Gritty Realism and Spellcasters: How to Fix Them?

[LeonBH]

I'm wondering about Gritty Realism and its place in D&D. Gritty Realism (GR) is the variant rule that says short rests must take 8 hours of light activity, while long rest must take 7 days of light activity. Personally, I haven't seen games religiously stick to the 6-8 encounters per day recommendation that I think GR may still fit into my style of game, except I'll be spreading those 6-8 encounters over one week instead.

But, it does seem to gimp pure casters such as the Sorcerer, who only get resources back on a long rest. Warlocks are OK as their spells regenerate on a short rest, and Wizards and Circle of the Land Druids aren't too bad because they have Arcane Recovery, which works once per day. Bards don't get spells back, but Font of Inspiration at least grants them something back after a short rest.

Except for giving casters back their spell slots after 8 hours of rest as normal (which would sort of negate the GR rule), how do you guys think full casters who get spells back on a long rest should adapt to a GR setting? How have you used it before? How should the DM modify the rules to not nerf these classes too hard, especially at low levels?

[Spore]

How should the DM modify the rules to not nerf these classes too hard, especially at low levels?

I feel those rules are just made to be able to fit in several fights between long rests instead of cramming any action into one insanely detailed adventurer day and then not being able to develop any story in the meantime.

I find the 7 days of light activity stupid to be frank. You should have a day of light activity, like an actual "sunday" for your setting. Pausing a whole week adventuring can fit into your story style but is frankly a terrible idea when the fate of the kingdom is at stake.

[rollingForInit]

I think those rules are mostly intended for adventures where you rarely have more than one minor fight per several days. For instance, if you're playing a political campaign that takes place in a city, combat encounters might be few and far between, and rarely really huge. Instead, spellcasters might spend their spells over a week during social encounters or to involve themselves in intrigues.

Similarly, you could have a campaign where exploration is the by far largest part. Perhaps the party is trapped in a wasteland and need to get out. They'll spend their resources overcoming the obstacles in the area, instead of fighting. There might be long stretches where they just travel (which would be the long rests).

[Asmotherion]

Works as recomended really. Have Cantrips fill in the job and perhaps give back a limited number of spell slots; The idea is to force players on a stricter Spell Slot Economy Regim, as well as a more self-concervation logic on HP.

In Gritty Realism you are not supposed to have too much encounters per day. 1-2 will usually be your maximum, and then you'll spent a week of Downtime to rest. Don't go too strict as to what is and is not light activity though, as you want to allow as much Downtime as possible. For this purpose, interprete light activity as "anything that does not involve combat or tiresome work (such as physical labor)". That said, for a particulary injured PC (that was brought to 0hp for example), you may want a stricter regime, and a full recovery theme, including hospitalisation.

Finally, if you feel uncomfortable with Spellcasting, exclude it from the rest cyrcle, and have it work as normal (Aka, Abilities and Spellcasting that recharge on Short Rest do so after 4 hours and on a long rest after 8 hours of light activity, independently of resting or not.

[Strill]

I think the week of downtime is a bit too much, personally. I think the sweet spot is Short Rest = 8 hours, Long Rest = 24 or 48 hours.

[LeonBH]

I feel those rules are just made to be able to fit in several fights between long rests instead of cramming any action into one insanely detailed adventurer day and then not being able to develop any story in the meantime.

I find the 7 days of light activity stupid to be frank. You should have a day of light activity, like an actual "sunday" for your setting. Pausing a whole week adventuring can fit into your story style but is frankly a terrible idea when the fate of the kingdom is at stake.

I agree with you that it's made to be able to fit the recommended 6-8 encounters over a longer period of time, which is neat. Now a session can have two combats, one, or even none, and we still can follow the normal resource drain you'd expect over an adventuring day.

The 7 days of light activity is fit for a campaign that focuses on RP, intrigue, and politics, I think. A setting with nearly no combat would fit this model, because you can follow the PCs political, non-combative actions over that week. Or they could be exploring the world (I don't believe in random encounters while traveling, personally, so I tend not to throw them at my players), or investigating a hard puzzle that might take a few in-game days to solve. It's something I'd like to try, and it's definitely not a dungeon crawl type of campaign.

But that said, mechanically speaking, the full casters who don't have the ability to regenerate resources on a short rest will always be gimped compared to the non-casters under GR, because once they spend their high level slot, they have to wait 7 days to get it back. Whereas, Warlocks can just sleep and get back all their abilities, and the Champion Fighter barely feels the difference.

I'm thinking, if GR is used, some form of spell recovery for the casters should be useful. Like a free Arcane Recovery for the Clerics, Moon Druids, Sorcerers, Bards, Paladins, and Rangers. Except that steps on the Land Druids' and Wizards' toes, so I'm wondering if you guys have a variant idea that sort of simulates it fairly?


Works as recomended really. Have Cantrips fill in the job and perhaps give back a limited number of spell slots; The idea is to force players on a stricter Spell Slot Economy Regim, as well as a more self-concervation logic on HP.

This is true, cantrips actually make perfect substitutes for spells. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!


Finally, if you feel uncomfortable with Spellcasting, exclude it from the rest cyrcle, and have it work as normal (Aka, Abilities and Spellcasting that recharge on Short Rest do so after 4 hours and on a long rest after 8 hours of light activity, independently of resting or not.

It's not that I'm uncomfortable with spellcasting, I'm just eyeing the balance between, say, Warlocks and Bards. While Warlocks are barely hit by this change (assuming you were having 0-2 encounters per day anyway), Bards are pretty heavily affected. I wanted to mitigate that by just a bit, because I don't want to incentivise a party with only Warlocks, for example.

[hymer]

Wizards and Circle of the Land Druids aren't too bad because they have Arcane Recovery, which works once per day.

That's once per long rest, surely?

[LeonBH]

That's once per long rest, surely?

No, it's once per day per short rest. Here's the text from the PHB.

You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover.

Under standard PHB rules, it's effectively once per long rest. But under GR, they can benefit from it daily until they have to spend a week for their long rests.

[hymer]

No, it's once per day per short rest. Here's the text from the PHB.

You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover.

Under standard PHB rules, it's effectively once per long rest. But under GR, they can benefit from it daily until they have to spend a week for their long rests.

Well, Natural Recovery is slightly different:


During a short rest, you choose expended spell slots to recover. [...] You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

I suspect they were supposed to be identical, but who can tell?

[LeonBH]

You're right. Good to know :)

[Vorpalchicken]

I would make warlocks NPC only in GR. Or at least make their patrons rife with dickery. The eye-of-newt wielders are supposed to be at a disadvantage because spell casters are neither gritty nor realistic.

[mephnick]

Switching to Gritty Realism shouldn't affect resources in any way for long rest classes, the only thing it does is stretch the time line out. You are still supposed to have 6-8 encounters between long rests. Whether the long rest is every night, seven days or 20 years is mechanically insignificant.

There are 3 ways Gritty Realism really affects the game:

1) Short Rest classes are way stronger if you don't restrict their ability to benefit from short rests. They could end up with 6 short rests per long rest. You have to add some restriction like "You can only benefit from a short rest twice per long rest." To be fair, short rest classes are generally weaker (non-casters) so maybe it's not a bad thing.

2) Dungeons become very deadly. Invading a lair with 5 encounters in it becomes a major decision point when no one will be getting even a short rest. You either have to make very small dungeons or your players better prepare well.

3) Some spells become less effective. Spells designed to last multiple encounters (like buffs with 8 hour limits) now only last 1. This is where long rest casters will feel it the most.

[Asmotherion]

I would make warlocks NPC only in GR. Or at least make their patrons rife with dickery. The eye-of-newt wielders are supposed to be at a disadvantage because spell casters are neither gritty nor realistic.


That's extreamly one-sighted.

[LeonBH]

Switching to Gritty Realism shouldn't affect resources in any way for long rest classes, the only thing it does is stretch the time line out. You are still supposed to have 6-8 encounters between long rests. Whether the long rest is every night, seven days or 20 years is mechanically insignificant.

I agree with you, you're right. That's why I'm not really too concerned with the length of the long rest.


1) Short Rest classes are way stronger if you don't restrict their ability to benefit from short rests. They could end up with 6 short rests per long rest. You have to add some restriction like "You can only benefit from a short rest twice per long rest." To be fair, short rest classes are generally weaker (non-casters) so maybe it's not a bad thing.

This is closest to my concern. In a standard adventuring day, you only get 2 short rests between long rests. In the GR variant, PCs could technically go without ever taking long rests. They could theoretically take 6 short rests to a long rest like you said. I don't plan on that, but you know players, they're unpredictable. This could pull more Warlocks and Wizards than Bards and Sorcerers, purely for metagamey reasons. It's not something I'm inclined to incentivise.

The 2 short rest per 1 long rest restriction is a neat way to limit it, actually. It makes a standard adventuring week equal to 9 days. I'll keep that in mind. But in my head, it is a little strange how one night, you sleep and wake up all refreshed (HP is healed, resources regained); whereas on most other nights, this doesn't happen and you only sleep.


I would make warlocks NPC only in GR. Or at least make their patrons rife with dickery. The eye-of-newt wielders are supposed to be at a disadvantage because spell casters are neither gritty nor realistic.

To be honest, I considered banning Warlocks. But in the end, there's really no reason for me to ban it, because then we'd still be comparing short rest classes like Fighters to long rest classes like Barbarians.

[Vorpalchicken]

That's extreamly one-sighted.

Too much magic will ruin the feel. Harry Potter doesn't belong In Game of Thrones.

[Specter]

Yep, as was said before, magic can completely muddle realism. If someone can cast a fireball in a 'realist' setting, they should at least have to wait another week for it, giving the idea that this level of power is not an everyday event. I see no fix needed (but of course, let the players know this is what's going to happen during character creation).

[mephnick]

But in my head, it is a little strange how one night, you sleep and wake up all refreshed (HP is healed, resources regained); whereas on most other nights, this doesn't happen and you only sleep.

It is very gamey but I think it's the only option unfortunately. I've heard some fun ideas about getting rid of the short rest completely and providing an Estus-like flask that holds 2 charges (like Dark Souls) and that replenish eah class like a short rest.

[LeonBH]

It is very gamey but I think it's the only option unfortunately. I've heard some fun ideas about getting rid of the short rest completely and providing an Estus-like flask that holds 2 charges (like Dark Souls) and that replenish eah class like a short rest.

That's another neat idea. They heal by magic, and only long rests exist (during which time, the flasks regenerate). I'll consider it. It feels far from D&D at that point but it does get the job done.

Another solution I thought of, which I'm not very happy with in its current form, is to say their 3rd short rest is always a long rest. It has the same issue of being gamey, though, because nothing is inherently special about your every 3rd sleep.

[DanyBallon]

If you want to stick to RAW, you may vary the lenght of a week. We are used to a seven days week, but the Realms have Tendays. If you are running in an homebrew setting you can easily fix a week to 4 days...

Otherwise you could modify the Gritty realism variant rule as to say that a long rest consist of any 3 (or 2, or 4, etc.) consecutive days of downtime activity.

[Zorku]

No, it's once per day per short rest. Here's the text from the PHB.

You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover.

Under standard PHB rules, it's effectively once per long rest. But under GR, they can benefit from it daily until they have to spend a week for their long rests.

The PHB came out WAY before the DMG so I doubt they took the gritty realism variant into consideration. Now, with that said I think that the gritty realism variant is really sloppily written for not declaring that daily abilities should instead be long rest gated, and maybe the developers should have been explicitly spelling out that once per day abilities are gated by a long rest (unless they found it mechanically meaningful to allow extra uses of these skills when your long rest is interrupted...)

That said, this is a variant rule. If you want a more reasonable time span for 6 combats, then you just need to make all 1 time per day activities into 1 time per (how long you have to go between long rests,) and you're back to the balance you're used to except that the day night cycle runs through a few more times in the mean time.

I do want to stress, however, that the 'adventuring day' is not strictly 6 encounters. It's 6 medium difficulty encounters, which is to say 6 encounters that have a very low likelihood of posing a serious threat to a party. If you're throwing deadly encounters at your players then it's more like 3 encounters per 'adventuring day,' with an so-so chance of this posing a serious threat to the party. Consult the actual chart for xp thresholds, and don't ever try to create an encounter that's meant to take the party from well rested to exhausted in a single go; there be TPKs down that road.


Personally I've been mulling over variable rest rules. You can pull off a short rest in civilization in about an hour, or 8 hours while roughing it. A long rest is only an overnight affair when you've got the luxuries of a city at your disposal, or alternatively, if you're doing it in your own cozy home. During travel on the road you need a nice soft week to count as fully rested, and if you're hot bunking in some reluctant farmer's spare bedroom then you need a full day to get back into sorts.

This is fairly easy to design encounters and story arcs around. There is potential for things like the short gated Warlock spells to make them outshine the party, but I just don't ever cobble together something that should demand that many rests out of them. The party may spend resources poorly or some bad dice rolls might push them into more rests than I expected, but I can decently judge how the world moves while they try to stand still, and having to fully retreat so they can refresh themselves is a steep enough penalty that they're never going to choose to, so I don't mind some folks being more refreshed than others as they go into the home stretch with poor resources available (and honestly, when else are you going to get much chance to kill a character off?)

And because this is variable the short rest guys don't get to cause a lot of trouble around town, where most of my more valuable NPCs are, while they wait forever to take a long rest. They can potentially do some stupid stuff if the party camps in the woods to do it, but I've got random encounter tables and a living world that's going to slap them if they try to do anything munchkin-y with this.

[Squiddish]

Well, the first thing of note is that magic items are still per day, not per rest. I think for a gritty realism that's actually better, as you could give a reason such as "Human bodies can't handle the strain, but a well-made wand can."

[Mjolnirbear]

Hmmm. Shadowmonk'd to the safe comforts of home vs huddled in a hopefully-unpatrolled basement of a dungeon. It makes sense that safe areas are more restful.

[LeonBH]

Personally I've been mulling over variable rest rules. You can pull off a short rest in civilization in about an hour, or 8 hours while roughing it. A long rest is only an overnight affair when you've got the luxuries of a city at your disposal, or alternatively, if you're doing it in your own cozy home. During travel on the road you need a nice soft week to count as fully rested, and if you're hot bunking in some reluctant farmer's spare bedroom then you need a full day to get back into sorts.

This is interesting, but it makes the rest rules variable. It is also a valid solution. It doesn't have the weird issues that limiting the number of effective short rests between long rests has, and offers a narrative reason why the length of the rest changes.

I think that another a neat solution for full and half casters, actually, is to just give them all Spell Points. This lets them conserve as many spell points as they need, never over-casting. As for the Wizard's Arcane Recovery being a useful thing daily, you're right, this needs to be converted into a "once per long rest" instead of "once per day".

[BigONotation]

We use these rules:

Short Rest is 1 night's rest.
Long Rest is 3 night's rest (without serious exertion).

I was skeptical at first, but the more we play this way the more it feels like it actually balances full spellcasters.

[ad_hoc]

It's no different than the standard.

It's just that there is more make believe down time in between. The main use for Gritty Realism is to help make the narrative make more sense.

Also, you don't need to stick to 8 hours/7 days. You could do 4 hours/24 hours, or any combination.

You could also change how long it takes to rest depending on circumstance. For example, it only takes 8 hours for a long rest if you are in an inn.

Also,


Pausing a whole week adventuring can fit into your story style but is frankly a terrible idea when the fate of the kingdom is at stake.

That's the whole point of the variant. You need to push ahead to save the kingdom even though you are hurt and tired.

[Strill]

We use these rules:

Short Rest is 1 night's rest.
Long Rest is 3 night's rest (without serious exertion).

I was skeptical at first, but the more we play this way the more it feels like it actually balances full spellcasters.

3 nights rest with no combat? Or just 3 night's rest?

[Feuerphoenix]

I rewrote the gritty rules on my table, to make spellcasters but also long rest abilities more of a resource to think about twice. So you need to spend 7 days without adventuring (getting attacked in this time is ok, they are just not allowed to go into a dungeon or the sewers etc.).
But (!) short rests remain at 2 hours. Thus longer dungeons and several fights per day are still viable, and short rest abilities are becoming really strong (what I do really like, and my players don't abuse). This makes planning ahead much more important, but keeps fights dynamic (especially with rolling hit dice in between). If they start abusIng, talk to them, that in the worst case, you have to restrict the abuser's abilities to prevent the party from becoming unbalanced :)

[LeonBH]

I rewrote the gritty rules on my table, to make spellcasters but also long rest abilities more of a resource to think about twice. So you need to spend 7 days without adventuring (getting attacked in this time is ok, they are just not allowed to go into a dungeon or the sewers etc.).
But (!) short rests remain at 2 hours. Thus longer dungeons and several fights per day are still viable, and short rest abilities are becoming really strong (what I do really like, and my players don't abuse). This makes planning ahead much more important, but keeps fights dynamic (especially with rolling hit dice in between). If they start abusIng, talk to them, that in the worst case, you have to restrict the abuser's abilities to prevent the party from becoming unbalanced :)

Do you have a Barbarian in the party? How has it affected their play?

[Zorku]

This is interesting, but it makes the rest rules variable. It is also a valid solution. It doesn't have the weird issues that limiting the number of effective short rests between long rests has, and offers a narrative reason why the length of the rest changes.

I think that another a neat solution for full and half casters, actually, is to just give them all Spell Points. This lets them conserve as many spell points as they need, never over-casting. As for the Wizard's Arcane Recovery being a useful thing daily, you're right, this needs to be converted into a "once per long rest" instead of "once per day".
One fall out effect of this, is that
A: Assaulting some dungeon rewards planning and cautious approaches. You don't merely want to kill the boss in the area, you want to make sure that you can survive long enough to patch yourself up afterward (or simply come out of it in good enough condition to travel.)
B: Breaking into some guild hall in the middle of the night is way more of a smash and grab affair where, you'll rely on the chaos to get away. If you're forced to flee the city then things are really dangerous until you can get to some other settlement.

In my worlds the one road towns are about a day's travel apart, so you only really have to camp if you're actively avoiding them or specifically trekking into the wilderness. Altogether this seems like the kind of distinction I want between the order of nations and the savage chaos that is actually the reason that people don't live away from civilization.