Using Embrace the Dark Chaos Offensively?

[Kaiwen]

I was reading through the description of Embrace the Dark Chaos (Fiendish Codex I), and I'm wondering if you could use this offensively. You could replace a vital feat (say, Shock Trooper on a Fighter, or Iron Will on an Incantatrix) with something useless, like Demonic Skin.

I'm sure that, if this were a good idea, the optimization community would have already explored it. But, I haven't found any mention of it. Is there any reason why you wouldn't?

[Necroticplague]

I'm sure that, if this were a good idea, the optimization community would have already explored it. But, I haven't found any mention of it. Is there any reason why you wouldn't?

Yeah, there's two minor reasons:


Embrace the Dark Chaos
(Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss)

Transmutation [Chaotic]
Level: Cleric 8, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, XP,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
........

XP Cost: 250 XP.

Note the bolded. The first makes this impossible, the second makes you not want to cast it unless you get a very permanent benefit.

[Crake]

Yeah, there's two minor reasons:

Note the bolded. The first makes this impossible, the second makes you not want to cast it unless you get a very permanent benefit.

Get them unconscious first :smalltongue:

[Celestia]

Get them unconscious first :smalltongue:
If they're already unconscious then they're no longer a threat, though.

[Bronk]

It seems like that trick would be super effective against paladins though... picking the right feats - abyssal heritor fears say - would force them to fall.

[Inevitability]

It seems like that trick would be super effective against paladins though... picking the right feats - abyssal heritor fears say - would force them to fall.

Abyssal Heritor feats are Chaotic, not Evil, so paladins wouldn't automatically fall from having them.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You don't automatically know the effects of a spell you're willingly receiving, do you? So you could try to trick a VIP into thinking you're casting a beneficial spell. Still not very efficient, but it would be hilarious if you could pull it off.

[Cruiser1]

Get them unconscious first :smalltongue:
Still doesn't work. Unconscious targets automatically fail saving throws, however that doesn't make them willing. Embrace the Dark Chaos has no saving throw, but can't target someone in the first place unless they're willing.

[Inevitability]

Still doesn't work. Unconscious targets automatically fail saving throws, however that doesn't make them willing. Embrace the Dark Chaos has no saving throw, but can't target someone in the first place unless they're willing.

Well, actually...


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

[khadgar567]

Nasty nasty parnk in wrong peoples hand oh hi mr wizard let me remove all your metamagic feats and give you toughness instead muhahahaha( needs will save to not make evil laughter)

[Hamste]

Abyssal Heritor feats are Chaotic, not Evil, so paladins wouldn't automatically fall from having them.

Actually they do fall if I remember correctly, abyssal heritor feats make you chaotic if you have more than two of them. A paladin who ceases to be LG becomes an ex-paladin.

[Necroticplague]

Actually they do fall if I remember correctly, abyssal heritor feats make you chaotic if you have more than two of them. A paladin who ceases to be LG becomes an ex-paladin.

Unless they have the Ordered Chaos feat.

[Celestia]

Unless they have the Ordered Chaos feat.
That's why it's the first feat on the chopping block.

[Hamste]

Rereading dark chaos this is all moot as the subject gets to choose the feat replaced. You can only ever replace one of their feats even if you cast it on them while they are asleep (they would just choose to replace the feat you gave them last with the feat you just gave them).

[Psyren]

Still doesn't work. Unconscious targets automatically fail saving throws, however that doesn't make them willing. Embrace the Dark Chaos has no saving throw, but can't target someone in the first place unless they're willing.

You have that backwards - unconscious targets are considered willing (see Inevitability's quote), but even an unconscious target can get a saving throw (see for example Nightmare.) The interaction just doesn't come up usually because Wiling spells tend not to have a saving throw at all.