one Rogue's Expertise in Medicine and +12 from the second Rogue). In a game where a DC 30 check is considered the highest difficulty a mortal can hope to surmount, that's unacceptable.

[Crisis21]

Not a bad idea! But keeping track of specific wounds is uncommon in 5e. Without overhauling the entire hit point system, a practical non-magical medic will need to tackle healing from a perspective of hit points, conditions, and states of stability, rather than fractions, punctures and wounds.

Bounded accuracy. 5e almost strictly avoids numerical modifiers except for ability and proficiency bonuses. Advantage and Disadvantage are the standard measures of circumstantial effects (such as Advantage from equipment or assistance, Disadvantage from impairment or harassment).

Modifiers such as these not only go against the simplicity 5e design hopes for, but also threaten the game's balance. Adding an assistant's proficiency, for instance, means two Rogues could make a check with a +29 bonus (+5 Wis, +12 from one Rogue's Expertise in Medicine and +12 from the second Rogue). In a game where a DC 30 check is considered the highest difficulty a mortal can hope to surmount, that's unacceptable.

Just figured I'd offer a few examples.

Still learning 5e personally, so my apologies.

In that vein:


Advantage:
Using Proper Medical Tools
Being Assisted By Another with the Medicine Skill

Disadvantage:
No Medical Tools
Failing a Concentration Check (if one is required)
If You, Yourself, Are Intoxicated/Poisoned
In a Moving Vehicle

[GalacticAxekick]

Just figured I'd offer a few examples.

Still learning 5e personally, so my apologies.No need to apologize! Not like you slighted anyone. I just wanted to let you know why those suggestions probably wouldn't work in 5e, even if they'd be great in previous editions.


In that vein:

Advantage:
Using Proper Medical Tools
Being Assisted By Another with the Medicine Skill

Disadvantage:
No Medical Tools
Failing a Concentration Check (if one is required)
If You, Yourself, Are Intoxicated/Poisoned
In a Moving VehicleTo be clear, Advantage and Disadvantage are meant to be pretty easy to apply as circumstances come up. There are no tables for what circumstance give your Stealth checks Advantage and Disadvantage, for example, there are inummerable possibilities (Loud flooring? Jingle equipment? Colourful clothes? Disadvantage, probably. Noisy room? Crowd? Distracted people? Advantage, probably)

5e systems focus less on circumstantial bonuses and penalties and more on how a skill/feature/spell/save operates normally. With this thread, I hope to brainstorm more uses for Wisdom (Medicine), because in 5e, its only uses are for stabilizing a dying creature and what you might call knowledge checks (diagnosing illness, identifying poisons, diseases and cures, etc).

Some uses I came up with were healing, curing poison and curing diseasse, as well as a set of "malpractice" uses that invert these (killing dying creatures, preventing healing, aggravating poison and disease). So right now, uses of Wisdom (Medicine) besides these and fine-tuning these for 5e balance would be the best input.

[Crisis21]

No need to apologize! Not like you slighted anyone. I just wanted to let you know why those suggestions probably wouldn't work in 5e, even if they'd be great in previous editions.

To be clear, Advantage and Disadvantage are meant to be pretty easy to apply as circumstances come up. There are no tables for what circumstance give your Stealth checks Advantage and Disadvantage, for example, there are inummerable possibilities (Loud flooring? Jingle equipment? Colourful clothes? Disadvantage, probably. Noisy room? Crowd? Distracted people? Advantage, probably)

5e systems focus less on circumstantial bonuses and penalties and more on how a skill/feature/spell/save operates normally. With this thread, I hope to brainstorm more uses for Wisdom (Medicine), because in 5e, its only uses are for stabilizing a dying creature and what you might call knowledge checks (diagnosing illness, identifying poisons, diseases and cures, etc).

Some uses I came up with were healing, curing poison and curing diseasse, as well as a set of "malpractice" uses that invert these (killing dying creatures, preventing healing, aggravating poison and disease). So right now, uses of Wisdom (Medicine) besides these and fine-tuning these for 5e balance would be the best input.

Then I guess take those as examples of situations that would merit advantage/disadvantage. :P

Edit: I suppose one possibility is to link a Medicine Check to how effective spent Hit Die are during a short rest. Like, say, after making the roll you subtract the DC (and possibly divide by two?) and then add that number to how much hp is regained per hit die during a short rest. And failure reduces the effectiveness in the same way. Plus, you (or a fellow party member on your behalf) must make a Medicine check if you want to recover hp this way.