Which level should my fun spell be? What problems are there that are worth fixing?

[Dmitriy]

I have made a fun spell for 3.5e/Pathfinder, with Lesser and Greater versions. Here is the spell:


Spell name: Inflict Random Summon Nature’s Ally Cure

Casting time: 1 standard action

Components: V, S

Range: 10 feet*D100

Spell Resistance: Roll D10. 1-5 — yes, 6-10 — no.

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: Yes, random to halve, natural 20 negates, natural 1 doubles.

Base saving DC: 10+1D10

System:

I. Roll for spell’s range (10 feet*D100) and choose a target within it. You must see your target. If you choose not to appoint a target within the range you rolled, you become a chicken for 1D4 rounds.

II. Roll D6 to determine the saving throw. Even if the spell happens to actually heal the target, it still rolls to save.

1-2: Fortitude

3-4: Will

5-6: Reflex

III. Roll D10 to determine spell’s damage type.


Positive energy -- heals living targets, harms undead, no effect on constructs
Negative energy -- harms living targets, harms undead, no effect on constructs
Cold
Fire
Electricity
Acid
Sonic
Bludgeoning
Piercing
Slashing


IV. If the target has spell resistance, roll D10. On 6-10 SR is ignored, the spell penetrates. On 1-5 SR works as normal, and the spell is resisted even if the spell should heal the target.

V. Then roll for damage (or healing) inflicted, depending on spell version:

Lesser — D20
Normal — D100
Greater — D1000 (Roll 3 D10 of different colour, just as you roll 2 D10 for D100)
If this number rolled is a natural 1 or a natural round number (the one that ends with zero, such as 10, 20, 100 etc.), you become a chicken for 1D4 rounds.

VI. The target attempts to save. Natural 1 on the save roll doubles the effect of this spell, including the rounds you spend as a chicken if you do. Natural 20 negates the spell for both parties. Normal success on the save halves damage/healing done.

VII. You cannot apply Maximize Metamagic to this spell in any way, it is already reliable enough.

Description: In desperation, you call for the help of the Chaos that shaped the universe at the beginning. A ray of something starts at your fingertip and aims at your target, and never misses, indicating reliability of that spell. The ray penetrates but doesn’t damage everything on its way to your designated target, and possibly somehow turns you into a chicken.
I think, it is clear that this spell is supposed to be a fun one, but it shouldn't actually become a game breaker. Of course, it should inflict more average damage than other spells of the same level due to how random and risky it is, but not too much.

So, which level should the normal, Lesser and Greater versions of this spell be?

UPD: Clarified how I intended this to work.

[Larrx]

Ok? So . . .

Chance to become a chicken (ignoring range and spell resistance):

lesser 19.25%
normal 15.45%
greater 14.295%

There really isn't an expected value for a single die (one of the reasons most big damage in the system comes from static bonuses or piles of dice, too much variance isn't super healthy for the game), but you seem to want a ton of variance, so we'll use 10.5, 50.5, and 500.5 (the expected value if a player were to cast the spells many times over the course of the campaign . . . which isn't going to happen, but whatever).

10.5 is the same expected value as 3d6 (fun), so what you might expect to get out of a 2nd level slot with a caster level of 3.

A likely harder save, but chance for chicken and damage that doesn't scale with CL puts lesser at lvl 1 imo.

50.5 is ~14.5d6, which is a lot, but it's just damage (and single target to boot). The save should be about right. I'd say 6th, maybe 5th.

500.5 is 143d6, which is ridiculous and could one shot deities with no build resources other than picking this spell when you level up.The save DC is likely garbage, but I'd still say no.

The chance of chickening due to range is negligible simply due to the size of most people's tables. You'd have to roll very low not to be in range of an enemy to target, and the player can play it safe by not choosing to cast unless an enemy or disposable minion is within 10'.

The SR clause is likely negligible as well. A 50% failure rate regardless of the amount of SR the target has makes this spell a solid 'don't cast this' against any foe with SR. I guess a player might cast this accidentally against a foe they don't know has SR, but depending on how knowledge checks work in your games (combined with the chance of another caster going first and watching the spell fizzle) I just don't see it coming up much.

The spell's not game breaking, but it could well be encounter breaking. CCing yourself is crippling, and boring for the player, as his next 1-8(!) rounds are 'cluck'. Chickening is more likely and harsher than the much maligned critical fumble rules. One shotting a boss fight is disappointing. Both can happen with this spell. Also, the 6-8(!) rolls needed to adjudicate this spell, some requiring look-up on tables, is gonna slow play. I wouldn't allow this spell in my games, but not everybody's me, I hope you have fun with it.

Couple things you might want to change:

Negative energy harms undead, which is fine by me if the spell does that, but it looks like a typo.

Spell aren't subject to DR, so the b/s/p damage types are fungible as written. Fine if you just want fill out the table (although 1d8 with the 8 being untyped would work similarly), or you might want to add a clause that this spell in particular is effected by DR.

edit: apparently my grammar is off-line at 6 in the morning

[Kelb_Panthera]

You say "fun." I say "I would never cast this spell unless compelled to do so by a compulsion effect."

Who would cast this? I'd rather be subjected to wild magic for extended periods than to voluntarily cast this spell even once.

I mean, level 2 and level 5 for the least and normal versions and the greater is beyond 9th but they're all entirely too dangerous to use at any level.

[Crake]

The SR clause is likely negligible as well. A 50% failure rate regardless of the amount of SR the target has makes this spell a solid 'don't cast this' against any foe with SR. I guess a player might cast this accidentally against a foe they don't know has SR, but depending on how knowledge checks work in your games (combined with the chance of another caster going first and watching the spell fizzle) I just don't see it coming up much.

Just a nitpick about this, where are you getting that 50% failure rate regardless of the SR?

From what it looks like, it has a 50% chance to ignore SR

[Mordaedil]

Uh, so what exactly does a higher caster level contribute to this spell at all? This seems like a spell I'd never prepare, just keep on a scroll at best, and given how random the effects are, wouldn't even do that.

d20 damage is too low and d1000 is too high and d100 damage isn't really interesting or appropriate at any level.

[Larrx]

Just a nitpick about this, where are you getting that 50% failure rate regardless of the SR?

From what it looks like, it has a 50% chance to ignore SR

Isn't that the same thing? If the target has SR than the spell will work 50% of the time, and fail 50% of the time. It has half a chance to fail and half a chance to succeed regardless of, and ignoring the rules that normally adjudicate, the actual amount of SR the target has. So we agree, right, we're saying the same thing?

Or do you mean to highlight the fact that this might be really useful when facing an enemy with otherwise very problematic SR. That is something I hadn't considered. I think that the fact that even a smidge of SR drops the spell to a 50% chance is more of a drawback than the advantage you gain against big SR foes.

Assuming appropriate CR encounters, players can expect to see weaker enemies again and again (just in greater numbers), but the bleeding edge of what they can tackle will always be small. So the space where the 50/50 is advantageous is small, but the space where it's not worth trying is large.

You could argue that an optimizer might pick this to use against a high SR foe for the free 50%, but no one would do that. You pick an SR:no spell for that.

[Mordaedil]

Larrx, do you not know how the spell resistance rules work or are you edging debate on this?

Just in case, I'll just lay it down. Spell resistance is a value given to any creature, usually based on X + it's HD, where X is anything from 5, to 17. A mindflayer has 25 spell resistance.

A player character casting a spell on a mind flayer has to overcome that value by rolling a d20, adding their own character level and any bonus from Spell Penetration feats (or the like). This often comes up to 50% given the targets are equal level, but often it is not at all. Spells will either fizzle against overwhelming odds or succeed. Being better at casting actually matters.

This spell by contrast suggests that 50% of the time the spell just ignores this defense value and other times they have to still roll to overcome it.

Essentially in a given scenario where spell resistance applies, they now go from having that 50% chance to get through, to a 75% chance to penetrate.

Hope this clarification helps.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't that the same thing? If the target has SR than the spell will work 50% of the time, and fail 50% of the time. It has half a chance to fail and half a chance to succeed regardless of, and ignoring the rules that normally adjudicate, the actual amount of SR the target has. So we agree, right, we're saying the same thing?

Or do you mean to highlight the fact that this might be really useful when facing an enemy with otherwise very problematic SR. That is something I hadn't considered. I think that the fact that even a smidge of SR drops the spell to a 50% chance is more of a drawback than the advantage you gain against big SR foes.

Assuming appropriate CR encounters, players can expect to see weaker enemies again and again (just in greater numbers), but the bleeding edge of what they can tackle will always be small. So the space where the 50/50 is advantageous is small, but the space where it's not worth trying is large.

You could argue that an optimizer might pick this to use against a high SR foe for the free 50%, but no one would do that. You pick an SR:no spell for that.

No, no.

It's a 50/50 roll for whether you roll against spell resistance or not. If it passes, you bypass SR. If it fails, you roll against SR normally. It effectively cuts their SR in half.

[Larrx]

Larrx, do you not know how the spell resistance rules work or are you edging debate on this?

Just in case, I'll just lay it down. Spell resistance is a value given to any creature, usually based on X + it's HD, where X is anything from 5, to 17. A mindflayer has 25 spell resistance.

A player character casting a spell on a mind flayer has to overcome that value by rolling a d20, adding their own character level and any bonus from Spell Penetration feats (or the like). This often comes up to 50% given the targets are equal level, but often it is not at all. Spells will either fizzle against overwhelming odds or succeed. Being better at casting actually matters.

This spell by contrast suggests that 50% of the time the spell just ignores this defense value and other times they have to still roll to overcome it.

Essentially in a given scenario where spell resistance applies, they now go from having that 50% chance to get through, to a 75% chance to penetrate.

Hope this clarification helps.


No, no.

It's a 50/50 roll for whether you roll against spell resistance or not. If it passes, you bypass SR. If it fails, you roll against SR normally. It effectively cuts their SR in half.

I may have misunderstood the spell (I know how SR works). I thought that the spell was saying 'roll, 50% the spell works, regardless of SR'. You two seem to think the spell says 'roll, 50% the targets spell resistance doesn't work'. I think the text of the spell is unclear? I mean it just says 'it' confusion is perhaps expected. Which will help the OP to edit!

Sorry if I misunderstood prior comments.

[Alea]

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. This spell would be so bad for the game that I would seriously consider passing on a game for no other reason that this spell is in it. That is way, way too random.

[NOhara24]

I have made a fun spell for 3.5e/Pathfinder, with Lesser and Greater versions. Here is the spell:



So, which level should the normal, Lesser and Greater versions of this spell be?

You made a spell that totally ignores the target's saves - the chance to halve the spells effects are "random" (whatever that means) and it's 5% to negate - regardless of how good the target's saves are. Based on that alone (despite your description that it's not supposed to be game-breaking...) it's impossible to assign it a spell level.

Also, the "lesser" version of the spell rolls a D20 for damage - are you serious?:smallannoyed: Like other posters in the thread have said, I'd pass on a game if this spell was a known entity.

[Barstro]

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. This spell would be so bad for the game that I would seriously consider passing on a game for no other reason that this spell is in it. That is way, way too random.

I agree with this entirely. The ONLY saving grace is that the major downside of turning into a chicken is 1d4 rounds. But that is probably enough to kill someone.

Your attempt at humor and randomness are appreciated, but I feel that the extreme ends are just too extreme. This spell is something I expect to see as a wand in a book where some worthless protagonist has to choose between using this or having his family destroyed by the BBEG. I thoroughly dislike books of that ilk.

[icefractal]

I think there's room for random effects - see Confusion, Prismatic Spray, etc. This spell is a bit too random in ways that just make it hard to remember, and not actually that random in what it does - almost always just cause damage.

First off, I'd start by deciding a level to put it at, and then base the effects off that. Let's say 2nd level for the Lesser one. Scorching Ray will be our starting point. We'll go with 1d6 * CL for the damage (max CL 10th). This is about equal (but more random) than Scorching Ray. The lack of SR is better, but the random-ness will usually be a disadvantage (and not all results are useful), so I think it balances out. It might be a little weak in fact - if so, it could be buffed up by adding a few more entries to the table and making some of them beefier than a 2nd level spell would normally accomplish.


Lesser Chaos Bolt (Conjuration)
close range, duration instantaneous or one minute (see text), save varies (see text), SR no

You fire a bolt of raw chaos from limbo at your foe, still in the process of becoming matter or energy as it flies. Make a ranged touch attack to hit, then roll on the following table (1d10). Damage is always 1d6 x caster level (maximum x10) unless otherwise stated.

1 - Yourself. You are hurled at the target; both take bludgeoning damage. On a miss, you still take damage.
2 - Burning Tar. Fire damage and Reflex or entangled as per a net.
3 - Electric Eel. Electric damage and an Eel appears grappling target as per SNA I (snake stats without poison).
4 - Ice Slick. Cold damage and the ground along the line of effect is slippery as per Grease for one minute.
5 - Bilious Spray. Acid damage and everyone within 10’ of the line of effect (including you) must make a Fort save or be sickened one minute.
6 - Gemstones. Bludgeoning damage, and leaves fist-sized gems behind. They’re fake though, just cut glass.
7 - Hallucinogenic Darts. 1d6 piercing damage, and Fortitude or be confused one minute.
8 - Spinning Blades. Slashing damage, then ricochets at a random target within range (can be you).
9 - Bugs. 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and the target is now in a swarm, as per Summon Swarm, duration one minute. Roll 1d3 for the type of swarm: Spider, Locust, or Centipede.
10 - Chickens. Flings 2d6 chickens at the target, which land harmlessly nearby. These are summoned creatures (as per SNA I, use raven stats), but aren’t under anyone’s control and have no desire to fight.

[Dmitriy]

I have clarified how it works in the original post. CR is 50% to be applied as normal and 50% to be ignored.

Save is rolled normally to halve damage, but there is 10% to either ignore the spell entitely (roll a natural 20) or suffer doubled effect (roll a natural 1).

What goes to damage, I would then suggest the following damage increments:

1) 1D20
2) 1/2*1D100+1
3) D100
4) 1/2*1D1000+1
5) 1D1000

Some additional randomness could be added to nerf the 1D1000 spell a bit.

I am thinking to add an effect kind of opposing Desintagration:


If this spell puts your target to 0 HP or below, or you succesfully affect a creature already at or below 0 HP, your target is turned into a chicken and its HP is fully restored. The only thing that can turn it to normal form is 1D20 Cure spells or taking a rest for the night. Long rest during the day doesn't count, it should rest during the night.

If your target survives this, for the rest if its life it will be capable of communicating with chickens in any form and assuming chicken shape at will as a standard action.