I kicked a player out - it was my first time :(

[Jon_Dahl]

After a 2-month break, we had a game of D&D in my apartment. The game session began with the heroes returning to the Adventurers' Guild. The leader of the group was a human barbarian called Heval, and he had named the group Heval and Sons. Other PCs urged him to collect the reward that had been promised to them, but he refused by saying that the reward should be offered to him without asking. So they took another mission without receiving any payment for the one that they had just finished.

Over the course of their new mission, they attacked a Banshrae in a very narrow cave. The fight took over 2 hours, because party's horizon walker engaged it in the corridor and the two party clerics couldn't do much, especially since one of them had silenced the whole place. The barbarian, who could've easily smashed through Banshrae's DR10/cold iron, went to build a bonfire outdoors and smoke it out, even though the wind wasn't right. Eventually the horizon walked retreated and one of the clerics beat the Banshrae to death with his flaming heavy mace.

After the successful mission, with no one dead, the PCs returned back to the Guild and the barbarian refused to collect the reward against. Whenever the barbarian refused to ask for his (their) gold, other players found this amusing. At this point, I asked what their next plan was. Barbarian's player announced that this was his last game, because he refused to be a laughing stock. I was completely stunned by this and I couldn't say a word, and everyone was quiet as he went to the bathroom. We discussed about the situation and everyone seemed clueless what they had done or what had happened to make him feel like that. There had been very little focus on the barbarian with everyone had been mostly concentrated on the horizon walker and his over 100-minute duel with the Banshrae. We had been generally laughing about stuff, just general stuff, but nothing specific or major. I didn't say anything, but I was glad that he wanted to quit the game, but I didn't want him to be sad or hurt. When he came back, two of the players spoke to him in the kindest way imaginable and they sincerely apologized him... but they also wanted him to continue, which made me cringe. He said that he wasn't happy with us and that he didn't think the game was entertaining anymore.

After the session, one of the players called me and urged me to kick him out. There wasn't any backstabbing there, he just said that he couldn't play if he couldn't laugh freely in the game with him around. I contacted the angry player, and it was really difficult for me... The first thing he told me that he could come again if "the group dynamics were fixed and Heval could assign roles and duties to each PC" (a direct quote). And told him that he was my friend and that I liked him a lot, but his D&D was over. He accepted this without saying much.

So now I have three players. This player was with us for about two years or more and I really hated playing with him, I really did, and having other players to try to change his mind was just damn awful. They managed to do that, in fact, which just made things more difficult for me.

[Keltest]

Oof. Yeah, getting tough with friends is always a rough time. From the sound of things though, it was mutual.

Still though, I cant possibly imagine what this guy was hoping to accomplish here. If nothing else, it has to be the other players who put him in charge of the group, the DM cant force them to do it.

[Florian]

That reads like he wanted to a) be in charge of the group and b) have his character garner most of the respect for it.

[Blu]

When DMing is best to impartial about stuff, even if he is your friend, his character is not. Unless the party ageed on it, no one is the leader and no one should even try to lead, assign roles or give orders. I think you could give us more backstory because it feels there is some information missing.

You should talk to the barbarian player to understand his point of view about being laugh stock.

And about his roleplay, with seems to be what troubled you. Was it a toxic, anti-teamwork or problematic roleplay? If so, did you guys try to talk to him about it?

[Grim Reader]

Well, from your last thread on this group, and the Hellcat encounter, its been coming for some time. This was the guy who just couldn't be bothered to engage, right?

[Jon_Dahl]

When DMing is best to impartial about stuff, even if he is your friend, his character is not. Unless the party ageed on it, no one is the leader and no one should even try to lead, assign roles or give orders. I think you could give us more backstory because it feels there is some information missing.


He had been the sole survivor of a fight in which he had run away leaving the previous PCs die. Now he decided to be the leader of "newbies" since he had been a long-standing member of the Guild and the new PCs had just joined.


And about his roleplay, with seems to be what troubled you. Was it a toxic, anti-teamwork or problematic roleplay? If so, did you guys try to talk to him about it?

Sometimes (quite often) he didn't listen to me. When I was explaining something, he was asking if we could just get forward with the story. However, when the story moved to the next phase, he didn't know what he was doing because he hadn't listened to me. This wasn't a major problem, because the rest of the group almost always understood what was going on. For instance, this one time they had been assigned to investigate the slaughter of all the inhabitants of a small village. He and other PCs went there and I described all the bodies, several dozens of them, all smelling and hundreds of birds eating their corpses. He asked me where the inn was and I told him. He was disappointed not to receive any service (the innkeeper had been killed along with his family). I have plenty of these stories, plenty. Also, he never learned the rules. He actually never learned to play D&D, as in the game mechanics, and he refused to write stuff down. He usually calculated the attack modifier of his main weapon every session and he always, every time, had problems telling how much he had inflicted damage. He showed disregard to the story, he showed disregard to my apartment (he left trash around) and he was rude to me. He wanted to eat some buns yesterday with his coffee, so I gave him some buns. "Please" was never part of his vocabulary. So he ate the buns, I hope he liked them. It was always important to have buns in the game, but he never bought any. I always felt that buns were more important than the game world.

I had told him about all this a couple of times, but he simply refused to listen. Usually he just snickered and rolled his eyes, and I just couldn't talk to him more about these things.

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, from your last thread on this group, and the Hellcat encounter, its been coming for some time. This was the guy who just couldn't be bothered to engage, right?

He was the Dwarven Defender in that encounter, it was his last character that actually did stuff (eg. fighting).

[Blu]

He had been the sole survivor of a fight in which he had run away leaving the previous PCs die. Now he decided to be the leader of "newbies" since he had been a long-standing member of the Guild and the new PCs had just joined.

D*** move... really d*** move to run away and left your friends to die :(




Sometimes (quite often) he didn't listen to me. When I was explaining something, he was asking if we could just get forward with the story. However, when the story moved to the next phase, he didn't know what he was doing because he hadn't listened to me. This wasn't a major problem, because the rest of the group almost always understood what was going on. For instance, this one time they had been assigned to investigate the slaughter of all the inhabitants of a small village. He and other PCs went there and I described all the bodies, several dozens of them, all smelling and hundreds of birds eating their corpses. He asked me where the inn was and I told him. He was disappointed not to receive any service (the innkeeper had been killed along with his family). I have plenty of these stories, plenty. Also, he never learned the rules. He actually never learned to play D&D, as in the game mechanics, and he refused to write stuff down. He usually calculated the attack modifier of his main weapon every session and he always, every time, had problems telling how much he had inflicted damage. He showed disregard to the story, he showed disregard to my apartment (he left trash around) and he was rude to me. He wanted to eat some buns yesterday with his coffee, so I gave him some buns. "Please" was never part of his vocabulary. So he ate the buns, I hope he liked them. It was always important to have buns in the game, but he never bought any. I always felt that buns were more important than the game world.

I had told him about all this a couple of times, but he simply refused to listen. Usually he just snickered and rolled his eyes, and I just couldn't talk to him more about these things.

Well, i was thinking it was just the case of a bad character, but from your description he sounds like a bad player also. Disregard for the system, world and even the DM is not something one should look kindly upon. By this aditional info i think your decision was right, if he was not contributing to the fun, even worse, he was hampering it.

Migh also add i have a similar problem at the table i'm DMing right now where a very close friend brought a completly brute barbarian to the table that as already threatened the NPC who hired them, one of the PC's and tought about killing the kobold wizard of the party, with little provocation i might add, more because of "IM THE MIGHTY BARBARIAN AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN AND NOT QUESTION ME", besides disregard for the story and world and roleplay of the others players. Since the table is in it's first sessions, i will see if this behaviour continues and i will try to talk to him.

Anyway, it happens. And since you even tryed to talk to him about it, there's nothing more you can do.

[Psyren]

Just as no game beats bad game, no player beats bad player.

Having said that:


The barbarian, who could've easily smashed through Banshrae's DR10/cold iron, went to build a bonfire outdoors and smoke it out, even though the wind wasn't right.

I don't know this guy obviously, so he might be a tool, but this seemed like a creative solution. Why not let it work? Clearly fighting that thing in close quarters wasn't accomplishing much. Granted, he'd have smoked his allies out too, but if the end result was that they could fight this thing outside and surround it, the combat would have been much shorter and the players would feel like they had more agency.

EDIT: From the other quote it definitely seems like he's a tool, so there's that.


The fight took over 2 hours, because party's horizon walker engaged it in the corridor and the two party clerics couldn't do much, especially since one of them had silenced the whole place.

Your players should know that, while you can indeed Silence a "place," you almost never should. Casting it on a small object (like a rock or an arrow) accomplishes the same effect, but with the added bonus that you can stow the item (blocking line of effect from it) and therefore shut off the emanation anytime you want without ending the spell. You can also throw the item at a target (like a distant spellcaster's square) and thus interfere with their magic while being free to cast and speak yourself.

Sidenote: Anyone ever notice that Silence is dismissible, but has a verbal component? Thus if you're inside it, you can't actually dismiss it (which requires speaking an altered form of the verbal component. Is that dysfunctional?)

[Blu]

My hunger compels me to ask, what kind of buns? :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Sidenote: Anyone ever notice that Silence is dismissible, but has a verbal component? Thus if you're inside it, you can't actually dismiss it (which requires speaking an altered form of the verbal component. Is that dysfunctional?)

While I was unaware that dismissing a spell required the same components (I assume not counting material?) as casting it, this isn't a dysfunction even if so, because being able to dismiss it from outside its effect is still useful.

[EldritchWeaver]

I had told him about all this a couple of times, but he simply refused to listen. Usually he just snickered and rolled his eyes, and I just couldn't talk to him more about these things.

I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have tolerated something like that for 2 years. You must be a saint.

[Psyren]

While I was unaware that dismissing a spell required the same components (I assume not counting material?) as casting it, this isn't a dysfunction even if so, because being able to dismiss it from outside its effect is still useful.

I think it only requires a verbal component, and then only if the original spell had one. If it didn't, you can dismiss it "with a gesture", which implies somatic, but the gesture apparently isn't required if you use the verbal...

It's confusing, in other words :smalltongue:

I personally think a far more elegant approach for WotC would have been to make Silence somatic-only. Not only would this avoid problems of being suppressed by the very spell you're trying to get rid of, it would also make Silence more useful to cast in the first place, e.g. for infiltration. If you want to sneak around, needing to make a loud noise before you can use the spell that prevents you from making loud noises seems counterintuitive is all.

[TheIronGolem]

I personally think a far more elegant approach for WotC would have been to make Silence somatic-only.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ed96499825b017b29d4a7eda8ad7e269/tumblr_modzihZ60g1qahcb6o4_500.gif

[KillianHawkeye]

I have to ask: Is there some reason why the quest rewards were not being offered by the NPCs? Were the PCs just taking up new quests without reporting that the old ones had been finished or something? Were the NPCs jerks who were trying to weasel out of paying the rewards by just not mentioning it again? I'm kind of with the player on that singular point. :smallconfused:

[Stealth Marmot]

Just remember: At least you didn't have to call the police.


Other PCs urged him to collect the reward that had been promised to them, but he refused by saying that the reward should be offered to him without asking.


...I'm not even angry, just confused. Is this some sort of messed up cultural concept?

[Ruslan]

Sounds like he was just suffering from a case of burnout. It's a good thing you cut him loose. Perhaps he'll come back some day, once he blew off some steam. Or not.

[NOhara24]

-snip-



Holy crap my patience for this guy would have run out a long time ago. You'll find that having 3 players whom you actually enjoy playing with is much more desirable than having a "full party" at any cost. Honestly, I'm surprised you went two years without losing someone. Whenever I get a party together for a campaign I tell them to have a backup in mind - someone that they'd like to replace one of them if they have to drop because life steps in or for whatever reason. Both times I've run campaigns (first took two years to finish, second is going into it's 14th session - we play weekly.) I've started with a full party and lost a player, and guess what? After they get replaced, I find I don't miss the player who had to leave.

While I understand your distress over this, your next session will be better simply because this toxic player isn't there.

[Jon_Dahl]

I have to ask: Is there some reason why the quest rewards were not being offered by the NPCs? Were the PCs just taking up new quests without reporting that the old ones had been finished or something? Were the NPCs jerks who were trying to weasel out of paying the rewards by just not mentioning it again? I'm kind of with the player on that singular point. :smallconfused:

It's because they are still rising up the ranks in the Guild. I present the Guild as a massive multinational organization where singular quests and adventurers often fade in the background. They are all journeymen, which makes them semi-important. The barbarian was very close to become a master, which would have meant a serious shift in focus, highlighting the character.

[Jon_Dahl]

I've started with a full party and lost a player, and guess what? After they get replaced, I find I don't miss the player who had to leave.

While I understand your distress over this, your next session will be better simply because this toxic player isn't there.

Thank you, I'm certain that it will be like this :)

Some of you have been wondering why I tolerated that player for this long. Here's the explanation, but it's so bad that it's behind spoiler tags.


1. One of the players always carpooled with him.
2. This annoying player was always available, every single time, so I could always count on him to come.
3. I was absolutely certain that he would become a "super player" and very interesting in the game over time. He never improved, not even a bit, and he seemed to lose interest over time.
4. I kind of felt sorry for him and other players seemed sympathetic towards him, as you can see from the OP.

[Keltest]

It's because they are still rising up the ranks in the Guild. I present the Guild as a massive multinational organization where singular quests and adventurers often fade in the background. They are all journeymen, which makes them semi-important. The barbarian was very close to become a master, which would have meant a serious shift in focus, highlighting the character.

That doesn't really answer the question. Presumably a reward was agreed upon prior to the taking up of the contract, since this seems to be a professional organization. Why didn't the clients come forth with the promised rewards on their own initiative?

[Remuko]

Idk what your plan is if you have one but I'd turn his Barb into a DMNPC now instead of retconning things and have him continue a similar role to what he was supposed to be doing before. Give them the rewards for the past quests, claim he "forgot" and have him apologize, and have him say that since they have been doing so well he wants them to start trying to go on missions without him. He can still give them quests and make sure they get paid etc without assisting them directly in the missions and they can learn to be less reliant on him. Give them slightly easier missions if you think it needed. I think they will end up having a lot of fun this way without the plot/story/backstory needing to be changed due to the player being gone.

[Grim Reader]

And for Gods sake use normal character generation rules from now on!

[Jon_Dahl]

That doesn't really answer the question. Presumably a reward was agreed upon prior to the taking up of the contract, since this seems to be a professional organization. Why didn't the clients come forth with the promised rewards on their own initiative?

Because the missions end when the adventurers say that they are finished (proof needed, possibly). The barbarian never said that they had completed missions, so no rewards were given. The guild would have eventually asked them what was going with this journeyman group with four or more ongoing missions (they have two ongoing mission at the moment).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why on Eru's good Middle-Earth would you, as melee specialist, try to smoke out a fast, strong, intelligent enemy? With the rest of the party also being affected? And then, having definitively proven your incompetence, ask to be put in actual OOC charge of everyone else, as if it was everyone else's fault you did absolutely nothing useful?

Seems that you did the reasonable thing, Jon, hard though it may have been.

[Calthropstu]

D*** move... really d*** move to run away and left your friends to die :(





Well, i was thinking it was just the case of a bad character, but from your description he sounds like a bad player also. Disregard for the system, world and even the DM is not something one should look kindly upon. By this aditional info i think your decision was right, if he was not contributing to the fun, even worse, he was hampering it.

Migh also add i have a similar problem at the table i'm DMing right now where a very close friend brought a completly brute barbarian to the table that as already threatened the NPC who hired them, one of the PC's and tought about killing the kobold wizard of the party, with little provocation i might add, more because of "IM THE MIGHTY BARBARIAN AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN AND NOT QUESTION ME", besides disregard for the story and world and roleplay of the others players. Since the table is in it's first sessions, i will see if this behaviour continues and i will try to talk to him.

Anyway, it happens. And since you even tryed to talk to him about it, there's nothing more you can do.

To be fair, he probably dumped charisma and that WOULD be playing dumped charisma...

[Elysiume]

Also, assuming it's a dead-end cave, air generally doesn't readily flow into a cave. There are some climate situations that can cause it, but it's generally dependent on the air density gradient. I wonder if he made a knowledge (dungeoneering) or knowledge (nature) check to figure out whether trying to get smoke into a cave from outside would work.

That said, it sucks to lose a player, but it sounds like everyone's better off. You don't need to deal with a toxic player, the other players don't have to deal with someone trying to hog the limelight, and the toxic player doesn't have to play a game that it seems like he no longer enjoys. I like the DM PC idea, especially the part about having him send the group out on their own, and effectively having them graduate from his tutelage.

[Barstro]

The barbarian was very close to become a master, which would have meant a serious shift in focus, highlighting the character.

This quote, alone, gives credence to the barbarian's desire to be able to tell the other characters what to do. I could chalk that up to decent roleplaying. I can also ignore the fact that the character ran away and allowed the rest of the team to die if is was all in-character. I fear I may have to do that myself at some point, despite my attempts to get the entire part to use real plans instead of "if the DM gave us an obstacle, we must be able to fight it".

However, everything else described suggests that this possible decent roleplaying was just a statistical anomaly and the player is really just someone who doesn't want to be part of a team. Assuming your version of events is accurate, you held on for a very long time. I hope your group is better both for the experience and cutting of deadwood.

[Blu]

To be fair, he probably dumped charisma and that WOULD be playing dumped charisma...

Sad part is i used a fairly generous point buy(40 points, actually) with some rules that prevented them from completly dumping something.

And that kind of roleplay was not very good for the kind of campaign i'm going for, it's just anti-teamwork and is not very creative to bring one of those brute stereotypical barbarians.

It really makes it hard on me to DM and it can kill your good will to DM at some times. Also the fact that he already tried to impose rules on me and other players.

[Manyasone]

Also, Jon, respectfully, since I don't know the guy. A 'friend' that treats you and yours like that... He isn't a friend, but a leech

[Elysiume]

This quote, alone, gives credence to the barbarian's desire to be able to tell the other characters what to do. I could chalk that up to decent roleplaying.I'd agree if it was an IC motivation, but it seems like it was heavily bleeding into OOC motivation. It's fine for your character to want to boss other characters around, but it sounded like the player wanted to boss other players around.

[Pugwampy]

I dunno about better no game than a bad game .

I kicked out two people in my career and in both instances that ended the whole game with a one or two year "rest" period

How can you ask someone to choose between his best beer buddy friend and DND ?

Its the outsider who pays the price not the guy getting kicked .

A warning to all DM,s who want to flex their "responsible" muscles . Make sure you are not the outsider or lowest on the food chain .
This is a social gathering which means its popularity constest:smallfrown:

[Barstro]

I'd agree if it was an IC motivation, but it seems like it was heavily bleeding into OOC motivation. It's fine for your character to want to boss other characters around, but it sounded like the player wanted to boss other players around.

It's as if you took the second half of my post, rearranged the words, and posted it as your own. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Because the missions end when the adventurers say that they are finished (proof needed, possibly). The barbarian never said that they had completed missions, so no rewards were given. The guild would have eventually asked them what was going with this journeyman group with four or more ongoing missions (they have two ongoing mission at the moment).

So wait, he literally never reported in back to the client? And he was about to get promoted?!

[Ettina]

Where's the other thread about this group that you guys are referring to?

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion: go to some of your local gaming stores, and see if you can put up a flyer.


Were you play. Information about the game. Mention that interested parties have one slot open at the moment. What style of game and players you have and what you feel would be compatible with it. And then your Email or some way to get in touch with you.



Might help to round out the group now and have done with it.

[SecretlyaFish]

Suggestion: go to some of your local gaming stores, and see if you can put up a flyer.

Don't overdo it though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP3GYdrW450