Extra Turn Undead Pools

[Seerow]

So, my group is starting up a new campaign soon, specifically one that is opening up to shenanigans we've generally avoided in the past.


My particular brand of shenanigans is going full on persist Cleric. Currently the plan is to pick up the divine variant of Anima Mage for 3 free persisted spells, and get at least two pools of turn undead so stuff like the Reliquary Symbol and Extra Turning get more value. Here's the problem: Anima Mage requires non-good. So Sacred Exorcist is out.

I know there are other non-cleric classes that grant turning/rebuking. Death Delver and Dread Necro seem to be the best options here. But I am trying to find a way to get an extra turning pool without losing a caster level. An evil variant of Sacred Exorcist won't fly, nor will a good version of Anima Mage.

That said, we are able to grab PF feats, which means that Prestige Classes that advance casting and grant turning, but lose a caster level early are on the table as an option (Prestigious Spellcaster feat). Also for our purposes Channeling from PF classes counts as Turn Undead, so any PF prestige classes that grant Channeling are an option. Thus far I haven't been able to find any classes, but am hoping one exists that I have just been bad at finding.




On a semi-related note (rather than creating a separate thread for the same character), any suggestions for siege engineering, particularly at low-mid levels before the major magic comes online. Mundane/alchemical items, tools, cheap magic items, etc? Mostly just intending it as a flavor aside to the character, where he comes from a background as a siege engineer for a mercenary company. Also, bonus points for any suggestion that involves breaking down a castle wall with an arrow.

[Venger]

if you don't want to dip terrible classes like death delver, the simplest way is picking up extra turning pools through domains. the domains that allow this are air, blightbringer, cold, earth, fire, ooze, plant, scalykind, slime, spider, thirst, warforged, and water

you can also pick up blessed by tem et nu, which lets to rebuke hippos as long as you've beaten a hippo in solo combat.

[Seerow]

if you don't want to dip terrible classes like death delver, the simplest way is picking up extra turning pools through domains. the domains that allow this are air, blightbringer, cold, earth, fire, ooze, plant, scalykind, slime, spider, thirst, warforged, and water

you can also pick up blessed by tem et nu, which lets to rebuke hippos as long as you've beaten a hippo in solo combat.

Most of the elemental domains don't work for Divine Feats. They all say they require Turn or Rebuke Undead attempts to activate. There's a few very specific variants of turning that say they count as turn undead for divine feats (for example the Command Dragons variant from Dragon Magic, Greater Turning, etc), but none of the domain turning pools are valid for use. Not 100% sure on blessed by tem et nu, but I suspect it will fall under the same categorization.

It is unfortunate, but it is the RAW and the ruling the table is going with.

[Venger]

Most of the elemental domains don't work for Divine Feats. They all say they require Turn or Rebuke Undead attempts to activate. There's a few very specific variants of turning that say they count as turn undead for divine feats (for example the Command Dragons variant from Dragon Magic, Greater Turning, etc), but none of the domain turning pools are valid for use. Not 100% sure on blessed by tem et nu, but I suspect it will fall under the same categorization.

It is unfortunate, but it is the RAW and the ruling the table is going with.

Ok. Agree to disagree about it being RAW, but if it's not what you're using at your table, then it's not helpful to you.

If you don't mind losing just one caster level (if persistomancy ranks above full casting) consider knight of the raven. it's the only class besides death delver which will allow you to get turning once you've already got rebuking.

[Seerow]

Ok. Agree to disagree about it being RAW, but if it's not what you're using at your table, then it's not helpful to you.

Yeah, I get it. Trust me it was the first thing I tried as well. I can't say I'm 100% sure about the ruling one way or the other, but go as the table goes, y'know?


If you don't mind losing just one caster level (if persistomancy ranks above full casting) consider knight of the raven. it's the only class besides death delver which will allow you to get turning once you've already got rebuking.

Just checked, Knight of the Raven requires a good alignment. Otherwise it would have been perfect for what I was looking for. Losing one caster level is fine, as long as it's a spell casting progressing class because Prestigious Spellcaster can turn a 9/10 class into 10/10... but it can't turn a 0/10 into 1/10.


Right now the current plan is to dip death delver, I was just hoping there was an option I hadn't found yet that doesn't get frequently discussed due to interactions with Pathfinder rules. (Similarly I figured there was a fair shot of there being a PF prestige class that grants Channel Energy. Prestige's aren't as popular in PF but they do exist, and I'm not particularly well versed in them).

[Rebel7284]

1. What's your DM's feeling about changing alignment? The rules that no longer qualifying for a class removes all class features is only in Complete Warrior as far as I know, and while the language is pretty generic, some people say that it only applies to classes in that book. If changing alignment is okay and just stops you from taking more levels in Anima Mage, just be neutral until you want Sacred Exorcist, and then start saving orphans left and right.

2. Bind Tenebrous to get an extra Turn Undead attempt every 5 rounds.

3. Bone Knight may work since you can use Prestigious Spellcaster.

4. There is a Shaman domain in some campaign setting that gives Turn Undead. Not technically a cleric domain though. Possibly can be acquired by Catalogues of Enlightenment if one squints the right way.

[Dagroth]

Simple. Start either with an Azurin Cleric and Channel Incarnum, or get the Rebuke Dragons ACF from Dragon Magic.

Both explicitly function for Divine Feats in their write-ups.

After that, one level of Death Delver is fine, given just how much Persist-o-mancy you'll be able to do.

If you don't have a specific Deity, get the Planning (for Extend Spell Feat) and either Spell (for Any-Spell spells) or Undeath (for free Extra Turning Feat).

[Venger]

Yeah, I get it. Trust me it was the first thing I tried as well. I can't say I'm 100% sure about the ruling one way or the other, but go as the table goes, y'know?

Just checked, Knight of the Raven requires a good alignment. Otherwise it would have been perfect for what I was looking for. Losing one caster level is fine, as long as it's a spell casting progressing class because Prestigious Spellcaster can turn a 9/10 class into 10/10... but it can't turn a 0/10 into 1/10.

Right now the current plan is to dip death delver, I was just hoping there was an option I hadn't found yet that doesn't get frequently discussed due to interactions with Pathfinder rules. (Similarly I figured there was a fair shot of there being a PF prestige class that grants Channel Energy. Prestige's aren't as popular in PF but they do exist, and I'm not particularly well versed in them).

I mean, just change your alignment after you get in, no one cares. unless that's another houserule at the table, of course.

truthfully, I'm not terrible familiar with pathfinder, so I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in the way of pf prcs, but I'm sure someone else, such as Psyren might. maybe hurl a pathfinder tag into the cloud to get some additional help.


1. What's your DM's feeling about changing alignment? The rules that no longer qualifying for a class removes all class features is only in Complete Warrior as far as I know, and while the language is pretty generic, some people say that it only applies to classes in that book. If changing alignment is okay and just stops you from taking more levels in Anima Mage, just be neutral until you want Sacred Exorcist, and then start saving orphans left and right.

2. Bind Tenebrous to get an extra Turn Undead attempt every 5 rounds.

3. Bone Knight may work since you can use Prestigious Spellcaster.

4. There is a Shaman domain in some campaign setting that gives Turn Undead. Not technically a cleric domain though. Possibly can be acquired by Catalogues of Enlightenment if one squints the right way.

agree about alignment. unless a class says "ex-such and such" like pallies or bards, you can change your alignment after you're done qualifying for it by RAW.

I specifically left out bone knight. while it will give you rebuke if you didn't have it, it specifically turns off your turning from earlier, so it won't help him get another pool.

are you talking about the hero (shaman) domain from faerun? or are you talking about something from rokugon?

Simple. Start either with an Azurin Cleric and Channel Incarnum, or get the Rebuke Dragons ACF from Dragon Magic.

Both explicitly function for Divine Feats in their write-ups.

After that, one level of Death Delver is fine, given just how much Persist-o-mancy you'll be able to do.

If you don't have a specific Deity, get the Planning (for Extend Spell Feat) and either Spell (for Any-Spell spells) or Undeath (for free Extra Turning Feat).

also an elegant solution. if you do go death delver, depending on your op level, you might look at mastery of day and night. it's a cute feat, and this is one of the only times it has a chance to do anything.

[Rebel7284]

I specifically left out bone knight. while it will give you rebuke if you didn't have it, it specifically turns off your turning from earlier, so it won't help him get another pool.


It turns off turning, but if you qualified with something that isn't turning, such as Lightbringer Cleric, you would not lose it RAW. Slightly cheesy, perhaps, but a good way to get two turning pools without any lost caster progression.

[Venger]

It turns off turning, but if you qualified with something that isn't turning, such as Lightbringer Cleric, you would not lose it RAW. Slightly cheesy, perhaps, but a good way to get two turning pools without any lost caster progression.

While you're right, he's said degenerate turning imitators are banned, so I'm not sure that he'd be entering with anything but vanilla turn. we're helping out a persistomancer, so I assume cheese is kosher.

[Seerow]

On alignment swapping: I was under the impression that if you lose the prereqs for a prestige class you lose the features of that class. So if an alignment is a prereq, you need to maintain it. That's not actually a house rule, just an assumption I have been working under, and if it turns out I am wrong then yes a dip into Sacred Exorcist is still the best option.

On Azurin Cleric or Rebuke Dragon: I had already planned on going Rebuke Dragon, just because. Which means any form of Turn or Rebuke undead will work. Thus far, barring alignment shenanigans, Death Delver or a dip into Dread Necromancer are my better options.

On Bone Knight: I actually like this, and it could end up being the best option overall, but comes online later (the 4 BAB takes a while to meet with my current build, unless I can use Divine Power to qualify... which I may get away with).

But in either case, yes Bone Knight will work with Azurin Cleric, Lightbringer Cleric, or Rebuke Dragons ACF to grant an extra pool, so it is a solid option here.

On Lightbringer Cleric: It actually does explicitly work with Divine Feats ("Destroy undead still counts as turn undead for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and so forth. A lightbringer cleric can use this ability the same number of times per day that he could turn undead. If a feat requires the expenditure of one or more uses of turn undead, it instead consumes uses of this ability"), so it is a solid option, but ultimately fits into the same spot as Azurin Cleric and Rebuke Dragons, while all 3 are different forms of turning and will stack with turning, I still need a way to get turning and can't just dip into Cleric 3 times to get each different version.

[Venger]

On alignment swapping: I was under the impression that if you lose the prereqs for a prestige class you lose the features of that class. So if an alignment is a prereq, you need to maintain it. That's not actually a house rule, just an assumption I have been working under, and if it turns out I am wrong then yes a dip into Sacred Exorcist is still the best option.
Unless it has a section on ex-such and suches, then you don't.

if you can get into bone knight, do so. it's a very good class, and since it sounds like you're playing at a fairly high op table, you're just a short trip to the shriver away from damage immunity.

[The_Iron_Lord]

I've heard that there are a pair of two-feat chains from Dragon that give you turning and rebuking respectively...I don't know which issue, unfortunately, but that's something, at least...:smallredface:

Also, I believe, while most Divine feats require that you have turn or rebuke undead, but I believe (though I haven't checked recently) that they are simply fueled by turn attempts (which includes rebuke as a freebie:smallbiggrin:). While this might not fly with some DMs, your DM seems pretty RAW as far as I can tell, so you at least might try it.

[Venger]

I've heard that there are a pair of two-feat chains from Dragon that give you turning and rebuking respectively...I don't know which issue, unfortunately, but that's something, at least...:smallredface:

Also, I believe, while most Divine feats require that you have turn or rebuke undead, but I believe (though I haven't checked recently) that they are simply fueled by turn attempts (which includes rebuke as a freebie:smallbiggrin:). While this might not fly with some DMs, your DM seems pretty RAW as far as I can tell, so you at least might try it.

That is how RAW works, but it's been houseruled away for the purpose of this thread, so isn't useful to op.

[Anthrowhale]

An extra pool is more valuable than Anima Mage at increasing the number of persistable spells.

Edit: ... so it makes more sense to optimize the number of pools and consider Anima Mage second.

[Seerow]

An extra pool is more valuable than Anima Mage at increasing the number of persistable spells.

Edit: ... so it makes more sense to optimize the number of pools and consider Anima Mage second.

Anima Mage is worth Tenebrous (1 extra turn per 5 rounds), and 3 free persisted spells. It makes every spell I persist that much cheaper, and gets 3 for free on top of that.

Just as an example, with Reliquary Holy Symbol, Extra Turning, and +3 cha, I've got +10 per pool. So with 2 pools and anima mage, I have 26 turn undead attempts and get 8 persisted spells. With 3 pools I get 39 turn undead attempts, but only 6 persisted spells.

There is a point where extra turning pools are better, but it would take at least adding a fourth to really beat out Anima Mage, and it's really hard to get 4 turning pools in anything resembling a coherent build. [[Edit: At least when the domain ones don't work.]]

Besides, anima mage has some other side perks, for example a crafting feat that I can change every day and get rid of when not in downtime.



I've heard that there are a pair of two-feat chains from Dragon that give you turning and rebuking respectively...I don't know which issue, unfortunately, but that's something, at least...


I will try to track those down, that does sound promising.

[Troacctid]

Also, I believe, while most Divine feats require that you have turn or rebuke undead, but I believe (though I haven't checked recently) that they are simply fueled by turn attempts (which includes rebuke as a freebie:smallbiggrin:). While this might not fly with some DMs, your DM seems pretty RAW as far as I can tell, so you at least might try it.
Divine Metamagic specifically says you must use turn or rebuke undead.

[Dagroth]

Divine Metamagic specifically says you must use turn or rebuke undead.

And both Rebuke Dragons and Channel Incarnum (which came out after Divine Metamagic) say they can be used for Divine Feats that normally use Turn Undead attempts.

Another thing to note with Extra Turning and items that specifically provide Extra Turning.

If you have a Charisma of 18, Rebuke Dragons (Cleric), Rebuke Undead (Death Delver) and Turn Undead (Sacred Exorcist)... by rule, the Extra Turning applies to Rebuke Dragons and only one of the two Undead affecting pools.

Some people claim that if you only have Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead, this is true... but when you add Rebuke Dragons, it makes Extra Turning affect all your pools. I say that's just attempting to twist the rules by re-arranging the grammar.

So, the example character would have 7 Rebuke Dragons, 7 Rebuke Undead & 7 Turn Undead. Extra Turning would give him 11 Rebuke Dragons, 7 Rebuke Undead & 11 Turn Undead.

If you have a Reliquary Holy Symbol, it would only add 1-3 Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead (the text of the item says "or") attempts. It could be argued that the item was not written with the idea that someone would have both, but I could only see that working for a (Lawful/Chaotic) Neutral Cleric.

The Nightstick also says "or", but the wording is a bit different and most likely would provide 4 extra Turn Attempts and 4 extra Rebuke Attempts if you have both... specifically since it only refers to Extra Turning in the requirements to make it (although someone could easily claim that Nightsticks would have the same restrictions as the Extra Turning Feat).

[Anthrowhale]

Just as an example, with Reliquary Holy Symbol, Extra Turning, and +3 cha, I've got +10 per pool. So with 2 pools and anima mage, I have 26 turn undead attempts and get 8 persisted spells. With 3 pools I get 39 turn undead attempts, but only 6 persisted spells.

If you try to DMM persist spells using Tenebrous to chip in a Turn, the cost is 6 from your pool (6+1-1), implying that you can only persist 4 spells, so 7 total.

To avoid losing a level of caster advancement you pay a 2 feat tax entering Anima Mage, right? This could be used for Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and Extra Turning which increases your 3 pools calculation to 51(?) combined and 8 persisted spells total.

But this is low end. If you do something like Human Cleric[Magic, Spell, Knowledge, Rebuke Dragons] 5/Dweomer Keeper 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1[Animal Domain] taking 4 Extra Turning feats and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell], with a Nightstick, a Reliquary holy symbol, and a maxed out charisma of 38 (=18+5(levels)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+4(untyped)), you get 2 pools with a total size of 78. After using Shapechange[Tome Dragon] you can reduce the cost of persistent spell to 6-1(Dweomer Keeper)-1(Easy metamagic)-3(Tome Dragon)=1, implying you can persist 39 spells, or twice that if you can afford enough rods of extend spell. That's probably far more than you can productively use.

[Twurps]

I'm not very well versed in Anima mage, nor it's adaptation. but is all you're getting from it 3 persisted spells?

Because that is very little reward for giving up a turning pool. why not go cleric with some ACF turning (like rebuke dragon) and add both turning and rebuking to the mix (eg. death delver and sacred exorcist). I would think you would put a LOT of effort in boosting your turning pools, be it through nightsticks, CHA optimization or just a lot of 'extra turning' feats. Meaning an extra pool would net you a lot more than 3 persisted spells.

Also: slightly off topic, but don't forget 'occular spell' to give spells a fixed range so they can be persisted

[Dagroth]

I'm not very well versed in Anima mage, nor it's adaptation. but is all you're getting from it 3 persisted spells?

Because that is very little reward for giving up a turning pool. why not go cleric with some ACF turning (like rebuke dragon) and add both turning and rebuking to the mix (eg. death delver and sacred exorcist). I would think you would put a LOT of effort in boosting your turning pools, be it through nightsticks, CHA optimization or just a lot of 'extra turning' feats. Meaning an extra pool would net you a lot more than 3 persisted spells.

Also: slightly off topic, but don't forget 'occular spell' to give spells a fixed range so they can be persisted

Again, by the text of Extra Turning, it would only apply to either Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead... not both. It would apply to both Rebuke Dragons and Rebuke Undead at the same time though.

This is why most people don't bother trying to get both if they're working on Persist-o-mancy... unless they have a really high CHA.

[Seerow]

If you try to DMM persist spells using Tenebrous to chip in a Turn, the cost is 6 from your pool (6+1-1), implying that you can only persist 4 spells, so 7 total.

To avoid losing a level of caster advancement you pay a 2 feat tax entering Anima Mage, right? This could be used for Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and Extra Turning which increases your 3 pools calculation to 51(?) combined and 8 persisted spells total.

But this is low end. If you do something like Human Cleric[Magic, Spell, Knowledge, Rebuke Dragons] 5/Dweomer Keeper 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1[Animal Domain] taking 4 Extra Turning feats and Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell], with a Nightstick, a Reliquary holy symbol, and a maxed out charisma of 38 (=18+5(levels)+5(inherent)+6(enhance)+4(untyped)), you get 2 pools with a total size of 78. After using Shapechange[Tome Dragon] you can reduce the cost of persistent spell to 6-1(Dweomer Keeper)-1(Easy metamagic)-3(Tome Dragon)=1, implying you can persist 39 spells, or twice that if you can afford enough rods of extend spell. That's probably far more than you can productively use.

This is a fair argument, but I still feel like Anima Mage has a place. Basically Dweomer Keeper saves 1 turn per persist, and so does Anima Mage via Tenebrous. Shapechange [Tome Dragon] is a neat exploit I hadn't encountered before, and that's nice, so dipping contemplative for the extra domain to grab that is definitely worth it. Similarly Easy Metamagic is a good grab.

In this particular case, the question isn't "Will I have two turn undead pools or anima mage", it's "What will I have to sacrifice as an anima mage to pick up the extra turning pool". Based on posts here, the ultimate answer is "Nothing" thanks to the way alignment prereqs work. Cleric 5/Anima Mage 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1 does basically everything the build you laid out does, it costs 1 extra feat (Dweomer Keeper requires an item creation feat to enter that Anima Mage wouldn't pick up because it gets all of the item creation feats effectively for free), so Dweomer Keeper ends up ahead by roughly 8 turning attempts overall. Dweomer Keeper has other goodies (Supernatural Spell and Mantle of Spells are both quite nice), and it is a valid choice, I am merely pointing out that Anima Mage isn't quite as big of a sink as you are painting it to be.


I'm not very well versed in Anima mage, nor it's adaptation. but is all you're getting from it 3 persisted spells?

Because that is very little reward for giving up a turning pool. why not go cleric with some ACF turning (like rebuke dragon) and add both turning and rebuking to the mix (eg. death delver and sacred exorcist). I would think you would put a LOT of effort in boosting your turning pools, be it through nightsticks, CHA optimization or just a lot of 'extra turning' feats. Meaning an extra pool would net you a lot more than 3 persisted spells.

First, as I pointed out above I'm not actually giving up the turning pool. I was giving up the option to enter Sacred Exorcist which is the easiest and cheapest way to get a second turning pool, since they have conflicting alignment requirements. No matter what I was going to have a second turning pool (worst case scenario was dipping Death Delver or Dread Necromancer). However I have since been corrected on the nature of alignment requirements, and so have no real reason to avoid Sacred Exorcist, which makes the rest easy. Which then just makes the question of is there any way to get a 3rd compatible turning pool that Anima Mage gets in the way of. And that may be possible (though I haven't seen any mention of such an option yet), but when we're already looking at an endgame of better than 30 persisted spells, it may just be superfluous anyway.

Anima Mage is a Casting/Binding theurge class. You can enter with effective binder level of 3, which you can pick up from feats. Once you enter it advances binding, so depending on interpretation by max level you end up with a binder level of either 12 or 13. This gives you quite a bit of versatility, depending on what you're doing. Several of the nicer effects you can opt to pick up (and switch between at will) are gain a Crafting Feat of your choice, get a free Turn Undead attempt every 5 rounds, summon monster (spell level = sorcerer of your binder level) every 5 rounds. Lots of other options to choose from you can see the whole list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list), everything up to 6th level is on the table.

Besides the vestiges themselves, you get 3/day cast a spell with any metamagic you know with no increase in cost. Gain an extra spell slot of your highest level. Gain some bonus initiative. And the capstone is 1/day cast a prepared spell as an immediate+silent+still spell; so basically a 1/day "Get out of death free" card, depending on what you prepare.

The divine adaptation is basically just "You don't need to be arcane to take this class", nothing else about it changes.


Also: slightly off topic, but don't forget 'occular spell' to give spells a fixed range so they can be persisted

Wouldn't dream of it. It opens up the door wide for a lot of rather nice spells.

[Dagroth]

Given that the only turning pools that are specifically allowed to be used for Divine Feats are "Channel Incarnum", "Rebuke Dragons", "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead"... and that Extra Turning doesn't affect both "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead" at the same time...

It can't be done. UA (and other books) specifically say you can't take a class and a variant of said class as two different classes in your build. So you can't get both Channel Incarnum & Rebuke Dragons since both are only available at Cleric 1.

If you can somehow convince a DM to allow a Death Delver to get Rebuke Dragons, then you have won.

[Seerow]

Given that the only turning pools that are specifically allowed to be used for Divine Feats are "Channel Incarnum", "Rebuke Dragons", "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead"... and that Extra Turning doesn't affect both "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead" at the same time...

It can't be done. UA (and other books) specifically say you can't take a class and a variant of said class as two different classes in your build. So you can't get both Channel Incarnum & Rebuke Dragons since both are only available at Cleric 1.

If you can somehow convince a DM to allow a Death Delver to get Rebuke Dragons, then you have won.

Right, you can probably manage to get Rebuke Dragons, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead all at once... but as has been pointed out there's diminishing returns since the items and feats that increase those pools don't apply to both, so you'd get 3+cha mod. Mind you with a high enough cha mod it's not negligible... but also probably not worth it overall.

[Rebel7284]

Again, by the text of Extra Turning, it would only apply to either Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead... not both. It would apply to both Rebuke Dragons and Rebuke Undead at the same time though.

This is why most people don't bother trying to get both if they're working on Persist-o-mancy... unless they have a really high CHA.


Let's look at the full text of extra turning:

Extra Turning [General]
Prerequisite
Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.

Benefit
Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal.

If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.

Normal
Without this feat, a character can typically turn or rebuke undead (or other creatures) a number of times per day equal to 3 + his or her Charisma modifier.

Special
You can gain Extra Turning multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.


Yes, reading 100% raw, Extra Turning only applies to one of turning OR rebuking and also to any other type of turn <creature> abilities, so it wouldn't even work with channel incarnum as that's not a creature.

However, note the context, this was printed when it was not possible to get both turning and rebuking at once and only other alternate pools were turn <creature>. The second bolded part makes it clear, the intent of the feat is to boost EACH turn/rebuke pool you have. Whether a particular DM will go with the clear intent or with RAW is unknown.



Given that the only turning pools that are specifically allowed to be used for Divine Feats are "Channel Incarnum", "Rebuke Dragons", "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead"... and that Extra Turning doesn't affect both "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead" at the same time...

It can't be done. UA (and other books) specifically say you can't take a class and a variant of said class as two different classes in your build. So you can't get both Channel Incarnum & Rebuke Dragons since both are only available at Cleric 1.

If you can somehow convince a DM to allow a Death Delver to get Rebuke Dragons, then you have won.

That's not what UA says... Page 48.


MULTICLASSING AND VARIANT CLASSES
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky
subject, and the DM has to make rulings based on what is
appropriate for his campaign. In cases where a single class
offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the
monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing
between different versions of the same class (just as
a character can’t multiclass between different versions of specialist
wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the
character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—
multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is
probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained
from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting,
which is always separate).
In any case, only the first version of a favored class is treated
as favored; a halfling rogue/wizard who later begins gaining
levels in the wilderness rogue variant class can’t treat both the
rogue and wilderness rogue classes as favored, only the class
gained first (in this case, rogue). Under no circumstances does
spellcasting ability from multiple classes (even variants of the
same class) stack. A character with levels of bard and levels of
bardic sage has two separate caster levels and two separate sets
of spells per day, even though the classes are very similar.


Basically taking multiple variants is totally up to DM permission. There is no default "allowed" or "disallowed".
It's also pretty suboptimal for the most part as the spellcasting doesn't stack.

[Anthrowhale]

I am merely pointing out that Anima Mage isn't quite as big of a sink as you are painting it to be.

I understand better where you are coming from: Anima Mage has a bunch of ancillary benefits. My earlier reply was under the theory that you were single-minded about persisting.

Something to keep in mind: the costs of Anima Mage on a Binder-free entry is highly dependent on the DM and game. Essentially, you need Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. But, these feats are not cumulative with Soul Binding Bonus from Anima Mage, so you'll end up with only soul binding as a level 10 binder. If you want to reach level 12 binder then you need a third feat, Improved Binding. However, maybe the DM does not worry about qualification after a prestige class is qualified for (RAW in most cases), maybe they would allow an Anima Mage to self-qualify, or maybe you need to keep those first 2 do-nothing feats. If you don't need to keep them, then you can scavenge them most cheaply via a Psychic Reformation.

Incidentally, you can do early entry for Anima Mage. For example a Human Cleric[Planning, Undeath] 3 could take Apprentice[Soldier], Bind Vestige, and Improved Bind Vestige as feats and achieve the requisite skill requirements. It's even possible to shoehorn this all into a level 2 entry if you have access to flaws.

W.r.t. Cleric->Dweomer Keeper, you can take Rune (for scribe Scroll) instead of Spell, then use "Substitute Domain" (the spell) to Spell (the domain), then memorize an arcane spell via anyspell, then dispel Substitute Domain. You still retain the memorized spell slot and hence the ability to cast arcane spells needed for Dweomer Keeper. In fact, you can potentially take Rune and Planning, then play Substitute domain shenanigans on the Knowledge domain to first memorize an arcane spell and then use Substitute Domain again to get the Magic domain. Or you could add a level of Church Inquisitor to this and then Substitute Domain to add Undeath into the mix for even more turning. A limiting factor on the use of Substitute Domain is a deity with the requisite portfolio of domains which is very campaign specific.


... Extra Turning doesn't affect both "Turn Undead" and "Rebuke Undead" at the same time...
I don't believe this. As far as I can tell, you are parsing 'or' as a logical xor (one or the other but not both). But that's not the right interpretation here--instead it's a logical or (one or the other or both). The relevant text is:


each of your ... abilities gains four additional uses per day.

which is reinforced by the 'special' clause later.

[Dagroth]

This has been done to death here and on other boards.

Extra turning says Turn or Rebuke. For "each", the text clearly requires differing types of creatures turned/rebuked.

Only by forcing poor/incorrect grammar can anyone claim that Extra Turning would give four additional attempts to both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead at the same time.

[animewatcha]

It has been done to death on this and other boards. Primarily in the aspect of 'I have this ideal build in mind, how can I stack as many pools as possible while keeping my ideal build as possible.'

Resulting consensus being that Extra Turning applying to all pools Turn and rebuke while building as many pools.

However, since you want to go 100% Raw on Extra Turning. We can go that route in a way you won't like and have it still be 100% RAW.

[Anthrowhale]

...

Ok, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you've only understood the RAW meaning of the first sentence without taking into account the modifications to meaning imposed by the others.

In the first sentence:


...you can use your ability ... four more times per day than normal...


This use of 'or' is a logical xor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_or) rather than logical or (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction) as otherwise it would say abilities (plural).

The next sentence:


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature ... each of your ... abilities gains four additional uses per day.

uses the logical or instead. Someone with Rebuke Dragons, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead would satisfy the 'if' and hence every pool would grow according to the 'then'. On the other hand, someone with only Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead would not satisfy the 'if' so only one pool would be augmented as per the first sentence.

Then, you get to the "Special" clause.


Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your ... abilities four additional times per day.

which uses the logical or again. As a consequence, the second and later Extra Turning feats would always apply to every pool even if a character only has Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead.

This is about as careful a RAW reading as possible while fully obeying grammar rules. Overall, this seems unlikely to be the rule as intended because the mixture of logical or and logical xor is simply confusing in English. However, for any character taking Rebuke Dragons before getting both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead the practical implication for DMM[Persist] is that Extra Turning always applies to all pools.

[Dagroth]

Ok, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you've only understood the RAW meaning of the first sentence without taking into account the modifications to meaning imposed by the others.

In the first sentence:


This use of 'or' is a logical xor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_or) rather than logical or (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction) as otherwise it would say abilities (plural).

The next sentence:

uses the logical or instead. Someone with Rebuke Dragons, Turn Undead, and Rebuke Undead would satisfy the 'if' and hence every pool would grow according to the 'then'. On the other hand, someone with only Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead would not satisfy the 'if' so only one pool would be augmented as per the first sentence.

Then, you get to the "Special" clause.

which uses the logical or again. As a consequence, the second and later Extra Turning feats would always apply to every pool even if a character only has Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead.

This is about as careful a RAW reading as possible while fully obeying grammar rules. Overall, this seems unlikely to be the rule as intended because the mixture of logical or and logical xor is simply confusing in English. However, for any character taking Rebuke Dragons before getting both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead the practical implication for DMM[Persist] is that Extra Turning always applies to all pools.

So if you read it your way, then it works the way you want. If you read it using standard English ("this or that" and "more than one type of creature") it doesn't work.

You are claiming that a Cleric who starts with the Fire Domain & Turn Undead who then gets a level of Death Delver would apply Extra Turning to all three turning pools despite the text saying "Turn or Rebuke" and the further clarification text indicating that it only increases separate pools for different types of creatures.

As I said in my earlier posts... it only works your way if you take liberties with grammar.

[Venger]

So if you read it your way, then it works the way you want. If you read it using standard English ("this or that" and "more than one type of creature") it doesn't work.

You are claiming that a Cleric who starts with the Fire Domain & Turn Undead who then gets a level of Death Delver would apply Extra Turning to all three turning pools despite the text saying "Turn or Rebuke" and the further clarification text indicating that it only increases separate pools for different types of creatures.

As I said in my earlier posts... it only works your way if you take liberties with grammar.

Yes, because that's what the actual text of extra turning says:



If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.
...Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.

if you have turn undead and fire domain, you get +4 to turning undead and +4 to fire domain.

[Dagroth]

Yes, because that's what the actual text of extra turning says:


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.
...Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.

if you have turn undead and fire domain, you get +4 to turning undead and +4 to fire domain.

I never said you wouldn't. I said if you have Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead, then Extra Turning will only work with one of them... no matter how many other "turning pools" you have.

If you're a Sovereign Speaker (Eberron class that gets lots of Domains) and have the Fire, Cold, Air & Plant Domains... Extra Turning would give you +4 extra turns for each of those as well as for your regular Turn Undead. If you then took a level of Death Delver to get Rebuke Undead, your Extra Turning wouldn't work for it because it's a kind of creature that you already got the bonus for (Turn Undead).

[Rerednaw]

Well how much crafting cheese? If Leadership is allowed I mean? Stack all those crafting cost reductions on an artificer follower and you'll get nightsticks at a considerable discount.

[VisitingDaGulag]

OP only asks 1 question about items, etc. Meh

In case you want more turn undead pools, there is a build that has maximized them. It's an odd record, but I know I've seen it before. You could pull from that.

[Vizzerdrix]

On a semi-related note (rather than creating a separate thread for the same character), any suggestions for siege engineering, particularly at low-mid levels before the major magic comes online. Mundane/alchemical items, tools, cheap magic items, etc? Mostly just intending it as a flavor aside to the character, where he comes from a background as a siege engineer for a mercenary company. Also, bonus points for any suggestion that involves breaking down a castle wall with an arrow.

1- shapesand. Use it to make your siege weapons on the fly.
2- a gnome calculus may fit thematicly. Think of it as a hand catapult for acid/frost/fire/ham sammichies.