Cleric 20 not worth it?

[Master O'Laughs]

In my current 5e campaign, I am about to retire my current character having met his goals for adventuring. Party consists of a Moon Druid, Necromancer Wizard, Swashbuckler Rogue, and Gunslinger Fighter (Matthew Mercer Homebrew). I was serving as a frontline tank and part healer (Sorcadin).

I am really leaning towards a Human Life Cleric. If any of you have seen the Drifters anime, I was inspired by the St. Germain character. My question is Cleric 20 worth it? In some guides and threads, it seems Cleric 20 is not that great of a capstone. Why is that? To me, auto success on Divine Intervention seems great! Are there a lot of stipulations on hat you can actually ask for? or is it because it is very DM dependent?

If Cleric 20 is not worth it, what are decent multi-classes? And when would they be taken? Input is appreciated, thanks.

Campaign is a high magic item campaign (we all started with +1 weapons at first level for weapon users) if that changes anything. For me it discouraged me from making a forge Cleric since it didn't seem like it was going to be an issue to get magic items.

[Tanarii]

It depends what your DM allows you to use Divine Intervention for. If it's just a Cleric spell of any level 1/week, it's nice since it still makes it a 1 action spell with no costly components. But since you can already cast Cleric spells of any level on a daily basis, the 1/week means it's not world-shaking.

OTOH if your DM allows it to far exceed level 9 spells in scope or power, it can be golden.

Edit: how likely are you to actually see level 20 in this campaign?

[Biggstick]

The nice thing about Cleric is that the real capstone for each archetype is it's level 17 ability. This means you have three levels of which you can decide to either multiclass with or pick up the remaining Cleric levels.

Seeing as how you're going Life Cleric, you can absolutely grab 1-3 levels in any other class you'd like and it will work well.

Check out Yorrin's Guide and the multiclassing section. He breaks down each class and their value for a Cleric multiclass.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics

[NNescio]

It depends what your DM allows you to use Divine Intervention for. If it's just a Cleric spell of any level 1/week, it's nice since it still makes it a 1 action spell with no costly components. But since you can already cast Cleric spells of any level on a daily basis, the 1/week means it's not world-shaking.

OTOH if your DM allows it to far exceed level 9 spells in scope or power, it can be golden.

Edit: how likely are you to actually see level 20 in this campaign?

DI is plenty good if the DM allows the Cleric to pick whichever Cleric or domain spell he wants to duplicate in one action, similar to Wish duplicating spells of 8th level and below (by default the Cleric doesn't get to make the choice; he just implores his deity for aid and "the DM chooses the nature of the intervention"). This can be used as a 'free' True Rez (assuming infinite wealth shenanigans aren't in play) 1/week (granted, you can do this without the capstone, but it becomes far less reliable), or to enable nasty tricks like one-action Hallow or Forbiddance casts. Also, unlike Wish, DI can still be used in an Antimagic Field.

That said, it still sort of pales compared to dipping Fighter for Action Surge.

[Master O'Laughs]

It depends what your DM allows you to use Divine Intervention for. If it's just a Cleric spell of any level 1/week, it's nice since it still makes it a 1 action spell with no costly components. But since you can already cast Cleric spells of any level on a daily basis, the 1/week means it's not world-shaking.

OTOH if your DM allows it to far exceed level 9 spells in scope or power, it can be golden.

Edit: how likely are you to actually see level 20 in this campaign?

It currently has seemed like an open ended world with the possibility of fighting some crazy strong Ancient Dragon Lich eventually (built into world lore and its destruction could not be confirmed). DM has said it could get there but now sure how long the campaign stays there.

I will make sure to ask him about his thoughts on divine intervention and the extent to what it can do.

[Tanarii]

The reason I asked is that when talking about multiclassing, generally speaking, what you're going to get at 20 is a less important consideration than delaying access to other abilities by X levels.

In other words, if you dip 3 levels of Fighter or whatever, you're getting level 3 spells at level 8th instead of 5th, level 5 spells at 12th instead of 9th, etc. Even a one level delay can be a significant delay in gained power. Especially once you're out of the level 1-4 Tier 1 and into level 5-8 Tier 2 range. Tier 2 has the slowest rate for levels gained in the 5e game.

[KorvinStarmast]

When you reach level 16, let us know.

The last four levels are as follows:
and max out healing spells at 18.
Last feat/ ASI at 19,

Once level 20, what sort of adventuring to you think your group will do? Who knows, your DM may not have an idea yet.

You have access to all cleric spells. You can cast ninth level spells, like True Resurrection, and a few more high level spell slots to play with. You can prepare most of the spell list on a given day. (Assuming a wisdom of 20 and you being level 20).

How does Divine Intervention work at your table? You and the DM will figure that out by the time you are levels 10-12 and you get more access to the deity's aid.

The GM chooses the nature of the intervention; the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate.
Free extra ninth level spell when you really need it, at worst. Maybe a Planar comes to your aid ...
It recharges every seven days.

At that level, you are doing some serious high level stuff, and also against some seriously high level challenges.

Since you are a life cleric, it is my estimation that you'll be covered up in busy buffing, supporting, healing, raising, and fighting. Lots of things to do.

If the campaign doesn't go past 16, then it really doesn't matter.

[Master O'Laughs]

Okay, so general consensus is while it may be worthwhile to MC at lvl 19 or 20, before then you are handicapping the cleric's abilities. Good to know.

Also, general thoughts on some of the mechanics if you don't mind.

Starting scores are 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 with the ability on a 1 for 1 basis to subtract from 1 stat to add to another. The restriction being no more than 2 negative stats and they can't go below 8 and no more than one 18 (pre-racial modifiers).

My thought was something like this

Vuman
Life Cleric

STR 14+1 (for plate mail)
DEX 10 (reversible with INT)
CON 16+1 or 17+1
INT 8 (Reversible with DEX)
WIS 18
CHA 12 or 11

Feats
Vuman: Magic Initiate (Druid: Goodberry, Shillelagh, Druidcraft)
Lvl 4: War Caster
Lvl 8: Observant +1 WIS
Lvl 12: +1 WIS, +1 CON
Lvl 16: No Clue (Lucky, Sentinel, Inspiring Leader, +2 CON)

[KorvinStarmast]

Vuman
Life Cleric

STR 14+1 (for plate mail)
DEX 10 (reversible with INT)
CON 16+1 or 17+1
INT 8 (Reversible with DEX)
WIS 18
CHA 12 or 11

Feats
Vuman: Magic Initiate (Druid: Goodberry, Shillelagh, Druidcraft)
Lvl 4: War Caster
Lvl 8: Observant +1 WIS
Lvl 12: +1 WIS, +1 CON
Lvl 16: No Clue (Lucky, Sentinel, Inspiring Leader, +2 CON)

Suggest lucky, making a save versus missing it, at a critical time, is a great capability.

[Galadhrim]

Okay, so general consensus is while it may be worthwhile to MC at lvl 19 or 20, before then you are handicapping the cleric's abilities. Good to know.

Also, general thoughts on some of the mechanics if you don't mind.

Starting scores are 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 with the ability on a 1 for 1 basis to subtract from 1 stat to add to another. The restriction being no more than 2 negative stats and they can't go below 8 and no more than one 18 (pre-racial modifiers).

My thought was something like this

Vuman
Life Cleric

STR 14+1 (for plate mail)
DEX 10 (reversible with INT)
CON 16+1 or 17+1
INT 8 (Reversible with DEX)
WIS 18
CHA 12 or 11

Feats
Vuman: Magic Initiate (Druid: Goodberry, Shillelagh, Druidcraft)
Lvl 4: War Caster
Lvl 8: Observant +1 WIS
Lvl 12: +1 WIS, +1 CON
Lvl 16: No Clue (Lucky, Sentinel, Inspiring Leader, +2 CON)

I think you would be much better off with resilient Con and +2 Wis than Observant and +1 of each. Given your party make up and our choice of armor it looks like you will be at least the off tank. That being the case, you are going to struggle to maintain your concentration.

For magic initiate, I get why you are taking Shillelagh . Why Druidcraft? You can take thaumaturgy off the cleric list and do pretty much the same thing. I would take thorn whip. Pulling people into your spirit guardians would be awesome. It will also help you protect your backline by pulling creatures off of the lower AC party members. Also might think about absorb elements to half damage from that one big spell or dragon breath that is going to drop you. You are now a great tank. Very sticky with opportunity attacks as spells, a 15 foot radius of slow with spirit guardians, and the ability to drag guys off of friends and back in to your zone of death.

I would do something like:
Str 14+1
Dex 12
Con 16+1
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 10

V Human: magic initiate: druid - absorb elements, Shillelagh, Thorn whip
4: War Caster
8: Resilient Con
12: Lucky
16: +2 Wisdom

If at 12 you are feeling like your spell save isn't high enough you can increase Wisdom first but I think I would rather have Lucky.

[Tanarii]

Why Druidcraft? You can take thaumaturgy off the cleric list and do pretty much the same thing.Thaumaturgy and Druidcraft do very different things. Not saying that it's a great pick for magic initiate, just that they're different.

[RickAllison]

Thaumaturgy and Druidcraft do very different things. Not saying that it's a great pick for magic initiate, just that they're different.

The main overlap is actually with Prestidigitation, which shares the harmless sensory effect with Druidcraft and changing the appearance of fire with Thaumaturgy. Still has enough unique effects to justify getting all three if you have the chance, but EEPC has better options for utility cantrips and how often do you get the chance for more without losing something?

I will say that I had a blast with a Druid who had both cantrips. Since the limit is per spell rather than concentration, having redundant effects just means you can support more of them.

[Master O'Laughs]

For magic initiate, I get why you are taking Shillelagh . Why Druidcraft? You can take thaumaturgy off the cleric list and do pretty much the same thing. I would take thorn whip. Pulling people into your spirit guardians would be awesome. It will also help you protect your backline by pulling creatures off of the lower AC party members. Also might think about absorb elements to half damage from that one big spell or dragon breath that is going to drop you. You are now a great tank. Very sticky with opportunity attacks as spells, a 15 foot radius of slow with spirit guardians, and the ability to drag guys off of friends and back in to your zone of death.

I would do something like:
Str 14+1
Dex 12
Con 16+1
Int 8
Wis 18
Cha 10

V Human: magic initiate: druid - absorb elements, Shillelagh, Thorn whip
4: War Caster
8: Resilient Con
12: Lucky
16: +2 Wisdom

If at 12 you are feeling like your spell save isn't high enough you can increase Wisdom first but I think I would rather have Lucky.

I didn't initially think about thorn whip because I overlooked the combat applications in conjunction with other spells. Druidcraft was a RP choice so my PC could always smell like flowers. Goodberry was chosen for partly an RP choice (Constantly offering people some of HIS goodberries, if ya know what I mean) and to be able to provide free health potions to everyone for the day due to the synergy with Life Clerics proficiency to each berry's healing.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, the cleric cantrips I was planning on taking were Sacred Flame (different defense targeted), Light (several non-darkvision characters and no one has it) Guidance (best support cantrip NA), and mending (no one has it and can be useful).

[Galadhrim]

I didn't initially think about thorn whip because I overlooked the combat applications in conjunction with other spells. Druidcraft was a RP choice so my PC could always smell like flowers. Goodberry was chosen for partly an RP choice (Constantly offering people some of HIS goodberries, if ya know what I mean) and to be able to provide free health potions to everyone for the day due to the synergy with Life Clerics proficiency to each berry's healing.

Also, the cleric cantrips I was planning on taking were Sacred Flame (different defense targeted), Light (several non-darkvision characters and no one has it) Guidance (best support cantrip NA), and mending (no one has it and can be useful).


Sounds good to me. I always like roleplay over mechanics. Usually you can find a way to make things work mechanically anyway. Just looking at the druid list made me wish I'd had thorn whip on my cleric.

[Master O'Laughs]

Yeah, the character is going to be very flirtatious and exuberant. His quest is to establish an adventurer's guild to grow his own prestige and riches (taking a cut of completed quests). He will always be looking to bring on any sentient species into his guild as long as they uphold the tenets of the guild.

[Master O'Laughs]

Quick question, is not having strength a bad idea? I was thinking about the character and I think they actually would not be very muscular so I was thinking of switching DEX with STR and going Medium armor instead.

1) is the 1 to 2 AC (Half Plate vs Breast plate) that big of a deal?

The upside would be higher DEX which applies to a lot of things. and there is a better (or worse to some) contrast between attacking with and without shillelagh active.