Question: sun soul monk

[Desteplo]

Is it good? I'm wondering whether I should use that as a base for a home brew way of 4 element monk. Or if it's a solid subclass and I should look elsewhere.

Edit: my attempt. Think I went to far. Trying to scale down
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519347-Combining-street-fighter-dbz-avatar-was-a-rough-but-cool-concept&p=21845549#post21845549

[Foxhound438]

>is it good?

it's fine in the sense that you don't have to take mobile thanks to the L3 feature, so if you're looking at theoretical optimization it kind of buys you a feat, probably would take lucky personally. The L6 feature is meh, it has good action economy for the damage but unfortunately the resource cost is too much to make it valuable all the time. L11 feature is super (sayan) cool but not really OP, and the capstone can put in a comparable amount of work to shadow monk's opportunist.

B+ as far as monk schools go (open palm being B, shadow being A, long death being C for the most part, and 4e being D-)*

>using it as a basis for a 4e rework

A lot of people have already done this, but I feel that there are better ways of making the 4e. Namely, it should be more like a 1/3 caster and it should have comparable numbers of options, like this one (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view).

*my personal opinion, calm down

[DracoKnight]

Foxhound's assessment is fairly accurate, I've DM'd for one, and yeah. The only thing is the player of a Sun Soul will still want Mobile for when they want to run in and Stunning Strike, in case the monster succeeds on its save.

[RickAllison]

It is an... interesting subclass with a few problems and some cool bonuses. A notable flaw is that by RAW, you lose out on your bonus action at-will attack. You still get the Flurry of Blows, but since you aren't making attacks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, you either have just the two from your Attack action or you have four.

I am agreed with Foxhound on the Burning Hands, but I appreciate it for being a nova option. If you really want to take something(s, hopefully plural...) without regard for resources, this is one way to do so. It is certainly better than nothing, but losing the at-will bonus action attack (if you go ranged) does hurt.

Searing Sunburst is very unique, actually. Barring a Hunter Ranger picking up a bow or quiver with unlimited arrows, this is the only at-will AoE damage option for PCs. This is rather remarkable as it makes a Sun Soul Monk a terrifying artillery engine on a battlefield as they are effectively lobbing a grenade up to 50 yards every six seconds, all day, and they can keep going until they literally drop from exhaustion. At least until the target gets covered in opaque material. Which is harder than tossing up a blanket, but not good for sieges. Great for foiling castle defenses, though, as those arrow ports suddenly become conspicuous targets and the only option to block yourself from damage is to render them unusable. Less useful for adventuring, but the Sun Soul will appreciate being able to dash in and out of the range of most weapons (and inflicting disadvantage on the rest) with a decent damage option. Great for when they are heavily damaged and out of ki.

[Desteplo]

>is it good?

it's fine in the sense that you don't have to take mobile thanks to the L3 feature, so if you're looking at theoretical optimization it kind of buys you a feat, probably would take lucky personally. The L6 feature is meh, it has good action economy for the damage but unfortunately the resource cost is too much to make it valuable all the time. L11 feature is super (sayan) cool but not really OP, and the capstone can put in a comparable amount of work to shadow monk's opportunist.

B+ as far as monk schools go (open palm being B, shadow being A, long death being C for the most part, and 4e being D-)*

>using it as a basis for a 4e rework

A lot of people have already done this, but I feel that there are better ways of making the 4e. Namely, it should be more like a 1/3 caster and it should have comparable numbers of options, like this one (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view).

*my personal opinion, calm down

You think it should use ki for spells if 1/3 caster? Or be a caster on top of ki

[Desteplo]

I saw that and the other homebrew that guy did. But I wanted something a little bit easier. Sun soul looked pretty good for a fire 4e (if doing the barbarian style path) with branching paths to allow for a (wind) and a (fire) style or mix

[ad_hoc]

It's fine. It works as a fix to 4 Elements.

I would say in order they go:

Shadow
Open Palm
Long Death
Sun Soul

Then 4 Elements is terrible.

(Also, Mobile, while being a decent feat in general, is terrible for Monks.)

[Desteplo]

So no matter what I try it's going to be hard to "mess up" a homebrew

Any indication that they'll give 4e the ranger treatment?

[Foxhound438]

You think it should use ki for spells if 1/3 caster? Or be a caster on top of ki

if appropriately costed, ki for spells is fine in my opinion. It's been discussed in depth on threads in the past, but basically for me it boils down to monks getting enough ki to do basically whatever they want over the course of a fight short of constantly flurry+stunning strike 4 times every round. If it costs some of that aspect to cast spells when necessary, that's fine by me, because unlike the fighter, you have a pool of points with which you can already use in a variety of ways, while the fighter has separate resources for everything even in the base class. Not to mention that having it cost ki makes your "spell slots", if that's what you chose to do exclusively, return on short rests.

Anyways, TLDR ki for spells is fine by me.

[djreynolds]

Mobile has its uses. It saves you from spending KI points and a bonus action on disengaging with step of the wind or spending KI and a BA on patient defense and the dodge action.

If you are fighting a lone opponent, you can attack and use you bonus action for another attack and a KI point for FOB, and now move away.

Versus a group of enemies, you may have to use step of the wind and your bonus action to disengage from the group

So mobile can save on KI points and the bonus action it costs to use patient defense/step of the wind, but at the cost of dex and wis increases and only versus lone opponents

But with taking mobile your wisdom DC is lower for stunning fist as is your AC by a point, or your attack and AC with increasing dex.

[rollingForInit]

B+ as far as monk schools go (open palm being B, shadow being A, long death being C for the most part, and 4e being D-)*


With the risk of going a bit off topic, why would you say that Shadow is better than Open Palm? Personally I'd rather play a Shadow for flavour reasons, but it feels like Open Palm has stronger mechanical options from the start. Also the five point palm exploding heart technique. Was under the impression that people thought Open Palm was just better, mechanically.

[RickAllison]

With the risk of going a bit off topic, why would you say that Shadow is better than Open Palm? Personally I'd rather play a Shadow for flavour reasons, but it feels like Open Palm has stronger mechanical options from the start. Also the five point palm exploding heart technique. Was under the impression that people thought Open Palm was just better, mechanically.

In terms of greater combat power at being a monk, Open Hand probably wins (though not because of Quivering Palm, as that one is too far away to really merit consideration). But there is the problem, Open Hand really only lets you be better at what a monk already does (basically getting to add Shove mechanics onto Flurry of Blows), a 1/day self-heal (really nice, but straightforward), and starting the day with an effect that actively discourages you from using your primary abilities. Open Hand is a great monk, but it is just better at being a regular monk.

Shadow gets an edge because while it is not as good of a base monk as OH, it trades that for a swath of utility and non-standard combat options, a new movement option that synergizes without being redundant, and a nice invisibility effect which is great for utility and has potential for combat. Shadow may not be as good of a monk as OH, but it is a far superior adventurer because its abilities both augment and transcend just being a monk.

[djreynolds]

Just the shadow monks shadow step is awesome, as it requires no Ki points. So whenever you fight somewhere in dim light or worse, your set

The sun soul monk really does sounds cool, I mean it is radiant and you never run out and it scales and for 1 more KI you get 2 more.

Question, does it have disadvantage in melee?

The monk itself is very cool, my kid is running 4element (why I do not know) but its not terrible as the monk is good

My only problem with the monk is so much is Keyed of the KI and bonus action, that's the killer is losing out on the bonus action

[Foxhound438]

In terms of greater combat power at being a monk, Open Hand probably wins (though not because of Quivering Palm, as that one is too far away to really merit consideration). But there is the problem, Open Hand really only lets you be better at what a monk already does (basically getting to add Shove mechanics onto Flurry of Blows), a 1/day self-heal (really nice, but straightforward), and starting the day with an effect that actively discourages you from using your primary abilities. Open Hand is a great monk, but it is just better at being a regular monk.

Shadow gets an edge because while it is not as good of a base monk as OH, it trades that for a swath of utility and non-standard combat options, a new movement option that synergizes without being redundant, and a nice invisibility effect which is great for utility and has potential for combat. Shadow may not be as good of a monk as OH, but it is a far superior adventurer because its abilities both augment and transcend just being a monk.

pretty much this. it's a relatively marginal loss in the power of your flurry in exchange for a lot of stuff that makes you better at filling the "scout/controller" role right off. L6 and 11 abilities are also a lot better- the heal for open palm is nice, but since it takes your turn it's really hard to justify using it, and the sanctuary is pretty much a flavor ribbon.