Coercing Unwilling Humanoids with Divine Magic?

[Palanan]

Is there a divine equivalent to Dominate Person, one which would be available to a sixth-level cleric?

I have a cleric who views nonhumans as subhuman, and I’d like a way for him to keep a few nonhuman “volunteers” as servants, in order for him to demonstrate how menial labor is their natural lot in life. They’ll need to be under some form of magical compulsion, but I’m not sure how a cleric would do this.

I’m open to all official 3.5 and Paizo sources, with the only restriction being that this needs to be divine magic available to a sixth-level cleric—no other classes, subsystems, etc. Can this be done?

[Venger]

I'll do you one better. just take dread tyranny. it's an initiate feat which (among other things) adds dominate person to the cleric list.

[BaratheonFury]

The Domination Domain has Dominate Person as it's 4th level spell, along with granting Spell Focus Enchantment to boost the Dc

[Venger]

The Domination Domain has Dominate Person as it's 4th level spell, along with granting Spell Focus Enchantment to boost the Dc

While that's certainly an option if his game's gonna last long enough to get the upper level slots (which are quite good) one advantage dread tyranny has is he can prepare dominate person more than once, since it sounds like he plans to use it a lot.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Venger
just take dread tyranny. it's an initiate feat which (among other things) adds dominate person to the cleric list.

That would be a perfect solution, except it gives Dominate Person as a fifth-level spell, which wouldn’t be available for another three levels.

The cleric is sixth level, so he only has access up to third-level spells. That’s what I have to work with.

[Venger]

That would be a perfect solution, except it gives Dominate Person as a fifth-level spell, which wouldn’t be available for another three levels.

The cleric is sixth level, so he only has access up to third-level spells. That’s what I have to work with.

dominate person is a fifth level spell.

I assumed you meant you wanted access to the spell at 6th level, which dread tyranny does.

but you want access to dominate person as someone without it on his class list 3 levels early?

That is not possible.

the cheapest you can get dominate person as a divine spell is as either a chameleon or archivist using a scroll from a divine bard, who cast it as a 4th. either way, it's not available this early to a cleric

you can also get a no-save dominate monster effect by summoning a gulthir with SM6, but again, that isn't accessible at level 6.

[ATHATH]

Have them assume "forms worthy of their place" by giving them wilding clasps (check to see if they'll work with the next item; I can't remember if they only apply to forms assumed via Wildshape) and custom (cursed, if possible) collars of continuous Aspect of the Wolf made using the rules/guidelines in the MiC. Take the Initiate of Nature feat so that you can rebuke them. You might also want to take the Heretic of the Faith feat, because I'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure that Eldath, Mielikki, and Silvanus would not approve of what you're doing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Venger
I assumed you meant you wanted access to the spell at 6th level, which dread tyranny does.

I’m asking if there’s a divine equivalent to the spell, or something which has the same effect. “Some form of magical compulsion” is what I’m going for.

Dread Tyranny would be great, but as I read it the feat adds Dominate Person to the cleric list as a fifth-level spell. I’m not sure how a sixth-level cleric with this feat could cast a spell he doesn’t have a spell slot for.

So, I’m open to other ideas. Again, it doesn’t have to be Dominate Person in particular, just some way to keep an unwilling nonhuman under the cleric’s control. And again, this is for a sixth-level cleric, so third-level spells are the limit.

[Anthrowhale]

You can create a dominate person effect as a 7th level cleric by taking the "Mother Cyst" feat then using the Necrotic Domination spell from Libris Mortis.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Palanan
…the only restriction being that this needs to be divine magic available to a sixth-level cleric….


Originally Posted by Palanan
The cleric is sixth level, so he only has access up to third-level spells.


Originally Posted by Palanan
And again, this is for a sixth-level cleric, so third-level spells are the limit.

Is there some other way I should phrase this?

:smallannoyed:

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[JNAProductions]

The issue is, you're asking for Dominate Person at 6th level. People don't get that, barring serious cheese.

[Psyren]

Why wouldn't Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm) work?


While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

EDIT: Oh, when you said "6th level" I thought you meant 6th-level spells. Yeah, controlling minds is and should be a bit beyond a level 6 character. Suggestion + domain?

[weckar]

If you're allowed 3rd party material, the Harry Potter d20 has Imperius as a 3rd level spell :smalltongue:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JNAProductions
The issue is, you're asking for Dominate Person at 6th level.

No, I’m asking for a divine option that will allow me to achieve the same general effect:


Originally Posted by The OP
They’ll need to be under some form of magical compulsion, but I’m not sure how a cleric would do this.

“Some form of magical compulsion” is not “Dominate Person and nothing else.”

I’m open to all manner of suggestions, but given that “sixth-level cleric” is in the very first line, that’s an important limiting factor.


Originally Posted by weckar
If you're allowed 3rd party material, the Harry Potter d20 has Imperius as a 3rd level spell

Thank you. Never heard of HPd20, but this sounds worth looking into.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Suggestion + domain?

Could you elaborate? Not sure what this means, but as I said I'm open to suggestions.

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[Psyren]

Archivist + Divine Bard will get Lesser Geas down to a 3rd-level spell. Not sure about getting it onto Cleric from there though.



Could you elaborate? Not sure what this means, but as I said I'm open to suggestions.

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I meant there's probably a domain out there with Suggestion on it. It's not dominate, but with a permissive GM you can get away with a lot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0183.html)

What's the dot for?



Thank you. Never heard of HPd20, but this sounds worth looking into.


Without meaning to sound flippant, if an outlandish source like Harry Potter d20 might pass muster, any reason you can't just homebrew/research something?

[weckar]

Without meaning to sound flippant, if an outlandish source like Harry Potter d20 might pass muster, any reason you can't just homebrew/research something?Yeah in my defense I didn't mean it a serious suggestion, more a last ditch option if all else fails.

[Psyren]

Yeah in my defense I didn't mean it a serious suggestion, more a last ditch option if all else fails.

I knew you were kidding (the tongue being a giveaway :smalltongue:)

[weckar]

It's a bigger joke than you think. Not only are the systems not at all comparable (HPd20 only having 5 spell levels + wandtips (cantrips)), but Imperius is kind of recognised by those who played it as one of the most mis-classified spells in there.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I knew you were kidding….

I didn’t. I don’t know a thing about Harry Potter d20, but I’ve seen the movies and the Imperious curse isn’t far from what I’m looking for.

Also, weckar’s suggestion was the first in the thread that actually fit within the parameters described in the OP. If it was actually a snarky joke, then not so helpful.


Originally Posted by Psyren
…any reason you can't just homebrew/research something?

In fact I’d be glad to homebrew something, although I’d certainly appreciate suggestions on how to go about it.

I’m looking for something which would render humanoids extremely susceptible to commands (essentially Ceti Alpha V Earworms: The Spell) or, to take another tack, something which would prevent them from physically leaving a particular area (sort of like Greater Electronic Fence).

The idea is to keep humanoids on the property by some form of magical reinforcement. If they can put up a happy front, all the better, but compliance and control is the main thing.


Originally Posted by Psyren
What's the dot for?

I used to work in editing and layout, and to my eye the Playground has some really strange formatting quirks. One of those is cramming the “last edited” text up against ordinary text, so I add the period for some whitespace.

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[Ashtagon]

Have you considered using chains, manacles, whips, and goads? Sometimes, mundane works just as well.

And yes, if the imagery evoked by the implements of slavery makes the PC feel uneasy, that's all to the good. If he wants to be a slave-master, rub his nose in what he is.

[Psyren]

I didn’t. I don’t know a thing about Harry Potter d20, but I’ve seen the movies and the Imperious curse isn’t far from what I’m looking for.

Also, weckar’s suggestion was the first in the thread that actually fit within the parameters described in the OP. If it was actually a snarky joke, then not so helpful.

Unfortunately it seems that it was a 3rd-level spell on a 6th-level casting progression, which would probably put it closer to character level 7 or 8 than 6.

Also, I believe that was indeed the joke - Imperius is extremely powerful by D&D standards. It allows one to compel complex behaviors, appears to have no creature type restrictions (even vermin!), has a seemingly infinite duration, can be performed by children, appears to have no saving throw etc. So it is undercosted twice - first being designed for a 6-level magic system, and second being broken as hell.



In fact I’d be glad to homebrew something, although I’d certainly appreciate suggestions on how to go about it.

I’m looking for something which would render humanoids extremely susceptible to commands (essentially Ceti Alpha V Earworms: The Spell) or, to take another tack, something which would prevent them from physically leaving a particular area (sort of like Greater Electronic Fence).

The idea is to keep humanoids on the property by some form of magical reinforcement. If they can put up a happy front, all the better, but compliance and control is the main thing.

Hmm. Maybe a magical variant of Aversion? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/aversion.htm) Then add in Charm. I'm not sure if there's one spell that combines both of these, but you could probably make a case for it being 3rd-level. Maybe increase the casting time to a full round or even a minute, but if the latter, allow it to be disguised in regular conversation with the subject.

[Venger]

suggestion is on the charm, domination, drow, and temptation domains.

[tyckspoon]

I didn’t. I don’t know a thing about Harry Potter d20, but I’ve seen the movies and the Imperious curse isn’t far from what I’m looking for.

Also, weckar’s suggestion was the first in the thread that actually fit within the parameters described in the OP. If it was actually a snarky joke, then not so helpful.



In fact I’d be glad to homebrew something, although I’d certainly appreciate suggestions on how to go about it.

I’m looking for something which would render humanoids extremely susceptible to commands (essentially Ceti Alpha V Earworms: The Spell) or, to take another tack, something which would prevent them from physically leaving a particular area (sort of like Greater Electronic Fence).

The idea is to keep humanoids on the property by some form of magical reinforcement. If they can put up a happy front, all the better, but compliance and control is the main thing.


Imperious is pretty much Dominate Person. As commented, you're not going to get that much below the actual level of Dominate Person. The closest you probably have in your level area is Charm Person; I don't think there is any longer-term or more powerful mind-controlling effect for low levels. Using Suggestion to tell them not to leave an area is the best I can think of, provided the necessary facilities are provided to make that seem reasonable (ie, they don't have to leave to acquire food, sanitary facilities, etc.)

[Calthropstu]

Suggestion is about the best you can get alonv the lines you are looking for at 6th level, and that is VERY temporary.
Full on mundane slavery is likely the best you can do.

[Dagroth]

The effect you're looking for doesn't exist at the level you want it because that would be broken.

[Troacctid]

Charm person is a domain spell for several domains.

[Venger]

Charm person is a domain spell for several domains.

namely charm, fey, lust, renewal, and temptation

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Maybe a magical variant of Aversion? Then add in Charm. I'm not sure if there's one spell that combines both of these, but you could probably make a case for it being 3rd-level. Maybe increase the casting time to a full round or even a minute, but if the latter, allow it to be disguised in regular conversation with the subject.

This looks like a great option. I can see a divine form of Aversion, in this case preventing the subject from approaching a gate or boundary fence around the property, which would have the necessary effect.

As for the Charm aspect, I’m thinking something along these lines: “The subject believes this to be in his best interest, and willingly complies with the restriction.”

A minute’s casting time would work fine, with the verbal component being a short lecture on the importance of remaining on the property, since work gives purpose and dignity, and the subject’s work lies within the boundary.

Would that add up to a third-level spell? Because that would work perfectly with what I have in mind.

[Psyren]

It can't be foolproof; even the most powerful Charm and Domination effects include reasonableness/"obviously harmful" clauses. So edit that in and you'd probably get there.

I'm just guessing though, I'm not particularly adept at homebrew (the folks in that subforum would likely be better at it.)

[Jack_Simth]

Is there a divine equivalent to Dominate Person, one which would be available to a sixth-level cleric?

I have a cleric who views nonhumans as subhuman, and I’d like a way for him to keep a few nonhuman “volunteers” as servants, in order for him to demonstrate how menial labor is their natural lot in life. They’ll need to be under some form of magical compulsion, but I’m not sure how a cleric would do this.

I’m open to all official 3.5 and Paizo sources, with the only restriction being that this needs to be divine magic available to a sixth-level cleric—no other classes, subsystems, etc. Can this be done?
Bestow Curse is Cleric-3. It permits inventing your own curse, so long as it's no more powerful than the things listed. "Extreme pain if the target hasn't obeyed an order from a priest of X in the last Y hours" might fly, depending on the DM.

Charm could potentially work; the Charm domain (Spell Compendium) has both Charm Person and Suggestion. The Domination Domain (also Spell Compendium) has Suggestion (3rd) and Dominate Person (4th, just out of reach).

If you're targeting nonhumans... some domains let you Rebuke specific types/subtypes of creatures. The Elemental domains would let you Command small elementals or Memphits. The Plant domain does plant creatures - and there's templates for that. There's an Eberron domain that lets you do constructs that way, the Skalykind domain lets you do that for reptilian creatures (Kobolds?), and so on.

[Thurbane]

As above, many domains do this:


Charm Person (+ Mass, + Monster): Domains - Bestial, Charm, Elysium, Fey, Lust, Pride, Renewal, Seduction, Temptation, Treachery, Tyranny
Suggestion (+ Mass, + Demand): Domains - Baator, Beguilement, Charm, Diabolic, Domination, Dragon, Drow, Gem Dragon, Nobility, Seduction, Temptation
Dominate Person (+ Monster): Domains - Baator, Domination, Dragon, Passion, Seduction, Temptation, Tyranny

[Ashtagon]

Bestow Curse is Cleric-3. It permits inventing your own curse, so long as it's no more powerful than the things listed. "Extreme pain if the target hasn't obeyed an order from a priest of X in the last Y hours" might fly, depending on the DM.

I wouldn't let that fly. You're essentially simulating a lesser geas spell, but without the limited duration of that higher-level spell.

[Ettina]

Would an item suit you? I know there's stuff in the Book of Vile Darkness that might work. Specifically, a pair of rings:

Master Ring:The wearer of this iron ring, emblazoned with the symbol of a brooding falcon, can deal 3d6 points of damage per round as a free action to anyone wearing a slave ring keyed to it. Furthermore, the wearer can exchange messages with anyone wearing a slave ring (as if using a sending spell) three times per day. Typically, a master ring has ten slave rings keyed to it.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, shriveling, sending; Market Price: 40,600 gp (does not include slave rings; see below).

Slave Ring:This iron ring, once put on, cannot beremoved except by the wearer of the master ring (see above) keyed to it. The wearer is subject to horrible, flesh-disrupting damage by the wearer of the master ring, and she can also exchange messages with him. Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring; Market Price: 500gp.

Or maybe this collar (it says willing, but tricking them counts):

Fanatic’s Collar: When worn by a willing creature, this spiked iron collar allows the wearer to choose another creature to dominate it, as the spell dominate monster.
Caster Level: 17th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, dominate monster; Market Price: 30,000 gp; Weight: 2 lb.

Both are a very high level to craft, and are very expensive to buy (and probably only for sale in unsavoury places), but if your DM is willing to let you have either for backstory reasons, that could be your best bet. Or maybe you could go on a quest to get one of these?