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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other ZEPPELINS! (And rules for them.)



Avianmosquito
2017-03-26, 06:55 PM
So, here's the deal. In Aelsif, the latest and greatest in powered flight is the mighty zeppelin. Flying at anything from 100 feet to 10,000 feet, the zeppelin when ready for battle is nearly impossible to attack from the ground due to sheer altitude. The outer layer is comprised of strong, flexible fabric over a metal mesh. In Aelsif these are military machines, so this fabric is flax-based, soaked in fire-retardant oil and painted with non-flammable paint. The gas bags are filled with hydrogen, but the gas bags are made with elastic fibres that minimize the size of any hole put in them, inconsequential as bullet holes tend to be anyway, and instead of one large bag they are filled with many smaller bags to minimize the effect of losing one. They are driven by propellers, powered by petroleum-based internal combustion engines. The cabin underneath the structure is small compared to the rest of the aircraft, one of the compromises of being made to fly so high, and military ones focus on a high flight ceiling to avoid ground fire so their cabins tend to be smaller than the few luxury liners meandering about at a measly 1,000 feet. Zeppelins can drop bombs, but due to their slow movement speed and high flight this is inaccurate and inefficient, so their primary weapon is a single howitzer.

Now, two things to accomplish here:
1. Writing stats for these beasts.
2. Figuring out a way to kill something that flies so much higher than you can and can tank hits from most weapons.

khadgar567
2017-03-27, 02:12 PM
Your best option is either board it or attack in mass with quick units so howitzer is out of options otherwise nearly nothing excepct dedicated characters can think combatting this thing.
you cant blow up the baloon but damaging propellers gonna cripple it where you can chip it to dead

Avianmosquito
2017-03-27, 05:28 PM
Your best option is either board it or attack in mass with quick units so howitzer is out of options otherwise nearly nothing excepct dedicated characters can think combatting this thing.
you cant blow up the baloon but damaging propellers gonna cripple it where you can chip it to dead

And you are getting to 10,000 feet HOW?

khadgar567
2017-03-28, 12:56 AM
You cant my best build comes to 1400 feet no way i am reaching this flying tatrarasque

Horrid
2017-03-28, 06:02 AM
So Zeppelins are basically like halruaan skyships without the magic involved?

nikkoli
2017-03-28, 12:58 PM
On the flip side of being 10000 ft in the air and being able to avoid all my arrows, how are they going to acureatly fire that howitzer? Unless it has a range increment around 5k ft or more it's going to have trouble returning an attack.

khadgar567
2017-03-28, 01:16 PM
On the flip side of being 10000 ft in the air and being able to avoid all my arrows, how are they going to acureatly fire that howitzer? Unless it has a range increment around 5k ft or more it's going to have trouble returning an attack.
mgh buddy they dont need to target you they just need to drop few payloads to where you roughly are and its done.

nikkoli
2017-03-28, 01:33 PM
Yeah but at that range you still need to get in their general area, and think about the perception check to see the ground from that height. The penalty is what -1 per 10 or 20 ft? So from the side of the ship looking at the ground is A-100 Or -50 to that spot check.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-28, 01:45 PM
mgh buddy they dont need to target you they just need to drop few payloads to where you roughly are and its done.

Exactly. It's an explosive shell and it only needs to land within 20ft to deal damage.


Yeah but at that range you still need to get in their general area, and think about the perception check to see the ground from that height. The penalty is what -1 per 10 or 20 ft? So from the side of the ship looking at the ground is A-100 Or -50 to that spot check.

Nobody ever said artillery was accurate. They'll hit every once in a while with 10d6 points worth of piercing shrapnel. How many of those can you take?

redwizard007
2017-03-29, 09:40 AM
You haven't mentioned a system, setting or tech level. I'm going to assume real world Europe around 1910 give or take a couple years. Much later and fighter planes can get close enough that incindiary rounds (like tracers) would end any threat a Zeppelin could pose.

Right out of the gate, I'm wondering why no one in history put a howitzer on a Zeppelin before you thought of it. It might be that the recoil from the gun destabilizes the airship. It might be because the combustion of the shells being fired is dangerous as hell with hydrogen filled balloons not far away. It could be as simple as figuring that bombs packed more punch per pound than a howitzer and it's shells.

Now, assuming that you have addressed all the above issues, how do I stop your howitzer/Zeppelin combo? Truthfully, it's probably not worth the trouble. You can only do so much damage with this platform and none of it accurately. If, however, pride or political pressure push me to invest in a solution I have a few ideas.

1. Balloons with mines. I'm not talking bouncing Betty's. I'm talking about proximity fused explosives similar to anti ship mines but far smaller. Most likely, I'd tether these on potential approach vectors as preventive measures, but I'd have to leave some concealed at ground level to be released as a nasty surprise. If I can make them magnetic in any way that would be a huge bonus.

2. Hot air balloons with heavy machine guns and incindiary ammunition. Nuff said. The altitudes should be comparable and the weapon system effective. Drawbacks would include lack of steering and short range weaponry.
P.s. hand throwing dynamite from a higher altitude could be fun, if less effective.

3. Working on better engines for interceptors to close the altitude gap. By the end of WWI, the German Zeppelins had to travel at 20,000 feet to escape British fighters.

4. Invest in alternative weapon systems. Early tanks or chemical weapons could tip battles in my favor while you are busy shelling my cities.

Now if this is in a more typical fantasy setting you are hosed on so many other levels. Dragons, magic, elementals... But that howitzer is a lot more effective against static castle walls than anything 20th century.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-29, 11:31 AM
You haven't mentioned a system,

The thread prefix didn't tell you that?


setting or tech level.

That's because the answer to that is a bit complicated. Aelsif's tech level is mid 19th century in most of the wealthy nations, and less than that in the poor and isolated primitive nations. The gnomes, living in their (extraordinary well fortified) mountain nation, are considerably more advanced (late 19th, still) but the local geography poses some issues they've yet to overcome (so there's no heavier than air vehicles yet, because the gnomes don't have much space to make good test flights). They are politically neutral and that neutrality is enforced through sheer defensive military strength, Swiss-style, and as the most advanced nation on Aelsif they keep their best stuff to themselves. The gnomes manufacture zeppelins and sell them to other nations, but they're about the only nation in the world that can reliably shoot them down, due to a combination of altitude and better artillery.


I'm going to assume real world Europe around 1910 give or take a couple years. Much later and fighter planes can get close enough that incindiary rounds (like tracers) would end any threat a Zeppelin could pose.

No fighter planes yet.


Right out of the gate, I'm wondering why no one in history put a howitzer on a Zeppelin before you thought of it. It might be that the recoil from the gun destabilizes the airship. It might be because the combustion of the shells being fired is dangerous as hell with hydrogen filled balloons not far away. It could be as simple as figuring that bombs packed more punch per pound than a howitzer and it's shells.

The answer to this is "They did.". It wasn't very common, but there weren't any problems with it. Most of the reason it wasn't so common is real-world zeppelins didn't put this heavy of a focus on flying so high. Bombing cannot be done with significant precision from a zeppelin at 10,000 feet, most of the munitions will miss the target and those that don't are even harder to get where you need them. A howitzer solves this problem, making the zeppelin better on the battlefield and less effective for bombing cities.


Now, assuming that you have addressed all the above issues, how do I stop your howitzer/Zeppelin combo? Truthfully, it's probably not worth the trouble. You can only do so much damage with this platform and none of it accurately. If, however, pride or political pressure push me to invest in a solution I have a few ideas.

While a single zeppelin with a howitzer can't do much to a city, to a forward command post it is devastating. A howitzer from 10,000 feet can't hit an individual person, but if you don't think they can hit your command tent you're fooling yourself. They can also easily destroy munitions and fuel depots, barracks and literally anything else that can be destroyed by a howitzer, far more accurately than a howitzer miles away laterally that can't see the target.


1. Balloons with mines. I'm not talking bouncing Betty's. I'm talking about proximity fused explosives similar to anti ship mines but far smaller. Most likely, I'd tether these on potential approach vectors as preventive measures, but I'd have to leave some concealed at ground level to be released as a nasty surprise. If I can make them magnetic in any way that would be a huge bonus.

Proximity fuses weren't invented until the early '40s.


2. Hot air balloons with heavy machine guns and incindiary ammunition. Nuff said. The altitudes should be comparable and the weapon system effective. Drawbacks would include lack of steering and short range weaponry.
P.s. hand throwing dynamite from a higher altitude could be fun, if less effective.

They aren't without point defences, tracers weren't developed until 1915 and that's when incendiaries started to be used as well.


3. Working on better engines for interceptors to close the altitude gap. By the end of WWI, the German Zeppelins had to travel at 20,000 feet to escape British fighters.

This is going to take a while. Think "decades".


4. Invest in alternative weapon systems. Early tanks or chemical weapons could tip battles in my favor while you are busy shelling my cities.

No tanks yet either, the automobile exists but very few are in production, and until that advances somewhat tanks won't be an option.


Now if this is in a more typical fantasy setting you are hosed on so many other levels. Dragons, magic, elementals... But that howitzer is a lot more effective against static castle walls than anything 20th century.

All of those have a lower flight ceiling than a zeppelin. (Aelsif flight ceilings are 10x fly speed unless otherwise noted. Lighter than air vehicles always have a listed flight ceiling much higher than that.) There's also a matter of speed. A zeppelin might not look fast and it's certainly a very cumbersome flyer, but zeppelins are not slow and can outrun anybody relying on a "fly" or "overland flight" spell very easily even if it was at low enough altitude for them to reach for some reason.

redwizard007
2017-03-29, 12:27 PM
The thread prefix didn't tell you that?



That's because the answer to that is a bit complicated. Aelsif's tech level is mid 19th century in most of the wealthy nations, and less than that in the poor and isolated primitive nations. The gnomes, living in their (extraordinary well fortified) mountain nation, are considerably more advanced (late 19th, still) but the local geography poses some issues they've yet to overcome (so there's no heavier than air vehicles yet, because the gnomes don't have much space to make good test flights). They are politically neutral and that neutrality is enforced through sheer defensive military strength, Swiss-style, and as the most advanced nation on Aelsif they keep their best stuff to themselves. The gnomes manufacture zeppelins and sell them to other nations, but they're about the only nation in the world that can reliably shoot them down, due to a combination of altitude and better artillery.



No fighter planes yet.



The answer to this is "They did.". It wasn't very common, but there weren't any problems with it. Most of the reason it wasn't so common is real-world zeppelins didn't put this heavy of a focus on flying so high. Bombing cannot be done with significant precision from a zeppelin at 10,000 feet, most of the munitions will miss the target and those that don't are even harder to get where you need them. A howitzer solves this problem, making the zeppelin better on the battlefield and less effective for bombing cities.



While a single zeppelin with a howitzer can't do much to a city, to a forward command post it is devastating. A howitzer from 10,000 feet can't hit an individual person, but if you don't think they can hit your command tent you're fooling yourself. They can also easily destroy munitions and fuel depots, barracks and literally anything else that can be destroyed by a howitzer, far more accurately than a howitzer miles away laterally that can't see the target.



Proximity fuses weren't invented until the early '40s.



They aren't without point defences, tracers weren't developed until 1915 and that's when incendiaries started to be used as well.



This is going to take a while. Think "decades".



No tanks yet either, the automobile exists but very few are in production, and until that advances somewhat tanks won't be an option.



All of those have a lower flight ceiling than a zeppelin. (Aelsif flight ceilings are 10x fly speed unless otherwise noted. Lighter than air vehicles always have a listed flight ceiling much higher than that.) There's also a matter of speed. A zeppelin might not look fast and it's certainly a very cumbersome flyer, but zeppelins are not slow and can outrun anybody relying on a "fly" or "overland flight" spell very easily even if it was at low enough altitude for them to reach for some reason.

So this essentially comes down to "I'm doing this and there's no way to stop it because I've only allowed tech to advance sufficiently in a few specific instances that support what I want to do and not in any way to allow any counters."

What exactly are you looking for in the way of counters, other than "because magic?"

Avianmosquito
2017-03-29, 12:53 PM
So this essentially comes down to "I'm doing this and there's no way to stop it because I've only allowed tech to advance sufficiently in a few specific instances that support what I want to do and not in any way to allow any counters."

What exactly are you looking for in the way of counters, other than "because magic?"

"My ideas didn't work! Clearly that means I'm being railroaded, because my ideas can't possibly just be bad!"

Yeah, this is why I don't to PbP here.

nikkoli
2017-03-29, 02:03 PM
"My ideas didn't work! Clearly that means I'm being railroaded, because my ideas can't possibly just be bad!"

Yeah, this is why I don't to PbP here.

I'm kinda in the same boat as redwizard007, in that you have this thing that says "basic stuff doesnt hurt it, and its so far out of range you cant attack it, Now go destroy it?" Then people are coming trying to get a beter view of how these work so we could attempt to counter it, but we dont really have that so everyone spitballing ends up outside of what you want.

Edit: i was thinking earlier, you could fill the sky with billions of immovable rods and these things couldn't get to you.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-29, 02:17 PM
I'm kinda in the same boat as redwizard007, in that you have this thing that says "basic stuff doesnt hurt it, and its so far out of range you cant attack it, Now go destroy it?" Then people are coming trying to get a beter view of how these work so we could attempt to counter it, but we dont really have that so everyone spitballing ends up outside of what you want.

Spitballing is fine. Spitballing and expecting a high success rate is not. Armed balloons wasn't that bad of an idea, though it's not far from "another zeppelin", and that's the only functional one there. That's a pretty ordinary success rate, and he threw a fit over it.

Here's an idea, though: Teleport ruins everything. Not onto the top of it, the wind would blow you right off. Teleport into the cabin. Getting eyes-on may take some doing, but you can do it. The problem is this requires a level 9 arcane caster, and teleport is a game breaker in all cases, so perhaps something lower level that might not be erased out of frustration with its game-breaking effects is in order.

nikkoli
2017-03-29, 04:37 PM
You woyld need greater teleport to get on it safely and 100% accuracy, regular teleport has some miss chance, because I doubt whoever is going to attack these is going to be very familiar with that one specific zeppelin, and there's still the off chance of being in a completely different zeppelin.

I'm also partial to billions of pointed immovable rods filling the skys around your cities that are the enemies of the zeppelin people.

Avianmosquito
2017-03-29, 07:18 PM
You woyld need greater teleport to get on it safely and 100% accuracy, regular teleport has some miss chance, because I doubt whoever is going to attack these is going to be very familiar with that one specific zeppelin, and there's still the off chance of being in a completely different zeppelin.

Scry and fry?


I'm also partial to billions of pointed immovable rods filling the skys around your cities that are the enemies of the zeppelin people.

Oh, right. Sorry I missed that earlier. Well, that's a bit... Expensive, innit?

nikkoli
2017-03-29, 10:49 PM
Scry is an option, but the bonuses to their saves they would be large enough to make it fairly unreliable, I think the dc goes down for trying to scry Joe Smo you've never met. Edit +10 to their saves for someone you've never met or heard of.

Absurdly expensive, but achievable.