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Stryyke
2017-03-26, 05:48 AM
Is it possible to wrap up a campaign, in a way that isn't anti-climactic, without fighting a BBEG?

Berenger
2017-03-26, 06:23 AM
Yes. In any campaign in which the trouble wasn't caused by a single BBEG that is powerful in a personal fight. Most criminal investigation plots. Plots where the characters were lost and the goal was to come home alive. Any plot in which a McGuffin has to be retrieved that is not some kind of weapon needed to destroy a single entity. Anything with political intrigue. Most plots about successful spies or non-violent criminals?

Dappershire
2017-03-26, 07:09 AM
When they fight a Big Nice Good Guy?

The survival themed campaigns are all I can think of...and those I don't feel allow for a lot of role playing. BBEGs, if nothing else, provide points for discussion, interrogations, and artful monologueing.
Everything else mentioned just seems like side quests, y'know? Maybe I just haven't had a DM capable or willing to make a full campaign without a BBEG, but that's my two copper.

Yora
2017-03-26, 07:45 AM
Actually a good question. Might get more people to see it if it where in the title of the thread.

I think the big conclusion of a story always needs to be a scene in which (mostly) everything gets solved and the heroes triumph over their opponents or obstacle. What you need is a moment in which everything can either be resolved in the way the players want or it could possibly get much more worse than it's even now. If you have a scripted plot, that's a bit of a challenge as the players would know that this is going to be the scene where they win and not the scene where their characters are all killed or they have to escape and start over again from an even worse position than before.

But it doesn't have to be a boss fight. What is needed is a threat of what happens if the heroes fail, and some kind of obstacle that needs to be overcome to succeed. That obstacle doesn't have to be a creature but could also be the environment, especially when combined with a time limit. The Last Crusade is a good example. Indiana Jones has to get past the three traps to reach the holy grail, then solve the riddle, and then make it out of the dungeon alive (with or without the grail). If he fails, then his father and friends will die.

Keltest
2017-03-26, 07:46 AM
In one campaign I was in, we pressed the "detonate" button on what was functionally a localized magical bomb while it was in the middle of the enemy lair, then ran like hell. We didn't fight the BBEG, but we sure stopped her. Holy crap was that a tense session. We got out a real, actual timer and had it counting down.

Yora
2017-03-26, 08:02 AM
Yeah, I think there might be two main types on noncombat big finales:

Steal a magic item that means automatic defeat over the villain.
Sabotage the villain's source of power.

In either case you have to get into very dangerous places and perhaps even out again, by outsmarting the obstacles in your way rather than carving a path of destruction through them.

The Thief games are all about stealth and end with getting into the villains' lairs and sabotaging their attempted takeover. In Metro 2033 you have to climb a ruined tower to launch a missile. It can be made quite thrilling if the GM can present it in a sufficiently dramatic way. But you really need the threat of higher than usual danger during that final attempt.

Dappershire
2017-03-26, 08:23 AM
The Last Crusade is a good example. Indiana Jones has to get past the three traps to reach the holy grail, then solve the riddle, and then make it out of the dungeon alive (with or without the grail). If he fails, then his father and friends will die.

At which point, he had to kill the Big Bad Nazi Guy. So...nyah.

Keltest
2017-03-26, 08:33 AM
At which point, he had to kill the Big Bad Nazi Guy. So...nyah.

Indi never killed any Nazi in that temple.

Beans
2017-03-26, 08:46 AM
It's possible and can often depend on the system and the conceit of the specific campaign.

Maybe there is a central, driving antagonist---but the protagonists remove them as a threat in a non-combat way, such as convincing them to cease hostilities or even winning them over to their point of view.

Maybe there's no Big Bad and the party culminates a game of diplomatic wrangling by decisively preventing a war from breaking out.

Maybe there's no Big Bad and the driving danger of the game was a disaster the party prevents.

Jay R
2017-03-26, 09:54 AM
Is it possible to wrap up a campaign, in a way that isn't anti-climactic, without fighting a BBEG?

This is awfully close to asking, "Is it possible to leave off the climax without being anti-climactic?" The obvious answer is to find a different climax.

There are two ways to do that and win. [The third alternative is not to win.]

A. defeating the BBEG without fighting him.

1. They throw the One Ring into the Cracks of Doom, ending the power of the BBEG forever, but never actually fight him.

2. After defeating the BBEG's most effective lieutenants, the PCs are arrested, brought into his presence, and pardoned. One of the PCs is promoted to Lieutenant of the King's Musketeers.

3. The PCs get in small ships, and make a daring run against the BBEG's greatest weapon. Using the Force, they successfully destroy the weapon, and the BBEG, in his own small ship, goes spiraling off into space, and they never have a big boss fight with him.

B. There is no BBEG to fight.

1. The king was murdered. The PCs find the murderer, unravel the plot, and the people turn to them to settle down and start running the kingdom.

2. The PCs established at the start that they needed enough gold to <buy farms, build a castle, buy their father out of prison, etc.>. They finally reach the amount they needed.

3. The volcanic island is about to blow, and the last few adventures are getting everybody to the mainland in time.

4. A final boss fight without a BBEG - a large group of ogres, or some such.

5. They wake up, somebody says, "That was a great dream," and they all return to their jobs as menial servants. [OK, that one's a little anti-climactic.]

6. Their adventures have been skirmishes around the edges of a great war between kingdoms. Their final mission is to sneak behind enemy lines, infiltrate the enemy capital, make their way into the enemy's throne room and deliver an offer of peace.

7. The PCs have finally exonerated themselves, they are no longer escaped slaves, and no longer have to sail as pirates with Captain Blood.

8. The star of the show breaks her leg before the big opening night, and the chorus girl PC goes out there a youngster but comes back a star. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHrpJLRkhNs)

9. The PCs eventually wreak their revenge on each one of their rivals - Caderousse is dead, Danglars bankrupt, Villefort exposed, and Mondego dishonored. The PCs sail away to a blissful retirement with the beautiful Princess Haydee.

10. The PCs successfully deliver all the toys through the stormy night, play a drum for the baby, convince Virginia that there is a Santa Claus, find the magic hat to re-animate the snow golem, stop two crooks from robbing the house with an unconvincing set of improvised traps, help three wise men find their way, check their list twice, buy a big turkey for the Cratchits, win first prize for the best house decorations, and learn the true meaning of Christmas, all in time for the final commercial.

C. No victory

1. The two lovers each commit suicide, each believing the other one is already dead. Their two warring families end the feud.

2. And of course, the classic - a TPK.


Yes, I've gotten a little silly here, but I hope I've made my point. If you want it a climactic ending with no BBEG fight, then invent another big climactic ending.

neonchameleon
2017-03-26, 08:04 PM
Is it possible to wrap up a campaign, in a way that isn't anti-climactic, without fighting a BBEG?

Absolutely. And I don't just mean a TPK.

The thing is that D&D in specific is focussed on fighting bad guys. In order to wrap up a campaign in a way that's at least satisfactory you need to bring in the common themes of the campaign. If you've been fighting, a fight is a good one - but in a social campaign you can win by outmaneuvering the bad guy or even bringing everyone together. You just need to have planted the seeds from early on in the campaign.

VonMuller
2017-03-26, 08:31 PM
I wrapped up a 3.5 campaign that me and my friends had been playing since we were 14 years old to when we were 22 this way:

OOC:

I was tired of DMing, my players loved the campaign, but we were playing less and less and less, going from once a week during our high-school years to barely once every three months during college. So we sat together and decided to give that campaign, our first D&D campaign, a proper farewell.

IC

The Big Bads had conjured a Devil to our world, that devil, as per RAW, was summoning more devils each day, and every day that passed the growth of the devil army was exponential.

The characters had defended a Dwarven city from a siege but all their efforts only bought time to evacuate the civilians. As such, they resorted to finding an Ancient Temple were the Gods - all the Gods - had debated some issues during creation. This let them travel to a demiplane were avatars of all Gods made themselves present and discussed the situation.

Most neutral and good gods, and some of the evil gods - but not Asmodeus, of course - were convinced that the balance had been broken, and it was time to take drastic measures. So Mystra, goddess of magic, informed our party that there was a way to stop the growth of the devil army, if only to buy time so that the Kingdoms of the material plane could defeat them.

She led our party to her plane, and there, let our Wizard kill her. Thus bringing the fluff that 4e added to D&D. Her death severed magic from the world for a whole day and night, banishing every single devil -but not their servants and allies- and dispelling every single spell in the world. For a day and a night, there was no magic in the world.

During the travel, one of the player's willingly sacrificed his character to pass through a gate that required the utmost sacrifice. Another relinquished his claim over the dwarven kingdoms to pass a test of humility, since the kingdom had fallen during the siege. It was perhaps the best in character session we had, ever.

Then, finally, they knew that although they didn't defeat the big bad, their efforts gave the world hope, and their names would live on in legend.

I then proceeded to hand them the summaries of every single session until then (I made them to keep track of experience and I emailed them and, later - when it was invented - uploaded them to facebook) and I told all the players that anyone could take the campaign from here and continue it, even if I wasn't a DM or player.

It was a great end. We all cherish those characters until today.

theasl
2017-03-26, 08:33 PM
I'm one of those rare crazy souls who actually kind of likes the much-maligned ending of Mass Effect 3.
Basically, in a game which has gotten more and more combat-oriented over the course of the series, the "final boss", so to speak, is a gigantic dialogue wheel. The last real boss fight is a super-annoying underling (I wouldn't like the ending as much if you didn't get to kill him), after which his boss is taken down by dialogue, there's an inane back-and-forth with the puppetmaster (because reasons) who gives up control to you, and the destroyer of worlds is expunged by a macguffin-powered dumb colored wave of energy, all in the middle of a gigantic climactic space battle.
Star Wars (at least the original trilogy) also doesn't have a real boss fight; the BBEG's right-hand man is put through enough self-doubt by the heroes (who happen to include his own son) to sacrifice himself and throw the BBEG out of the window (the paraphrased versionTM).

So yes, even an epic battle-focused series (or two) with clear BBEGs can be resolved in a climactic manner without a boss fight. Diplomacy and/or auto-win macguffins can be as satisfying as pulling your sword out of the enemy leader's gut.

neonchameleon
2017-03-27, 04:45 AM
I'm one of those rare crazy souls who actually kind of likes the much-maligned ending of Mass Effect 3.
...
So yes, even an epic battle-focused series (or two) with clear BBEGs can be resolved in a climactic manner without a boss fight. Diplomacy and/or auto-win macguffins can be as satisfying as pulling your sword out of the enemy leader's gut.

But then you're one of those rare crazy souls who actually kind of likes the much-maligned ending of Mass Effect 3 which turns its back on the enemy in the mirror and diplomacy and hope that is at the core of the committed Paragon player's experience. I'm not saying what you like is bad in the slightest - just that the reaction to ME3 should demonstrate that there are lots of people this was intensely unsatisfying for and not because it didn't let us shoot things.

theasl
2017-03-27, 12:19 PM
But then you're one of those rare crazy souls who actually kind of likes the much-maligned ending of Mass Effect 3 which turns its back on the enemy in the mirror and diplomacy and hope that is at the core of the committed Paragon player's experience. I'm not saying what you like is bad in the slightest - just that the reaction to ME3 should demonstrate that there are lots of people this was intensely unsatisfying for and not because it didn't let us shoot things.

Hey, I never said it was satisfying for everyone. I was just speaking for myself.

I don't want this to turn into a Mass Effect discussion, but:
If you actually map out the giant dialogue wheel on the Crucible, the Paragon ending ("Charm") is actually Destroy and the Renegade ("Intimidate") is Control, despite the color of the energy blasts. Synthesis is the "Investigate" option, while leaving or shooting the idiot Catalyst is the "Leave Conversation" option. Not sure if the discrepancy between color and result is what you're referring to, but it's something a lot of people seem to get wrong. IMO the main problem with it is that the intentions of the story are badly explained; the Extended Cut DLC makes it a bit better but does not completely fix the issues.

LibraryOgre
2017-03-27, 02:07 PM
Is it possible to wrap up a campaign, in a way that isn't anti-climactic, without fighting a BBEG?

We had a campaign end in speechifying.

It had slowly become evident that the cult of Vecna had infiltrated a number of local religions and started perverting their worship. The party didn't have a final fight with Vecna or his high priest, but instead launched a campaign to convince worshipers that their cults had been subverted and bring them back to the truths of their religions.

neonchameleon
2017-03-28, 04:57 AM
I don't want this to turn into a Mass Effect discussion, but:
If you actually map out the giant dialogue wheel on the Crucible, the Paragon ending ("Charm") is actually Destroy and the Renegade ("Intimidate") is Control, despite the color of the energy blasts. Synthesis is the "Investigate" option, while leaving or shooting the idiot Catalyst is the "Leave Conversation" option. Not sure if the discrepancy between color and result is what you're referring to, but it's something a lot of people seem to get wrong. IMO the main problem with it is that the intentions of the story are badly explained; the Extended Cut DLC makes it a bit better but does not completely fix the issues.

The crucible being set up backwards isn't a problem - and just depends on rotations. The fact that all the endings overturn the entire narrative thrust of an upper-left-blue "Expand and trust leads to good results" option is. If you saved the Geth and the Rachni then the Destroy option is not just destroying the Reapers, but genocide of the Geth - not an option. Following the Illusive Man's plan and picking Control, thus both killing yourself and Indoctrinating the Reapers - pretty much not an option. And synthesis? I carry out a medical experiment I know nothing about on every citizen in the galaxy? Brought to you by the people who brought us Husks, Saren, and Banshees? Nope.

If you're playing Renegade, or haven't saved the Geth, or even managed to kill Wrex and have to deal with Wreav on Tuchanka, or were fine with finishing off the Rachni then Destroy is perfectly fine.

As for that matter is the in-game clues if you've been playing the multiplayer where it says that the Reapers are being pushed back in all sectors - you're winning a conventional war..

For the record my Shepherd ended with my personal fix ending - destroying the Mu Relay and blowing up all the Reapers in the system because of that (see ME: Arrival).

Yora
2017-03-28, 08:40 AM
When the party wizard gets out his crystal ball and says "Execute Order 66", that can also be a very badass conclusion to a campaign.

Or you get a letter from the master of assassins that only says "All agents report success".

As long as the preparations to get to that point were sufficiently difficult for the players, simply being able to say "checkmate!" can be an awesome victory.

BWR
2017-03-28, 10:07 AM
Plenty of ways you can end a campaign without a BBEG fight.
In Mystara you can end up becoming a god, and the stuff needed to do that is generally beyond the scope of a single BBEG. There might be many BBEG fights along the way, however.

You can end in success that leads to later tragedy. One SW campaign I ran had the Jedi heroes discover Malachor V and relay the information to Revan and the Exile, setting up the endgame of the Mandalorian Wars. They ended up having to fight one of their own who had fallen, and one of the survivors went on to be the Jedi Atton betrays in his backstory in KOTOR 2.

Our HSHC game ended with one of the girls winning Protagonist-kun's heart (and when you think about it, a BBEG fight would have been a bit weird).

One V:tM campaign ended with us setting off Gehenna. It's follow-up ended with Ghenna wiping out everything.