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Honest Tiefling
2017-03-26, 12:19 PM
So I am trying to make a singled gendered race for a homebrew setting. Reading about some examples on TVtropes has made me question if this is a good idea, and if they can be done well. Anyone want to give me advice on how to make an appealing and interesting race?

Steampunkette
2017-03-26, 12:31 PM
Option 1: Go as inhuman as possible.

Good examples are Insects, Aberrations, and Oozes.

A nice hive/colony insectoid race in which all members share the same nonbinaristic gender, capable of reproducing with any other member of the species with no gender roles or social assumptions about division of duties... It works pretty well. Aim for an androgyn style on their appearance, give them completely insect-like voices, and have them refer to everyone as "Their" for pronoun use, regardless of what gender the person they're referring to identifies themself as.

Bonus points if they can't understand the idea of gendering individuals.

Alternatively a group of alien beings might defy gender identification by simply being to difficult to quantify. Rather than having no or one gender, there are so many that the aberrations don't even attempt to classify anyone through language or social structure creating an essentially gender-free race.

Oozes are great as a nongendered race, since they lack anatomy or social presumptions of utility! Instead an ooze is an ooze. It appears in whatever form it wishes at any time and may even explore the concept of gender through using a shape-shifting ability to at least arrange themselves in the loose approximation of a gendered individual.

Changelings and Dopplegangers should definitely qualify, as well. *nod nod*


Option 2. Humanlike Creations

Robots. Magical constructs that are shaped in a generally humanoid fashion but either lack the anatomy and social assumptions of gender, or actively reject it.


Option 3: Humanlike Monogender species.

Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings might all be monogender and simply dress like "Men" or "Women" to put the incredibly binaristic humans at ease.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-26, 12:32 PM
What? Like Mass Effect's asari?

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-26, 12:38 PM
What? Like Mass Effect's asari?

Maybe with less questionable biology.

I admit a bias to more human-like versions, due to thematic reasons and ease of play, but those ideas are good, Steampunkette! The latter makes me think that a race with a strong psychic bond to other members of their own race might not have a strong gender identity, due to the likelihood of being linked to others of varying genders.

ImNotTrevor
2017-03-26, 12:40 PM
Warhammer 40k Orks are a singe-gendered race done well because their single-genderedness is background noise to all the other cool stuff about them. The Necrons are in basically the same boat, but they're robots.

If you make a race that's basically "Look, they have only one gender, aren't they cool and rad because of that?" You're gonna have a bad time because they'll have the depth of a puddle.

And as always, give them some underlying reason to have only one gender. (Perhaps they reproduce asexually, parasitically, or by cloning. Perhaps they have no real concept for it, etc.) "Because they do" is weak and unsatisfying.

Millstone85
2017-03-26, 12:45 PM
Although it technically isn't a true example of this trope, I like the twist where two seemingly one-gender races are actually related.

Satyrs and dryads, for example.

Lord Raziere
2017-03-26, 12:53 PM
So I am trying to make a singled gendered race for a homebrew setting. Reading about some examples on TVtropes has made me question if this is a good idea, and if they can be done well. Anyone want to give me advice on how to make an appealing and interesting race?

I made one, based upon whiptail lizards which are mono-gendered in real life.

The key part of such a race is their lack of genetic diversity and how it affects their entire biology and civilization so that they have to compensate.

Cleanliness IS next to godliness here, even more so than our civilization, to prevent epidemics

Since all beings are pretty genetically similar and children are basically clones of their parent, it is generally assumed that their capabilities are exactly the same and that the child will turn out the same as the mother. this may or not be actually true.

It is probable that the mono-gendered race will reproduce MORE than a two gendered one, so that more people will be around to be alive in case something kills them, quantity reproduction over quality. This leads to rapid reproduction and thus overpopulation, thus leading to the need to send people out to colonize other places, which often intrudes on other people, which leads to such races becoming conquering and constantly expansionist by necessity, with the elites of the society possibly intentionally starting wars to lower their population density so that disease has no conditions to start spreading. This leads to the elites of such a society considering the commoners of such a society expendable combined with their seeming interchangeable-ness.

So anything but Asari. such a mono-gendered race would actually be pretty warlike.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-26, 01:17 PM
Warhammer 40k Orks are a singe-gendered race done well because their single-genderedness is background noise to all the other cool stuff about them.


Aren't they part fungus or something? That's why it's so hard to permanently get rid of an ork invasion because they drop spores everywhere. The planet will be fighting off sporatic feral ork invasions for generations. (though 40k changes their mind periodically on exactly how stuff works :P)

Largely I think it's because 40k didn't want to have to worry about non-combatant orks.

Segev
2017-03-26, 01:23 PM
Any oozes are going to be mono-gendered. Aboleths are mono-gendered, and reproduce by laying a self-fertilized egg.

Carbosillicate amorphs, of which Schlock of Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-06-12) is the prime example, are monogendered and yet engage in two (or more) party reproduction.

Plants are usually mono-gendered (hermaphroditic) creatures.

Generally, the reproduction of mono-genered species will be somewhat alien to that of gendered species. It will either involve asexual reproduction (e.g. mitosis) or some sort of merged mitosis (parents go in, and parents+offspring come out; parents go in, and multiple offspring come out; something like that). Or it will involve pollenization-like behaviors where all participants release genetic material to the others, and the others take it in from other participants, and they all wind up with fertilized seeds/eggs/pregnancies/whatever.

A big thing to AVOID in designing a mono-gendered species is re-inventing the sexual roles or making them a thing but "interchangeable." You can, but it's the most risky because it can become the most distracting. (I mean, you don't need mono-gendered species to achieve that, either. A species where mating occurs, and the gender of the offspring is determined by which parent carries it to term is theoretically possible. Think of it as if they didn't have men and women, but As and Bs, and which is the "(fe)male equivalent" is highly cultural-dependent.)

Jormengand
2017-03-26, 01:59 PM
Gender will probably confuse them quite a lot if they're part of a species which doesn't have it. Take these two characters from MARDEK, for example:

Sslen'ck: I find this concept of 'gender' the most droll of all. It ssseemsss to colour almossst all of your interactionsss, based on whether the 'gender' of each conversing party differsss or isss the sssame... I notice you persssonally have difficulty talking to the... what wasss it, 'fee nail' onesss?

Mardek: Uh... do I?!

Sslen'ck: Indeed. It perplexesss me. You sssee, we reptoidsss have no concept of gender, asss each of usss can breed with any other of our ssspeciesss. I imagine it mussst be horribly limiting, to form a bond with an individual, only to be unable to mate with them asss they are the sssame *gender* as you? Your choicess would be limited to thossse who necessssssarily are different by their very nature.Mardek: Well... I was wondering, are you a boy dog or a girl dog?

Solaar: ...Woof? I don't acquire your meaning there, buddy man. What is a boy dog and/or a girl dog? Those words are strange to me. Can you explainerise the difference to me?

Mardek: Well, I'm not really sure myself! But I think that girl dogs like flowers and wear bows in their hair, but boy dogs like woofing and barking and chasing things! But so do some girl dogs, so I don't know.

Solaar: I like flowers and fighting! Even fighting flowers! But not flowers fighting. That's wrong. I can't wear or wield a bow, though, because I lack arms, look? See? I make up for it by havifying many-a-leg. Double pairs!

Mardek: So you're a girl and a boy? I don't get it!

Rohoph: Sigh... This ridiculous ignorance is-... Look, I mean, what is your *gender*?

Solaar: Oh, you should know full well, Mr Spirit-Shifted Annunaki, that we have no gender! You don't either! You're not even a Mr! Or a mrrr! Mrrrrr. I adorate that noise. But no! Stop! Wait! This 'gender' is a quaint and bizarre anomaly common to silly simple species sometimes! Asking me my sexy gender is like... Like... Wellies, I am of the Bright caste, so what, Mrrr Human Knight-time, is your caste? What caste are you?

Mardek: Huh? Caste?

Solaar: EXACTLY!! It's a non-concept to you! You don't know. You don't have one. I don't have a sex-caste either. A gender. Again-there. I am One. We are all One. We can all be One together, me and my kind! You know!!

But for both of these characters, the gender thing is only mentioned in one conversation, it's one that you can only have if they've been travelling with you long enough to level up a lot, and they only even have the conversation if you press the "Have interesting but ultimately unnecessary conversations with your party members" button enough times. It needs to be mentioned to be relevant, but it should be a background feature of that race.

GrayDeath
2017-03-26, 02:05 PM
Thats difficult to do well.

I support the "do really inhuman ones" and "try created psecies".

A very good example from my pov is the Haluteans/the Beasts from the Perry Rhodan Universe.

Result of a galaxywide eugenics/Radiaten Experiment program to design the ideal soldiers.
With some steps in bewtween ended in beings that expressed behaviour humans interprete as male or female. And tough as they get to boot




Also no, avoid Asari, the only thing well done with them is the Scene with the bachelor party where humans, Turians and Salarians all say they look like them. ;)

JNAProductions
2017-03-26, 02:49 PM
Just make it a footnote, basically. They are monogender-what else is interesting about them? Basically, build a race, make it cool, and then add in the one-gendered nature, or do it concurrently. But don't make that all there is to them.

jayem
2017-03-26, 03:15 PM
Just make it a footnote, basically. They are monogender-what else is interesting about them? Basically, build a race, make it cool, and then add in the one-gendered nature, or do it concurrently. But don't make that all there is to them.

Or go the other way. Follow the consequences through everywhere.

If they bud.
The family tree is very tree like (no mixing) and either very thin with few close relations, or very competitive or expansive.
No chance of marrying up your children.
Anything based on impressing the other sex is out. Any need to show bravery?
(the afore mentioned disease issues)
Is one of the buds clearly the child? If not how does inheritance and the like alter

If hermaphrodite
Does an effective gender reappear (consider worms), based on what, class/age/strength?
Is it subverted, how?

If hidden gender
...

Steampunkette
2017-03-26, 03:37 PM
Also worth noting and very important:

Gender =/= Genitals.

You could have a race with several different types and combinations of genitals and no identification, understanding, or care for issues of gender (division of labor, social expectations, power dynamics).

Such a group might or might not consider itself "Monogender" so much as "Agender", though.

jayem
2017-03-26, 03:41 PM
Also worth noting and very important:

Gender =/= Genitals.

You could have a race with several different types and combinations of genitals and no identification, understanding, or care for issues of gender (division of labor, social expectations, power dynamics).

Such a group might or might not consider itself "Monogender" so much as "Agender", though.

I was wondering about making the same point the other way for the hermaphrodite case (but didn't).

Skorj
2017-03-26, 03:58 PM
The Sontarans as presented in the rebooted Doctor Who are another great way to go with this. Perfectly normal organic creatures, as far as game rules go, but procreation is a process of mass production that most individuals just aren't concerned with. You hatch from an egg along with your brood mates, and the eggs are created by a (magical for a D&D game) process, not an organic one.

Another approach that I've played, slightly different from what your asking, is that only one sex would ever become an adventurer due to strong sexual dimorphism. This was an insect species with 3 sexes, where the queens and the warrior sex that guarded them simply don't leave home, and are very focused on their specialist tasks. However, the drones may go adventuring, being expendable and having a general-purpose mind. The other sexes may figure into the game as NPCs from a diplomacy-and-intrigue perspective, but effectively aren't a playable race.

lightningcat
2017-03-26, 11:56 PM
Are you doing this for scifi or fantasy? Because in fantasy you can throw biology out the window. I remember at least a few versions of dwarves that are created from stone, either by ritual crafting or "natural" budding from caverns. Many fae races only have one gender (or are totally asexual), and reproduce either by mating with other races or through more magical means. Even if you aren't using the "because magic" reason, you still need only the briefest reasoning.
With scifi you want to go a bit deeper, and at least follow some of the rules for biology. Although science can make what was previously a bigender species into a monogender species. There are examples of this in both the old Star Wars EU, and in David Weber's Mutineer's Moon series.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 12:04 AM
Are you doing this for scifi or fantasy? Because in fantasy you can throw biology out the window. I remember at least a few versions of dwarves that are created from stone, either by ritual crafting or "natural" budding from caverns.

In The Lord of the Rings movies didn't they show that Uruk Hai were basically made with some sort of magic or alchemy? (The books were pretty vague about them too.)

khadgar567
2017-03-27, 12:19 AM
Dot so not lose this treat but i am trying to warp my head in same f ing question i got races but i dont know how the f a fluff them as mono gendered species( i got race for both fantasy and sci fi side)

Anderlith
2017-03-27, 12:21 AM
Mushroom based life would be cool, when they die their remains just self pollenate to eventually grow more mushroom people. They could be related to the myconids

khadgar567
2017-03-27, 01:30 AM
Mushroom based life would be cool, when they die their remains just self pollenate to eventually grow more mushroom people. They could be related to the myconids
which is 40k orks in a bolter shell.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-03-27, 01:40 AM
If you've got time (or are a quick reader), I'd recommend reading The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin. That's an excellent exploration of a single-sex humanoid race and there are lots of ideas in there you could steal.

Anderlith
2017-03-27, 02:17 AM
which is 40k orks in a bolter shell.

That's heresy son

Excession
2017-03-27, 03:09 AM
In A Fire Upon the Deep, Vernor Vinge had an alien race where each "person" was a pack of four to ten animals, sharing thought via ultrasound. The individual creatures had two sexes, the conglomerate people were much more complex. I'm not sure how an RPG would represent them, but sonic attacks would be really nasty for them.

For a standard fantasy race, I think dwarves can be adapted to work. Each dwarf is crafted from stone, precious metals, and gems, then given life just as the first dwarves were created by Moradin. For a more silly option, perhaps pixies are just a really advanced type of sycamore seed, flying around until they find a good place to put down roots.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 03:38 AM
The biggest problem with monogender races is the external assumption of automatic assignment into binary categories. The Asari are meant to be agender but designed, clearly, to appear as humans interpret women from body shape to social interaction and pronoun use.

Warforged are supposed to be a genderless robot species but are built to look like beefy dudes and presented with masculine pronouns. The Transformers were the same for a long while. Part of the assumed male default.

To create a monogender race that doesn't fall into that sinkhole you have to go with an androgynous appearance and use of They pronouns. Or Zir and such if you wanna get fancy with it.

Lentrax
2017-03-27, 03:52 AM
They aren't actually one gendered. But due to some kind of biological disaster there are only day one or two males for every two or three hundred women (or vice versa). So everyone assumes only one gender because the race doesn't allow the small percentage of genetic material get in harms way.

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 04:31 AM
Terry Pratchett had an interesting take on the subject, with dwarves:
* They have the same biological sexes as humans but all can (and will) grow a beard.
* Even among themselves, asking what genitals a dwarf possesses is a taboo.
* Their one cultural gender is male. This is not a mistranslation done by humans.

An ongoing plot through the Discworld series is that many dwarves wish they could openly identify as women, and wear dresses (of chainmail), high heels (under iron boots) and lipstick (along with the beard).

I don't remember the possibility of a biologically male dwarf identifying as female ever being brought up.

halfeye
2017-03-27, 05:19 AM
Some animals change sexes as they mature, starting as one then changing to the other.

Zombimode
2017-03-27, 05:24 AM
Warforged are supposed to be a genderless robot species but are built to look like beefy dudes and presented with masculine pronouns.

Well, for Warforged the physical capabilities are in a good part the result of their physical make up: the body of a warforged is not just for show - to be strong a Warforged needs those muscle-analoges.
Thus the reason most Warforged appear as "beefy" is the same as warriors of any gender appear as beefy.

The second point, that they are uniformly presented with male pronouns is not true. Most Warforged NPCs are introduced like "Screwdriver, Warfored (Female personality)..." or "Rusty, Warforged (Male personality)...". Others are not described with either male or female personality, implying that the particular warforged doesn't care.


Personally I think Warforged are quite well designed as a non-gendered race. It is true that they look somewhat masculine but it is also quite clear that this similarity is incidental.

But I'm curious, what changes to the Warforged design would you propose?*

*in the hypothetical case that you could traval back in time and have a say in the Eberron design proces

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 05:37 AM
Well, for Warforged the physical capabilities are in a good part the result of their physical make up: the body of a warforged is not just for show - to be strong a Warforged needs those muscle-analoges.
Thus the reason most Warforged appear as "beefy" is the same as warriors of any gender appear as beefy.

The second point, that they are uniformly presented with male pronouns is not true. Most Warforged NPCs are introduced like "Screwdriver, Warfored (Female personality)..." or "Rusty, Warforged (Male personality)...". Others are not described with either male or female personality, implying that the particular warforged doesn't care.


Personally I think Warforged are quite well designed as a non-gendered race. It is true that they look somewhat masculine but it is also quite clear that this similarity is incidental.

But I'm curious, what changes to the Warforged design would you propose?*

*in the hypothetical case that you could traval back in time and have a say in the Eberron design proces

I'd skip the small hips big chest/shoulder design.

They're robots. There's no reason they need big muscle analogies to be super strong. You could have them be slender as elves and stronger than half orcs. The only reason they have big muscles is that someone wanted them to have big muscles.

They could be filled with handwavium for raw power, or use sleek greenwood muscles that are twice as strong but take up 1/10th the space. And even if they did NEED big muscles for some inane reason, why not give them flaring hips and more massively muscled legs to even them out rather than having it all upper body?

Because the social assumption of fighting power is big guys with big arms and the easiest way to get that across is the triangle build.

And while they live in a gendered society and may ascribe a given pronoun to themselves the rest of gender as a social construct, things like assumed duties, social treatment, gender performance, and power dynamic, they're all treated like men from start to finish.

To some degree that's the beauty of D&D's "gender doesn't matter for adventure!", but along with the body type it deeply undercuts the "Warforged as agender in design" thing.

Zombimode
2017-03-27, 06:36 AM
or use sleek greenwood muscles that are twice as strong but take up 1/10th the space. And even if they did NEED big muscles for some inane reason, why not give them flaring hips and more massively muscled legs to even them out rather than having it all upper body?

Hm, yeah, something like that might be possible. Maybe it would have been difficult to align such a design with the general aesthetics of Eberron (which is, all things considered, quite "grounded")? I'm not really a design person, but maybe something to consider.


They could be filled with handwavium for raw power

This on the other hand would be a drop in design quality. There is already enough of that in Warforged. They definitely don't need more handwavium.



they're all treated like men from start to finish.

They are?
From my impression in most Khorvair societies Warforged are ignored (and thus tend to gather in Slums) or treated much like foreign workers/mercenaries: they are not really integrated into society and thus their gender (or lack thereof) doesn't really matter at all.



To some degree that's the beauty of D&D's "gender doesn't matter for adventure!", but along with the body type it deeply undercuts the "Warforged as agender in design" thing.

I have to admit I have never thought to deeply about the Warforged appearance. But isn't it just one quite superficial aspect? To me the lore and characterisations of specific warforged was always what mattered.


Not important to the discussion at hand, but a personal pet peave:

They're robots.

Warforged are decidedly NOT robots. There are no robots in D&D at all (especially not Golems).
Warforged are not machines, and they are not programmable. A closer real-world analogue would be artificially created organic life.

Kitten Champion
2017-03-27, 06:48 AM
In the Eberron novels I've read, the Warforged do have the semblance of a gendered identity even if they're implicitly sexless.

The reasoning being that the artificers of house Cannith built them within their implicitly anthropomorphic worldview to fit the archetypal concept of a soldier on Khorvaire and shaped their sapience to interact functionally with humans. They could have made them radically different, and some were by mistake, experiments, or through unique customization. Some were designed specifically to evoke feminine qualities - voice and frame meant to reflect the concept of a woman - because artificers are a curious lot.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 07:01 AM
Hm, yeah, something like that might be possible. Maybe it would have been difficult to align such a design with the general aesthetics of Eberron (which is, all things considered, quite "grounded")? I'm not really a design person, but maybe something to consider.

They use magic trains and city streetlights. It's not all that grounded. Though they could have literally used anything. Maybe part of their creation forges is "Gauntlets of Ogre Power" which are part of the Warforged themselves. Now you can have them literally have sticks for arms with a ball-socket joint and a strength of whatever the player rolled. It is, after all, a setting where magic is commonplace.


This on the other hand would be a drop in design quality. There is already enough of that in Warforged. They definitely don't need more handwavium.

Certainly debateable.


They are?
From my impression in most Khorvair societies Warforged are ignored (and thus tend to gather in Slums) or treated much like foreign workers/mercenaries: they are not really integrated into society and thus their gender (or lack thereof) doesn't really matter at all.

They're second class citizens, like foreigners or lepers, but they're still mainly treated as masculine in societal terms. They're expected to fight, perform manual labor, and not expected to do things like take care of children or tend homes or whatever other social assumptions are for women in the region are expected to do. Again, that's part of D&D's "Anyone can Adventure" thing, but yeah: With everything else it undercuts hard.


I have to admit I have never thought to deeply about the Warforged appearance. But isn't it just one quite superficial aspect? To me the lore and characterisations of specific warforged was always what mattered.

So... There's a thing in society where masculine and feminine are this whole SLEW of things. Everything from body to social interaction to even purpose. Ever notice how guys who give names to objects never name their cars/guns/swords "Ted" or "Anthony" but always name their machines something like "Betsy" or "Mabel"? As a society we tend to anthropomorphize objects as female. But the second the object is sapient, we give it a masculine form or a feminine one. We fall into that binaristic basis because humans tend to envision things as binary. Light or Dark. Male or Female. Hot or Cold.

You can argue that it's a superficial aspect, but it's also the PRIMARY aspect we're given by artwork. The picture on the page won't speak to you in a girly voice and tell you all about how she loves to braid doll hair between battles or otherwise fit to a given stereotypical aspect of femininity in society. It can only give you an image. And if that image is clearly masculine, that's what you're going to be primed for. I'm glad you see past it and all, but I'm honestly surprised you don't recognize that as an actual issue.


Not important to the discussion at hand, but a personal pet peave:

Warforged are decidedly NOT robots. There are no robots in D&D at all (especially not Golems).
Warforged are not machines, and they are not programmable. A closer real-world analogue would be artificially created organic life.

Robots, Androids, Gynoids, Artificial Life Forms, the terminology was meant as "Constructed Entity" not "Programmable Tool".

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 07:30 AM
Ever notice how guys who give names to objects never name their cars/guns/swords "Ted" or "Anthony" but always name their machines something like "Betsy" or "Mabel"? As a society we tend to anthropomorphize objects as female.It could be because they are guys. When vampire slayers named their lucky stake, it was "Mr. Pointy".

Also, coming from a truly gendered language, I can't think of a car or sword as anything but female (une voiture, une épée) and of a gun as anything but male (un flingue). :smallbiggrin:

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 07:43 AM
They aren't actually one gendered. But due to some kind of biological disaster there are only day one or two males for every two or three hundred women (or vice versa). So everyone assumes only one gender because the race doesn't allow the small percentage of genetic material get in harms way.

Or just naturally that way to some degree.

Non-mammals don't really need anything like equal numbers of males & females for a species to survive. I have a species in my setting where they have what amounts to prides, with one female leading a dozen or so males. That's nearly the proportion in their species, though some females lack a pride. (They're reptilian - so giving birth isn't an issue.)

For anything that gives live birth though, the numbers would have to be close to 50/50 for the species to survive long-term.

Zombimode
2017-03-27, 08:03 AM
It could be because they are guys. When vampire slayers named their lucky stake, it was "Mr. Pointy".

Also, coming from a truly gendered language, I can't think of a car or sword as anything but female (une voiture, une épée) and of a gun as anything but male (un flingue). :smallbiggrin:

On the topic of object naming trends (spoilered for being off-topic):
In my Impression this is a modern trend. By "modern" I mean "about 100 - 150 years old".
Swords from history and mythology do not follow the naming conventions of female names. And for Fantasy weapon names those naming conventions of old still hold true.

For other objects animal names, honorific and religious themes hold strong, if not just using purely descriptive terms.
A catapult is an "Onager", not an "Agrippa".
Ships are named after saints and royalty. If this would be a female name it is because the person happens to be female.

Yeah, giving objects female names seem pretty much a modern occurrence.

Frozen_Feet
2017-03-27, 08:30 AM
The biggest problem with monogender races is the external assumption of automatic assignment into binary categories.

That's a problem with the external assumers, in this case, humans, not the races themselves.

Humans categorize things via association and depending on place and time, this can get quite arbitrary. For example, in Russia, the word panther is feminine for some reason, and because of this one animated version of Jungle Book gave a female voice actor to Baghera, despite the character being a male (in the original and most other dubs).

So in any setting with sapient mono-genders interacting with humans, I would expect many humans to categorize them as either male or female based on their superficial qualities, regardless of how they themselves think of the matter.

This goes double for artificial, human-made sapients. Warforged appear male and are treated male by humans because they were made with traits their makers considered masculine. They may in actuality be both sexless and agendered, but the humans don't actually care.

Orks of WH40K and Namekians of Dragon Ball are in the same place. They're big and burly and don't have boobs, hence they're masculine to any human viewer. Even if Orks and Nameks don't really have concepts of masculinity and femininity and the whole deal confuses them.

Segev
2017-03-27, 08:45 AM
As a general rule, humans (particularly English-speakers) will default to calling a sexless/mono-sexed species with the male pronoun and assumptions unless they ping very hard on the "you seem like a girl" sense, or insistently self-identify with the female pronoun. "Male default" is a cultural thing. Whether you think this is a problem or not is irrelevant; if you're designing a mono-sexed species, just be aware that this will be the case.

Schlock, again, is thought of as male in his eponymous comic, even though if he were to breed, he'd be at least as much the "mother" of the offspring as any of the other participants. (Amorph reproduction is about what you'd expect within the species, but gets weird when they start looking to other species for mates.)

The taelons in Earth: Final Conflict were played by actresses, but were designed to be androgynous in appearance and, as a species, had no sexes. The taelon characters were referred to with male pronouns.

This generally doesn't cause any jarring with the humans they interact with. Nobody really considers romantic relations with these aliens; they're too emotionally distant.

I would recommend not focusing on defining or insisting on a pronoun, and more on developing the race and seeing what people "naturally" call it when they don't think about it too hard. Then just leave it be. I mean, if you're a sexless creature, are you really going to be offended by this alien thing you're talking to using their "default" pronoun in their language to refer to you? Probably not, unless the default pronoun is insulting in some fashion. (For instance, if the male pronoun were the default in a culture that uses it that way to avoid honoring the potentially-unworthy with the lofty female pronoun, because women are just that much more important than men.)



Side note: It might be interesting to have an alien race where the sexes are binary and have recognizably "male" and "female" traits, to the point that a male human and a "sploo martian" naturally identify each other with the pronoun they both consider the default ("he" for the English-speaker), and a female human and a "masploo martian" naturally look at each other and use the distaff pronoun ("she" for the English-speaker).

And it's only later that they realize that, technically the sploo are the mothers and the men are the fathers of the two species, because the ones that, to the humans, seem very feminine are not the child-bearers, and vice-versa. With, perhaps, "fun" assumptions initially that maybe it's like seahorses, when no, it isn't.

I suspect that the translations would likely stay as they were, though, referring (in English) to the sploo as "him" and the masploo as "her," because aside from childbearing biology, the expectations associated, culturally, with the two would be more instinctive.


And I doubt that a carbosilicate amorph, learning that culture A uses the equivalent of a female pronoun for it and culture B uses the equivalent of a male pronoun for it, would be offended either way, as long as it was respectfully done. (Well, unless the amorph was looking for an excuse to indulge in violence, I suppose.)

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 08:57 AM
Divine beings and the like can be a difficult case too.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/f98d35834b9feccf9aaf539cc917f132/tumblr_nnix3j8UsG1rphc69o1_1280.jpg

IIRC, Galactus himself has sometimes been interpreted to be an entity that Earthlings just picture in that specific form for some reason, including the "him" part.

Frozen_Feet
2017-03-27, 09:03 AM
Note: we have actual examples in nature where the biological female appears more masculine than the biological male. Spotted hyenas are one the most famous ones.

Milo v3
2017-03-27, 09:13 AM
They're second class citizens, like foreigners or lepers, but they're still mainly treated as masculine in societal terms. They're expected to fight, perform manual labor, and not expected to do things like take care of children or tend homes or whatever other social assumptions are for women in the region are expected to do. Again, that's part of D&D's "Anyone can Adventure" thing, but yeah: With everything else it undercuts hard.
Except that stereotype of them is because they were literally designed to be warmachines with the intent that they never think for themselves, so there is the expectation that they are warmachines and physical labourers because they don't know how to think for themselves... The treated to do those roles, because that is literally what they were designed to do. Not because they're masculine in shape, but because if you design a thing to do x, people are probably going to expect it to do x.

Segev
2017-03-27, 09:26 AM
Divine beings and the like can be a difficult case too.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/f98d35834b9feccf9aaf539cc917f132/tumblr_nnix3j8UsG1rphc69o1_1280.jpg

IIRC, Galactus himself has sometimes been interpreted to be an entity that Earthlings just picture in that specific form for some reason, including the "him" part.

I am now amused by somebody challenging Galactus the way Squirrel Girl does, here, and the cosmic devourer replying with something along the lines of, "You perceive me as your mind interprets. You hear my words not as I say them, for they would shatter your mortal perceptions, but as you wish to. It is therefore you who sought to hear 'he' rather than 'she,' and you who have the bias you must examine."

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 09:53 AM
Except that stereotype of them is because they were literally designed to be warmachines with the intent that they never think for themselves, so there is the expectation that they are warmachines and physical labourers because they don't know how to think for themselves... The treated to do those roles, because that is literally what they were designed to do. Not because they're masculine in shape, but because if you design a thing to do x, people are probably going to expect it to do x.

They're treated as they are because Baker and everyone else in the game design team decided that's how they'd be treated.

They look like Baker and everyone else in the game design team decided that's how they'd look.

Post Facto Ad Hoc reasoning aside, the above two statements are the truth.

You can create all the in-canon reasons for why they're treated as masculine or how that treatment could be interpreted in a way separate from gender, but they were flatly DESIGNED as masculine characters. Their Artwork looks manly because that's what the designers wanted.

http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/warforged-01.jpg
http://www.dragonarmyone.com/_/rsrc/1404335658785/Home/index/fantasy-house-rules/character-creation2/coreraces/warforged/War_forged.jpg
http://www.tribality.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/eberron-740x360.jpg

They COULD have been designed to be more gender ambiguous. Some iterations of the Warforged Scout, for example, are less visually masculine. Less visually coded as "Dude"

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/df/01/6f/df016fa82c8e60566d9b0df1d1cf4a30.jpg

But they chose to go with the more clearly masculine style. Everything else about their gender and it's relation to the world around them comes from that design decision.

Now can we PLEASE stop flogging this dead horse and get back on to the topic of actually creating a Monogender race?

How about a different angle for the OP: What story and mechanical roles do you want this prospective race to fulfill?

Segev
2017-03-27, 09:55 AM
How about a different angle for the OP: What story and mechanical roles do you want this prospective race to fulfill?

This seems like a good question on which to focus.

JAL_1138
2017-03-27, 10:04 AM
A potentially interesting variation might be to have aspects of gender seen as purely expressive rather than being defining. Perhaps for example the race consists of androgynous-appearing mammalian-analogue hermaphrodites (although a race that views gender as expression instead of identity could easily be asexual, parthenogenic, have half-a-dozen sexes, etc., instead, or some other variant already mentioned), who freely alternate between modes of behavior and/or dress that to humans would indicate masculinity, androgyny, or femininity, depending on how they feel on a given day or in a particular moment.

They might understand certain aspects of human (or other races') gender conceptions, but find it a bit strange to pin oneself down to one expression on an ongoing basis (though probably not unheard-of, as there would very likely be some portion of their own population that does). They might not consider male or female reproductive roles (if they have them) to be inherently masculine or feminine, either; e.g., it might not seem incongrous at all to them to present themselves in a particularly masculine mode while (assuming mammalian-analogue biology) being pregnant or nursing.

There could be some difficulty in writing/describing/playing the race without exaggerating gender stereotypes or making too many digressions to describe whether they're feeling/expressing as masculine, feminine, or somewhere in-between on the spectrum at a given moment.

Segev
2017-03-27, 10:15 AM
I don't think a race which consisted entirely of hermaphrodites would have gender lines be a defining trait. It wouldn't have meaning. Having them "assign" or even "swap between" genders is a sign of the writer being from a dual-sex race and culture. We don't have gender lines and concepts because we made them up; we have them because biological realities created the distinctions. Now, a lot of cultural cruft gets piled onto that, but the basis is biological. If we didn't have a biological distinction between sexes, we probably wouldn't think of things along those lines at all.

Creatures without sexual dimorphism at all would develop other cultural lines and distinctions, but they wouldn't be based on gender or sexuality. The concept of differences based on those things would be so alien to them that coming up with an analogy for what would be that alien to us is currently eluding me.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 10:29 AM
The concept of differences based on those things would be so alien to them that coming up with an analogy for what would be that alien to us is currently eluding me.

Maybe a sort of caste system? Only possibly without the inherent higher/lower levels of most human caste systems.

Of course - just because they don't have sexual dimorphism doesn't mean that they wouldn't have dimorphism at all.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 11:41 AM
A potentially interesting variation might be to have aspects of gender seen as purely expressive rather than being defining. Perhaps for example the race consists of androgynous-appearing mammalian-analogue hermaphrodites (although a race that views gender as expression instead of identity could easily be asexual, parthenogenic, have half-a-dozen sexes, etc., instead, or some other variant already mentioned), who freely alternate between modes of behavior and/or dress that to humans would indicate masculinity, androgyny, or femininity, depending on how they feel on a given day or in a particular moment.

They might understand certain aspects of human (or other races') gender conceptions, but find it a bit strange to pin oneself down to one expression on an ongoing basis (though probably not unheard-of, as there would very likely be some portion of their own population that does). They might not consider male or female reproductive roles (if they have them) to be inherently masculine or feminine, either; e.g., it might not seem incongrous at all to them to present themselves in a particularly masculine mode while (assuming mammalian-analogue biology) being pregnant or nursing.

There could be some difficulty in writing/describing/playing the race without exaggerating gender stereotypes or making too many digressions to describe whether they're feeling/expressing as masculine, feminine, or somewhere in-between on the spectrum at a given moment.

Gender Fluidity is a thing that could certainly be explored with a given race, and be a compelling feature of them, sure.


I don't think a race which consisted entirely of hermaphrodites would have gender lines be a defining trait. It wouldn't have meaning. Having them "assign" or even "swap between" genders is a sign of the writer being from a dual-sex race and culture. We don't have gender lines and concepts because we made them up; we have them because biological realities created the distinctions. Now, a lot of cultural cruft gets piled onto that, but the basis is biological. If we didn't have a biological distinction between sexes, we probably wouldn't think of things along those lines at all.

Creatures without sexual dimorphism at all would develop other cultural lines and distinctions, but they wouldn't be based on gender or sexuality. The concept of differences based on those things would be so alien to them that coming up with an analogy for what would be that alien to us is currently eluding me.

... Some of this is arguable, most of it is ad hoc conjecture.

Maybe we should define what goes into Gender and look at how different races might interact with the concept?

1. Social Expectations: A Person of a given Gender is expected to act in a certain manner in response to specific stimuli based on socially informed stereotypes. Guys are expected, for example, to react aggressively to apparent slights.

2. Interpersonal Duties: A Person of a given Gender is expected to take on certain labors within a relationship (whether romantic or platonic) based on socially informed stereotypes. A group of friends will expect the girl to arrange for parties or food for get togethers and the like.

3. Gender Performance: Society has standards to which a person must conform for fear of being labeled "Other" and part of that is in Gender Performance. A girl who doesn't act "Girly" enough is a Tomboy. A boy who doesn't act "Manly" enough is a girl. Etc.

4. Emotional Expectations: How you're supposed to express (or repress) your emotions is deeply tied into our presumptions on gender.

5. Power Dynamics: In a society where one gender is dominant over other genders in some ways there will be expectations on how one interacts between genders.

And soooo much more.

Genitals have very little to do with gender except for the assumption of which one you'll grow into.

So let's look at an Ant Society. All of the workers are Asexual (Not female, they have no genitals at all). All of the soldiers are also Asexual. Only the Queen and the Drones have any kind of genitals. So would a sapient ant species really have gender?

You bet your sweet patootie they would! It just wouldn't be based on Genitals. It would be based on everything else listed above. The different apparent functions and dimorphic qualities of the individuals involved would make a huge difference. Workers and Soldiers might be equals and considered "Above" the Queen (Who must be kept alive for reproduction but that's their only purpose) who might not even be considered a full Person within society, instead viewed as an aberrant Soldier or Worker used for procreation.

Meanwhile, you could have a visibly sexually dimorphic species which has only one gender. Where neither have any social expectations that aren't held to the other in the exact same way.

Grim Portent
2017-03-27, 11:54 AM
I'm toying with a race based on Indian Stick Insects, which are an all female species in the real world. They reproduce through parthenogenesis at a constant regular rate when they reach maturity.

The race is naturally solitary, spending most of it's time alone, in the forest, eating. Periodically they lay some eggs, hide them in a hole in or around a tree, and go back to what they were doing. When the young hatch, they adopt the same lifestyle, but gradually drift apart because they have little to no interest in interacting with other members of their own species, an instinctive measure to reduce competition for food. They usually only speak to each other to settle disputes, give directions to known landmarks, and warn each other of threats like forest fires or predators.

When they encounter other races they become more curious and interested in interaction, lacking the instinctive aversion to other races that they have for their own, and possess a strong affinity for learning new languages. When one finds a human (or whatever race really) settlement they tend to move in and basically adopt the cultural norms of the settlement, having no real culture of their own beforehand, but with some major translation issues when it comes to concepts.

'Wild' ones have no concept of gender, or even of pronouns usually, their inherent language doesn't have such concepts because they don't talk to each other under normal circumstances, and never socially. When they encounter other races they generally adopt the pronoun by which they were first addressed. So one who meets a human who calls it he/him would refer to itself as male, one who was called she/her would refer to itself as female, and one called it/them/they would not bother to use gendered terms for itself.

Even when adopting the pronouns of a gender, they still have at best only a vague understanding of the cultural norms surrounding them, and will generally just spend their life doing whatever job they first tried and enjoyed, if any, dressing in whatever manner first caught their attention, and so on. Gendered in name but not in thought so to speak, and often seeming strange to their adopted culture. As a species that reproduces asexually they would also not have a sexual orientation, having no romantic emotions or sex drive to speak of.

Also, with regards to the question on if hermaphrodites would have an idea of gender, I think they probably would in a manner.

Hermaphrodites usually only have one member of any coupling be fertilized at a time, with one serving as the male in the mating process and the other the female. I would expect a sapient species of hermaphrodites to adopt terms for the preferred role in mating, which would become loosely analogous to gender in the absence of true gender. Sort of like top/vers/bottom in the gay community, and the stereotypes and expectations surrounding them.

Also important to note that some hermaphrodite species compete to be the male in the equation, because it's less biologically taxing. Slugs famously engage in penis fencing for example. I would expect sapient hermaphrodites to apply some merit or stigma to being the one who is fertilized or the one who fertilizes, which would grow similar to the stereotypes of men and women in human society.

ImNotTrevor
2017-03-27, 12:07 PM
Anything regarding the nature of gender for a species with only one sex/gender is pure conjecture anyways. Asserting that any one interpretation is more correct than another is inherently faulty reasoning, since we know of no sentient species outside of our own.

Essentially, any belief about how gender would work for a monosexual or hermaphroditic species of sentient entities will be coming from someone within a species which has (barring genetic disorders and errors) 2 sexes and two primary genders that cover the vast majority of the species, and as such is coming from a species which has gender/sex to worry about to begin with. Essentially, the idea that a monosexual species would have multiple genders anyways is exactly as biased by your own perceptions as a member of your current species as is the notion that a monosexual species would have no such concept or need thereof.

erikun
2017-03-27, 12:13 PM
First question: one-gender, or one-sex? Because, as people have noted, there is a difference between the two. A single-gendered race could come with multiple sexes, just have it not influence how they look at one another. I might assume that some kind of reptilefolk would be a likely example of establishing a one-gender society, thanks to their genitalia being internal and likely having little sexual dimorphism.

Second question: why? If you want a one-gender race just so that you can have the female-only giant Gerudo women from Hyrule in your game... well, you'd probably want a very good reason to explore the society of such a people to avoid falling into "magical realm" territory.

If you wish to establish a one-sex species, then the important question becomes: how? How exactly do they reproduce, if at all? The answer is going to determine a lot about how the race acts and builds a society. Warforged and golems are created by an external force. Elementals are formed from a part of the plane getting a bit of consciousness and a body for itself. These factors determine what sort of society these creatures create. (Which, for the most part, means no society.) In some settings, fairies or fae are born from blooming flowers or other natural phenomenon, and so their society focuses highly on protecting such places. Some sort of treefolk or mushroomfolk tend to just gather in tribes, following the eldest and otherwise distributing the work along age lines rather than genders. Other societies, like beefolk, might just behave like an otherwise standard human settlement except that there are no gender roles - everyone does all the work a person needs to perform.

Heck, in a lot of those situations, you probably don't even need to mention that they are one-sexed or one-gendered. That is sort of implied by something like golems (although technically, they would just be asexed and possibly agendered) while in the case of treefolk, it's likely an irrelevant question.

Trying to create a species that has only one sex and requires another species to reproduce is going to be a lot trickier. The biggest question would involve "who do the two species view each other?" Is it a predatory relationship? A symbiotic one? I would assume it is incredibly easy to go into far left field or to creep people out with this idea, which is why it is one I would generally avoid unless I (as a GM) specifically intended to take a look at such an unusual society relationship in the game.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 12:13 PM
Meanwhile, you could have a visibly sexually dimorphic species which has only one gender. Where neither have any social expectations that aren't held to the other in the exact same way.

That makes no sense. If one is bigger & stronger they will invariably be expected to do the brute labor and be the primary warriors, with other roles falling to the smaller ones whether or not there is any instinctual bias like species with different sexes have. Over generations that would become a social issue, possibly one which exaggerates the natural expectations.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 12:24 PM
Anything regarding the nature of gender for a species with only one sex/gender is pure conjecture anyways. Asserting that any one interpretation is more correct than another is inherently faulty reasoning, since we know of no sentient species outside of our own.

Essentially, any belief about how gender would work for a monosexual or hermaphroditic species of sentient entities will be coming from someone within a species which has (barring genetic disorders and errors) 2 sexes and two primary genders that cover the vast majority of the species, and as such is coming from a species which has gender/sex to worry about to begin with. Essentially, the idea that a monosexual species would have multiple genders anyways is exactly as biased by your own perceptions as a member of your current species as is the notion that a monosexual species would have no such concept or need thereof.

Yes. Talking about how a monogender species would exist is conjecture... That's what this whole thread is, Imnot.

When I said "Ad Hoc" conjecture I was referring to Segev's statements on human gender being based in immutable biological differences. Not the idea that conjecture on what a given monogender species could look like for the purposes of Honest Tiefling's game.

Segev
2017-03-27, 12:28 PM
There may well be caste, class, or entirely non-sex-based but still biologically-linked "expectation groups," but if there is only one sex, there won't be "multiple genders."

That would be like arguing that, even though humans don't have varying numbers of heads, of COURSE they'd develop a social structure and head-caste system, with those who happen to fall into the two-head-caste's behavior patterns being recognized as distinct from those who fall into the three-head and one-head caste patterns.

Now, maybe three-heads are seen as the intellectual elite ruling caste and two-heads are known for their efficiency as soldiers and laborers, while one-heads are primarily seen as beauty objects in this hypothetical society. You could have them point to examples of humans in those various jobs and categories and say, "See, they just call their 'one-head caste' 'celebrities' and their three-head caste 'politicians.'"

Pointing out all the other ways that three-head-caste "behaviors" leak into other "castes" in human society would put lie to this, or be seen as just a way they're "alien," if these creatures wished to impose their head-caste system.

Certainly, if they were making up a solely-one-headed race, they'd be more inclined to naturally divide caste-roles into the same groups, if only with just tertiary phrenological characteristics.

Likewise, I don't think "gender" would really evolve in a sexless/one-sex species. Roles, or castes, or even categories based on other physical multimorphisms, perhaps. But with no dimorphism, the "gender roles" wouldn't evolve as such. There just wouldn't be the biological dividing line to draw them along.


Now, a race that swaps sexes, particularly if they do it as they get older, might well develop gender lines, and they'd associate them with youth and foolishness and vitality, and the other with age and wisdom and authority. (Or, maybe, they'd vest authority with youth and vitality. Our own culture had moved from generally venerating age and wisdom to venerating youth and beauty.)

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 12:28 PM
How about a different angle for the OP: What story and mechanical roles do you want this prospective race to fulfill?

Uh...None actually. It just occurred to me that finding good art of harpies was bad enough, but I couldn't really find good examples of male harpies. I had the idea they could have been cursed from human stock and therefore still able to breed with it, but that just seemed like a recipe for disaster and stereotypical drow matrons with WIIIIIIINGS.

So maybe all members are gendered female, but some have baby-making parts? Still not 100% sure what direction to take this in.

Also, I wonder if Warforged could have been made to have the broad shoulders and the 'pecs' of a male, but the wider hips of a female for balance or something. That'd be a sight.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 12:28 PM
That makes no sense. If one is bigger & stronger they will invariably be expected to do the brute labor and be the primary warriors, with other roles falling to the smaller ones whether or not there is any instinctual bias like species with different sexes have. Over generations that would become a social issue, possibly one which exaggerates the natural expectations.

"Sexually Dimorphic" does not mean "Bigger or Smaller"

A race where those who produce sperm (or it's equivalent) are bright red while those who produce ovum (or it's equivalent) are bright green could have a perfectly monogender society. No social expectations placed on one that aren't placed on the other.

Or perhaps the sperm-bearers have no feathers above the neck while the ovum-carriers have muted plumage.

Or maybe the ovum-carriers have a tail that is significantly different in some way from the sperm-producers, like a forked tip.

Segev
2017-03-27, 12:32 PM
Uh...None actually. It just occurred to me that finding good art of harpies was bad enough, but I couldn't really find good examples of male harpies. I had the idea they could have been cursed from human stock and therefore still able to breed with it, but that just seemed like a recipe for disaster and stereotypical drow matrons with WIIIIIIINGS.

So maybe all members are gendered female, but some have baby-making parts? Still not 100% sure what direction to take this in.Oh. I'd just use pictures of androgynous aarakockra if I wanted male harpies and didn't mind enormous dimorphism.


Also, I wonder if Warforged could have been made to have the broad shoulders and the 'pecs' of a male, but the wider hips of a female for balance or something. That'd be a sight.

Clearly, the solution is to make all warforged sized and proportioned like children. That way, nobody expects them to have detectable sexual characteristics. Putting child-like soldiers into war poses no ethical problems, either. I'm sure.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 12:32 PM
Uh...None actually. It just occurred to me that finding good art of harpies was bad enough, but I couldn't really find good examples of male harpies. I had the idea they could have been cursed from human stock and therefore still able to breed with it, but that just seemed like a recipe for disaster and stereotypical drow matrons with WIIIIIIINGS.

So maybe all members are gendered female, but some have baby-making parts? Still not 100% sure what direction to take this in.

Also, I wonder if Warforged could have been made to have the broad shoulders and the 'pecs' of a male, but the wider hips of a female for balance or something. That'd be a sight.

Oh. Well. The whole "Must mate with human males" thing is kind of an awkward issue, not just from the Drow Matriarch standpoint, but the social issue of women being dependent on men for sex to survive being SUPER CREEPY.

Having them all be visibly and socially female irrespective of what genitals are in their cloaca could work just fine , though.

Segev
2017-03-27, 12:34 PM
Oh. Well. The whole "Must mate with human males" thing is kind of an awkward issue, not just from the Drow Matriarch standpoint, but the social issue of women being dependent on men for sex to survive being SUPER CREEPY.

...I don't think he meant personal survival, but in order to bear offspring. And that's something both men and women have always been dependent on each other for. Not particularly creepy.

Maybe a bit disturbing for a human male who isn't into furries to have harpies trying to get into his pants, though...

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 12:39 PM
Oh. I'd just use pictures of androgynous aarakockra if I wanted male harpies and didn't mind enormous dimorphism.

I honestly find the idea of a bird beak speaking really really really distracting. You have no lips!


Clearly, the solution is to make all warforged sized and proportioned like children. That way, nobody expects them to have detectable sexual characteristics. Putting child-like soldiers into war poses no ethical problems, either. I'm sure.

THAT IS GENIUS. Psychological warfare upon your enemies! Sure, many armies won't care, but some have to.


...I don't think he meant personal survival, but in order to bear offspring. And that's something both men and women have always been dependent on each other for. Not particularly creepy.

Maybe a bit disturbing for a human male who isn't into furries to have harpies trying to get into his pants, though...

No, no, just to make the offspring. I assume that a species with flight and a dexterity bonus would make for excellent pirates, but any males for reproduction would have to be left at home due to this reason. I guess some criminals or explorers might be okay laying low or staying with a bunch of female pirates who have a desire for some children, but I can't see that happening enough to propagate a species.

erikun
2017-03-27, 12:39 PM
Uh...None actually. It just occurred to me that finding good art of harpies was bad enough, but I couldn't really find good examples of male harpies. I had the idea they could have been cursed from human stock and therefore still able to breed with it, but that just seemed like a recipe for disaster and stereotypical drow matrons with WIIIIIIINGS.

So maybe all members are gendered female, but some have baby-making parts? Still not 100% sure what direction to take this in.

Also, I wonder if Warforged could have been made to have the broad shoulders and the 'pecs' of a male, but the wider hips of a female for balance or something. That'd be a sight.
Well, if the problem is that you are only finding harpy art with boobs, then I could make a few suggestions.

One, harpies have two sexes and two genders, it's just that both males and females have noteworthy breasts and can produce breast milk. Much like the idea that male/female dwarves can both produce beards, there's nothing wrong with both (or all) sexes of a species to display traits normally associated with only one sex in humans.

Two, harpies are only the female sex, but display personalities in both genders. This would be entirely reasonable given that they were originally from human bloodlines; they likely retain the same gender divide as humanity, especially when still living in close proximity to them. Please note that not every individual of a species is required to produce offspring in order for the species to survive, so there is no problem with the male (gender) harpies simply choosing to not take up a mate, or taking up a female mate.

Three, harpies are female sex (only) and female gender (primarily), and so you have a race of females. As you note, this would probably produce a very drow-like mindset, especially in looking down on men (not being harpies, among other things) and possibly having some captured or in a lower class in harpy society. You'd probably end up with something similar to drow society in treehouses, which does raise the question of why you would want to bother with it. Your group will certainly notice the similarity.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 12:41 PM
...I don't think he meant personal survival, but in order to bear offspring. And that's something both men and women have always been dependent on each other for. Not particularly creepy.


Lol - that reminds me of this -


“What would men be without women? Scarce, sir...mighty scarce.




I honestly find the idea of a bird beak speaking really really really distracting. You have no lips!

Why? Parrots & ravens don't have much trouble speaking without lips. From what I understand it's more important to have a thick tongue than lips - which they both do. (Though I did see a PFS adventure which had tengu using blowdarts which annoyed me.)

Floret
2017-03-27, 12:46 PM
Maybe not the most inspired example, but one that could be looked at (if one is willing to go VERY Fantasy with this) are the Varl from Banner Saga.
They were all made specifically and personally by their god, and have only one gender (That is referred to as male throughout the games. On the other hand, they DO look like giant male humans with horns. They do wear clothes inspired by dresses, sometimes, though.).
Of course, they don't reproduce. They were all made by their god in his image, and since that god is dead, the race is slowly dying out.

As for the rest of the topic... A lot of interesting ideas.


There may well be caste, class, or entirely non-sex-based but still biologically-linked "expectation groups," but if there is only one sex, there won't be "multiple genders." [...]

I think part of this might be arguing semantics. The other part - sure, humans tend to project things they feel as "natural" as such, even if they are anything but. (Cultures on Earth defy pretty much all of these, be they things as base 10 calculations (Who says counting fingers is in any way the "intuitive thing" to do?^^), Binary Gender systems (Numerous counterexamples, despite a relatively (though far less than most people assume) binary sexual dimorphism) or using relative direction instead of absolute in day to day speech (Because how could you always know where north is? Turns out, if you bake it into the language, people just... do))
So, projecting "Gender" onto a mono-sexed species might be similar to people projecting gender dynamics on same-gender couples - sometimes, no chopstick is a fork. It's an interesting point, though to truly answer the question, we might need a clear definition of what "Gender" actually constitutes, before we can reasonably move forward with the discussion, because "can monosexed species have the thing we call gender" heavily depends on the answer to the question "what even is gender".

Segev
2017-03-27, 12:48 PM
THAT IS GENIUS. Psychological warfare upon your enemies! Sure, many armies won't care, but some have to.I wonder if living constructs can become undead, and if these would qualify as children slain through the negligence or betrayal of their guardians.


No, no, just to make the offspring.That is what I thought.


I assume that a species with flight and a dexterity bonus would make for excellent pirates, but any males for reproduction would have to be left at home due to this reason. I guess some criminals or explorers might be okay laying low or staying with a bunch of female pirates who have a desire for some children, but I can't see that happening enough to propagate a species.So there might be actual eggs in the "crow's nest?"

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 12:57 PM
Hrm. Probably going to go with the idea that harpies ARE all female...But some are biologically male, but rarer and do physically resemble females until the loinclothes come off. The vast majority would also identify as female, further confusing the issue. Female harpies are already lean for flight, and males would be very androgynous.

Short hair, practical clothing and a habit of stealing (mostly male) sailor's clothing as trophies only confuses the issue further. Mating with humans is indeed possible, but not needed for the continuation for their society. Stealing uncooperative males is very rare, as many harpies would not feel that the examples they could snatch would lead to good children, also, they can't drag off most human males (or females) that easily. There might be a few legends of human males or females joining with their tribes, but not a consistent pattern. The size of a human male or female might be appealing to a harpy in an exotic way, as they are all short and slender for flight.

Rescuing lost children raised among their tribes may be another possibility, for while they might not have gotten along with flightless races in the past, doesn't mean they wouldn't feel pity towards a child. As the child grows, they might just remain with their tribe and stay at home regardless of their sex or gender.

And of course, with an all-female race, marriages between women are not just allowed, but they might express confusion as to why it wouldn't be allowed.


Three, harpies are female sex (only) and female gender (primarily), and so you have a race of females. As you note, this would probably produce a very drow-like mindset, especially in looking down on men (not being harpies, among other things) and possibly having some captured or in a lower class in harpy society. You'd probably end up with something similar to drow society in treehouses, which does raise the question of why you would want to bother with it. Your group will certainly notice the similarity.

Hrm. Probably a strong emphasis on kinship bonds to reduce the stab-happy nature of the drow. You also can't take down a ship if you're worried about getting stabbed in the back. Also, due to being able to rest in cliffside caves, I could see a communal sense of property due to limited space.

Actually, I have to ask, why would this automatically result in a drow-like society? Just because its all female?

And thoughts on the race? It could establish more about the world itself, that would be hard to explain without more rambling.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 12:58 PM
...I don't think he meant personal survival, but in order to bear offspring. And that's something both men and women have always been dependent on each other for. Not particularly creepy.

Maybe a bit disturbing for a human male who isn't into furries to have harpies trying to get into his pants, though...

No, no, just to make the offspring. I assume that a species with flight and a dexterity bonus would make for excellent pirates, but any males for reproduction would have to be left at home due to this reason. I guess some criminals or explorers might be okay laying low or staying with a bunch of female pirates who have a desire for some children, but I can't see that happening enough to propagate a species.

Oh, no. I understood, fully.

But you're dealing with a whole species that needs men from a DIFFERENT species to survive.

There's a lot of issues of coercive or violent rape, women actively begging for sex on a societal level, and other concepts that are pretty creepy tied up into it.

If it happened in real life it would be creepy (Mars needs your penis to survive!) but since it's also being done from the perspective of a writer creating a fantasy it's also got a whole lot of OTHER stuff tied into it, intentional or not.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 01:05 PM
Oh, no. I understood, fully.

But you're dealing with a whole species that needs men from a DIFFERENT species to survive.

There's a lot of issues of coercive or violent rape, women actively begging for sex on a societal level, and other concepts that are pretty creepy tied up into it.

If it happened in real life it would be creepy (Mars needs your penis to survive!) but since it's also being done from the perspective of a writer creating a fantasy it's also got a whole lot of OTHER stuff tied into it, intentional or not.

I...Think that's extrapolating quite a lot. First, they don't need men to survive, they need males for babies to continue the species, slight difference. Secondly, the issue has less been begging for sex and just plain taking it. Also, despite the presence of wings I am not really sure they are a different species if they just inherited a curse.

Given many DnD settings have 'slightly weird humans' as a race, it could be seen as a different breed. Mentally, all of the same bits are present.

If anything, I think the complaint should be the fetishization of amazon like societies, where women come and violently take the men as a sexual fantasy.

Through now that I have thought about it, using male aarakorca as the males also presents the issue of the women being bangable, but the males not being attractive which is a trope I hate.

Segev
2017-03-27, 01:10 PM
Oh, no. I understood, fully.

But you're dealing with a whole species that needs men from a DIFFERENT species to survive.

There's a lot of issues of coercive or violent rape, women actively begging for sex on a societal level, and other concepts that are pretty creepy tied up into it.

If it happened in real life it would be creepy (Mars needs your penis to survive!) but since it's also being done from the perspective of a writer creating a fantasy it's also got a whole lot of OTHER stuff tied into it, intentional or not.

It's interesting that you automatically assume it's "women begging for sex" and being coerced into being raped. I would have actually assumed, given harpy nature and...hygiene (even if you're into furries, harpies are said to be filthy and smelly)...that it's the males that're more likely to need coercion. Add in the harpies' charm songs and you get further into the rape being of the guys, not of the girls.

Now, of course rape is creepy, but harpies are traditionally villainous creatures, so then being creepy is not entirely unexpected. Wanting to avoid the subject is reasonable, however.

But to assume the rape-undertones are male-on-female in this case, as coupling it with "women begging for sex" implies, is a bit odd.


I mean, take your "if it happened in real life" example: "Mars needs your penis to survive!" immediately comes off as some sort of male power fantasy and is implied to be creepy because those martian women are "needy" or "desperate" for human males.

Play my favorite game with it: "Mars needs your uterus to survive!" doesn't, somehow, make the women the creepy ones for having desperate, needy martians pining for human females. It makes the martians creepy predators.

Why isn't "Mars needs your penis to survive!" making the martians the creepy predators?

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 01:14 PM
I...Think that's extrapolating quite a lot. First, they don't need men to survive, they need males for babies to continue the species, slight difference. Secondly, the issue has less been begging for sex and just plain taking it. Also, despite the presence of wings I am not really sure they are a different species if they just inherited a curse. Given many DnD settings have 'slightly weird humans' as a race, it could be seen as a different breed. Mentally, all of the same bits are present.

If anything, I think the complaint should be the fetishization of amazon like societies, where women come and violently take the men as a sexual fantasy.

Through now that I have thought about it, using male aarakorca as the males also presents the issue of the women being bangable, but the males not being attractive which is a trope I hate.

Yes. They need men to continue the species. I understand that. I said I understood that in the post you're quoting. What part of that makes you think I need you to tell me, again, that it's the continuation of the species?

That was a whole lot more condescending the third time someone said it than the first two... Good Lord.

And I disagree that it'd be the same thing, mentally. Or physically. All the feathers and stuff would kind of be all "Mmmmno. No. That's... nnnnoooo." Except for furries.

But yeah. Amazons "Taking the men" which would be the rape I referred to. Harpies "Taking the men" would be the rape I referred to. And my comment of "Perspective of the writer creating a fantasy" was the whole "Amazon Sexual Fantasy" and other issues I didn't want to outright state as a way of avoiding insulting you.

How about the aspect where all the women are constantly topless and showing off their boobs for prospective mates? That's got a ton of creep tied to it, as well, thanks to our society's fixation on breasts.

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 01:21 PM
Reading this thread, I feel the need to bring up the illithids.

They are hermaphrodites whose mating produces an egg from which hatches a tadpole that is then implanted into the head of another creature, leading to a mental and physical transformation of the host. Non-humanoids become various illithid-like creatures, while humanoids either become conventional illithids or, more rarely, ulitharids.

Illithids gather into colonies, forming a hive mind of which a single ulitharid is the center. Soon, the ulitharid undergoes a second transformation and becomes a giant brain with tentacles, known as an elder brain.

Would that race have only one gender, which might be the same as no gender? Would ulitharidness be considered a distinct gender, as it is necessary for the "birth" of a new hive?

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 01:24 PM
Yes. They need men to continue the species. I understand that. I said I understood that in the post you're quoting. What part of that makes you think I need you to tell me, again, that it's the continuation of the species?

Because you mentioned 'survival'. The harpies, as presented, would be doing just fine without a male and don't need them hanging around for defense, religious purposes, or hunting. Which I assume would be a huge misstep of a single sexed race is to present the race as incapable of fulfilling a vital role in society, or doing the Dryad thing of having them enslave men. Also, Segev is not me, so I thought I would clarify that is not what I meant.

Also, probably because they were posted close together in time.


And I disagree that it'd be the same thing, mentally. Or physically. All the feathers and stuff would kind of be all "Mmmmno. No. That's... nnnnoooo." Except for furries.

What? If that was in reference to my comment, it was to mean that mentally, they are human. They might have different tastes in the physical form, but mentally, they think much like a human does.

Also, I think that sailors stuck at sea for a few months might be less picky. I mean they made up mermaids for crying out loud.


But yeah. Amazons "Taking the men" which would be the rape I referred to. Harpies "Taking the men" would be the rape I referred to. And my comment of "Perspective of the writer creating a fantasy" was the whole "Amazon Sexual Fantasy" and other issues I didn't want to outright state as a way of avoiding insulting you.

I'd rather be insulted then confused, sometimes. Also, I appreciate bluntness, so if something seems super creepy, I don't mind it being pointed out. But thank you for being considerate.

But how would Amazons be begging for sex? They just run up and take it, I thought. I guess maybe they put on Fedoras and claim that men only want *****es and whine on reddit, but I don't really see how 'begging' for sex applies?

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 01:28 PM
It's interesting that you automatically assume it's "women begging for sex" and being coerced into being raped. I would have actually assumed, given harpy nature and...hygiene (even if you're into furries, harpies are said to be filthy and smelly)...that it's the males that're more likely to need coercion. Add in the harpies' charm songs and you get further into the rape being of the guys, not of the girls.

... What the hell? Wh...

So... When I said "Coercive Rape" I was referring to the humans being coerced. Not humans coercing harpies. How the hell did you read that and turn it around?

As to the "Begging for Sex" it's literally a group of women who need human males to have sex with them to continue the species. If it ain't violent rape or coercive rape (with their charm magic) it'll be begging for impregnation. I.E. Someone the first two don't work on.


Now, of course rape is creepy, but harpies are traditionally villainous creatures, so then being creepy is not entirely unexpected. Wanting to avoid the subject is reasonable, however.

Rape is more than creepy. But rape isn't the thing I was referring to as being creepy, but rather the social commentary that comes with harpies requiring humans to propagate.


But to assume the rape-undertones are male-on-female in this case, as coupling it with "women begging for sex" implies, is a bit odd.

I still have no idea where the heck you got this from. Is it that you assumed I meant rape as male on female because that's the only way rape can occur? I really didn't. And I don't see how my statement made that come across in any way.


I mean, take your "if it happened in real life" example: "Mars needs your penis to survive!" immediately comes off as some sort of male power fantasy and is implied to be creepy because those martian women are "needy" or "desperate" for human males.

That EXACTLY why it's creepy, Segev. Like. Yes. That literally thing there. If you have a species which has no means of propagation you have an absolute timer on how long you can go before extinction occurs. If there's a solution to freaking extinction and someone else has control of it you're gonna be needy or desperate to get it. The fact that it's a sexual fantasy (Not Power) is what makes it creepy when you really examine it from the perspective of the writer. If it happened in reality it'd be creepy enough, due to our social mores as regards sex and sexuality.

Though it wouldn't be the man's fault for being a creep. It'd be the Martians that seem creepy. The men who leap at the chance to "Save Mars" might be seen as sleazy for taking advantage of the situation, though, if it's placed in a certain light?

But when it's a writer creating fantasy? Alllll those hangups are in play.


Play my favorite game with it: "Mars needs your uterus to survive!" doesn't, somehow, make the women the creepy ones for having desperate, needy martians pining for human females. It makes the martians creepy predators.

It probably has something to do with the result of the interactions, with the men being able to walk away without an issue while women have to then carry the baby to term and all.

Or it could be a part of how our society has evolved to take advantage of women for SO FREAKING LONG that it's creepy for a different reason.


Why isn't "Mars needs your penis to survive!" making the martians the creepy predators?

It is. I never said it wasn't.

I did say that when written as fantasy it takes on societal considerations, though, whether the writer intends them or not (Creepy male sexual fantasy).

erikun
2017-03-27, 01:31 PM
Hrm. Probably going to go with the idea that harpies ARE all female...But some are biologically male, but rarer and do physically resemble females until the loinclothes come off. The vast majority would also identify as female, further confusing the issue. Female harpies are already lean for flight, and males would be very androgynous.
That sounds like it should work out. Especially since they are likely taking their culture from humanity (the first harpies having been human themselves) it would be understandable that they would all, or at least mostly, identify themselves as female-gender. Especialy if they all "look" female from a human perspective.

Also, having male (sex) harpies would avoid the worst of the problems with the race, such as requiring kidnapping/rape in order to reproduce.



Three, harpies are female sex (only) and female gender (primarily), and so you have a race of females. As you note, this would probably produce a very drow-like mindset, especially in looking down on men (not being harpies, among other things) and possibly having some captured or in a lower class in harpy society. You'd probably end up with something similar to drow society in treehouses, which does raise the question of why you would want to bother with it. Your group will certainly notice the similarity.
Hrm. Probably a strong emphasis on kinship bonds to reduce the stab-happy nature of the drow. You also can't take down a ship if you're worried about getting stabbed in the back. Also, due to being able to rest in cliffside caves, I could see a communal sense of property due to limited space.

Actually, I have to ask, why would this automatically result in a drow-like society? Just because its all female?
Similarities between the harpies and the drow was based on the assumption that male humans would be required in order to reproduce - that is, that the harpies could not reproduce on their own. If that were true, then it would require the harpies to either capture, enslave, or negotiate in order to produce breeding mates. The resulting society would have the (almost entirely) female harpies ruling things while the (almost entirely) males were either slaves or lower citizens. Combine that with a necessity towards slavery and/or kidnapping, and it would not be surprising that such a society would resemble how drow society works.

Of course, if you are allowing for male-sex harpies, then that elimiates that issue entirely. The harpies are not required to kidnap other species in order to reproduce, and so there is not xeno-centered reason to be baised against men in their society.


And thoughts on the race? It could establish more about the world itself, that would be hard to explain without more rambling.
Make sure the female:male ratio is not too extreme. 2:1 might still be fine, especially if none of your players really has a reason to be asking any questions. However, if you have something like 10:1 females to males, it would begin raising the question of why the (numerous, ruling) females would let the very rare males run around and potentially get hurt. The more rare the male harpies are, the more precious they would be and thus the more likely they would get specific treatment and you would begin to see a gender bias. If male harpies are still common enough that a female could reasonably find one, yet still in the minority, it would give the species the appearance of being mostly or all female (especially with them all identifying as female) without running into too much unexplained inconsistencies, for anyone who might ask.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 01:32 PM
But how would Amazons be begging for sex? They just run up and take it, I thought. I guess maybe they put on Fedoras and claim that men only want *****es and whine on reddit, but I don't really see how 'begging' for sex applies?

Because if you're not strong enough to take it, or not magical enough to coerce it, your only recourse is to ask.

And since we're talking about a species that CANNOT PROPAGATE without human male participation we're looking at begging. Going from man to man asking for some sperm.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 01:40 PM
Because if you're not strong enough to take it, or not magical enough to coerce it, your only recourse is to ask.

I must admit, I think I am very confused about your point. Firstly, you are assuming a female only race wouldn't have the ability to take what they want. Is it that you believe that a female only race is likely to be presented as militarily, tactically, economically, or financially inferior?

Secondly, I admit a great deal of confusion regarding the language of associating begging and rape. I think I need some more clarification.

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 02:09 PM
I must admit, I think I am very confused about your point. Firstly, you are assuming a female only race wouldn't have the ability to take what they want. Is it that you believe that a female only race is likely to be presented as militarily, tactically, economically, or financially inferior?

Secondly, I admit a great deal of confusion regarding the language of associating begging and rape. I think I need some more clarification.Steampunkette might be considering a scenario where the all-female race would not want to resort to rape, despite having the means. Because that would be, you know, the ethical thing to do. Alternatively, some all-female races would have the means and others wouldn't.

Then she explains how the non-rapist all-female race would inevitably be a victim instead. Maybe not of rape per say, but of an abusive relationship. Because being forever in the position of a beggar, the race could not build a proper relationship with humanity, even if no human purposely took advantage of this situation (and many would).

It would be the same with an all-male race, but the discussion is currently set on harpies.

That's how I read it.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 02:33 PM
Then she explains how the non-rapist all-female race would inevitably be a victim instead. Maybe not of rape per say, but of an abusive relationship. Because being forever in the position of a beggar, the race could not build a proper relationship with humanity, even if no human purposely took advantage of this situation (and many would).

It would be the same with an all-male race, but the discussion is currently set on harpies.

I think that's thinking in far too monolithic in groupings. By that logic applied at the personal level, anyone either male or female who wants kids is a beggar - because they have to go to the opposite gender to do so. (barring modern sperm banks etc.)

Especially if the female only species has a much lower population than the other species has, the number of males which they remove from circulation (for lack of a better term) would be rather insignificant.

Now - this is of course assuming that the males of the primary species find the female only species attractive and might want a relationship with one. Assuming that they do - I don't see it being an issue.

Now - if the female only species ARE a decent chunk of the two-species' population, I could see it leading to polygamy as there would basically be more female options than male ones. (Not the best thing in the world - but hardly the creepiness referenced earlier.)

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 02:49 PM
I think that's thinking in far too monolithic in groupings. By that logic applied at the personal level, anyone either male or female who wants kids is a beggar - because they have to go to the opposite gender to do so. (barring modern sperm banks etc.)Well, it is not at the personal level. Their species could go extinct if they don't get laid. Even if they are otherwise fine, it is not a pleasant thought to live with.


Especially if the female only species has a much lower population than the other species has, the number of males which they remove from circulation (for lack of a better term) would be rather insignificant.

Now - this is of course assuming that the males of the primary species find the female only species attractive and might want a relationship with one. Assuming that they do - I don't see it being an issue.

Now - if the female only species ARE a decent chunk of the two-species' population, I could see it leading to polygamy as there would basically be more female options than male ones. (Not the best thing in the world - but hardly the creepiness referenced earlier.)This is largely the plot of Everyday Life with Monster Girls. I won't pretend it treats the subject right, since it is indeed softcore porn. But eh, guilty.

Frozen_Feet
2017-03-27, 03:30 PM
Because if you're not strong enough to take it, or not magical enough to coerce it, your only recourse is to ask.

And since we're talking about a species that CANNOT PROPAGATE without human male participation we're looking at begging. Going from man to man asking for some sperm.

It's not begging. The right term is either dating or courting, provided the human men have no reason to take iniative. :smalltongue:

I mean, come on. Like CharonsHelper noted, everybody who wants kids and doesn't have a line of potential suitors behind their door has to do this. Man, woman, human, animal, everybody... okay, save for the weirdoes who do mitosis or partheogenesis instead. Interspecies courting maybe weird from a biological viewpoint, but nothing about it is socially more creepy than intraspecies courting... untill we get to Xenomorphs or parasitic wasps, at least.

BTW, I've heard of at least two ant species for which interspecies courting is a must... because when a male fertilizes a female, the male's genetic material tries to completely replace the female's, and vice versa. This leads to all males being clones of their fathers, and all females being clones of their mothers, and apparently this dynamic has lasted long enough that on a genetic level, the males and females are different species.

But otherwise? Still ants.

Segev
2017-03-27, 03:39 PM
Honestly, I don't see how it's any more or less creepy for a "monosex-only subspecies" to be dependent on mating with the opposite sex that only exists in the primary species than it is for the primary species's members of one sex to be dependent on mating with the other for that species's survival.

I certainly see how it could be fodder for somebody's fantasies, but so, too, would be a setting which created a dearth of one sex in order to make individual members of the rare sex more "needed."

If, for example, harpies could have male human kids as well as female harpy kids, the male human harpy-sons would keep the numbers roughly equal and would - assuming there were male humans who found harpies attractive (perhaps amongst those born to and raised by them) - keep it from being anything more than a point of interest.

Making it a race of rapine is squicky, but the "classic" explanation for half-orcs is equally squicky for exactly the same reason, and we don't say "ew don't have orcs be that way!" on that basis alone.

CharonsHelper
2017-03-27, 03:53 PM
If, for example, harpies could have male human kids as well as female harpy kids, the male human harpy-sons would keep the numbers roughly equal and would - assuming there were male humans who found harpies attractive (perhaps amongst those born to and raised by them) - keep it from being anything more than a point of interest.

Actually - would they even be a different species at that point from a biological point of view even if they didn't ever have sons? At most they'd be a sub-species like dogs/wolves. They'd just be females which have a REALLY odd trait which is 100% passed on to their daughters. (I believe that biologically you're the same species if your offspring could eventually mate with each-other.)

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 04:05 PM
It's not begging. The right term is either dating or courting, provided the human men have no reason to take iniative. :smalltongue:

I imagined harpies to often take the form as depicted on the Burney Relief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief), to avoid issues of penalties to disarming traps or wearing certain magical items. I guess shoes and cloaks are out, but I think most everything else could be workable. This removes the Mermaid Dilemma from the equation, so I imagine getting the species to survive via throwing money at guys or other means would be far more viable. Heck, male prostitution might even be a factor.

Through this conversation is really making me lean to the idea that while everyone is female, some of them just have different equipment. The idea that they kidnap males could be a myth regarding them that other people made up, unaware that such was really not a viable or necessary option. Could even be a story of a crew mutinying and trying to offer their captain over as tribute for safe passage, probably to the confusion of various parties.


Actually - would they even be a different species at that point from a biological point of view even if they didn't ever have sons? At most they'd be a sub-species like dogs/wolves. They'd just be females which have a REALLY odd trait which is 100% passed on to their daughters. (I believe that biologically you're the same species if your offspring could eventually mate with each-other.)

I think at the point divine curses or other forms of magic are entering the equation there needs to be a better definition of species.

Millstone85
2017-03-27, 04:18 PM
Actually - would they even be a different species at that point from a biological point of view even if they didn't ever have sons? At most they'd be a sub-species like dogs/wolves. They'd just be females which have a REALLY odd trait which is 100% passed on to their daughters. (I believe that biologically you're the same species if your offspring could eventually mate with each-other.)In the case where they can have human sons, we are getting to the half-elf problem.

If half-elves can procreate with humans, elves and other half-elves, then the continuing existence of distinct fantasy races can become a matter of, well, racism. Preserving the purity of elven blood and all that.

I suppose that would happen with these harpies too, with the twist that only "the female human" would feel threatened.

Steampunkette
2017-03-27, 05:17 PM
Millstone more or less got what I was trying to say.

And I was going off D&D's Chaotic Evil greasy nasty cruel harpies who sing their charming song and lead people off cliffs.

Chaotic Evil doesn't "Date".

(Of course you could argue that a given chaotic evil person would date, but this would be a seriously different situation.)

But yeah. Then there's the whole "Fantasy Racism" thing and the issue of harpies and their position within (Or in opposition to) society.

If Harpies -are- the CE "Lure people off cliffs to laugh as they plummet and pick goods off their body" type of being, dating one would be akin to dating a member of a whole species of serial killers and rapists... At least with dating an orc you can blame the endless fighting on land or resources, divine arguments, or other things that warring nations dealt with in reality.

A whole race of people who cackle in glee as they magically make men leap to their doom, use magic or violence to commit rape to propagate their own species, and are literal monstrosities (Like, the Creature Type)...

I don't see there being people who'd date, there, outside of the extreme Romeo and Juliet rarity (And we all know how that one ended)

kopout
2017-03-27, 05:49 PM
In that case though "they can only reproduce by rape" is caused by the fact that they are not just a monosex race but a sadistic serial killer monosex race. A monosex race with a more neutral alignment wouldn't necessarily have those problems.

Grim Portent
2017-03-27, 06:22 PM
There is a narrative place for races that must reproduce with other species, but it's probably not one of players and protagonists.

By their nature a species that needs the men/women of other peoples to survive is going to have to make some very dark choices as a society, especially if they aren't physically appealing, and that alone makes them more suited to antagonists, tragic ones if cursed to be the way they are, otherwise just monsters really.

D&D harpies and the old Warhammer Fantasy fimir for example are not exactly what springs to mind when words like hero, or nice, or attractive are thrown around. Unless you preface them with the word not.


A mono-gendered species needs to be either part of the society it breeds with, so breeding is just a normal part of their life and they have no drive to preserve their way of life because it's part of the wider society, or needs to reproduce independent of other species. Otherwise any time the population drops a bit they're going to get desperate, and that will lead to uncomfortable implications.

In this case Tiefling, since you seem to want harpies to be playable and not be evil or particularly tragic, I'd suggest having them just be a type of human as far as most are concerned. If they're descended from a curse and driven out of their original society, why wouldn't they just move into the fringes of another society? I could see enclaves of harpies renting cheap living spaces on peoples roofs and living as part of human society, though likely as an underclass. As long as the population is big enough, and they're not scorned by normal humans too badly, they could continue the same way normal humans do fairly easily. Drunken flings, actual romantic connection, casual rolls in the hay, arranged marriages and so on as part of being human would provide more than enough sexual partners to produce young, especially if they have more than one child at a time.

Honest Tiefling
2017-03-27, 06:29 PM
Well, I feel a little silly. I probably should have specified that while they ARE harpies, they would be adapted for the campaign for the following reasons:

1) While I have issues with the Aarakorca race speaking without lips, I thought that the harpy would be an excellent replacement for the stats. (Also, I wanted it to not feel like Forgotten Realms)
2) Plenty of artwork of winged humanoids for tokens, provided one is willing to crop the feet. (For Roll20, feet are not needed)
3) My group knows how to pronounce the word and will remember what race is the winged woman race.

So they would occupy a niche closer to a very humanoid kobold or goblin: Pushed to the edges of civilization, they had few resources, forcing many into scavenging or piracy. Over generations they have not had a great reputation due to these actions, but are no more or less evil then humans. Of late, a religious organization has decided to ally with a group (but not all) harpies to fend off merfolk, who view all land based races as a potential food source to establish to the players that merfolk really are nasty things and to allow the harpy player option.

Also explains why a lot of people believe all harpies to be physically female, as I would imagine that a race with flight is uninclined to have junk in the trunk and can be easily confused with clothing.


If they're descended from a curse and driven out of their original society, why wouldn't they just move into the fringes of another society?

Because not all of the other societies are friendly places, either.


I could see enclaves of harpies renting cheap living spaces on peoples roofs and living as part of human society, though likely as an underclass.

Love the idea of harpies on roofs.


As long as the population is big enough, and they're not scorned by normal humans too badly, they could continue the same way normal humans do fairly easily. Drunken flings, actual romantic connection, casual rolls in the hay, arranged marriages and so on as part of being human would provide more than enough sexual partners to produce young, especially if they have more than one child at a time.

The problem I have with the later is that multiple births aren't even a good thing for humans, and I imagine that smaller humans (for flight!) would not be a good place to find twins.

Grim Portent
2017-03-27, 06:37 PM
The problem I have with the later is that multiple births aren't even a good thing for humans, and I imagine that smaller humans (for flight!) would not be a good place to find twins.

I was assuming they'd lay eggs, which is far less taxing on the body per offspring than live birth is. Even a small human could probably lay 2-3 eggs the size of an ostrich one quite easily, for a given value of easily anyway. More if they do it over the course of a few days or weeks.

They'd need to be well fed of course, egg yolk is very energy rich and takes a lot out of the mother, as does the calcium expenditure, you basically dump all the energy needs of pregnancy into a period of a few weeks, but it's much easier to get multiple babies that way.

It would also result in a smaller baby relative to a normal one, but that's been a perfectly workable method for birds and reptiles in the real world for millennia.

zeek0
2017-03-28, 03:21 AM
I once encountered a homebrew race that was radically different than way has been mentioned. A vanilla race was cursed, causing some number of female babies to be scorpion-woman-centaur things. At birth these would be given to their fellow cursed, which had a society and culture removed. The cursed offspring are infertile.

So they don't reproduce on their own, but still have unique physical and cultural characteristics. It would be a stretch to call it a matriarchy, since there's no other gender present.

GloatingSwine
2017-03-28, 03:43 AM
So I am trying to make a singled gendered race for a homebrew setting. Reading about some examples on TVtropes has made me question if this is a good idea, and if they can be done well. Anyone want to give me advice on how to make an appealing and interesting race?

A one gender race probably isn't a good idea.

Extreme sexual dimorphism, now that's got possibilities. The male and female of a species being so completely different that they're hard to recognise as the same at all. (as an eg. in Charles Stross' Equoid unicorns are a species with extreme sexual dimorphism. The horn is actually the male of the species, or rather it's shell after the actual male has been absorbed like with anglerfish.)