Warblade DPR?

[Rerednaw]

I hear warblades are the DPR class...I was trying a few builds around 9th level and....I am running into a wall so I figured I'd ask the optimizing experts here :)

With some Strongarm Bracers, Str belt, some kind of Enlarge and level ups to Str he's seems okay...however it doesn't quite break into high damage territory.

9th level
standard wbl
Assume elite array.
feats: WF, WS, Power Attack, Imp Crit, Adaptive Style, ?
15 Str base +2 enlarge +2 belt +2 level ups = 21
+2 Weapon (greatsword, L upsized to H)
Atk: +9+5(str)+1(wf)-1(size)+2 enh
= +16/+11 melee AC
damage
4d6 (huge greatsword)
+7 Str x 1.5
+2 enh
+2 spec
= 4d6+11

I thought this was okay...until I started reading average monster stats and so forth. This kind of DPR seems a bit low.

With maneuvers, we can try some tricks with Emerald Razor to target touch AC...but now you have 2 checks to make, you don't get an interative, and maxed out it's +7 vs touch AC 4d6+29. Better but this still seems a bit behind the curve. Ruby Nightmare Blade may double damage 4d6+11 x 2...average 66 but again no interative and you have to make 2 checks to hit.

Assuming his 5th level maneuver goes into Pounce.
Typical loadout (readied maneuvers)
DM-Moment of Perfect Mind
DM-Emerald Razor or Ruby Nightmare
IH-Iron Heart Surge or Lightning Recovery
TC-Pouncing Charge

So suggestions or is this considered decent at this level range for say a standard adventure?

I suppose there's able learner and knowledge devotion for another +1 to +5. Or Lightning Mace TC cheese (need flaws to get enough feats). What else may be done while sticking with pure warblade (no dips or cross class)?

I am not asking for Insp Boost + Dragonfire Inspiration + Word of Creation Hank's Bow Bard or Druid WS + AC Fleshraker Venomfire...though if there a warblade way to get closer I won't fuss... :). Since the game we are in has a ton of EL+5 in it and we typically are undergeared (i.e. don't expect gear to get better after start).

Thanks!

[John Longarrow]

+2 weapon isn't as good a +1 weapon with 1d6 energy. This is especially true when you toss a 3,000gp energy crystal on for an extra d6. This isn't a warblade-specific comment but a general one for adding a fair amount of damage for about the same price.

Two of the maneuvers that should be on your list are
White Raven Tactics (White Raven - 3rd level)
Elder Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon - 5)

White Raven Tactics lets another character go again in the same round. Very useful and VERY POWERFUL.
Elder Mountain Hammer adds some damage (avg 21 points) but IGNORES DR/Hardness. This maneuver lets a warblade pound on an iron golem.

Raw damage isn't the biggest part of what an initiator can do. Is all the goodies that go along that really help them out.

[Venger]

in terms of numbers, your dpr is actually pretty good.

the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction) is a good place to get acquainted with the basics.

don't bother taking any mountain hammers past the first. it already lets you bypass dr/hardness, the others slightly increased damage is not worth taking a bunch of other stone dragon maneuvers, because the school is terrible.

[Big Fau]

The higher end of the Warblade's DPR involves combing Stormguard Warrior, Avalanche of Blades, Karmic Strike, and Robilar's Gambit to set up a lethal Time Stands Still combo in the next round. But we're talking damage in the hundreds, and at the higher levels only. As far as your build goes, you've burned 3 feats on Improved Crit, WF, and WS. There are other options that are more helpful for your damage output, but your maneuvers can make up for some of those. The main this is you want Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip/Bull Rush (if you want to take a 4-level dip into Fighter for Dungeoncrasher), and Karmic Strike. Improved Critical is about as bottom of the barrel as it gets.

Able Learner+Knowledge Devotion is slow and, in the long-run, pricy as you need items to shore up your Knowledge checks. Educated is a better option, but Skill Points can run short. As for your weapon, the main source of damage you'll want is from having a +1/+9 weapon (+9 special abilities, +1 Attack). The Martial Discipline enhancement is worth a +1/+2, depending on your maneuvers, but unless you're using a Boost-focused build it isn't worth more than the +2. There's an enhancement in the MIC that gives a flat +5 Force damage, but it's a +2. And Weapon Augment Crystals, mentioned earlier, are universally helpful.

Your maneuvers, well, could use a little more focus. Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are golden for damage (one for the Concentration maneuvers, the other for TWFing), Stone Dragon is only useful for a stance and maybe a mid-range Mountain Hammer every once in a while (the 9th is good though, but not worth as much as TSS). Iron Heart lacks strong ones, but has support maneuvers like Mithral Tornado or Lightning Throw. If your party is melee-oriented have a look at White Raven's buff maneuvers; you may not do amazing damage, but helping your party be consistent is important (especially since you've got EL+5, who may not be able to hit the broad side of a Tarrasque while it's asleep).

Finally, PrCs are worth looking into. Eternal Blade is amazing, Bloodstorm Blade is pretty good on the right build, Deepstone Sentinel is a decent (if inferior by proximity) option, and Bloodclaw Master can give you a good chunk of bonuses if you play a Shifter (or even if you don't, although it nearly sets up for Weretouched Master).

[Gruftzwerg]

edit: sry missed the no dip and cross class part -.-

If you really wanna focus on DPR you should put your focus fully on charge/pounce and it's multipliers.

I would suggest to dip Barb 1 with ACF Pounce to have it every turn ready.
If you intend to charge every round, you need Drunken Master 2 for the Stagger ability (charge with direction change as much as you want: e.g. run 2 squares back and 2 forward to attack the same target again with pounce). If you go DM 2 for Stagger, you can start to think about an unarmed (gish?) build (see my Almighty Claw of Malar build).

Note that there are 2 kind of multipliers for charge. Those only boosting the PA values (Leap Attack, Combat Brute..) and the others (Dive if you can fly, spirited charge with mount, valorous weapon enchantment, Sandals of the Tiger Leap for unarmed..) multiplying the entire (multiply-able) damage (the same rules as for crit: no additional dice multiplied).

Depending on what you focus, the build may change. Imho if you wanna have good DPR, you need to pounce every turn and in any situation (space).

[Firechanter]

#1 Warblades are not _the_ DPR class. They won't get as high as a Pouncebarian. Their advantage is that they can do _good_ DPR and they get the job done, because they aren't stopped by the first Hold Person that is thrown at them.

#2 No need to multiclass. At level 9 you can get Pounce in class. There's a maneuver for that. Combine with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack instead of that WF/WS nonsense. Level 10, add Dancing Mongoose.

Even a low-op Warblade without ubercharging can get some decent damage from maneuvers. Here we're talking more about in the 50s rather than hundreds, but it's enough for level-appropriate challenges. My favourite one in a low-op game was Death From Above.

[Telok]

There are a number of ways to build a warblade.

Dip psychic warrior and you can build a character who swaps between Deep Impact and Emerald Razor every round for PA goodness. Build yourself an ubercharger with White Raven (+damage, no AoO) and Tiger Claw (pounce, jump). Go crit fishing with a high AC dex build that loves Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike. Duplicate feats like TWF, Whirlwind Attack, and Improved Disarm without spending any feats on them through Iron Heart.

But yeah, most of the Stone Dragon stuff is pretty weak.

[Venger]

There are a number of ways to build a warblade.

Dip psychic warrior and you can build a character who swaps between Deep Impact and Emerald Razor every round for PA goodness. Build yourself an ubercharger with White Raven (+damage, no AoO) and Tiger Claw (pounce, jump). Go crit fishing with a high AC dex build that loves Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike. Duplicate feats like TWF, Whirlwind Attack, and Improved Disarm without spending any feats on them through Iron Heart.

But yeah, most of the Stone Dragon stuff is pretty weak.

dipping psywar is rough on a warblade since it ropes in one of the few abilties you don't need, and I definitely wouldn't advise it since op is trying to play under an elite array.

aside from stone dragon being a terrible school on its own merits by the effects not being good, the secret drawback a lot of people miss is it doesn't work when you're flying, which at mid levels is vital.

[Firechanter]

FWIW, if I were limited to "Elite" array, and absolutely wanted to play in that game, I'd still find it pointless to bother with anything but a Full Caster.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical are not optimal feats. No class is going to have good DPR if those are your only feats.

You can go for the classic Leap Attack + Shock Trooper combo, which sets you up for charging. You'd be looking at 4d6+38 per hit on a charge, an average of 52.
You can go for TWF, IUS, and Snap Kick, which sets you up for making many attacks, and gets you a bonus attack on standard-action maneuvers, from Snap Kick.
You can go for Stormguard Warrior + Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes. This is a build that lets you 'charge up' from AoOs and touch attacks. Very nice when combined with Diamond Mind and Power Attack.

[rrwoods]

I'll echo the fact that your damage is fine by just focusing on damaging strikes. War blades are good DPR characters not because their DPR is higher, but because (1) the level of investment required to get the damage to reasonable levels is small compared to other classes, and (2) there are things within the class's available resources to direct that regained investment into (like WR Tactics and IH Surge).

Pick your +xd6 maneuvers of choice and spend your feats on either synergies or defenses.

[Fouredged Sword]

Peak warblade theoretical DPR depends on how many rounds you measure. At some point you need to referesh maneuvers and that means no maneuvers for a round. The best single round damage you are likely to find will be with the "concentration check as damage" maneuvers. You can abuse skill buffs to really crank up concentration checks to the point of silliness. It works best with a friendly cleric who can slap a guidance of the avatar on you at the start of combat, but you can get a +concentration item and max ranks and all the other skill system abuse to crank your damage though the roof.

[Firechanter]

As a Charger, you'd certainly want a Valorous weapon, to crank your dmg beyond 100.

[Firechanter]

New post because this is going to be more elaborate.

First off, correction to what I said above: in the aforementioned Low-Op game, where I played a Warblade but wasn't allowed to go either Charger or Mage Slayer, my most-used offensive maneuver was Soaring Raptor Strike. (All serious opponents in that campaign tended to be Large or bigger). It's only 3rd level, but grants a whopping +4 to Hit, +6d6 damage vs larger opponents, if you make a Jump check that should really be trivial.


If you want to go Charger, you should have the following feats:
Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.
Stance: Leading the Charge
Skill Trick: Nimble Charge
Maneuvers: Pouncing Charge. You'll also want Dancing Mongoose at level 10.
Weapon: Huge +1 Valorous (Greatsword or whatever)

Attack: +9 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Weapon = +15/+10
Damage (Shock trooper): [4d6 +7 +1 +36 (Leap PA) +9 (Stance)] x2 (Valorous) = 122 per Hit
Expected vs AC 22: 140
This should be enough to oneshot _most_ enemies up to your CR, or at least - if looking for instance at the Frost Giant - leave them in the single digits so hopefully _someone_ of your buddies will pick them off.

At level 10, if you invest your additional wealth into a Discipline property for your weapon, this will go up considerably to:
Attack (with Dancing Mongoose) +19/+19/+11
Damage identical
vs AC23 expected: 280.6

I can't stress this stongly enough. A single level opens up so much synergy you literally-literally double your damage output. Now you will reliably oneshot _anything_ up to your CR - or even two Fire Giants at once - and punch those monsters into the middle of next week. And that is before buffs. Caution: your DM may be having kittens.

A charger build generally has three drawbacks:
1. you are a one-trick pony.
2. Shock Trooper will probably reduce your AC to or near single-digits
3. you need to be _able_ to charge in the first place.

Being a Warblade, rather than a Pouncebarian, helps you _a bit_ with each of these problems. You have a number of maneuvers so you can make sure you'll contribute even when you can't charge. Number two, your Counters can at least help you negate one counterattack (via Wall of Blades) that would normally be guaranteed to hit you. And number three, your improved mobility generally makes it a bit easier to set up a charge. Like, being able to take a "running" jump without running at all should help with difficult terrain.

_However_, all that doesn't help if the environment is simply too cramped and crowded for charging. For instance, when we played Red Hand of Doom (where I played the aforementioned Low-Op Warblade), I mentally compared "If I were a Charger..." in every battle, and discovered that in most serious encounters, I simply wouldn't have been _able_ to charge. So that build would have been a total waste. And my low-op build focussing on stuff like Soaring Raptor and moved about with Shadow Stride actually performed quite nicely, even if he only did a fraction of the damage.

[Rerednaw]

Thanks all for the info.

Firechanter especially.

I have nothing against charger builds but IME even with swift teleports I rarely am in a situation where charging is consistently allowed. I thought about the TC Pounce maneuver as a 'cover your bases' idea. But really I prefer steady consistent damage. I know WF and WS may not be optimal, but it opens up Mastery and the bonuses always work. However I will definitely check it out.

So I will redo the build and try again.

FYI our last encounter when we were 8th level was 6 double advanced cloakers (over 100 hp each) with house rules that their naseua effect meant NO actions. Plus they CDG anyone they could reach that was helpless. They all ambushed by surprise and everyone was grappled (we only had 30 spot and for some reason Scent did not work) before we got to start. I have a druid whose Animal Comp got CDG because I was saving another PC. We still lost our other caster though (elf wizard) to another CDG. We have another fight coming with the PC survivors are about half health. So I figure having a backup would be a good idea. ;)

Will keep at it, thanks folks!

[Firechanter]

You're welcome, glad if I could be of assistance.

Aside:


FYI our last encounter when we were 8th level was 6 double advanced cloakers (over 100 hp each) with house rules that their naseua effect meant NO actions. Plus they CDG anyone they could reach that was helpless. They all ambushed by surprise and everyone was grappled (we only had 30 spot and for some reason Scent did not work) before we got to start.

That sounds like some BS shenanigans your DM pulled off there. Even 6 regular Cloakers would already have been an EL10 or so. Double-advanced means they were Huge? That would so far have counted for about EL13-ish, already pretty much out of your league. And here we're still talking the standard abilities (with higher Save DCs). Arbitrarily making the abilities also much more powerful by effect basically should blow the EL out of the water. Okay, I wasn't there, I don't know your group, but to me that feels like the DM was shooting for a TPK.

[Troacctid]

#1 Warblades are not _the_ DPR class. They won't get as high as a Pouncebarian. Their advantage is that they can do _good_ DPR and they get the job done, because they aren't stopped by the first Hold Person that is thrown at them.
I mean. Unless you're a Pounceblade.

[Telok]

dipping psywar is rough on a warblade since it ropes in one of the few abilties you don't need, and I definitely wouldn't advise it since op is trying to play under an elite array.

aside from stone dragon being a terrible school on its own merits by the effects not being good, the secret drawback a lot of people miss is it doesn't work when you're flying, which at mid levels is vital.

Well it's not like your doing the whole over-hyped psionic lion's charge and mega-expansion that eats all your power points for breakfast. No, the build grabbed a one or two bonus feats and a couple low cost perception and utility powers plus Force Screen. The trick was combining two abilities that turned your attacks into touch attacks and just Power Attacking for full with a two handed weapon for every single attack. Warblade added counters, rerolls, defenses, and Insightful Strike. It's a decent damage with expanded utility and defenses build.

The flying thing doesn't really take off until levels 11+, but it isn't just flying that's an issue for Stone Dragon. It's that stupid "in contact with the ground" (ToB p.81) clause and some DMs who get strict about it that really kill the school. I've heard of wooden towers, rope bridges, sailing ships, and even a wagon as negating the school. The OP's DM could be one of those, what with the cloaker thing and all.

[Venger]

Well it's not like your doing the whole over-hyped psionic lion's charge and mega-expansion that eats all your power points for breakfast. No, the build grabbed a one or two bonus feats and a couple low cost perception and utility powers plus Force Screen. The trick was combining two abilities that turned your attacks into touch attacks and just Power Attacking for full with a two handed weapon for every single attack. Warblade added counters, rerolls, defenses, and Insightful Strike. It's a decent damage with expanded utility and defenses build.

The flying thing doesn't really take off until levels 11+, but it isn't just flying that's an issue for Stone Dragon. It's that stupid "in contact with the ground" (ToB p.81) clause and some DMs who get strict about it that really kill the school. I've heard of wooden towers, rope bridges, sailing ships, and even a wagon as negating the school. The OP's DM could be one of those, what with the cloaker thing and all.

Sure. I just mean he will not be able to prioritize wisdom in order to do cool psywar stuff that often since he's using the elite array and values several other abilities above it.

You're right about stone dragon, I just use flying as a shorthand since it's something everyone must be able to do, so it's never not gonna come up, but it is a problem if you want to leap attack, use tiger claw stuff for mobility, etc.