Avoiding "Gotcha" DM moments without removing the threat of failure

[TrinculoLives]

Last night, I was running an adventure in an abandoned temple of Shar situated in the midst of the catacombs.
Having randomly rolled some rooms using the back of the DMG, I had come up with the idea that the temple had been used as a Divination Chamber that relied on the burning of the dead bodies of creatures. Basically, the ritual done in the proper way with the proper observances would allow a creature to ask three questions about an event that had occurred in the darkness. (Darkness being Shar's thing.)

So, going into it, I figured that the PCs needed to do a few things for this to work:

1. They needed to explore the area and bring back, and wear, the priests' garments in a neighbouring room.
2. They needed to place a body in the offering area.
3. They needed to intone the proper words for the ritual to work. (Carved over the first doorway they enter to get into the temple.
4. They needed to pass a moderate Religion check.

Success would mean that they'd be granted a vision of whatever they were asking about. Failure in any of these regards would mean that the blade trap concealed in the wall behind the altar would attempt to cut the one performing the ritual in two.

I thought, neat, this will work well. I wanted to offer something cool (visions of anything that has occurred in the darkness? Holy crow that could be almost anything!), while also requiring them to think a bit to succeed.

Assuming you used this same set-up, what steps if any would you take to offer hints to the players?

My trouble was that I didn't want this to feel like a DM "gotcha" moment but I also wanted the players to feel as though there is a definite right and wrong way to go about offering a sacrifice to an evil deity in exchange for knowledge.

I described the remnants of ash and char in the depression before the altar, and "runes of fire". The party found the priests' garments. They encountered the ghost of a former adventurer, who informed them that her body was burned in the depression by her companions, who needed knowledge of how to get past an obstacle further in the dungeon.

But when it came down to it, it seemed as though my players simply got frustrated by the puzzle and didn't know what to do. I didn't feel great about springing the trap on them when they acted out stumbling through a mock ceremony, but at the same time I thought, "well, if they're not going to keep notes of things written over the doors to evil temples, then they deserve to struggle now and again."

(Apologies in advance if this bothers anyone's knowledge of Shar lore.)

Edit: I meant to mark this "DM Help", but can't seem to find that option now.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a VERY high DC to notice the trap would have helped. Maybe a bit more description? I would assume that humanoid ashes are very different from wood ash, which might have helped a wee bit.

The problem is, while it might be clear that you need to burn a body or flesh to jump start the ritual, but I don't think it is unreasonable to assume there might be more going on with the ritual then was suggested. How do you know you got all of the bits until you cast the super dangerous ritual? This is Shar after all, a woman not exactly known to play fair. The problem with the puzzle is that risk is high, and you can't really be sure your answers will be correct even if you did it right. So basically, no way to know it was done right and little reward? I can see your player's frustration here, and personally I would have skipped the puzzle anyway due to these reasons.

I think a puzzle like this one should have been made to be highly optional, maybe seen as a high risk/high reward option that might also go super badly. But it's a ritual to a very evil goddess, I think adding the option to do such without expecting players to do it makes more sense. It's a ritual to an extremely dangerous god after all, it's not meant to be fair or easy. Just the presence of it adds a lot of neat flavor, and might be an option worth returning to when they have more means to determine what to do.

[pwykersotz]

Gotcha traps cease to become gotchas if the players can see them.

I would have made it clear that the walls housed countless slots for blades to emerge, and even had an errant blade lodged in the floor. In such a case, the players then try to figure out how to play around the trap. They can try to cleverly disarm it, or else try to figure out how these people who clearly were in here regularly managed to not trigger it. Pictographs or tapestries on the wall might indicate the priests praying unscathed.

Giving away that info might seem like a letdown, but keep in mind that players still don't know if they have everything. What's the key to the trap? The body on the altar? Could it be any object, or need it be a body? The clothes? Would an illusion work instead?

I have yet to see any trap that is satisfying and interesting to the players which is designed to be hidden whose sole purpose is to hit the party with death/damage. On the other hand, the players almost universally are talking the next day about the ones that are properly telegraphed.

Just my 2cp.

[BurgerBeast]

I'm not great at this, but I would try to give three solid hints about each piece of the puzzle.


1. They needed to explore the area and bring back, and wear, the priests' garments in a neighbouring room.

Symbols in the room to show that it is tied to Shar (I think you did this well), strong hints about the colour of Shar's robes (or smoother way to identify them). Maybe a dead body in the room, killed by the trap, wearing the correct robe. I might have a few shrines in the complex to other gods, so that when the PCs find the robes, there are robes to other gods and there are hints about which robes are the correct ones. Maybe the robes are hanging under the symbols of deities, or maybe under inscriptions (in this case Shar's robes are under the same inscription found at the entrance to the dungeon - the words the players need to remember).


2. They needed to place a body in the offering area.

Carvings or paintings of the ritual with a body clearly being burned and an image of Shar responding to the ritual favourably. Maybe the place where the body is supposed to be placed is obvious in that it is designed to hold a human body.


3. They needed to intone the proper words for the ritual to work. (Carved over the first doorway they enter to get into the temple.)

Again, also have them inscribed in other places in association with Shar. Maybe plan an encounter with priests of Shar and have them use the same words as a greeting. Or have the PCs encounter a minor ritual to Shar in which the words are used to lesser effect.

[Laserlight]

Maybe a dead body in the room, killed by the trap, wearing the correct robe.

The players don't know that they're the right robes. If I see someone in black robes killed by a trap, I am certainly not going to leap to the conclusion "Oh,. he must have had the right robes and did something else wrong".

I would make it clear up front that there is a ritual and it has several facets they have to get right if they want it to work; I would not give them clues about A and B and C separately and rely on them to realize that they all go together to make ABC. Remember, you know the stuff goes together; the players don't.

[BurgerBeast]

The players don't know that they're the right robes. If I see someone in black robes killed by a trap, I am certainly not going to leap to the conclusion "Oh,. he must have had the right robes and did something else wrong".

I would make it clear up front that there is a ritual and it has several facets they have to get right if they want it to work; I would not give them clues about A and B and C separately and rely on them to realize that they all go together to make ABC. Remember, you know the stuff goes together; the players don't.

I agree, and I considered this as I wrote it. I still think it would be a good way to do it, in combination with other hints that show that the robes are correct. In this way, it would convey that there is "more to it" than the robes. This one is tricky, though.

So, how do you "make it clear up front"? s there an in game way? Or do you just say it out-of-game. I personally don't mind just saying it, ad I do this sometimes. But it would be cool to have an in game way to do it. However, short of showing them people failing at the attempts, I personally have a hard time coming up with even bad ways to do it.

[pwykersotz]

I agree, and I considered this as I wrote it. I still think it would be a good way to do it, in combination with other hints that show that the robes are correct. In this way, it would convey that there is "more to it" than the robes. This one is tricky, though.

So, how do you "make it clear up front"? s there an in game way? Or do you just say it out-of-game. I personally don't mind just saying it, ad I do this sometimes. But it would be cool to have an in game way to do it. However, short of showing them people failing at the attempts, I personally have a hard time coming up with even bad ways to do it.

Making things clear up front is just a matter of including descriptions of the elements that would clue a party into the fact that there is a ritual involved while describing the rest of the environment. You don't have to use out of game terms, but when you describe the half melted candles and pentogram on the floor, you can also add in lines here and there about "clearly a dark ritual gone awry" or similar.

One way to do it would be to have a book of the ritual with a single instruction on each page. The problem is, three of the final pages are missing. The party can intuit (or you can say overtly) that clearly three instructions are missing for the success of the ritual. Then they can search for clues and try to piece it together. And here's where the "three hints" come in, each missing instruction can have three pieces of supporting evidence so that the players can be reasonably sure if they do manage to figure it out.

[TrinculoLives]

I think a VERY high DC to notice the trap would have helped...
Yeah it was a DC 20 Perception check to notice the blade slot. One player actually has a passive Perception of 21 or something so he got clued in on that right away. He really got hung up on it, like, "wait, so what is this slot for? Can I insert <some object> into it? What does it do if I touch it?" I had to tell him, "It's well hidden, as though whoever put it there didn't want it noticed", before he realized it was a trap.


...I think a puzzle like this one should have been made to be highly optional, maybe seen as a high risk/high reward option that might also go super badly. But it's a ritual to a very evil goddess, I think adding the option to do such without expecting players to do it makes more sense. It's a ritual to an extremely dangerous god after all, it's not meant to be fair or easy. Just the presence of it adds a lot of neat flavor, and might be an option worth returning to when they have more means to determine what to do.

Perhaps if a puzzle like this is optional, one doesn't need to worry so much about including plenty of clues as to how it works.


Gotcha traps cease to become gotchas if the players can see them.

I would have made it clear that the walls housed countless slots for blades to emerge, and even had an errant blade lodged in the floor. In such a case, the players then try to figure out how to play around the trap. They can try to cleverly disarm it, or else try to figure out how these people who clearly were in here regularly managed to not trigger it. Pictographs or tapestries on the wall might indicate the priests praying unscathed.

Giving away that info might seem like a letdown, but keep in mind that players still don't know if they have everything. What's the key to the trap? The body on the altar? Could it be any object, or need it be a body? The clothes? Would an illusion work instead?

I have yet to see any trap that is satisfying and interesting to the players which is designed to be hidden whose sole purpose is to hit the party with death/damage. On the other hand, the players almost universally are talking the next day about the ones that are properly telegraphed.

Just my 2cp.

Thanks for the contribution.

I think you're right about traps. As long as the solution to a trap isn't "I walk around it", it is often just fine if the players learn of its presence.

It can feel like one is giving away too much sometimes. Puzzles are an area of D&D that I don't quite "get" yet. The fun part of puzzles, to me, is the "aha!" moment. It's tricky to make that happen at the table for me.


Making things clear up front is just a matter of including descriptions of the elements that would clue a party into the fact that there is a ritual involved while describing the rest of the environment. You don't have to use out of game terms, but when you describe the half melted candles and pentogram on the floor, you can also add in lines here and there about "clearly a dark ritual gone awry" or similar.

One way to do it would be to have a book of the ritual with a single instruction on each page. The problem is, three of the final pages are missing. The party can intuit (or you can say overtly) that clearly three instructions are missing for the success of the ritual. Then they can search for clues and try to piece it together. And here's where the "three hints" come in, each missing instruction can have three pieces of supporting evidence so that the players can be reasonably sure if they do manage to figure it out.
So perhaps the method is like this:

First, you need to firmly establish exactly what is going on in the current situation. It's an altar that can be used to offer sacrifices to Shar. If successful, Shar offers guidance to the sacrificer. If unsuccessful, the altar is designed to punish the sacrificer.

Once that is established, the question becomes, "How do we (the party) successfully perform this ceremony?

It is then up to the players to figure out the answer to that question (thanks to these clues), but it is essential that the players first know what the question is.

[Zilong]

Hey, found my dm's account :smalltongue:

Anyway, the trap itself wasn't particularly frustrating. Nor the ritual even, it just seemed there was an underlying assumption by the party that, since we were dealing with an Evil god, there would indeed be some kind of monkey's paw situation. I think most of us figured out as players that the trap was a trap, but our characters were trying to piece things together in a weird way.

Traps are inherently gotcha's pretty much whenever they are used. No matter how obvious the trap or solution, there's gonna be groups who manage to muck it up. Doesn't make them bad unless they arbitrarily deal 100d10 unresistable damage with no save because the players missed "muh plothooks". They're just another challenge players may or may not overcome with varying amounts of shenanigans and hilarity.

If you wanted to make this particular instance, if you wanted to make things absolutely clear, there could be a ritual book hidden away in a cupboard or desk somewhere which the pc's could stumble upon which details what needs to be done as someone else already suggested.

[Honest Tiefling]

Hey, found my dm's account :smalltongue:

Anyway, the trap itself wasn't particularly frustrating. Nor the ritual even, it just seemed there was an underlying assumption by the party that, since we were dealing with an Evil god, there would indeed be some kind of monkey's paw situation. I think most of us figured out as players that the trap was a trap, but our characters were trying to piece things together in a weird way.

HA! I am finally vindicated by the results of advice! Whoohoo!

I mean, well, yes...Shar is NE in most editions, so why would she be bound to grant goodies to people who don't follow her? If anything is going to be able to detect a true follower or not, it should probably be an altar.

[Zilong]

Basically what my last long winded post was meant to say was that there was nothing particularly bad about the scenario, just players being players and being dumb. So the usual as far as most groups I've seen.

[Honest Tiefling]

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I accidentally once made a simple encounter take several hours because I convinced the party that the obvious answer was TOO obvious.

But good to hear that the encounter went well, over all. I'd still consider making future puzzle encounters optional, because many people enjoy alternative solutions.

[Addaran]

I mean, well, yes...Shar is NE in most editions, so why would she be bound to grant goodies to people who don't follow her? If anything is going to be able to detect a true follower or not, it should probably be an altar.

I could see her following her parts. It's an offering to her, so technically it will give her more powers. It could also be seen as a win against the character's deity. "your followers turned to me when in need, ah!" She's essentially corrupting them, especially if they worship a good god.

[Pex]

Personal curiosity.

Was doing the ritual necessary to help complete the adventure? Would the party guaranteed have a hard time later in something if they did not do it? Personal bias, I'd likely be playing a Good character and would never do the ritual even if I knew perfectly how to make it work. If your players were all ok in doing this, great, I have no beef. I'm cautioning to think about what would happen if the party decides not do something you specifically wanted them to do, especially for another type of "gotcha" where a PC would go against his morality to do it. Do the something, fall from grace. Don't do the something, fail the mission.

[Zilong]

We didn't have a morality problem. Most of us are essentially some flavor of neutral or neutral good (my character). Hell, there is even a cleric of another evil deity. Plus we got around messy moral issues by using the body of someone who tried to eat us earlier.

Technically, as presented, we could have got around the ritual, we just would have been stumbling around for a while and the dilemma at hand was somewhat time gated.

[Honest Tiefling]

I could see her following her parts. It's an offering to her, so technically it will give her more powers. It could also be seen as a win against the character's deity. "your followers turned to me when in need, ah!" She's essentially corrupting them, especially if they worship a good god.

So you gotta gamble on if an evil goddess will see more worth in corrupting you, or killing you. Not good odds.

Also, I don't think the gods actually get power from offerings? Unless something has changed from earlier editions, worship is power, not offerings. So trying to get the reward without offering prayers or other forms of worship (which might be difficult for certain parties) might offend gods and give them little reason to waste power on you. And I assume tossing random things into fire without thinking or saying prayers is probably not worship, else most PCs perform worship on a weekly basis.

[Zilong]

So you gotta gamble on if an evil goddess will see more worth in corrupting you, or killing you. Not good odds.

Also, I don't think the gods actually get power from offerings? Unless something has changed from earlier editions, worship is power, not offerings. So trying to get the reward without offering prayers or other forms of worship (which might be difficult for certain parties) might offend gods and give them little reason to waste power on you. And I assume tossing random things into fire without thinking or saying prayers is probably not worship, else most PCs perform worship on a weekly basis.
Especially considering one of our party may or may not have pissed Shar off earlier (he wanted to pee in the ritual basin, but instead opted to pry out a rune, shar was not pleased).

[Vogonjeltz]

Last night, I was running an adventure in an abandoned temple of Shar situated in the midst of the catacombs.
Having randomly rolled some rooms using the back of the DMG, I had come up with the idea that the temple had been used as a Divination Chamber that relied on the burning of the dead bodies of creatures. Basically, the ritual done in the proper way with the proper observances would allow a creature to ask three questions about an event that had occurred in the darkness. (Darkness being Shar's thing.)

So, going into it, I figured that the PCs needed to do a few things for this to work:

1. They needed to explore the area and bring back, and wear, the priests' garments in a neighbouring room.
2. They needed to place a body in the offering area.
3. They needed to intone the proper words for the ritual to work. (Carved over the first doorway they enter to get into the temple.
4. They needed to pass a moderate Religion check.

Success would mean that they'd be granted a vision of whatever they were asking about. Failure in any of these regards would mean that the blade trap concealed in the wall behind the altar would attempt to cut the one performing the ritual in two.

I thought, neat, this will work well. I wanted to offer something cool (visions of anything that has occurred in the darkness? Holy crow that could be almost anything!), while also requiring them to think a bit to succeed.

Assuming you used this same set-up, what steps if any would you take to offer hints to the players?

My trouble was that I didn't want this to feel like a DM "gotcha" moment but I also wanted the players to feel as though there is a definite right and wrong way to go about offering a sacrifice to an evil deity in exchange for knowledge.

I described the remnants of ash and char in the depression before the altar, and "runes of fire". The party found the priests' garments. They encountered the ghost of a former adventurer, who informed them that her body was burned in the depression by her companions, who needed knowledge of how to get past an obstacle further in the dungeon.

But when it came down to it, it seemed as though my players simply got frustrated by the puzzle and didn't know what to do. I didn't feel great about springing the trap on them when they acted out stumbling through a mock ceremony, but at the same time I thought, "well, if they're not going to keep notes of things written over the doors to evil temples, then they deserve to struggle now and again."

(Apologies in advance if this bothers anyone's knowledge of Shar lore.)

Edit: I meant to mark this "DM Help", but can't seem to find that option now.

So...you gave them a clue that they could burn a body for knowledge in the depression, and no hint that this is a (bizarrely) trapped ritual room? Seriously, who expects a religious ritual to be a giant death trap for any priest who screwed up and mumbled a word? That just sounds crazy.

Next time, provide a series of murals depicting the ritual and the consequences of failure. I don't know why anyone would bother with a ritual for mere knowledge when the risk is death.

[Honest Tiefling]

Especially considering one of our party may or may not have pissed Shar off earlier (he wanted to pee in the ritual basin, but instead opted to pry out a rune, shar was not pleased).

Your party is indeed wise in not performing the ritual.

[Zilong]

Your party is indeed wise in not performing the ritual.

Oh no, we did it anyway...twice.

[Hrugner]

For puzzle traps like this, it's a good idea to consider how the trap knows when to trigger and include that mechanism into the clues and solution. It could be a magic sensor of some sort, but that leaves you with less material to work with for solutions, and in 5th ed they could simply cast identify on the sensor and figure out how to use it. A mechanical solution to this could be hard to work out though.

One possible method:
1: Put a series of pressure plates around the depression that need to be stepped on in an order defined by the ritual itself.
2: Make the robes extremely heavy with a long weighted train behind so it is required to activate the right plates at the right time. Put obvious wear from drag marks across the bottom of the robe and put some thread remnants of a distinctive color or material snagged on the pressure plates.
3: Let the burned body requirement remain magically sensed.
4: Put a series of large cylindrical bells in the ceiling that make a slight hum when their attuned word is spoken. Whenever a character says a word from the ritual one of the bells will start humming. If spoken from the right position the bells ring clearly.

[Addaran]

So you gotta gamble on if an evil goddess will see more worth in corrupting you, or killing you. Not good odds.

Also, I don't think the gods actually get power from offerings? Unless something has changed from earlier editions, worship is power, not offerings. So trying to get the reward without offering prayers or other forms of worship (which might be difficult for certain parties) might offend gods and give them little reason to waste power on you. And I assume tossing random things into fire without thinking or saying prayers is probably not worship, else most PCs perform worship on a weekly basis.

The way i see it, offering is some kind of worship.

Just tossing random things in fire is not worship, but doing so in the religious ritual way seems like it would be.

[TrinculoLives]

Hey, found my dm's account :smalltongue:

Anyway, the trap itself wasn't particularly frustrating. Nor the ritual even, it just seemed there was an underlying assumption by the party that, since we were dealing with an Evil god, there would indeed be some kind of monkey's paw situation. I think most of us figured out as players that the trap was a trap, but our characters were trying to piece things together in a weird way.
Oh hey Yu Min. :smallwink:

It's interesting that you mention this underlying assumption. That's something that I would have expected Yu Min to say to the party, or at least to the other players out-of-character.


Personal curiosity.

Was doing the ritual necessary to help complete the adventure? Would the party guaranteed have a hard time later in something if they did not do it? Personal bias, I'd likely be playing a Good character and would never do the ritual even if I knew perfectly how to make it work. If your players were all ok in doing this, great, I have no beef. I'm cautioning to think about what would happen if the party decides not do something you specifically wanted them to do, especially for another type of "gotcha" where a PC would go against his morality to do it. Do the something, fall from grace. Don't do the something, fail the mission.

Yes, it was definitely necessary as I understood the adventure at the time. I think that if one of the players had stood up against the idea of offering a sacrifice to Shar because it's an evil act, I would have been so pleased and surprised that I would have helped steer things towards another solution.
They were on the train, in other words, but the tracks were being laid down as they went.


So...you gave them a clue that they could burn a body for knowledge in the depression, and no hint that this is a (bizarrely) trapped ritual room? Seriously, who expects a religious ritual to be a giant death trap for any priest who screwed up and mumbled a word? That just sounds crazy.

Next time, provide a series of murals depicting the ritual and the consequences of failure. I don't know why anyone would bother with a ritual for mere knowledge when the risk is death.
Meh. It's an evil deity's divination chamber that is fueled by dead bodies. Not only is there a very useful thing to do with anyone who is killed; but if one of the gods' temples are trapped, it's probably going to be someone like Shar.


For puzzle traps like this, it's a good idea to consider how the trap knows when to trigger and include that mechanism into the clues and solution. It could be a magic sensor of some sort, but that leaves you with less material to work with for solutions, and in 5th ed they could simply cast identify on the sensor and figure out how to use it. A mechanical solution to this could be hard to work out though.

One possible method:
1: Put a series of pressure plates around the depression that need to be stepped on in an order defined by the ritual itself.
2: Make the robes extremely heavy with a long weighted train behind so it is required to activate the right plates at the right time. Put obvious wear from drag marks across the bottom of the robe and put some thread remnants of a distinctive color or material snagged on the pressure plates.
3: Let the burned body requirement remain magically sensed.
4: Put a series of large cylindrical bells in the ceiling that make a slight hum when their attuned word is spoken. Whenever a character says a word from the ritual one of the bells will start humming. If spoken from the right position the bells ring clearly.

That's quite a technical approach. I usually hand-wave anything deity-related -- perhaps Shar is simply watching -- but those are some cool ways to illustrate a ritual going well.


The way i see it, offering is some kind of worship.

Just tossing random things in fire is not worship, but doing so in the religious ritual way seems like it would be.
The gist of it is that the soul of a creature whose body is sacrificed here is trapped within the temple in the form of a ghost: they cannot leave until the temple itself is destroyed. Shar gains power from this, so even pseudo-worship is worth it for her.

In the chamber next door I described the rows of chanting ghosts as belonging to all those who had been sacrificed before.