How specific do a Readied action and its trigger need to be?

[heavyfuel]

Say you're expecting a spellcaster to cast a spell (duh). But hey, you won the initiative, so you get to go first, and you can ready an action to interrupt him!

So you tell your DM: "I'm using my standard action to ready. If he does anything regarded as offensive, I'm casting a spell"

Now, if your opponent does start casting a spell, you can interrupt him with a damaging spell, or counterspell, or silence, or whatever.
But if he decides to attack you instead, you can cast a defensive spell or something else.


The point is, is this rules legal? And would allow it as DM?
Or should the readied action and trigger be very specific? (eg: if he casts a spell, I'm casting Silence on him)

IMO, this scenario with overly specific requirements not only make Readied actions barely usable, but also make little sense, as you shouldn't be put at a disadvantage for trying to fight strategically (remember that you lose your action if he doesn't cast a spell in this scenario).

[Ashtagon]

Way I play it you can specify your readied action trigger as broad or as narrow as you like, as long as it is baseductive on triggers you can actually perceive.

If the readied action is triggered but you suddenly don't want to follow through, it's a dc 15 level check modified by wisdom to stop yourself.

If your trigger was based on a specific individual doing something and they end up not doing that thing, you can make a similar check to take your action freely after their turn.

If your trigger was not based on a specific individual (when an orc opens that door...) you're out of luck if it was never triggered.

[flappeercraft]

Well I would allow it although you can make it something else as the trigger. For example "I ready my action so that if I see any movement from his part I can cast a spell" is pretty specifc, if he moves at all such as to attack, move or cast (Unless he is a psionic character or is using Still spell or similar things) then you get your readied action but about what action you take then I would allow you to choose whatever you want on the spot

[Ashtagon]

Well I would allow it although you can make it something else as the trigger. For example "I ready my action so that if I see any movement from his part I can cast a spell" is pretty specifc, if he moves at all such as to attack, move or cast (Unless he is a psionic character or is using Still spell or similar things) then you get your readied action but about what action you take then I would allow you to choose whatever you want on the spot

It sounds like what you are looking for here is to combine the benefits of readied action and delayed action.

[KillianHawkeye]

I prefer the more specific version. IMO, the whole reason you can do an action on a moment's notice is because you got yourself ready to do that action.

[bekeleven]

"I'll cast a spell when" is not nearly specific enough at any table I know.

The trigger can be somewhat general, so long as the action is specific.

[heavyfuel]

I decided to take a look at Rules Compendium (please, let's not argue the validity of the book here). Specifically, the sidebar at pg.110 gives me the impression that you can be as broad or as specific as you want, as long as you deal with consequences of maybe acting when you didn't really want to.



Think of a ready action like a basic computer program: if this happens, then this occurs. [...] If you’re not specific enough with your proposed ready action, then your result might not be exactly what you hoped for. And if you’re too specific, the condition might not be met and you’ve lost a round’s worth of actions.

[heavyfuel]

"I'll cast a spell when" is not nearly specific enough at any table I know.

The trigger can be somewhat general, so long as the action is specific.

Then counterspelling without Dispell Magic makes no sense, as you need to cast a specifc spell to counter the original (Fireball vs Fireball; Haste vs Slow; etc). But first you need to identify the spell being cast with spellcraft, and THEN counter it. So saying "I will cast a spell if X happens" seems perfectly fine

[Khedrac]

I would require you to specify which spell you intend to cast as your readied action.

On the other hand, I would allow you to ready to cast the specified spell if any of the opponenets begin to cast a spell, not just a specific target.

I certainly would never force you to take a readied action if you don't want to when the trigger happens (indeed, if someone else then also triggers you again get the choice - act or hold ready). There's an OoTS cartoon in one of the bookthat covers why the ruyles don't require you to take a readied action...

[heavyfuel]

I would require you to specify which spell you intend to cast as your readied action.

On the other hand, I would allow you to ready to cast the specified spell if any of the opponenets begin to cast a spell, not just a specific target.

I certainly would never force you to take a readied action if you don't want to when the trigger happens (indeed, if someone else then also triggers you again get the choice - act or hold ready). There's an OoTS cartoon in one of the bookthat covers why the ruyles don't require you to take a readied action...

Having to specify what spell will be cast makes no sense, as I posted above. It makes counterspelling dysfunctional as you need to first identify the spell being cast by the opponent (a fact that happens after you've readied) and then cast your spell to counter his.

[Khedrac]

Having to specify what spell will be cast makes no sense, as I posted above. It makes counterspelling dysfunctional as you need to first identify the spell being cast by the opponent (a fact that happens after you've readied) and then cast your spell to counter his.

In that case I would allow readying "to counterspell" - which would be the spell if you have it and dispel if not.

The problem with a general ready of "cast a spell" is the intent of the readied action isn't defined if you allow a choice of "wall spell to block LoE", "damage spell to interrupt", "silence spell to stop other casters too", "teleport to get us out of the way" etc. as all possible actions from the same readied action.

It all comes down to the DM's rulling on how specific "specify an action" has to be. Counterspelling is specifically listed as an example of what you can do (so yes, I should have thought of that in my first post), and whilst you could cast any spell, the action carried out is very specific.

[Bucky]

Which of the following would fly in your opinion?

1) "I ready an action to move to the middle square of the bridge when the pikeman steps onto the far square of the bridge."
2) "I ready an action to move to intercept the first enemy that moves towards us."
3) "I ready an action to move when an enemy approaches."
4) "I ready an action to move when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them."
5) "I ready an action to do something when the pikeman takes his standard action."
6) "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman takes a move action or tries to end his turn."

I would allow everything except 5 and 6 - 'do something' is too vague an action, but they don't need to specify where they move. Meanwhile, being unable to react to an end-of-turn is disallowed by the fourth wall - the characters aren't aware of the specifics of turn structure and can't react to a non-event. They can use both broad and complex triggers.

Furthermore, in case 1, I would allow the player to change their mind and move to a different square when their readied action triggers.

[heavyfuel]

In that case I would allow readying "to counterspell" - which would be the spell if you have it and dispel if not.

The problem with a general ready of "cast a spell" is the intent of the readied action isn't defined if you allow a choice of "wall spell to block LoE", "damage spell to interrupt", "silence spell to stop other casters too", "teleport to get us out of the way" etc. as all possible actions from the same readied action.

It all comes down to the DM's rulling on how specific "specify an action" has to be. Counterspelling is specifically listed as an example of what you can do (so yes, I should have thought of that in my first post), and whilst you could cast any spell, the action carried out is very specific.

I understand doing that for balance reasons, but from a "number of actions" perspective, I say it makes no sense.

Would you allow maybe two specific spells?

Say "If he casts a spell, I silence him , but if he attacks, I cast mage armor"


Which of the following would fly in your opinion?

1) "I ready an action to move to the middle square of the bridge when the pikeman steps onto the far square of the bridge."
2) "I ready an action to move to intercept the first enemy that moves towards us."
3) "I ready an action to move when an enemy approaches."
4) "I ready an action to move when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them."
5) "I ready an action to do something when the pikeman takes his standard action."
6) "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman takes a move action or tries to end his turn."

I would allow everything except 5 and 6 - 'do something' is too vague an action, but they don't need to specify where they move. Meanwhile, being unable to react to an end-of-turn is disallowed by the fourth wall - the characters aren't aware of the specifics of turn structure and can't react to a non-event. They can use both broad and complex triggers.

Furthermore, in case 1, I would allow the player to change their mind and move to a different square when their readied action triggers.

I'd only disallow 6 for the same reasons you presented. 5 for me is OK, as long as the player is aware that some actions which are normally standard actions can be taken using different actions (with Quicken Spell, for example)

[Ashtagon]

Which of the following would fly in your opinion?

1) "I ready an action to move to the middle square of the bridge when the pikeman steps onto the far square of the bridge."
2) "I ready an action to move to intercept the first enemy that moves towards us."
3) "I ready an action to move when an enemy approaches."
4) "I ready an action to move when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them."
5) "I ready an action to do something when the pikeman takes his standard action."
6) "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman takes a move action or tries to end his turn."

I would allow everything except 5 and 6 - 'do something' is too vague an action, but they don't need to specify where they move. Meanwhile, being unable to react to an end-of-turn is disallowed by the fourth wall - the characters aren't aware of the specifics of turn structure and can't react to a non-event. They can use both broad and complex triggers.

Furthermore, in case 1, I would allow the player to change their mind and move to a different square when their readied action triggers.

In my opinion...

:smallcool:#1 and :smallcool:#2 are fine, since you are specifying what your action is.

:smallfurious:#3 would need to specify where you intend to move to. It could be to/from a specific object/structure, to/from a specific person, to/from a specific direction, but something that can be objectively described. As written, I would not accept it.

:smallfurious:#4 is a definite no-go, but only because the action to be performed is unspecified. The trigger itself is perfectly valid, but also so easily-triggered that it most situations it would not be desirable.

:smallfurious:#5 is also a no-go, again because "do something" is not a specific action. You also can't "see" a "standard action".

:smallfurious:#6 is not okay. You can't "see" a move action. You can see specific things that consume a move action, but a move action itself is not a visible thing.

In cases #5 and #6, you could specify "does something that would require a standard (or move) action. However, that would be left untriggered if, for example, they chose to use that action on something not directly observable as requiring the action (such as simply standing still).

Essentially, the following rules apply:

"move" has to specify what you are going to or from. You can't just leave it as "move".

"attack" needs to specify what weapon you are using, and you should also specify a target. That might be a location in the case of a grenade-like weapon, and even for melee weapons, it doesn't have to be a specific known person at the time you ready the action. "I ready an action to attack the next orc to come through that door" is perfectly fine, even though you haven't seen that orc yet.

"cast a spell" needs to specify a spell and a target where applicable. As a slight exception to specifying what spell, if your ready action is "counter the spell", you need not specify your own spell in advance (it's fixed at whatever the other guy cast or dispel magic; the overall intended action is specified tightly, even though the resource used is not).

The trigger itself can be ridiculously loose or ridiculously tight. How tight or loose depends on how much of a compromise the player wants to make between risking not having their readied action be triggered and risking having it be triggered by an irrelevance.

[Bucky]

The idea behind #4 is that you move adjacent to the enemy before they take the action, then get an AoO when they follow through with it; it would work just as well 90% of the time if it specified moving adjacent to the enemy. This is one of the standard ready-action judo maneuvers.

[Ashtagon]

The idea behind #4 is that you move adjacent to the enemy before they take the action, then get an AoO when they follow through with it; it would work just as well 90% of the time if it specified moving adjacent to the enemy. This is one of the standard ready-action judo maneuvers.

Well, if it were specified as "I ready an action to move adjacent to that enemy when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them", I would allow it.

I suppose in some ways it is a bit sleazy. But otoh, a decent staggered pattern of enemies followed by the rear guy triggering your action can result in you getting aoo-ed. And possibly important, an enemy simply moving wouldn't trigger this, since it is perfectly possible for him to move and not trigger a hypothetical aoo from a guy who is threatening him. Finally, since a ready action consumes your standard action, using it to move next to an enemy so you can have an aoo trigger isn't actually going to increase your attacks per round; you've still spent your standard action that round.

[Telok]

Which of the following would fly in your opinion?

1) "I ready an action to move to the middle square of the bridge when the pikeman steps onto the far square of the bridge."
2) "I ready an action to move to intercept the first enemy that moves towards us."
3) "I ready an action to move when an enemy approaches."
4) "I ready an action to move when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them."
5) "I ready an action to do something when the pikeman takes his standard action."
6) "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman takes a move action or tries to end his turn.

For #3 and #4 I'd want a direction for the character to move. Not a specific spot, but at least a direction like 'towards', 'away', or 'through the space he left'. Then, depending on distance and number of opponents I may call for one or more Spot checks on #4.

#5 and #6 push the metagame a bit too much for my preference. I'd ask for clarification on the action to be taken, cast, flee, dance, etc. I'd also explain that "takes his standard action" to me sounds like "does anything but move or talk". On #6 in specific "tries to end his turn" is a no-go and "a move action" needs to be more specific because of all the different things that it can be used for. What I would allow there would be something like "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman moves or does X or person Y acts." Which gives two possible action triggers and tells me that you're paying close enough attention to know who goes next in initiative order.

Personally I tend to declare readied actions as a relatively specific action (for casting spells I pick a spell or dispell/counterspell even though I may not tell the DM which spell I'm readying) and a trigger that my character can relatively easily perceive. Things like casts, moves, does anything but move, enters/leaves line of sight, "charges or approaches", "draws a weapon or magic item". Which means that on occasion I have passed a turn or shot arrows at illusions, but that's appropriate for readied actions.

I also definitely allow the person readying to choose to do an interruption, simultaneous action, or act immediately after the trigger. It does need to be declared which one they're doing, but I do allow pausing an interrupt or simultaneous until immediately after as an on-the-fly choice. My games also have the "abort to dodge" immediate action which puts the character up to Dex score feet away from current position, prone, and lose your next standard action but gain +2 dodge AC until then. That can be used to negate your own readied action.

[Khedrac]

1) "I ready an action to move to the middle square of the bridge when the pikeman steps onto the far square of the bridge."
Fine.
2) "I ready an action to move to intercept the first enemy that moves towards us."
Fine.
3) "I ready an action to move when an enemy approaches."
Too general - need to be more specific about where you will move and what you mean by "approaches".
4) "I ready an action to move when an enemy within 35' does anything that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if I were threatening them."
As with Ashtagon, as is "no", but with your clarification then "yes".
5) "I ready an action to do something when the pikeman takes his standard action."
No - You need to say what you will do and also see below
6) "I ready an action to cast Grease when the pikeman takes a move action or tries to end his turn."
You can't use metagame terms for the ready, but you can use broad tems like "acts" or "perofrms a hostile action" or "does something other than move".

In general I think I agree with Ashtagon, except I probably would not allow changing where to move to in 1 (except to stop somewhere between start location and stated destination).

[KillianHawkeye]

For those triggering conditions listed as "when an enemy approaches", I would want at least a ballpark estimate for how close they'd need to come before the readied action is taken.