Is this legal? (silly size weapons)

[weckar]

So I got a Warforged who is only proficient with simple weapons but has the component that makes him have powerful build (the name escapes me). I figured that this means that for only a -2 attack penalty I can wield a Huge morningstar. Weapons being made for creatures two sizes up from their own size, though, this means I could wield a weapon literally the size of myself with only a -2 penalty (effective -1 if it is masterwork) AND do that without a reach increase?

Does this make sense?

[Crake]

technically a huge one handed weapon is large size, not medium, so it's actually larger than yourself. As to why it doesn't give you reach, simple really, if you reached out that far with a weapon of that size, your center of gravity would be too far out for you to control, and you'd just fall flat on your face. Clearly, the only way you can possibly wield such a weapon would be to hold it quite high up the haft and swing it about like that, effectively reducing it's capablity to extend beyond your reach.

[weckar]

Well, I would be 2-handing it obviously as I would be RAW unable to 1-hand it (+1 Size for 2h, +1 size for PowB).

Your explanation does make sense though. 3d6+1.5*Str isn't bad base damage I suppose.


Also, "technically a huge one handed weapon is large size, not medium", how exactly do you figure that?

[Crake]

Well, I would be 2-handing it obviously as I would be RAW unable to 1-hand it (+1 Size for 2h, +1 size for PowB).

Your explanation does make sense though. 3d6+1.5*Str isn't bad base damage I suppose.


Also, "technically a huge one handed weapon is large size, not medium", how exactly do you figure that?

If you look at page 113 of the players handbook, under "weapon size" it says "In general, a light weapon (such as a dagger) is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon (such as a longsword) is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon (such as a greatsword) is an object of the same size category as the wielder."

So a huge morningstar (a one handed weapon) should be large size.

[Hal0Badger]

So I got a Warforged who is only proficient with simple weapons but has the component that makes him have powerful build (the name escapes me). I figured that this means that for only a -2 attack penalty I can wield a Huge morningstar. Weapons being made for creatures two sizes up from their own size, though, this means I could wield a weapon literally the size of myself with only a -2 penalty (effective -1 if it is masterwork) AND do that without a reach increase?

Does this make sense?

Can you write how you get powerful build on Warforged please? I can use that for further builds actually.

[Vhaidara]

raises hand

Why not just use a Large greatsword for 3d6 weapon dice with no penalty to hit?

Also, yeah, large weapons dont change reach at all. One of the famous examples is the titan bloodline, which allows you to use a gargantuan warhammer. Regardless of your original size. People combine it with pixies for giant invisible flying hammers.

[weckar]

Greatsword isn't a simple weapon, so the nonproficiency penalty would be worse.

The PowB is an imported homebrew component (I think? It was on our campaign list but I can't find it elsewhere...) called Massive Frame. If there's an official source for it, great.

[Pugwampy]

Greatsword isn't a simple weapon, so the nonproficiency penalty would be worse.

If you going to all that trouble to get a large/huge weapon , why not burn a martial or exotic weapon feat ?

[weckar]

Because at the end of the day, -2 isn't that big a deal. Certainly not worth a feat.

[Mordaedil]

Non-proficiency is -4, isn't it?

[Crake]

Non-proficiency is -4, isn't it?

so the choice between wrongly sized for -2 or non-proficiency for -4, there's a pretty clear victor for that :smalltongue:

That said, it might be a better idea to just use a large morningstar in 2 hands instead, but in all honesty the extra 1d6 in exchange for -2 is slightly worse than simply power attacking for -2.

[Metahuman1]

Alterative option:

Buy the wizard a scroll of both greater magic weapon and greater mighty wallop, 2 pearls of power 3rd level, and a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. Tell him to cast both of those two spells on your weapon at the end of the day, and that he can use the 2 pearls as compensation for the slots. The scrolls cover him knowing the spells. And the Rod, you want him to use 2 of the daily charges on the 2 spells for the weapon, and he may use the 3rd free extend spell use as he likes as compensation for the trouble.


On a budget? Ask the DM to trim a charge from the rod and cut the price accordingly, and only buy 1 pearl of power and the Greater Mighty Wallop Scroll.

Use this on a large Alchemical Platinum Morning Star. Enjoy hitting for size category Collossal+ with a one die size increase (I.E. D6's becomes d8's for example.) dice of damage every time you attack for no extra penalty, and you can one or two hand it as you like.

[Andezzar]

That said, it might be a better idea to just use a large morningstar in 2 hands instead, but in all honesty the extra 1d6 in exchange for -2 is slightly worse than simply power attacking for -2.True, as long as you do not stack modifiers on power attack. Apart from looking silly oversized weapons are usually a trap. Most of the time you can get similar or better results with appropriately sized weapons.

@OP: You may want to reread powerful build. While it does allow the character to use a weapon one size larger than normal without penalty it does not change anything about weapons that are two categories larger. So a huge morningstar could not be wielded by a medium creature, because the effort of use would still be beyond 2-handed.

[Crake]

Alterative option:

Buy the wizard a scroll of both greater magic weapon and greater mighty wallop, 2 pearls of power 3rd level, and a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell. Tell him to cast both of those two spells on your weapon at the end of the day, and that he can use the 2 pearls as compensation for the slots. The scrolls cover him knowing the spells. And the Rod, you want him to use 2 of the daily charges on the 2 spells for the weapon, and he may use the 3rd free extend spell use as he likes as compensation for the trouble.


On a budget? Ask the DM to trim a charge from the rod and cut the price accordingly, and only buy 1 pearl of power and the Greater Mighty Wallop Scroll.

Use this on a large Alchemical Platinum Morning Star. Enjoy hitting for size category Collossal+ with a one die size increase (I.E. D6's becomes d8's for example.) dice of damage every time you attack for no extra penalty, and you can one or two hand it as you like.

The pearls of power are hardly compensation for eating those two slots, since he will still have magic weapon and mighty wallop prepared in those slots, so unless he planned on using them again for himself, then the slots are still useless for his needs unless he has some means to spontaneously convert them or the like.

[Metahuman1]

Or if he

1: Prepares those 2 slots with those 2 spells.

2: Prepares the rest of his 3rd level slots with whatever he's gonna use (hold person, slow, haste, dispel magic, fireball, fly, Summon Monster 3, whatever.)

3: Uses the 2 pearls on whatever those other likely repeatable spells he's prepared are.


Add that he also get's to pick any spell he can cast that can be extended and extend it on your dime once a day every day.

[Crake]

Or if he

1: Prepares those 2 slots with those 2 spells.

2: Prepares the rest of his 3rd level slots with whatever he's gonna use (hold person, slow, haste, dispel magic, fireball, fly, Summon Monster 3, whatever.)

3: Uses the 2 pearls on whatever those other likely repeatable spells he's prepared are.


Add that he also get's to pick any spell he can cast that can be extended and extend it on your dime once a day every day.

Huh, I feel kinda silly now, I actually never thought about using the pearl on another spell :smalltongue:

Still, that's all pretty expensive just for having a heavy attack, 18k for the pearls, 4k for the rod and 1350gp for the scrolls and scribing fees, a little over 23k all up for something that can just be dispelled and become worthless.

[Metahuman1]

True but you can get it back later that day. Hell, depending, that might ironically be the use of the pearl the second time. Getting that running for the day again depending on the timing.


Apart form that. The cheaper version would be to just buy 1 scroll, 1 pearl, and see if the DM will hack a 3rd of the price for the rod off. (I seem to recall they were 3K base price off the top of my head. Away form books atm.).

That should be 13,350gp. 12,350gp if he'll do the hack off.

Bit of money but still reasonable.



If you've got UMD I think an eternal wand would be cheaper though. Bonus points if you can get it as though it has Sudden Extend being used on it (meaning it will be extended but not treated as having been a higher level spell.). If you've got the UMD to use it right and reliably.n

[Andezzar]

If you've got UMD I think an eternal wand would be cheaper though. Bonus points if you can get it as though it has Sudden Extend being used on it (meaning it will be extended but not treated as having been a higher level spell.). If you've got the UMD to use it right and reliably.nIf you don't have UMD any arcane caster in the group could use the wands on you, unfortunately those wands for 3rd level spells are 10900 gp each. no need for extending though because you can use them twice per day.

[weckar]

@OP: You may want to reread powerful build. While it does allow the character to use a weapon one size larger than normal without penalty it does not change anything about weapons that are two categories larger. So a huge morningstar could not be wielded by a medium creature, because the effort of use would still be beyond 2-handed.It's debatable really, as a Large one-handed weapon can usually be 2-handed as if it were a medium 2-hander. Being one size larger for this purpose scales everything accordingly. But I agree that with a super-strict reading it is ambiguous at best.

[Andezzar]

It's debatable really, as a Large one-handed weapon can usually be 2-handed as if it were a medium 2-hander.that is true, however a huge one-handed weapon cannot be wielded by a medium creature.

Being one size larger for this purpose scales everything accordingly.That is not what the feat says. It merely says that a creature with powerful build can wield a weapon designed for a creature one size larger than itself without penalty, which means weapons designed for large creatures in case of a medium creature. The ability changes nothing about weapons designed for creatures of any other size. So the default rules apply, which means a huge one-handed weapon cannot be wielded by a medium creature. So it is not ambiguous at all.

[weckar]

"designed for" is hardly a game term. A Large creature would be able to use a Huge one-hander two-handed.

Not that it matters. That's how my table has always run it. So that's the ruling that counts in this case.

[Andezzar]

"designed for" is hardly a game term. A Large creature would be able to use a Huge one-hander two-handed.The point is the ability does not change what the wielder or the weapon count as but what he can wield without penalty.

[Metahuman1]

If you don't have UMD any arcane caster in the group could use the wands on you, unfortunately those wands for 3rd level spells are 10900 gp each. no need for extending though because you can use them twice per day.

Sure there is. Extend it and one casting lasts all day, leaving you a back up in case of a dispel.

[Thurbane]

Can you write how you get powerful build on Warforged please? I can use that for further builds actually.

I believe he may be referencing the Clone Mask (Dragon # 341), which is an artifact component.

Tauric Belt gives an actual size increase.