Providing out-of-combat healing to a party with little healing abilities

[Rysto]

Heroes of the Taisha players, please stay out of this thread. Thanks.

I'm DM'ing a PbP game here and I'm finding that the party is bleeding HP quite quickly. The party is all level 5, and consists of an EK Fighter, a Hunter Ranger, an Open-Hand Monk and a GOO Warlock. The party has very little by the way of healing abilities -- the Ranger has Cure Wounds, and that's it -- and so far they seem to be running out of steam rather quickly.

For example, the second encounter of the adventuring day (which followed a short rest) was a Hard one by the DMG, and two of the PCs nearly dropped (one was reduced to 3HP and the other to 7HP). At this point I offered them a choice, they could rest overnight and take a short rest (I'm using a modified version of Gritty Realism variant rules for rests), or they could take 2 Greater Healing potions and press on. They chose to press on, and the Ranger spent 3 slots of cure wounds, which brought the 2 PCs nearly back to full.

The third encounter was rated Medium, and it reduced one PC to 10HP and another to 12HP. At this point they'll take a short rest, but I'm concerned about the trend. It feels to me that the party is going to keep running out of steam early. I'm considering whether I should provide the party with a source of out-of-combat healing. I want it to be some kind of resource that the party has to manage, rather than me providing free potions as the party needs via DM fiat.

One thing that I'm considering is using the Healing Surges variant rule from the DMG. Another option would be for me to provide more potions, but on a fairly predictable schedule based on their rests.

My first question is, am I right to be concerned about how much damage my PCs are taking? Is this normal, or should I be taking a second look at how I'm rating the encounters?

My second question is, should I provide a limited source of out-of-combat healing to my PCs? Any recommendations on what form this should take?

[Specter]

Well, seems to me Gritty Realism is your biggest problem. But I don't think you're gonna change that.

It all depends on the daily number of encounters: if it's one giant encounter, then if they're all alive you're good to go. But if you're planning around three, having them totally banged after the first one is harsh. Worse, the ranger's combat capacity diminishes every time he uses healing spells (he realizes Goodberry can cure more HP than Cure Wounds, right?). You should gear the fights down a bit and see what happens.

I'd just arrange an item or a magic boon that will give him them some HP (spreadable) every day, then recharge after every dawn. Something like a saint's statue or a magic mineral.

[Dalebert]

Healing is pretty weak in this edition. There was a design choice to make dedicated healers unnecessary and let clerics be more interesting. Thus healing spells are pretty weak--mainly for in-combat to get a fallen ally back up or to buy maybe another round before someone would go down. Most healing is intended to happen via short rests.

[Kane0]

UA had a nice healing salve thing that the ranger got, you could try giving that ability to one of the characters.
Also perhaps consider the ability to spend a hit die (or a couple, up to Prof bonus) when treated with a healing kit (and a successful medicine check) once per short rest.

[nickl_2000]

Why not have them steal an Alchemist Artificers Satchel (from unearthed arcana) that has lost some of it's magic due to being separated from the Artificer. It allows 1 healing draught to be pulled out at a time, the draught heals 1d8 health (3rd level 2d8, 5th level 3d8, 7th level 4d8, and onwards... see UA). A character can only gain health from the draught once per long rest, and the draught spoils after 1 hour.

This gives them some extra healing, but limits it to only 3d8 per character per day and prevents them from stockpiling the draughts during off time.

[Demonslayer666]

I would consider some or all of the following:

dialing back the encounters (frequency and/or potency)
giving out more healing potions
allowing them to create healing potions (ranger foraging)
allow first aid to heal 1d4 hp per day (DC 15 medicine check)
pay for healing at a shrine/temple


I would also encourage one of them to multiclass into healing, or reroll a character.

As a side note, I don't really see this as a bad thing. If they want to press on until they can't any more, then they will end up being forced into a long rest to heal up.

[Herobizkit]

Are the players complaining about their lack of healing?

If so, perhaps the players might look into doing something about it.

If not, when they die, they die - no risk, no reward.

[DanyBallon]

Is the EK using second wind? Are they all using HD to recover HP on a short rest? Did you let them get back all their HP after a long rest? Healing is easy to come by in 5e.

Gritty realism rest variant use the same rules as the normal rest variant except that it expand the time between rest. They shouldn't face more encounter over a week than you would face in a day with the base rules.

[Strill]

the Ranger spent 3 slots of cure wounds, which brought the 2 PCs nearly back to full.That is a gross mistake. Cure Wounds shouldn't be used except to bring back a player who's fallen to 0 HP. It's far more useful to cast Ensnaring Strike or Fog Cloud in order to make future encounters easier so that the party doesn't take damage in the first place.

Also, is the Monk using Stunning Strike? Because that one ability is way better than anything else you could spend ki on, and there's rarely a reason to use anything else.

[DanyBallon]

That is a gross mistake. Cure Wounds shouldn't be used except to bring back a player who's fallen to 0 HP. It's far more useful to cast Ensnaring Strike or Fog Cloud in order to make future encounters easier so that the party doesn't take damage in the first place.

Where in the rules is it said that Cure Wounds shouldn't be used except for brining back character at 0 HP? If the player felt that was the right thing to do at that moment, then he did right. Spells like all the features are options for the player to use. There is no right or wrong way to use them.

[Strill]

Where in the rules is it said that Cure Wounds shouldn't be used except for brining back character at 0 HP? If the player felt that was the right thing to do at that moment, then he did right. Spells like all the features are options for the player to use. There is no right or wrong way to use them.

It's wrong because you can prevent far more damage to your party by using your spell slots to control the enemy or to defeat them sooner. If you think there's no right or wrong way to use them, you're willfully ignorant.

I can even demonstrate. You're fighting a group of Orcs. Do you cast Sleep, or do you cast Scorching Ray?

Scorching Ray will probably have around a +6 to hit vs 13 AC, and 3 attacks of 2d6 damage, giving it an average of 13.7 damage. An Orc, however, has 15 HP, which means that your Scorching Ray has less than a 50% chance to kill a single Orc.

If you instead cast Sleep, you could remove that orc from the fight with a 94% chance, and be able to easily dispatch it at no cost to your party after the other Orcs are taken care of.

So I've mathematically proven that Sleep is the better spell in that situation, regardless of what any given player might choose. Not only is it more effective, but it is also less costly since it is a 1st-level spell, while Scorching Ray is 2nd-level.

[DanyBallon]

It's wrong because you can prevent far more damage to your party by using your spell slots to control the enemy or to defeat them sooner. If you think there's no right or wrong way to use them, you're willfully ignorant.

I can even demonstrate. You're fighting a group of Orcs. Do you cast Sleep, or do you cast Scorching Ray?

Scorching Ray is a 2nd-level spell. With a +6 to hit vs 13 AC, and 3 attacks of 2d6 damage, it does an average of 13.7 damage. An Orc, however, has 15 HP, which means that your Scorcing Ray has less than a 50% chance to kill a single Orc.

If you instead cast Sleep, a 1st-level spell, you could remove that orc from the fight with a 94% chance, and be able to easily dispatch it after the other Orcs are taken care of.

So I've mathematically proven that Sleep is the better spell in that situation, regardless of what any given player might choose. Not only is it more effective, but it is also less costly.

You example proves only that if you're looking to be the most effective, casting sleep is better in this situation, but if the character is build around being a pyromaniac, then sleep would be no good for that player as it goes against what he wished for its character.

Being optimized is not a necessity nor a mean to all. Having fun is what is most important. If you're having fun playing optimized character then good for you, but not everyone enjoys the same when playing D&D and you have no right to tell them they are playing wrong because their preferences are not the same as yours.

[Strill]

You example proves only that if you're looking to be the most effective, casting sleep is better in this situation, but if the character is build around being a pyromaniac, then sleep would be no good for that player as it goes against what he wished for its character.

Being optimized is not a necessity nor a mean to all. Having fun is what is most important. If you're having fun playing optimized character then good for you, but not everyone enjoys the same when playing D&D and you have no right to tell them they are playing wrong because their preferences are not the same as yours.

The OP asked why the party was struggling. I gave one reason. Handicap your characters all you want, but don't expect that they'll survive.

[DanyBallon]

The OP asked why the party was struggling. I gave one reason. Handicap your characters all you want, but don't expect that they'll survive.

Unoptimized character can easily survive in 5e. But if they decide to push forward instead of taking a rest, if they forget to use some of their abilities, or if the DM forget that long rest heals all HP, those could all be plausible reason for the struggling.

What you did was not trying to help but telling them they were playing wrong...

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Unoptimized character can easily survive in 5e. But if they decide to push forward instead of taking a rest, if they forget to use some of their abilities, or if the DM forget that long rest heals all HP, those could all be plausible reason for the struggling.

What you did was not trying to help but telling them they were playing wrong...

He is using VARIANT LONG RESTS called gritty realism, he did not forget

[Arkhios]

I think the "healing surges" optional rule could be a solution, too. TL;DR (below): Basically means that players can spend their hit dice mid combat. But that's just scratching the surface; here's the detailed version of it:


Healing Surges
This optional rule allows characters to heal up in the thick of combat and works well for parties that feature few or no characters with healing magic, or for campaigns in which magical healing is rare.
As an action, a character can use a healing surge and spend up to half his or her Hit Dice. For each Hit Die spent in this way, the player rolls the die and adds the character's Constitution modifier. The character regains hit points equal to the total. The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll.

A character who uses a healing surge can't do so again until he or she finishes a short or long rest. Under this optional rule, a character regains all spent Hit Dice at the end of a long rest. With a short rest, a character regains Hit Dice equal to his or her level divided by four (minimum of one die). For a more superheroic feel, you can let a character use a healing surge as a bonus action, rather than as an action.

[Tetrasodium]

The third encounter was rated Medium, and it reduced one PC to 10HP and another to 12HP. At this point they'll take a short rest, but I'm concerned about the trend. It feels to me that the party is going to keep running out of steam early. I'm considering whether I should provide the party with a source of out-of-combat healing. I want it to be some kind of resource that the party has to manage, rather than me providing free potions as the party needs via DM fiat.

another easy suggestion would be to give a magic item that casts goodberry x/day or that allows the ranger to cast it with the benefit of the disciple of life feature when he casts goodberry (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015)

[Citan]

That is a gross mistake. Cure Wounds shouldn't be used except to bring back a player who's fallen to 0 HP. It's far more useful to cast Ensnaring Strike or Fog Cloud in order to make future encounters easier so that the party doesn't take damage in the first place.

Also, is the Monk using Stunning Strike? Because that one ability is way better than anything else you could spend ki on, and there's rarely a reason to use anything else.


It's wrong because you can prevent far more damage to your party by using your spell slots to control the enemy or to defeat them sooner. If you think there's no right or wrong way to use them, you're willfully ignorant.

I can even demonstrate. You're fighting a group of Orcs. Do you cast Sleep, or do you cast Scorching Ray?

Scorching Ray will probably have around a +6 to hit vs 13 AC, and 3 attacks of 2d6 damage, giving it an average of 13.7 damage. An Orc, however, has 15 HP, which means that your Scorching Ray has less than a 50% chance to kill a single Orc.

If you instead cast Sleep, you could remove that orc from the fight with a 94% chance, and be able to easily dispatch it at no cost to your party after the other Orcs are taken care of.

So I've mathematically proven that Sleep is the better spell in that situation, regardless of what any given player might choose. Not only is it more effective, but it is also less costly since it is a 1st-level spell, while Scorching Ray is 2nd-level.
Your arrogance really desserves your message.
And you have mathematically proven absolutely nothing.

You are putting as a certainty the fact that Sleep would... 1) Roll high enough 2) Affect the Orc only 3) Put it out of the fight long enough for this action to be worthwhile.
Barring the roll question (if Orc is alone, you'd indeed be incredibly lucky to roll less than 15 XD), just having either another enemy or worse, an ally in the area would drop the chance significantly. You'll say, and you are right, you have a good margin of manoeuver since it's 20 feet of a point you choose. But still, you may not always have a good spot to pick only the one creature you want.
Furthermore, if there is another enemy creature just after -or worse, just before- the enemy turn, it can easily wake it up, so it was of little utility. However, if you succeed and had several allies getting turns in between, then it was indeed a smart move, because first to attack will auto crit and others will still get advantage. Even a single ally could be worth if he has strong nova capability (Paladin, Rogue).

In the end, that makes for many requirements to fulfill for Sleep to be a good choice, that may or not be met in any given situation.
On the other hand, against the same Orc, bringing back a fellow Hunter / Fighter / Monk which turns comes before the Orc could be a safer shot. Depends on how accurate your comrade is, how much special abilities he has left, etc. For example, if a fellow Monk had some Ki left, he could try 3 attacks with Stunning Strike added. As long as one succeeds, the creature is effectively stunned for the whole round, no save (contrarily to Sleep).

So, no, to be blunt, if you really want to put a "willfully ignorant" tag on someone, look at the mirror. Because there is no reasonable way to judge whether a player's actions were good or bad choice without having the full context: character motivations, party composition, resources and abilities, battlemap and current enemies which the respective position of everyone... Which you(we) obviously don't have. And believing otherwise is blinding oneself to one's lack of insight.

Only thing everyone can agree on is that using healing resources to heal "beyond" just putting someone up is often -but not always- a waste of resources.
In this occurence, was the Ranger wrong to use Cure Wounds outside of fighting? How could we answer that? We don't know if the party had potions left, if they could have afforded to get a short rest (or maybe they didn't have hit die left), or if he had any good spell that could have been useful in the next encounter.
And running into a place where you know there will be another fight (but have no idea about which kind you'll get), with half of your party close to dead, when you know you could do something about it... That is usually not a good idea.

Back to OP...

Heroes of the Taisha players, please stay out of this thread. Thanks.

One thing that I'm considering is using the Healing Surges variant rule from the DMG. Another option would be for me to provide more potions, but on a fairly predictable schedule based on their rests.

My first question is, am I right to be concerned about how much damage my PCs are taking? Is this normal, or should I be taking a second look at how I'm rating the encounters?

My second question is, should I provide a limited source of out-of-combat healing to my PCs? Any recommendations on what form this should take?
I may be harsh but I'd say the problem lies mainly with you, if you are using the "normal" encounter rating while also making a Gritty Variant rest.
If you want to stay on course without adjusting neither though, you may...
- make them encounter a prisoner or other NPC of some kind who would reward them in potions, or accompany them and craft some healing on the way (provided the party gives him the proper materials). Or a mercenary goods merchant, no need for explanation (like in Resident Evil 4 XD).
- during one (long) downtime, make one of your party follow a hardship/quest to get a feat such as Healer, Inspiring Leader (this one probably too strong though).
- on the same line, have one of them undergo a special training just to learn the "Purify Food and Water" ritual, then have them scavenge some food as they progress. Forget that, incompatible with your rest variant, won't help.
- still on the same line, IF your Warlock player could be interested, craft him a special quest from his Patron that would, on success, grand him Healing Words or Goodberry spell.
- worst (more management for you, may be seen as an "intrusion" by your players), a NPC that is dedicated to healing.

[Strill]

Your arrogance really desserves your message.
And you have mathematically proven absolutely nothing.

You are putting as a certainty the fact that Sleep would... 1) Roll high enough 2) Affect the Orc only 3) Put it out of the fight long enough for this action to be worthwhile. 1. No I'm not assuming that I will roll high enough. I explicitly say in the post you quoted, that Sleep has a 94% chance of success. Double checking, I realize that that should be 96%. 2. The spell affecting only the Orc is something you have control over. Sleep has a long range, and you can place it wherever it will affect only enemies. 3. Sleep has a duration of 10 turns, and does not offer a saving throw. If you can't end the fight in 10 turns, something has gone horribly wrong.



Barring the roll question (if Orc is alone, you'd indeed be incredibly lucky to roll less than 15 XD), just having either another enemy or worse, an ally in the area would drop the chance significantly. You'll say, and you are right, you have a good margin of manoeuver since it's 20 feet of a point you choose. But still, you may not always have a good spot to pick only the one creature you want.Allies in the area of effect are not a concern unless they're injured. Additional enemies in the area of effect are also not a major concern. Sleep affects creatures in order of lowest HP to highest.

Furthermore, if there is another enemy creature just after -or worse, just before- the enemy turn, it can easily wake it up, so it was of little utility. However, if you succeed and had several allies getting turns in between, then it was indeed a smart move, because first to attack will auto crit and others will still get advantage. Even a single ally could be worth if he has strong nova capability (Paladin, Rogue).If one enemy uses its turn to wake up the other enemy, rather than fight, then that is in itself a benefit.


In the end, that makes for many requirements to fulfill for Sleep to be a good choice, that may or not be met in any given situation.
On the other hand, against the same Orc, bringing back a fellow Hunter / Fighter / Monk which turns comes before the Orc could be a safer shot. Depends on how accurate your comrade is, how much special abilities he has left, etc. For example, if a fellow Monk had some Ki left, he could try 3 attacks with Stunning Strike added. As long as one succeeds, the creature is effectively stunned for the whole round, no save (contrarily to Sleep).Of course reviving a fallen ally is the best course of action. Again, I explicitly say that in the post you quoted.


So, no, to be blunt, if you really want to put a "willfully ignorant" tag on someone, look at the mirror. Because there is no reasonable way to judge whether a player's actions were good or bad choice without having the full context: character motivations, party composition, resources and abilities, battlemap and current enemies which the respective position of everyone... Which you(we) obviously don't have. And believing otherwise is blinding oneself to one's lack of insight.I was demonstrating what should be a self-evident fact, that not all decisions are created equal.


Only thing everyone can agree on is that using healing resources to heal "beyond" just putting someone up is often -but not always- a waste of resources.
In this occurence, was the Ranger wrong to use Cure Wounds outside of fighting? How could we answer that? We don't know if the party had potions left, if they could have afforded to get a short rest (or maybe they didn't have hit die left), or if he had any good spell that could have been useful in the next encounter.
And running into a place where you know there will be another fight (but have no idea about which kind you'll get), with half of your party close to dead, when you know you could do something about it... That is usually not a good idea.
If you reached that point with all your spells remaining, you made some serious mistakes earlier in the day.

[Silfazaris]

I wouldn't use Gritty Realism in a party without a full healing capable caster, it doesn't make sense.