Minionmancy of the highest caliber.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ok so if I'm reading rules right.

Oathbreaker 5/Necromancer 15

Can use channel divinity to control CR 4 and below undead. (thinking another wight or a ghost or ghast)
Can use 8th level slot (and an army's graveyard) to create 12 Skeletons.
Can use 9th level slot to create 3 wights, each of which can control up to 12 zombies.
Can use Command Undead on potentially a Mummy Lord, for permanent control.

What else can this do? Within a 24 hour period.

[NNescio]

Ok so if I'm reading rules right.

Oathbreaker 5/Necromancer 15

Can use channel divinity to control CR 4 and below undead. (thinking another wight or a ghost or ghast)
Can use 8th level slot (and an army's graveyard) to create 12 Skeletons.
Can use 9th level slot to create 3 wights, each of which can control up to 12 zombies.
Can use Command Undead on potentially a Mummy Lord, for permanent control.

What else can this do? Within a 24 hour period.

It can stuff a bunch of uncontrolled undead in a Demiplane to unleash later (doesn't matter if they're hostile to you too if you can just leg it out of there.

[Maxilian]

It can stuff a bunch of uncontrolled undead in a Demiplane to unleash later (doesn't matter if they're hostile to you too if you can just leg it out of there.

Also its useful to put control some "guards" in a zone, its not like they will walk away (unless they end up following a living creature out).

Note: Finger of Death give you a permanent Undead (no need to recast Raise Undeath to keep control)

[DivisibleByZero]

Also its useful to put control some "guards" in a zone, its not like they will walk away (unless they end up following a living creature out)

It's also useful to make your DM create encounters which will TPK the party when the first thing goes wrong, or make encounters entirely inconsequential to the point where you should ask yourself why you're even playing.
Minionmancers ruin the game being played at the table.

[Maxilian]

It's also useful to make your DM create encounters which will TPK the party when the first thing goes wrong, or make encounters entirely inconsequential to the point where you should ask yourself why you're even playing.
Minionmancers ruin the game being played at the table.

Why? why would the minions make the encounter harder? and why Zombies / Skeletons? (I may understand a little bit with a Druid minionmancer -Pixies can do way more than a Zombie or Skeleton- )

Note: Also pretty sure that in most cases, having a huge army of skeletons or/and zombies are not things you can easily walk around with (and if you do, you are going to pick people interest -And having in mind how Necromancy is mostly seen, i don't think it would be a good kind of interest)

[KorvinStarmast]

Ok so if I'm reading rules right.

Oathbreaker 5/Necromancer 15

Can use channel divinity to control CR 4 and below undead. (thinking another wight or a ghost or ghast)
Can use 8th level slot (and an army's graveyard) to create 12 Skeletons.
Can use 9th level slot to create 3 wights, each of which can control up to 12 zombies.
Can use Command Undead on potentially a Mummy Lord, for permanent control.

What else can this do? Within a 24 hour period.
Besides terrorizing must villages, I'd ask you to consider what threat this poses to a monster with a CR 17-20. To a monster with CR 20-24. That's the kind of encounter a level 20 character will often face.

[Pichu]

Ok so if I'm reading rules right.

Oathbreaker 5/Necromancer 15

Can use channel divinity to control CR 4 and below undead. (thinking another wight or a ghost or ghast)
Can use 8th level slot (and an army's graveyard) to create 12 Skeletons.
Can use 9th level slot to create 3 wights, each of which can control up to 12 zombies.
Can use Command Undead on potentially a Mummy Lord, for permanent control.

What else can this do? Within a 24 hour period.

Am I the only one here wondering how you got the 9th level spell slot? You're only a 15th level caster...:smallconfused: I'm probably just blind tho

[Maxilian]

Besides terrorizing must villages, I'd ask you to consider what threat this poses to a monster with a CR 17-20. To a monster with CR 20-24. That's the kind of encounter a level 20 character will often face.

Another target (HP bag), as a DM i have seen, that evading at least one attack is quite useful.

Also if you using the Flanking rule, it makes it easier for you to get flanking and make it harder for you to get flanked.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Am I the only one here wondering how you got the 9th level spell slot? You're only a 15th level caster...:smallconfused: I'm probably just blind tho

Multi class rules, 5 levels of paladin is 2 levels of full caster

Ideally this is the type of army you build if you need to face another army, or if your party is about to be seiged on. Normally I would have 2 skeles, and a wight all dressed up and gentle reposed. Wight would have 1 or 2 zombies as meat nuggets Before being disposed of. Zombies in my mind are too dumb to pass for living, and ghasts and ghouls are naturally repulsive. Skeles would be archers, and eight would be my best buddy. Oh and I'd have a mummy lord sitting somewhere in a cave with a clone of me. He's to be the Lt. Rags

[KorvinStarmast]

Another target (HP bag), as a DM i have seen, that evading at least one attack is quite useful. Relevant for monsters without an AoE attack, certainly.

Also if you using the Flanking rule, it makes it easier for you to get flanking and make it harder for you to get flanked. An optional rule, but I can see your point if that rule is used.

[NNescio]

Multi class rules, 5 levels of paladin is 2 levels of full caster

Ideally this is the type of army you build if you need to face another army, or if your party is about to be seiged on. Normally I would have 2 skeles, and a wight all dressed up and gentle reposed. Wight would have 1 or 2 zombies as meat nuggets Before being disposed of. Zombies in my mind are too dumb to pass for living, and ghasts and ghouls are naturally repulsive. Skeles would be archers, and eight would be my best buddy. Oh and I'd have a mummy lord sitting somewhere in a cave with a clone of me. He's to be the Lt. Rags

Eh, the usual Wizard or Druid 20 can take out an entire army with Control Weather or Mirage Arcane anyway. Non-necromancer Wizards also get access to minionmancy via True Polymorph and Planar Binding (bolstered with Wish -> Hallow if necessary) shenanigans. They don't even need Planar Binding if they limit themselves to most constructs.

It's harder for Druids to get mass Minionmancy going (most with 'conventional' spells is 32 with Conjure Animals), but they do have Awaken and Animal Shapes.

The Wizard can also use True Polymorph or Shapechange (Druids can use Shapechange) to assume the form of a minionmaster monster like a Young Red Shadow Dragon.

Edit: With all that said though, Necromancer minions do have the significant advantage of remaining functional even in an AMF, unlike most TPm or summoned minions.

[Maxilian]

Relevant for monsters without an AoE attack, certainly.

And for those that have Multiattack (at least one of those attacks is going to a zombie, that's less damage for you and your team, also you could use them to provoke OA so you won't provoke OA -only 1 reaction-)

and when the enemy have an AoE (like Dragons), work around it, just position your zombies in a better place (harder to do while playing without minis -Also easier to do with skeletons -as they have better movility so its easier to re-position



An optional rule, but I can see your point if that rule is used.

I have always used it, but it seens that most people dislike it (i can see why, it makes combat with many mobs -even if lower CR- harder, while making things with 1 big creature easier)

[KorvinStarmast]

I have always used it, but it seens that most people dislike it (i can see why, it makes combat with many mobs -even if lower CR- harder, while making things with 1 big creature easier) It slows combat down unless everyone at the table has game system mastery.

I was in a game last year that used it: half the people were casual players, and it really slowed things down. Me, being veteran and tactically minded, it didn't bother me but I really like the KISS principle of basic 5e combat. Keeps things moving.

[Maxilian]

It slows combat down unless everyone at the table has game system mastery.

I was in a game last year that used it: half the people were casual players, and it really slowed things down. Me, being veteran and tactically minded, it didn't bother me but I really like the KISS principle of basic 5e combat. Keeps things moving.

Why would it slow it, its basically a:

A) You're flanking /or being flanked

B) You're not flaking /or not being flanked

How why would it slow down the combat? (I have always use this roll, even with new players, the only detail is that they may not always take advantage of this rule -Because they are new- but not that it will slow down the combat)

[Temperjoke]

Why would it slow it, its basically a:

A) You're flanking /or being flanked

B) You're not flaking /or not being flanked

How why would it slow down the combat? (I have always use this roll, even with new players, the only detail is that they may not always take advantage of this rule -Because they are new- but not that it will slow down the combat)

If every minion had a separate initiative spot, that's a lot of turns. Heck, even if they all just used the same initiative spot, that's still a lot of attack rolls.

[Maxilian]

If every minion had a separate initiative spot, that's a lot of turns. Heck, even if they all just used the same initiative spot, that's still a lot of attack rolls.

Oh, in that comment we were talking about the optional rule of flanking (not the minions per se)

But yes, it would be best to make all minions share an initiative and make all the Attack Roles at the same time (to make things faster) -If you have WAY too many, just roll just divide them by groups (you have 50 minions, in 5 groups of 10, 5 rolls).

[Mortis_Elrod]

Oh, in that comment we were talking about the optional rule of flanking (not the minions per se)

But yes, it would be best to make all minions share an initiative and make all the Attack Roles at the same time (to make things faster) -If you have WAY too many, just roll just divide them by groups (you have 50 minions, in 5 groups of 10, 5 rolls).

Yeah that's how I would do it myself. I'm looking through the monster manual and I could control a bone naga or flame skull or shadow too, with the oath breaker ability. What do you think of these, better or worse than another wight.

[NNescio]

Why would it slow it, its basically a:

A) You're flanking /or being flanked

B) You're not flaking /or not being flanked

How why would it slow down the combat? (I have always use this roll, even with new players, the only detail is that they may not always take advantage of this rule -Because they are new- but not that it will slow down the combat)

Players will start to extrapolate movement from each enemy to squares around them, because getting flanked is a death sentence (except for the tankiest of characters against enemies with weak to-hit bonuses. in which case advantage is roughly equivalent to a +1~2).

[KorvinStarmast]

How why would it slow down the combat? Given that you didn't play with our group, I'll not bother answering. It did.

Look, I grew up with this game, and have been through all editions besides 4th. I've done fast combat and slow combat. I've done high simulation and low simulation. Grids and no grids. Facing and no facing. Flanking and no flanking. Limited number of monsters whose attack your shield works against based on shield size. Rounds and segments. And so on.

I like the greater amount of abstraction of 5e's KISS system, particularly in a decent sized group (5-6 players and 1 DM) and not all having system mastery.

One of the things I also like about 5e is that for any reason at all the DM can grant advantage or disadvantage based on circumstances (and you can ask if you have advantage at our table if you think a circumstance would indicate such).

I can have fun doing it other ways too, and have.

[Maxilian]

@KorvinStarmast

Sorry if my comment was seen as an attack on the way your group plays.

Just wanted to know:smallfrown:

[DivisibleByZero]

Given that you didn't play with our group, I'll not bother answering. It did.

Look, I grew up with this game, and have been through all editions besides 4th. I've done fast combat and slow combat. I've done high simulation and low simulation. Grids and no grids. Facing and no facing. Flanking and no flanking. Limited number of monsters whose attack your shield works against based on shield size. Rounds and segments. And so on.

I like the greater amount of abstraction of 5e's KISS system, particularly in a decent sized group (5-6 players and 1 DM) and not all having system mastery.

One of the things I also like about 5e is that for any reason at all the DM can grant advantage or disadvantage based on circumstances (and you can ask if you have advantage at our table if you think a circumstance would indicate such).

I can have fun doing it other ways too, and have.

If we were out right now, I'd buy you a beer.
This echoes my experiences and my viewpoint perfectly. I've been around the block a time or thirty myself, and while AD&D2e has always been my favorite edition to play, 5e is my favorite edition to conduct combat, precisely because of it's speed and relative simplicity.

[KorvinStarmast]

@KorvinStarmast

Sorry if my comment was seen as an attack on the way your group plays.

Just wanted to know:smallfrown: I apologize if my reply came across as salty.

It's not the matter of "the way our group plays" but the particular mix of what we bring to the table in the group. At a given table, your approach may work perfectly, and as I noted I've played with facing and flanking and such as far back as original D&D. For the tactically minded, it provides another decision to make to win a given fight or to cover another character's flank.

My last experience with it was with a DM who liked it and the players who were not all into that, other than two of the six. Needless to say, the NPC's and monsters run by the DM were constantly working to use flanks, as the DM was into it. That made some of the encounters a bit one sided due to the "not on the same page" and "not interested in that level of detail" by the majority of those at the table.

Again, sorry if that response came across as salty, I was trying to get across that I'm not going to theory craft when I've got experience with something, or more importantly, experience with a group of people.

[Maxilian]

Players will start to extrapolate movement from each enemy to squares around them, because getting flanked is a death sentence (except for the tankiest of characters against enemies with weak to-hit bonuses. in which case advantage is roughly equivalent to a +1~2).

Well, in my experience, not all mobs will take advantage of the flanking (most beast won't -Depends the beast of course-) and some humanoid won't either, i also try not to punish the players that much for not knowing a rule (even more one that is an optional rule that is only in the DMG)

[Maxilian]

Yeah that's how I would do it myself. I'm looking through the monster manual and I could control a bone naga or flame skull or shadow too, with the oath breaker ability. What do you think of these, better or worse than another wight.

Bone Nagas are casters, that is quite nice (and they also have Hold Person, and you know what that means for your army of Undeads? Crit crit crit -In general they are a nice option and they are Large, so they could, in theory, be a mount- (Bone Nagas don't have sunlight sensitivity)

Wight give you the advantage of more undeads (A humanoid slain by Life Drain its raised as an undead) -This may be a 2 edges sword, cause if you lose control of the Wight, you will have to deal with it and all the undeads it created under your service. (Wight have a great combination of resistance, so if fighting non-magical foes, the Wight becomes even better -because of its resistance to non-magical damage)

Shadows are way weaker than the both options above, but is great as a scout and as an Assasin (of a non-magic user or enchanted warrior -because of its resistance to non-magical damage)

Flameskull, a really strong caster, and funny enough, its even better against caster than anything else thanks to all its elemental resistance (Ligthing and necrotic) and inmunities (cold, fire and poison), so not leaving many options for casters. (Unsure on how the Rejuvenation ability would work with the Oathbreaker control)

[Maxilian]

I apologize if my reply came across as salty.

It's not the matter of "the way our group plays" but the particular mix of what we bring to the table in the group. At a given table, your approach may work perfectly, and as I noted I've played with facing and flanking and such as far back as original D&D. For the tactically minded, it provides another decision to make to win a given fight or to cover another character's flank.

My last experience with it was with a DM who liked it and the players who were not all into that, other than two of the six. Needless to say, the NPC's and monsters run by the DM were constantly working to use flanks, as the DM was into it. That made some of the encounters a bit one sided due to the "not on the same page" and "not interested in that level of detail" by the majority of those at the table.

Again, sorry if that response came across as salty, I was trying to get across that I'm not going to theory craft when I've got experience with something, or more importantly, experience with a group of people.

Thanks for the reply and i do understand that, i have always tried to work around that (because it does make some combat one sided when you -the DM- uses it and the PC don't).

[Mortis_Elrod]

Snip


Well I was hoping to use find steed for a skeletal warhorse ..
Bone naga is a weird mount to be traveling with, I can't least disguise a skeletal warhorse

[Maxilian]

Well I was hoping to use find steed for a skeletal warhorse ..
Bone naga is a weird mount to be traveling with, I can't least disguise a skeletal warhorse

Use your disguise kit, get a Blacksmith to give you a hand and make the Bone Naga look like a mechanical (something created by an Artificer), and get some robes and mask to your skeletons so they could go around like your bodyguards. (In the end, a great Artificer like yourself need bodyguards!)

[MaxWilson]

Ok so if I'm reading rules right.

Oathbreaker 5/Necromancer 15

Can use channel divinity to control CR 4 and below undead. (thinking another wight or a ghost or ghast)
Can use 8th level slot (and an army's graveyard) to create 12 Skeletons.
Can use 9th level slot to create 3 wights, each of which can control up to 12 zombies.
Can use Command Undead on potentially a Mummy Lord, for permanent control.

What else can this do? Within a 24 hour period.

Multiclassing is pointless here. Just create wights the normal way (as a Necromancer 15 using an 8th level spell slot) and then use normal Necromancer means to bind them long-term (Geas VIII + Mass Suggestion VIII) as soon as you've got a dozen. Wights are not immune to charm.

Expending five levels on Paladin just to pick up a short-rest control ability is pointless.

(Also, consider spell research a la Planar Binding, but for undead.)