Hexblade Warlock 1/Stone Sorcerer X - better than a Paladin/Sorcerer?

[Klorox]

Allow me to start off by saying I absolutely love Gastronmie's character concept guide here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass. PeteNutButter and DivisibeByZero have also helped a ton with advising me. Thank you to all three of you guys, plus anybody else who's advised me on some level over my many years of playing D&D.

I finally have the chance to actually play this concept, but I was told UA is allowed. The concept, in case you're not interested in following the link, is to have a front line capable warrior who can dish out tons of nova damage, pretty much at will, through the smite ability as well as using quicken spell or twin spell to cast green flame blade or booming blade, essentially getting a limited multi-attack before a fighter, barbarian, ranger or paladin (warlock 1/sorcerer 3).

I was working out the details with a friend, but I wanted to post it here to be sure it works.

Background: I play in a Adventurer's League style game (point buy, pretty much by the books), but the DM allows Unearthed Arcana, as well as ignoring the PHB +1 rule.

My concept is to use levels in stone sorcerer, a sorcerer class that can change his AC to 13 + CON as a bonus action, as well as at least 1 level of hexblade warlock, a warlock type that allows you to use CHA instead of STR or DEX for melee weapon attacks.

Removing the paladin class from this build allows me to concentrate on two key ability scores, CON and CHA. Nothing else matters nearly as much. Since I can now take war caster as my feat at level 1, I can use every ASI to improve one of these two ability scores.

Level 1:
STR 8 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 16
Race: variant human (take the war caster feat)
Skills: Since there are no CON skills, it's a great idea to take full advantage of your high CHA and make sure you have all three social skills.
Class: sorcerer or warlock. Your choice really comes down to whether or not you want to be proficient in either CON saves (sorcerer) or WIS saves (warlock). Of note is the fact we're aiming for a 20 CON in this build. You start with 10 HP as a sorcerer, a 16 AC (18 if you can scrape together 10 GP for a shield). You start with 11 HP as a warlock, a 12 AC, and slightly better equipment. You'll hit harder as a level 1 warlock (CHA to hit/damage). In the long run, you'll have 1 more total HP for starting as a warlock, but it won't matter beyond that. Since there will be no lasting difference, I suggest warlock for the very minor bump.

Warlock patron: any of them will work with this character. Fiend grants temporary hit points if you drop an enemy (which you'll do a lot), Fey can make a lot of enemies afraid of you, and the telepathy granted by the Great Old One is fantastic out of combat (and can synergize nicely with your social skills).

Level 2: sorcerer 1/warlock 1. This is where the fun begins. You now don't need armor. Your AC is 18 with a shield. That jumps to 23 if you want to burn a shield spell.

The stone sorcerer can choose a different smite spell from spell levels 1-4. I recommend at least one of each at each level. Instead of the paladin/sorcerer dropping spells to use the smite ability, you can actually just cast the individual smite spells. These all deal different types of damage, which can help you bypass enemy resistances.

At level 4 (sorcerer 3/warlock 1), you can begin using the metamagic twinned spell to cast spells like booming blade twice. Feel free to use a bonus action to add in a smite spell here.

I see no real reason to continue with any warlock levels. I think the benefits of sorcerer are just better.

All that being said, this character concept is in its infancy (at least it is for me, others may have done this already).

Is this better, worse, or equal to the paladin 2/ sorcerer X idea?

I can't wait to read the responses.

[Corran]

The stone sorcerer can choose a different smite spell from spell levels 1-4. I recommend at least one of each at each level. Instead of the paladin/sorcerer dropping spells to use the smite ability, you can actually just cast the individual smite spells. These all deal different types of damage, which can help you bypass enemy resistances.

Keep in mind, that the smite spells typically take up concentration, so that might no go down all that well when you start getting access to good concentration spells, that you typically want to cast from the first round of an encounter.

I think the build might be a bit squishy, but perhaps AoA will help with that. Still, if it turns out that it isn't enough, you might as well quicken a blade ward as long as your AoA has temp hp remaining.

ps: Haven't checked hexblade. How do they get to attack with cha? Is it an always on ability, or sth like shillelagh that takes an action of some sort to activate?

[djreynolds]

If there was an ability cap, yes. But since there is, I'm not sure it matters.

[Klorox]

Keep in mind, that the smite spells typically take up concentration, so that might no go down all that well when you start getting access to good concentration spells, that you typically want to cast from the first round of an encounter.

I think the build might be a bit squishy, but perhaps AoA will help with that. Still, if it turns out that it isn't enough, you might as well quicken a blade ward as long as your AoA has temp hp remaining.

ps: Haven't checked hexblade. How do they get to attack with cha? Is it an always on ability, or sth like shillelagh that takes an action of some sort to activate?

I'm not sure about squishy. A paladin with a 16 CON gets 9 hp a level. This character gets 8, and ASI's dictate that his CON will get higher (where in the classic paladin/sorcerer, you need to use your first ASI on the war caster feat, and you will be concentrating on bumping your STR and CHA before CON).

The smite restrictions are very valid. I think the paladin might deal more damage.

The hexblade warlock just automatically can choose to use CHA instead of DEX or STR. It doesn't take an action.

Relevant links:

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf

[Klorox]

Side note; going with a final build of warlock 1/paladin 2/sorcerer X is still real nice. But you're delaying your spells and ASI's, and you need a 13 STR to multiclass.

[Klorox]

If there was an ability cap, yes. But since there is, I'm not sure it matters.

I don't understand.

[Corran]

I'm not sure about squishy. A paladin with a 16 CON gets 9 hp a level. This character gets 8, and ASI's dictate that his CON will get higher.
Yep, hit points look good, AC also looks good. If you are planning on spending a lot of time in the frontline, maybe raising CON before CHA might be a good idea? I dunno... I would say to grab resilient wis but I see that you are thinking of starting as a warlock. Ofc resilient would come at the cost of a cha/con bump, so not sure if it's a good idea anyway. Damn, for some reason I think the con bumps are more important than the cha bumps for this build, no matter how crazy that may sound.



The hexblade warlock just automatically can choose to use CHA instead of DEX or STR. It doesn't take an action.

Relevant links:

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf
Thanks for the links. Mmmm, hexblade seems strong. With the temp hp from AoE and from the hexblade's curse, maybe go with fey/old one instead of fiend?


Side note; going with a final build of warlock 1/paladin 2/sorcerer X is still real nice. But you're delaying your spells and ASI's, and you need a 13 STR to multiclass.
Dont think its worth it, although being able to smite could work well with that 19-20 crit range from the hexblade.
(It would allow you a +1 AC even after you manage to max CON, and it would net you 2 more HP than if starting as a warlock, it would also give you some good 1st level spells, most of which will lose value though the more sorcerer levels you gain, and the ability to smite -at no concentration cost-, though you would delay your spell progression and your ASI's singnificantly, as well as lower dex and wis which relate to some very useful skills and good saves). Personaly,I think I would skip the paladin dip, but dont take my word for it.

[djreynolds]

I don't understand.

Your charisma is only going to 20.

Yeah you might get some extra feats out of it by having charisma for attack/damage/spell casting, or a higher con...

But without 15 in strength you can't wear heavy armor so you then you have to have least a 14 dex for breast plate and medium armor

At the end of the day, you cannot dump both strength and dex with the hex blade just because of armor class needs.

But what you could do, is go dwarven cleric 1 grab heavy armor and leave strength at 8 and dex at 8. Then grab hex blade/sorcerer.

Hill dwarf cleric 1/ hex blade 3/ sorcerer 16

[Klorox]

Your charisma is only going to 20.

Yeah you might get some extra feats out of it by having charisma for attack/damage/spell casting, or a higher con...

But without 15 in strength you can't wear heavy armor so you then you have to have least a 14 dex for breast plate and medium armor

At the end of the day, you cannot dump both strength and dex with the hex blade just because of armor class needs.

But what you could do, is go dwarven cleric 1 grab heavy armor and leave strength at 8 and dex at 8. Then grab hex blade/sorcerer.

Hill dwarf cleric 1/ hex blade 3/ sorcerer 16

Going stone sorcerer negates the need for armor or DEX. It changes your unarmored AC calculation to 13 + CON, plus shield.

[djreynolds]

Going stone sorcerer negates the need for armor or DEX. It changes your on armored AC calculation to 13 + CON, plus shield.

Then go for hexblade/stone sorcerer, I'm sorry I didn't realize the stone sorcerer stuff.

If you start sorcerer you have con and charisma saves covered. Snagging resilient wisdom at some point should be easy.

Paladin/sorcerer has been done to death. Hexblade has some cool stuff and spells that sorcerer doesn't have to select now

Your build is fine.

But adding in a level of cleric does give you some sweet spells like shield of faith or whatever you like

[Klorox]

Then go for hexblade/stone sorcerer, I'm sorry I didn't realize the stone sorcerer stuff.

If you start sorcerer you have con and charisma saves covered. Snagging resilient wisdom at some point should be easy.

Paladin/sorcerer has been done to death. Hexblade has some cool stuff and spells that sorcerer doesn't have to select now

Your build is fine.

But adding in a level of cleric does give you some sweet spells like shield of faith or whatever you like
Thanks man. The only other reason I would consider warlock at level one over sorcerer is that I will be able to resist concentration saves very well, even without being proficient.

I will have a very high CON, as well as the war caster feat.

[djreynolds]

You know what, I still like the my idea

Hill dwarf will give you +2 con and toughness, and +1 wisdom and no strength requirement for heavy armor

Cleric gives heavy armor, and any 1st level cleric spell you wish to prepare that day and some good cantrips

And hill dwarf will give you darkvision

But more importantly, this allows you to buff up charisma to 20 ASAP and in the meantime from 1st level till 8th, you can run around in heavy armor/shield until you constitution score gets to 18-20

[skaddix]

Why take Cleric over Paladin if we are talking dips?

As for the OP yeah it works but isn't the bonus of taking Paladin you get Smite.

You cant get smite as a Hexblade until you hit lvl 3.

[djreynolds]

Why take Cleric over Paladin if we are talking dips?

As for the OP yeah it works but isn't the bonus of taking Paladin you get Smite.

You cant get smite as a Hexblade until you hit lvl 3.

For me, there is no strength minimum of 13.

I believe Klorox's plan is to run this
STR 8 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 16
Race: variant human (take the war caster feat)

And get basically the equivalent of mage armor/dex 18AC, but stone sorcerer +3/con and add in a shield
Its awesome, but going from level 1 is different. Chainmail and shield is AC18 from level 1 on, and +2 from shield of faith and works with his wisdom score of 13

Klorox makes good characters so I'm sure this will work.

[skaddix]

Well sure but doesn't hexblade give you medium armor and shields and instead of shield of faith you got armor of agathys.

[djreynolds]

Well sure but doesn't hexblade give you medium armor and shields and instead of shield of faith you got armor of agathys.

He could have both and choose.

The classes seem to go together, and it will work. Hex blade and stone sorcerer looks cool, so it should work.

Could start with 16AC as a sorcerer but either way he is waiting til around 4th level for the shield proficiency (3 for hex blade's medium armor and 1 for stone sorcerer Stone's durability)

So can he survive till 4th level, sure.

[Klorox]

Why take Cleric over Paladin if we are talking dips?

As for the OP yeah it works but isn't the bonus of taking Paladin you get Smite.

You cant get smite as a Hexblade until you hit lvl 3.

You don't need hexblade smites, the stone sorcerer can choose smite spells from levels 1-4.

On a side note, I'd consider two levels of warlock for some invocation fun. Heck, you'd be even better at range; boosting your eldritch blasts.

[skaddix]

Yeah but stone smites require concentrations. So good early but crap later on.

[djreynolds]

I like the concept.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Allow me to start off by saying I absolutely love Gastronmie's character concept guide here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass. PeteNutButter and DivisibeByZero have also helped a ton with advising me. Thank you to all three of you guys, plus anybody else who's advised me on some level over my many years of playing D&D.

I finally have the chance to actually play this concept, but I was told UA is allowed. The concept, in case you're not interested in following the link, is to have a front line capable warrior who can dish out tons of nova damage, pretty much at will, through the smite ability as well as using quicken spell or twin spell to cast green flame blade or booming blade, essentially getting a limited multi-attack before a fighter, barbarian, ranger or paladin (warlock 1/sorcerer 3).

I was working out the details with a friend, but I wanted to post it here to be sure it works.

Background: I play in a Adventurer's League style game (point buy, pretty much by the books), but the DM allows Unearthed Arcana, as well as ignoring the PHB +1 rule.

My concept is to use levels in stone sorcerer, a sorcerer class that can change his AC to 13 + CON as a bonus action, as well as at least 1 level of hexblade warlock, a warlock type that allows you to use CHA instead of STR or DEX for melee weapon attacks.

Removing the paladin class from this build allows me to concentrate on two key ability scores, CON and CHA. Nothing else matters nearly as much. Since I can now take war caster as my feat at level 1, I can use every ASI to improve one of these two ability scores.

Level 1:
STR 8 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 16
Race: variant human (take the war caster feat)
Skills: Since there are no CON skills, it's a great idea to take full advantage of your high CHA and make sure you have all three social skills.
Class: sorcerer or warlock. Your choice really comes down to whether or not you want to be proficient in either CON saves (sorcerer) or WIS saves (warlock). Of note is the fact we're aiming for a 20 CON in this build. You start with 10 HP as a sorcerer, a 16 AC (18 if you can scrape together 10 GP for a shield). You start with 11 HP as a warlock, a 12 AC, and slightly better equipment. You'll hit harder as a level 1 warlock (CHA to hit/damage). In the long run, you'll have 1 more total HP for starting as a warlock, but it won't matter beyond that. Since there will be no lasting difference, I suggest warlock for the very minor bump.

Warlock patron: any of them will work with this character. Fiend grants temporary hit points if you drop an enemy (which you'll do a lot), Fey can make a lot of enemies afraid of you, and the telepathy granted by the Great Old One is fantastic out of combat (and can synergize nicely with your social skills).

Level 2: sorcerer 1/warlock 1. This is where the fun begins. You now don't need armor. Your AC is 18 with a shield. That jumps to 23 if you want to burn a shield spell.

The stone sorcerer can choose a different smite spell from spell levels 1-4. I recommend at least one of each at each level. Instead of the paladin/sorcerer dropping spells to use the smite ability, you can actually just cast the individual smite spells. These all deal different types of damage, which can help you bypass enemy resistances.

At level 4 (sorcerer 3/warlock 1), you can begin using the metamagic twinned spell to cast spells like booming blade twice. Feel free to use a bonus action to add in a smite spell here.

I see no real reason to continue with any warlock levels. I think the benefits of sorcerer are just better.

All that being said, this character concept is in its infancy (at least it is for me, others may have done this already).

Is this better, worse, or equal to the paladin 2/ sorcerer X idea?

I can't wait to read the responses.

I really like the concept you have, its a type of character I've always wanted to play. However, there are a couple of things here i think you need to know.

1. Hexblade IS the patron. so you aren't choosing fiend or GOO or fey as well, you choose Hexblade.

2. while i agree you don' need much more warlock levels, just 1 more gets you Devils Sight, and another invocation. I see the focus here isn't on ranged options but if you ever needed to could grab repellent blast and push a person with EB.

I think the build is in general on par with the paladin....maybe. smiting with higher spell slots is a lot of nova, and could do 2 attacks a turn.... I still say its about even though. It's got more flavor too it.

[Spiritchaser]

I know this gets done to death, but quickened agonizing blast is great. Taking another level of Warlock gets you this, and gives you devils sight.

I would hesitate to play any character without darkvision, and any human I played would have to be a Warlock...

You are a front line warrior. Were this my campaign, you could expect to be the target of a grapple or shove... Maybe it averages out to once per day.

You have neither strength nor dex, so have a plan and be aware of where you can't go. Misty step and feather fall would be wise.

[Klorox]

I really like the concept you have, its a type of character I've always wanted to play. However, there are a couple of things here i think you need to know.

1. Hexblade IS the patron. so you aren't choosing fiend or GOO or fey as well, you choose Hexblade.

2. while i agree you don' need much more warlock levels, just 1 more gets you Devils Sight, and another invocation. I see the focus here isn't on ranged options but if you ever needed to could grab repellent blast and push a person with EB.

I think the build is in general on par with the paladin....maybe. smiting with higher spell slots is a lot of nova, and could do 2 attacks a turn.... I still say its about even though. It's got more flavor too it.

Thanks. I kind of threw this together during a slow evening shift last night.

If this works out, maybe I'll make a guide or something.

The fact that these smites are all concentration is a problem in my book.

[joaber]

Thanks. I kind of threw this together during a slow evening shift last night.

If this works out, maybe I'll make a guide or something.

The fact that these smites are all concentration is a problem in my book.

I think the smite they talking about is divine smite, or new warlock invocations that do the same (but stronger). You don't need concentration, neither bonus action and can use after the hit (and see the crit).
But you can't get none of those invocations as hexblade and use Cha to attack at same time. But you could go for 2 levels as paladin to get divine smite.

In my opinion, smite spells are terrible options, just quick or twin booming blade instead. Is way more damage for less cost.

[Callin]

I would do Warlock 2 just for the second short rest 1st level spell.

[tieren]

I am currently DMing a playtest group with a hexblade in it. You need the curse bringer invocation, but then you do get a more traditional divine smite substitute where you can burn a spell slot after a hit to really pump out some guaranteed concentration free extra damage.

Also one effect of cursing your target is increasing the crit range to 19-20, which means you'll have double the chance of a paladin to crit smite.

[Belltent]

EDIT: I'm an idiot it's in the generic dwarf description oh my god I'm one of those internet people that can't read comprehensively god damn it I'm an idiot.



You know what, I still like the my idea

Hill dwarf will give you +2 con and toughness, and +1 wisdom and no strength requirement for heavy armor

I see this crop up on forums every now and then and I'm finally gonna ask...

Is there some errata to dwarves or armor I'm unaware of???? Mountain dwarf gets you light and medium prof, but i don't see where they take away the movement speed penalty for not meeting the STR requirement.

[Klorox]

For me, there is no strength minimum of 13.

I believe Klorox's plan is to run this
STR 8 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 13 CHA 16
Race: variant human (take the war caster feat)

And get basically the equivalent of mage armor/dex 18AC, but stone sorcerer +3/con and add in a shield
Its awesome, but going from level 1 is different. Chainmail and shield is AC18 from level 1 on, and +2 from shield of faith and works with his wisdom score of 13

Klorox makes good characters so I'm sure this will work.

Wow, thank you so much for this compliment!

I'm trying to figure a way to smite like a paladin, without dipping paladin.

I'm entering a game at level 4. I might have to do paladin 2/stone sorcerer 1/hexblade 1. But I'm not a huge fan of this.

Back to the old drawing board.

[miburo]

If you are willing to go 5 Warlock and Blade Pact, you can get the Eldritch Smite ability from the UA for Revised Class Options (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/June5UA_RevisedClassOptv1.pdf). Honestly I don't think it's worth it though. Better Hexblade 1/Stone Sorcerer X and just use quickened dual Greenflame/Booming Blades instead for damage spikes.

To the original point, Hexblade 1/Stone X is awesome. Only need to raise Con and Cha so you'll have rock solid defense and decent HP, great spells, offensive control, a decent ranged cantrip (EB is pretty good even without Agonizing Blast) and enough ASI/feats long term to get everything you need (Con 20, Cha 20, Warcaster).

Though, Stone Sorcerer seems overpowered from the abilities, control, and damage potential it gets. If they keep the concept (I really hope they do, it's the closest to a Swordmage we've officially seen) then I imagine it will be toned down some.

[Klorox]

If you are willing to go 5 Warlock and Blade Pact, you can get the Eldritch Smite ability from the UA for Revised Class Options (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/June5UA_RevisedClassOptv1.pdf). Honestly I don't think it's worth it though. Better Hexblade 1/Stone Sorcerer X and just use quickened dual Greenflame/Booming Blades instead for damage spikes.

To the original point, Hexblade 1/Stone X is awesome. Only need to raise Con and Cha so you'll have rock solid defense and decent HP, great spells, offensive control, a decent ranged cantrip (EB is pretty good even without Agonizing Blast) and enough ASI/feats long term to get everything you need (Con 20, Cha 20, Warcaster).

Though, Stone Sorcerer seems overpowered from the abilities, control, and damage potential it gets. If they keep the concept (I really hope they do, it's the closest to a Swordmage we've officially seen) then I imagine it will be toned down some.

Do you really need to expend a warlock spell slot to smite, or is that flavor text to be ignored, like in the paladin smite section?

[miburo]

Do you really need to expend a warlock spell slot to smite, or is that flavor text to be ignored, like in the paladin smite section?

That's a good question. RAW it's a warlock spell slot, but the Sage Advice (and errata maybe?) on the paladin one allowed normal spell slots. A generous DM might allow the swap. However one balance issue is that there is no damage cap on Eldritch Smite. So if you had Warlock 5/Sorcerer 15, you could be doing 9d8 damage per smite, which is kind of crazy. I would probably cap it at 6d8 (basically 5th level slots).