Is Telekinetic Thrust kinda insane, or am I just being low OP again?

[SangoProduction]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm

You can target up to 1 creature / level, up to 10ft away...per level. Admittedly, you're going to have to augment it for particularly massive creatures because of the maximum weight thing.

Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 ft (up to 20d6), admittedly on a non-mind effecting will save...which doesn't scale... So, that makes this one of the only psionic powers that scales damage based on level, assuming the enemies don't always have flight (which is more reasonable an assumption when mostly facing monsters). It also doesn't need to be augmented beyond its base, much of the time.

And yeah, tossing [level] greatswords with intelligence mod. That's...rather silly, even if it does require an attack...for each one. This kinda puts warrior-types to shame, as you can now attack 5x as many times as them, if you've enough greatswords. Now we just need a way to have them on a platter ready to be thrown.

But beyond the damage, it's also great battlefield control. Launching a human a hundred feet away basically takes them out of the fight for 2-3 rounds, unless they run and take some debuffs. And hey, it can also be used as an improvised fly, I guess.

[Deophaun]

Target or Targets: One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less
I think that's the word you're missing. It doesn't matter if you have five objects or twenty, you are throwing is 250 lbs, so you're only dealing 10d6 damage if you're throwing something at someone. Now, if you're dealing with kobolds or gnomes, you can probably toss eight of 'em or so. Humans? Two. Maybe. If they are unencumbered. If you want more, you need to augment.

[Jack_Simth]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm

You can target up to 1 creature / level, up to 10ft away...per level. Admittedly, you're going to have to augment it for particularly massive creatures because of the maximum weight thing.

Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 ft (up to 20d6), admittedly on a non-mind effecting will save...which doesn't scale... So, that makes this one of the only psionic powers that scales damage based on level, assuming the enemies don't always have flight (which is more reasonable an assumption when mostly facing monsters). It also doesn't need to be augmented beyond its base, much of the time.

And yeah, tossing [level] greatswords with intelligence mod. That's...rather silly, even if it does require an attack...for each one. This kinda puts warrior-types to shame, as you can now attack 5x as many times as them, if you've enough greatswords. Now we just need a way to have them on a platter ready to be thrown.

But beyond the damage, it's also great battlefield control. Launching a human a hundred feet away basically takes them out of the fight for 2-3 rounds, unless they run and take some debuffs. And hey, it can also be used as an improvised fly, I guess.

Couple of notes...

1) Throwing a creature: it's will negates for the ML d6 damage, not will half, and it's easy to be largely immune.
2) Throwing weapons: Note, however, that you're targeting full AC, you are using your normal BAB (not your manifester level!), and you're not adding anything as a strength score. You can, however, use Colossal Arrows instead. Of course, you're arguably dealing with inappropriately sized weapon penalties (unless you are, yourself, Colossal).

Spells are still more bonkers.

[Venger]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm

You can target up to 1 creature / level, up to 10ft away...per level. Admittedly, you're going to have to augment it for particularly massive creatures because of the maximum weight thing.

Falling damage is 1d6 per 10 ft (up to 20d6), admittedly on a non-mind effecting will save...which doesn't scale... So, that makes this one of the only psionic powers that scales damage based on level, assuming the enemies don't always have flight (which is more reasonable an assumption when mostly facing monsters). It also doesn't need to be augmented beyond its base, much of the time.

And yeah, tossing [level] greatswords with intelligence mod. That's...rather silly, even if it does require an attack...for each one. This kinda puts warrior-types to shame, as you can now attack 5x as many times as them, if you've enough greatswords. Now we just need a way to have them on a platter ready to be thrown.

But beyond the damage, it's also great battlefield control. Launching a human a hundred feet away basically takes them out of the fight for 2-3 rounds, unless they run and take some debuffs. And hey, it can also be used as an improvised fly, I guess.
you kind of answered your own question.

you have to augment this power a ton to actually life another character.

remember manifesters can't spend more pp than thelr ML on the manifestation of a single power

[AslanCross]

My players found that the most efficient way they had to maximize Telekinetic Thrust's damage output was to throw a WILLING target (the heavily armed Dwarf Crusader) AT the enemy. He can tank the damage, but his recipient can't; it's also an efficient way for him to cross the battlefield.

[Telok]

I found Retrieve (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/retrieve.htm) to be much more useful (and fun!). But we tend to fight lots of humanoids and other weapon and armor users. Our melee solved their own movement issues with items and abilities.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And yeah, tossing [level] greatswords with intelligence mod. That's...rather silly, even if it does require an attack...for each one. This kinda puts warrior-types to shame, as you can now attack 5x as many times as them, if you've enough greatswords. Now we just need a way to have them on a platter ready to be thrown.

But beyond the damage, it's also great battlefield control. Launching a human a hundred feet away basically takes them out of the fight for 2-3 rounds, unless they run and take some debuffs. And hey, it can also be used as an improvised fly, I guess.
A warrior gets most of his damage from strength, power attack and feats even if he uses a greatsword.
Telekinetic Thrust adds nothing, so even a greatsword does only 7 damage on average.
Against full AC, with low BAB+int, it's not all that likely to hit. Not to mention that each attack is subject to DR individually, so even DR 5 will negate it almost completely.
Not to mention that you actually have to carry all those greatswords with your mighty psion strength, draw them all and only then can you launch them. Unless your encounters regularly have weapons lying around on the floor?

As for the BFC aspect, only if they don't have ranged options. And you have enough open space with no cover.
Even then they can run back at quadruple their speed (or triple in heavy armor) as a full-round action, so in the best case you've kept them from attacking for 1 round. There's plenty of BFCs with will saves that are better than that.

[NamelessNPC]

I don't think throwing big swords is they best way to use this. Maybe it's best to throw nets to entangle everyone, or alchemical items, or traps, or a party member, as someone said. Throwing a net attached to a rope can prevent a fast flyer from going up, for example. It's a versatile power, but I don't think it's a very good option if what you are looking for is damage.

[Jack_Simth]

Not to mention that you actually have to carry all those greatswords with your mighty psion strength, draw them all and only then can you launch them. Unless your encounters regularly have weapons lying around on the floor?Easily solved. Mule + Cart + Portable Hole. Open the portable hole onto the cart, put the swords (or better, Colossal Arrows) into the hole sticking out a little ways, have the mule draw the cart. When combat comes, just grab them straight out of the old with Telekinetic Thrust.

For a Wizard or Sorcerer using that option of Telekinesis, it's even easier: Just Floating Disk replaces the mule, cart, and portable hole quite easily. Plus, of course, they've got access to Greater Magic Weapon to add a little damage, which works very well in conjunction with oversized arrows.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Easily solved. Mule + Cart + Portable Hole. Open the portable hole onto the cart, put the swords (or better, Colossal Arrows) into the hole sticking out a little ways, have the mule draw the cart. When combat comes, just grab them straight out of the old with Telekinetic Thrust.

For a Wizard or Sorcerer using that option of Telekinesis, it's even easier: Just Floating Disk replaces the mule, cart, and portable hole quite easily. Plus, of course, they've got access to Greater Magic Weapon to add a little damage, which works very well in conjunction with oversized arrows.

It's generally pretty difficult to get a mule & cart into a dungeon. but the Disk works. Not to mention that arrows are destroyed on hit, so you'd have to carry a whole lot to make that your go-to attack.
And they still only do 3d6 damage per arrow, are each subject to DR individually and have rather low attack rolls.
So i'm not saying you can't, i'm just saying it's probably not worth the effort you're making.
Especially the first method. You can get equally high, more reliable damage by buying a metamagic rod or two and casting something different instead of getting a portable hole full of colossal arrows.

It's certainly not something i'd call overpowered. It's great if you happen to face a bunch of low-AC, no-DR enemies. That are somehow resistant to your other spells.
So under perfect circumstances it does great damage, but how often do those actually come up? And are those enemies really a problem that needs a special tactic to deal with?

[lord_khaine]

Its fun, and cool, something you can use for style points when it comes to finishing off your opponents.

But i would generally say that if you can kill someone by launching massive blades at her, or though falling damage, then you could most likely have killed your opponent cheaper some other way.

[Jack_Simth]

It's generally pretty difficult to get a mule & cart into a dungeon. but the Disk works. Not to mention that arrows are destroyed on hit, so you'd have to carry a whole lot to make that your go-to attack.
And they still only do 3d6 damage per arrow, are each subject to DR individually and have rather low attack rolls.
So i'm not saying you can't, i'm just saying it's probably not worth the effort you're making.
Especially the first method. You can get equally high, more reliable damage by buying a metamagic rod or two and casting something different instead of getting a portable hole full of colossal arrows.

It's certainly not something i'd call overpowered. It's great if you happen to face a bunch of low-AC, no-DR enemies. That are somehow resistant to your other spells.
So under perfect circumstances it does great damage, but how often do those actually come up? And are those enemies really a problem that needs a special tactic to deal with?

Dragons have mere DR/Magic (and GMW solves that), low-ish AC, and great saves (at CR 11, your basic Young Adult Blue has AC 26).

I'm not saying it's overpowered, really, just that the 'how do you move them' is solvable.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dragons have mere DR/Magic (and GMW solves that), low-ish AC, and great saves (at CR 11, your basic Young Adult Blue has AC 26).

I'm not saying it's overpowered, really, just that the 'how do you move them' is solvable.

A level 11 psion has a BAB of +5, with maybe a +6-8 for Int on top of that. That a 25-35% chance to hit with Telekinetic Thrust.
On the other hand you have spell DCs of 16-18 + power level, so with a 6th level power that's a 35-45% chance for the dragon to fail even if you're targetting its strongest save (fort). Targeting reflex is 20% higher.
Or you could just target its touch AC 9 to hit on anything higher than a 1 if you have 14 dex.

All that's not factoring in the dragons spellcasting and triple-standard treasure of course.

[Rerednaw]

A level 11 psion has a BAB of +5, with maybe a +6-8 for Int on top of that. That a 25-35% chance to hit with Telekinetic Thrust.
On the other hand you have spell DCs of 16-18 + power level, so with a 6th level power that's a 35-45% chance for the dragon to fail even if you're targetting its strongest save (fort). Targeting reflex is 20% higher.
Or you could just target its touch AC 9 to hit on anything higher than a 1 if you have 14 dex.

All that's not factoring in the dragons spellcasting and triple-standard treasure of course.

Or Shivering Touch says hi. Or Fell Drain Venomfire. Or...

[legomaster00156]

It's certainly not something i'd call overpowered. It's great if you happen to face a bunch of low-AC, no-DR enemies. That are somehow resistant to your other spells.
So under perfect circumstances it does great damage, but how often do those actually come up? And are those enemies really a problem that needs a special tactic to deal with?
The best use I know of for telekinetic weapon-hurling (be it spell or power) is dealing with AMF's. Only the telekinesis is magical: once the weapon is thrown, everything else is just natural force. This means you can attack from outside the AMF.

Or Shivering Touch says hi. Or Fell Drain Venomfire. Or...
Please, look up and see the Pathfinder tag.

[Zancloufer]

A level 11 psion has a BAB of +5, with maybe a +6-8 for Int on top of that. That a 25-35% chance to hit with Telekinetic Thrust.
On the other hand you have spell DCs of 16-18 + power level, so with a 6th level power that's a 35-45% chance for the dragon to fail even if you're targetting its strongest save (fort). Targeting reflex is 20% higher.
Or you could just target its touch AC 9 to hit on anything higher than a 1 if you have 14 dex.

All that's not factoring in the dragons spellcasting and triple-standard treasure of course.

Could always buff yourself before hand. +5 to hit from a level 1 power isn't hard and if you cast GMW on those arrows for another +3-4 to hit. I mean 3d6+4x11 isn't super OP damage but the only cost is one charge from a wand and a pile of arrows (11 Colossal arrows costs like 20 GP max).

[ben-zayb]

There was a low level PbP arena before here where I saw Telekinetic Thrust comboed with Psionic Minor Creation to launch 5 arrows each poisoned with Black Lotus Extract.

[lord_khaine]

Please, look up and see the Pathfinder tag.

Is Telekinetic Thrust kinda insane, or am I just being low OP again?

Please find a pathfinder tag in that.. :smallamused:


Could always buff yourself before hand. +5 to hit from a level 1 power isn't hard and if you cast GMW on those arrows for another +3-4 to hit. I mean 3d6+4x11 isn't super OP damage but the only cost is one charge from a wand and a pile of arrows (11 Colossal arrows costs like 20 GP max).

It might not be hard, but its certainly expensive in PP. And being a short duration power, then it most likely will also eat a combat action.

So its using a charge of a expensive wand(CL 12), and a action to buff up, and you have to find a way to cart around 11 colossal arrows ready to be fired at a moments notice. Also, if your not certain you wil get into combat that day you risk having to spend one more round buffing, or wasting a wand charge.


There was a low level PbP arena before here where I saw Telekinetic Thrust comboed with Psionic Minor Creation to launch 5 arrows each poisoned with Black Lotus Extract.

Thats perhaps more a problem with Psionoc Minor Creation.. ?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Please, look up and see the Pathfinder tag.

The nonexistent one on the OP that linked the 3.5 version of the effect? I don't see it. :smallamused:

[SangoProduction]

Please, look up and see the Pathfinder tag.

huh......lol.

[Zancloufer]

It might not be hard, but its certainly expensive in PP. And being a short duration power, then it most likely will also eat a combat action.

So its using a charge of a expensive wand(CL 12), and a action to buff up, and you have to find a way to cart around 11 colossal arrows ready to be fired at a moments notice. Also, if your not certain you wil get into combat that day you risk having to spend one more round buffing, or wasting a wand charge.


GMW lasts hours/CL so one casting will last a full 12 hours, not to mention it effects 50 units of ammo, so that is a good 4-5 volleys. Also while the +atk buff is short duration it becomes a swift action to cast at 6PP+ and will last the entire combat encounter. So really it's 8 powers and one wand charge to do essentially 33d6+132 damage 4 times. Not a terrible use of resources. Biggest issue is carting around the arrows, but Floating disk + Portable hole covers that.

[Vogie]

I don't think throwing big swords is they best way to use this. Maybe it's best to throw nets to entangle everyone, or alchemical items, or traps, or a party member, as someone said. Throwing a net attached to a rope can prevent a fast flyer from going up, for example. It's a versatile power, but I don't think it's a very good option if what you are looking for is damage.

This is one of those situations where sword-chucks could be a viable weapon... equal parts bola and blade.

[lord_khaine]

GMW lasts hours/CL so one casting will last a full 12 hours, not to mention it effects 50 units of ammo, so that is a good 4-5 volleys. Also while the +atk buff is short duration it becomes a swift action to cast at 6PP+ and will last the entire combat encounter. So really it's 8 powers and one wand charge to do essentially 33d6+132 damage 4 times. Not a terrible use of resources. Biggest issue is carting around the arrows, but Floating disk + Portable hole covers that.

Yes, but the wand charge is still only useable a day where you know your going to be attacked. Not to mention you also need to invest in UMD to activate the wand.
As for Precognition, Offensive, then its +6pp to use it as a swift action. So in that case your getting a +1 to hit for 7pp. Rising to +2 at 10 pp.

Also its not 33d6+132.
Its 11 attacks of +5 bab, +2 insight, +3 enhancement, +x int to hit, that does 3d6+4 each. I dont know what the average ac is at level 11, but i do suspect that it will lead to a nice falloff in hits.

The price for this then is rather high. A portable hole is 20k in itself. And im not even certain you can stack 50 Collosal arrows into one of those. They should be about 10 times as big as a regular arrow in every dimension.
Add then to that another 25k for the magic weapon wand, and its running up a bit.

Those 45k is comming out of the 66k budget a regular level 11 char has. And the higher level you get, the less viable this trick becomes, as DR or high AC becomes more common.

[Mystia]

It is pretty good indeed, and it gets even more ridiculous depending on what you do. The way that I, personally, do it is:
- Carry X Gargantuan Returning Mithral Harpoons in a bag of holding, which I keep on the sleeve of my outfit
- Turn it inside out as a free action (debatable, but if needs be you can make a free action Sleight of Hand to do that) when the moment arrives
- Follow up with the Telekinetic Thrust
Then just manifest the power again as many times as needed. Keep in mind that those things are crazy expensive, I just paid for this for the cool factor, and because I had enough money to throw around.