Necromancer Advice

[Naanomi]

A player is looking to make a necromancer, and dedicate most of their resources into an undead army... spell slots going daily to them, equipping them, etc. I know the risk of bogging down play with this, but I think the group will handle it well overall. But a few questions:

In general, what is the best use of your spell slots? Mass skeletons?

Are ghouls/wights/mummies worth the reduced numbers (or is that a benefit really, because of space limitations?)

What is the 'best' Controlled Undead to seek out? The mummy lord looked good to me (and had low enough Intelligence to be functional)?

[Scathain]

A player is looking to make a necromancer, and dedicate most of their resources into an undead army... spell slots going daily to them, equipping them, etc. I know the risk of bogging down play with this, but I think the group will handle it well overall. But a few questions:

In general, what is the best use of your spell slots? Mass skeletons?

Are ghouls/wights/mummies worth the reduced numbers (or is that a benefit really, because of space limitations?)

What is the 'best' Controlled Undead to seek out? The mummy lord looked good to me (and had low enough Intelligence to be functional)?

Skeletons are great, and shown in a lot of minionmancy guides, but when you're starting out, I find you get a lot more mileage out of zombies. Unless you're up against enemies with a lot of radiant damage (in which case you're boned either way) the only way to down a zombie without worrying about the save is to crit, and that's not really something that can be counted on consistently (other than in edge Champion/similar builds). Even in large numbers, I find zombies to be incredibly resilient.

[Segev]

I will point out that finger of death can get you zombies you don't have to keep renewing control over.

[Corran]

A player is looking to make a necromancer, and dedicate most of their resources into an undead army... spell slots going daily to them, equipping them, etc. I know the risk of bogging down play with this, but I think the group will handle it well overall. But a few questions:

In general, what is the best use of your spell slots? Mass skeletons?

Are ghouls/wights/mummies worth the reduced numbers (or is that a benefit really, because of space limitations?)

What is the 'best' Controlled Undead to seek out? The mummy lord looked good to me (and had low enough Intelligence to be functional)?
Give me a minute to search in my dnd folder for some precious advice I found on this forum a long time ago and made sure to keep a copy of.... (dozens of such posts from various forum members, copied and pasted shamelessly in my dnd folder)

Here are the ones regarding playing a necromancer (all of it MaxWilson's ideas):


1.) Prefer skeletons with bows over zombies for damage-dealing. Easier to concentrate fire. Zombies are primarily tanks who absorb damage.

2.) Up-armor and up-equip your skeletons with scale mail and heavy crossbows/longbows, and your zombies with chain mail and shields or greatswords. There's a huge difference in utility between an AC 8 naked zombie and an AC 18 armored zombie.

3.) Remember that each and every one of your skeletons and zombies can be either not just for direct attacks but for Helping other PCs attack, for scattering caltrops, for opportunity attacks, and for grappling.

4.) One or two skeletons can throw nets so that all the other skeletons (and PCs) and shoot the things restrained in nets at advantage.

Normally, net-throwing is always at disadvantage, but if you throw a net on a prone target from 5' away, it's a normal attack. Then if you back away, it's an opportunity attack at disadvantage.

5.) Armored zombies that have been ordered to Dodge still get an opportunity attack if someone tries to pass by them.

6.) Keep your skeletons dispersed over a wide area if possible so they're not all vulnerable to the same AoE (esp. Turning). This can sometimes mean that you leave a detachment of skeletons behind to guard the rear while the PCs and a handful (four or six) of skeletons come with the PCs to act as meat shields.

7.) Consider investing in cheap sources of temp HP such as Inspiring Leader feat from a Cthulock. Note that Aura of Vitality can heal undead.

8.) Make sure you have buy-in from your fellow PCs. Armored zombies are only good meat shields to the extent that the other PCs are willing to utilize them as such. There's a huge difference in effectiveness between a GWM fighter who is racing to get ahead of the zombies so they won't steal his kills, vs. one who is calmly waiting for zombies to grapple and/or push certain targets prone so he can slaughter them with advantage.

Meat shields like undead are particularly useful for a ranged-heavy party like a bunch of bardlocks and wizards. The undead fill in for the usual barbarians/fighters/etc.

9.) Zombies and skeletons are immune to your Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill spells. Grappling (or throwing nets on) targets in a stinking cloud prevents them from just exiting the cloud; meanwhile, the Stinking Cloud prevents them from easily removing the net. Win/win.

10.) (Necromancer-created) Skeletons that dual-wield short swords are amazingly good damage-dealers. 2d6+8 (15) points of damage total, at level 6, rising as high as 2d6+15 (21) at level 20.

11.) Do things that give you minions (and other PCs) advantage. Otto's Irresistible Dance, Web spell, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc.

12.) Undead tend to be weak against certain kinds of threats such as Medusas, Basilisks, Banshees, etc. To counter this, see point #6 above: disperse. Make sure you never have all of your skeletons in a position where one Banshee or one Fireball could wipe them all out.

13.) Manage your bonus action carefully. You only get one command per turn; try to give as many commands in advance as possible. See if your skeletons are smart enough to understand commands like, "Hey, youse! See this fighter? Kill anything he's killing, and nothing else, okay?"




Once you start playing seriously with Planar Binding, undead minions quickly become superfluous. I would recommend half a dozen Nycaloths for the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo, but watch out! they can Dispel their own Planar Bindings and become free-willed*! (For similar reasons they are a pain to bind in the first place. The two feasible routes I know of are True Polymorph and Feeblemind, and Feeblemind is easier.) Invisible Stalkers and Earth/Air Elementals are easier to get and still pretty useful.

Even at high levels you'll probably have a wight bodyguard (Controlled permanently via your 14th level feature) and a few zombies (animated by the wight, or by you using Finger of Death) just for flavor and fun, but you may well cease bothering to do a daily Animate Dead routine.

Two more quick notes:

1.) You can animate a horde of skeletons and drop them in a demiplane as a pocket contingency plan/Doomsday Device. I believe you can get about 150 skeletons in the demiplane at 20th level with about two days' of work. That allows you to unleash 150 uncontrolled skeletons' worth of bad news with a single 8th level spell. (I recommend disguising yourself somehow via Disguise Self or Mislead before opening the door.)

2.) You can create wights and Geas them to serve you instead of renewing the Create Undead spell. The 5d10 damage from a geas may or may not be enough to get them to actually obey you, but at least they are charmed and cannot attack you.

* Depending on how you got them in the first place, Dispelling the Planar Binding might also banish them back to their home plane. But if you got them from a True Polymorph, their home plane is right where they are already.


Hope any of these can help you help your player.

[Steampunkette]

Avoid raising a family.




... that's it. That's my advice.

If you raise a given individual a community might not notice. If you raise some bandits no one will care. But when the Hawkins Family of Downtown Bumbletoss all get yanked from their graves it makes a big impact on the community.

Particularly survivors.

[Segev]

Speaking as a necromancer, I just don't get why people can't leave a guy to raise a family in peace.

And they get all offended when I take some commonly-given advice and go out to make new friends.

[Steampunkette]

Speaking as a necromancer, I just don't get why people can't leave a guy to raise a family in peace.

And they get all offended when I take some commonly-given advice and go out to make new friends.

Winner.

Thread over. No more posts.

[Naanomi]

The character is a hobgoblin, so I suspect his minion will be mostly of the ex-goblinoid variety

[Sception]

Does the party include an oathbreaker, or a morally compromised paladin that can be talked into becoming one? Having a high-cha oathbreaker buddy, perhaps dipping a level or two of hexblade to favor cha over strength, is a godsend for any necromancer. The oathbreaker's auras will add their cha to both the saving throws and melee damage rolls of nearby undead, dramatically improving their quality, and significantly shifting the offensive math away from ranged skeletons and towards melee zombies, ghouls, and wights.

A shadow-pocalypse mystic also makes a good friend, mostly for thematic rather than direct mechanical reasons, though they will synergize with any oathbreakers in your party as well as you do.


Otherwise, yeah, the higher level undead are worthwhile, though a backfield of ranged skeletons is always worth keeping around. Undead minions also make good trapfinders and ambush-triggerers, just send them out ahead of the party.

The previously given equipment advice is good, though check with your DM on questions of proficiency.

[Vogonjeltz]

I will point out that finger of death can get you zombies you don't have to keep renewing control over.

This. The other versions carry serious risks if you don't renew on time.

[Naanomi]

This. The other versions carry serious risks if you don't renew on time.
True, but it is a lawful evil hobgoblin; I'm not sure he cares

As for finger of death... good call most likely; just giving up 8 ghouls in the long run to have it 'on holster' through the adventuring day, and it can always be retired once your zombie hoard is sufficient

[Desiani]

Speaking as a necromancer, I just don't get why people can't leave a guy to raise a family in peace.

And they get all offended when I take some commonly-given advice and go out to make new friends.



I'm totally stealing this as a sig :p

[Segev]

I'm totally stealing this as a sig :p

Have at. While I came up with them independently a longish while ago, you can also find a few demotivational posters that use variants on them out there.

[Naanomi]

So...
36 skeletons in Halfplate
-5 with shields and long swords (and javalins)
-5 with pikes (and heavy crossbows)
-16 with 2 X Scimitars (and longbows)

6 ghouls in half plate and shields

2 Wights in full plate with 2 X scimitars (and longbows)

2 Mummies and 1 Mummy Lord in Fullplate and Shield

As many zombies as you have from Finger of Death in Chainmail and shields

1st and 2nd level spells; plus Finger of Death, ready to go

[MaxWilson]

A player is looking to make a necromancer, and dedicate most of their resources into an undead army... spell slots going daily to them, equipping them, etc. I know the risk of bogging down play with this, but I think the group will handle it well overall. But a few questions:

In general, what is the best use of your spell slots? Mass skeletons?

At low levels, mass skeletons are quite effective, with a few armored zombies with greatswords on the front lines. Chain mail for the zombies, scale mail for the skeletons. Equip all of your skeletons with caltrops, longbows (if proficient; otherwise short bows), at least one net, a shield, and two shortswords for dual-wielding. (It almost doubles their damage output; you lose the +2 from Dex, but keep the +3 or +4 from the Necromancer's Undead Thralls.) All of that equipment is relatively cheap by adventurer standards and much of it can often be stripped right off dead orc/hobgoblin bodies--the 5E DMG discourages the DM from paying you any worthwhile money for it so you might as well find a way to make use of it yourself.

You also want someone who can inspire the skeletons via Inspiring Leader. Adding +10-15 temp HP to a 20ish-HP skeleton helps them survive Fireballs and other breath weapon effects, and slows the attrition rate against other enemies, thus allowing you to inflict more damage before the skeletons go down.

If they are smart enough, pre-assign certain skeletons to jobs such as "kill whatever Bob here is trying to kill" or "get between me and anything dangerous and Dodge (to threaten opportunity attacks)" or "Help Bob with attacking whatever he is attacking." The Help action is especially useful if you have armored zombies in armor that the DM rules they aren't proficient in, since that imposes disadvantage. (Of course, there are other ways to negate disadvantage too.)

[Coidzor]

True, but it is a lawful evil hobgoblin; I'm not sure he cares

As for finger of death... good call most likely; just giving up 8 ghouls in the long run to have it 'on holster' through the adventuring day, and it can always be retired once your zombie hoard is sufficient

Non-lethal melee finishers and manacles can help with keeping prisoners on ice until you recycle them into minions, too.

[Nemenia]

Each Wight you dominate can maintain control over 12 zombie/skeletons, allowing you FAR more minions delegated through your other undead than simply summoning the base ones en masse. Likewise, a paralytic ghoul can get alot more mileage out of some encounters than others, such as spellcasters, where the paralysis screws over the wizard that could kill 20 zombies without breaking a sweat. It depends on you, but usually, higher can do more than lower.

[Desamir]

The Healer feat works wonders with groups of minions, especially at lower levels. It synergizes particularly well with Zombies, since they're often left standing at 1 HP thanks to Undead Fortitude. "Necromancer doctor" is a workable fantasy trope, too.

[King539]

Speaking as a necromancer, I just don't get why people can't leave a guy to raise a family in peace.

And they get all offended when I take some commonly-given advice and go out to make new friends.

Jumping on the sig train.

[Slayn82]

On the defense, closed rooms with locked doors are a necromancer best friend. Stockpile undead, release as needed with knock.

On the offense, the nice thing about skeletons is that all those bones weight just around 15% of the body weight. A 200 pound body's skeleton is just 30 pounds of weight. That means you can carry a lot of spare skeletons to animate, or you can put all those animated skeletons encased in boxes, urns, clay vases, or my personal favorite, barrels. Barrels can be rolled down along a corridor, and once something appears, you send a damaging AOE spell to strike it, and also break all those barrels near your target, releasing the uncontroled skeletons, undamaged due to total cover inside the barrel. You can fill the barrels with sand to better protect them from damage if the DM argues. Just consider them as disposable kill drones.

Another good thing about skeletons is that you can use chains on their legs and ropes on their arms to imprision them in long lines, and have them equiped with bows and arrows. An attack bonnus of 4+necromancer proficiency isn't bad, and you can have your controled undead emplace them in a position, before releasing their arms by ordering your minions to cut their ropes. You may then have a wooden panel that blocks their line of vision until the enemy is conveniently on their range, so they start shooting.

[Arenabait]

I'm just going to leave this here...

Max Army Of Darkness (www.enworld.org%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3F462738-Max-Army-of-Darkness-Necromancer-Math&usg=AFQjCNFTdyNkXdgKqI85t0vZMrdvw9zVWQ)

[Vogonjeltz]

True, but it is a lawful evil hobgoblin; I'm not sure he cares

As for finger of death... good call most likely; just giving up 8 ghouls in the long run to have it 'on holster' through the adventuring day, and it can always be retired once your zombie hoard is sufficient

I meant to the Necromancer. ;)