Building a better fencer.

[Dudewithknives]

One of my favorite classes back in the day was the Duelist.

I want to run another one but there is no specific class with a subclass that does it really well like they used to.

Rogue has the swashbuckler.
Monk has Kensai.
Battlemaster fighter could be flavored to do it somewhat.
Possibly a pact blade warlock with the right invocations.

All I really want is a fencer style duelist who specializes in a rapier and no off hand.

The issue is how to have an ac and hp to not get splattered in the front line, and be able to pull my weight in the group.

The only requirement is that it really needs to have darkvision, I would like to wear no armor but I could live with the idea of glamored studded leather.

Any race is fine.

[DivisibleByZero]

Rogue has the swashbuckler.
Battlemaster fighter could be flavored to do it somewhat.

You already answered your own question.
Battle Master 3 (or 5) / Swashbuckler X
This is the quintessential fencer in 5e, although you could easily do it with just Swashbuckler.

[NecroDancer]

All of those choices are good. There is also a bard collage of swords and you can reflavor the inspiration as "sweet sword twirls and sick flips". If you spend your magical secrets on haste than you will be quite the duelist.

[nickl_2000]

Lizard Folk Fighter with the Defensive Fighting style will keep you upright pretty decently. This will give you an AC of 13 (nat armor) + dex + 1 (defensive fighting style). So, a pretty strong AC.

They also give +2 to con, which will make you less squishy. Add in a Defensive Duelist feat if your DM gives you a free feat at level 1, or at level 4 instead of the ASI and you can get a very strong AC going.

If you don't like the Fighter, then the next natural step would be a Ranger. They get a fighting style at level 2 for that bonus, and you could take the Dual Wielder feat at level 4 to increase your AC even more. I know that you said a single weapon, but the idea of a parrying dagger is very common in light style combat. You may also be able to argue with your DM to let you create a parrying dagger that are martial weapons that grant +1 to AC and otherwise function as a dagger, minus the ability to be thrown (credit for homebrew goes to Kane0) .

[DivisibleByZero]

Defensive fighting style requires that you be wearing armor. Natural armor doesn't count as being worn. It works with Mariner fighting style though, if UA is allowed.

[asmartfellow]

Elven Monk. Solid. You don't want to wear armor? High Dex and Wis. Done. Elves get Rapier use I think. There you go. Plus, you have an open hand, if you need to slap someone with a stunning fist...it's there for you.

That's how I'd do it.

[DivisibleByZero]

Elves get short sword and longsword. Drow get rapiers. But an elven ss or drow rapier wielding Kensai Monk would work.... if being a bit wonky in my mind.

I still think, and always will, that Swashbuckler is the best fencer.
High damage single attack, good defense with mobility and Uncanny Dodge, etc.

[Dudewithknives]

Defensive fighting style requires that you be wearing armor. Natural armor doesn't count as being worn. It works with Mariner fighting style though, if UA is allowed.

Most UA is good to go, the game is being run from an adventure path so it should be pretty solid.

Maybe an odd Kobold swashbuckler who tries to act all dignified and noble.

I would play a Vhuman if they had darkvision .

[Tanarii]

The reason "no armor & empty off hand" isn't a style is because it's a terrible way to fight, except in very specific circumstances. Like being in a city where it's frowned upon to walk around in armor and weapons except a light-ish sword. Or shipboard where armor is a death-sentence if you go overboard and a free hand is useful for grabbing things to maintain balance.

OTOH, this is a fantasy game, and it's already built in to the Fighter class. Dex fighter with Dueling Fighting Style. Done. It even works with EKs, who need War Caster (and to avoid M components) if they don't have a free hand.

[nickl_2000]

Defensive fighting style requires that you be wearing armor. Natural armor doesn't count as being worn. It works with Mariner fighting style though, if UA is allowed.

Well between that and the darkvision requirement that I missed, my idea is pretty much trash :) Glad there are others that have better ideas. Although, I would try and argue with my DM that natural armor would count for this case. My interpretation of the defensive fighting style is that you are skilled moving your body so that your armor takes the blows instead of it hurting you. There is no reason why one could do the exact same thing with natural armor as with work armor. Still, that's up to DMs interpretation.

[Cybren]

The reason "no armor & empty off hand" isn't a style is because it's a terrible way to fight, except in very specific circumstances. Like being in a city where it's frowned upon to walk around in armor and weapons except a light-ish sword. Or shipboard where armor is a death-sentence if you go overboard and a free hand is useful for grabbing things to maintain balance.

OTOH, this is a fantasy game, and it's already built in to the Fighter class. Dex fighter with Dueling Fighting Style. Done. It even works with EKs, who need War Caster (and to avoid M components) if they don't have a free hand.

Grappling is a reason to have an empty hand, but there's not really enough to do with it that it's worth it all the time. Also, if "being a terrible way to fight" (in the real world) then probably you'd lose most of the iconic D&D weapons

[asmartfellow]

Upon further research, elves don't get rapier. SO, take 1 level of fighter, and the rest Monk. Take Fighter first for much more starting money and you can use the Rapier right away, but without armor your AC will totally blow for this level. At lvl 2, you take Monk.

Primary Dex, Secondary Wisdom still. Going to have wicked good AC w/ +2 to DEX from Elf helping both AC and to hit/damage w/ finesse.

Can see in the dark.

Take a moon elf and you get a free cantrip. I'd recommend Mage Hand. That allows you to do some pretty neat Robin Hood type stuff.

Take Mariner fighting style for another +1 AC as well as enhanced climbing speed.

[Corran]

How about an elf bladesinger?
Darkvision, rapier and one free hand, good AC when bladesinging (also use spells like shield, blur mirror image), no armor whatsoever, everything you want is right there apart from good hp, but you can always grab a feat like tough or bump your con (especially if you rolled above average stats). Might be a bit risky especially against opponents that wont target your AC. At level 10, song of defense could help and make up a bit for your few hp.

[Laserlight]

Some combination of:


Hexblade--can attack with a single weapon using CHA, can cast Vicious Mockery if you want the Cyrano de Bergerac feel, and can get the Darkvision invocation.

Monk--one of my players refluffed Open Hand Monk as "student at an illegal fencing school", and liked it; it didn't feel particularly "duelist-y" to me but that may be because she waded into fights as if she were an armored barbarian. She really enjoyed the mobility features.

Battlemaster fighter for maneuvers.

Swashbuckler rogue

[Hrugner]

Is your frontline requirement intended to keep you in toe-to-toe combat, or is the intent to dodge in and out of combat with a mobility like ability?

[Joe the Rat]

Swashbuckler really gives you the core of what you want: a combatant that focuses on maneuverability, and is absolute murder in a one-on-one fight. But you are going to want better AC than what being naked provides.
Some additions:
Fighter can add some options - duelist style (since you are one-weaponing) or mariner (from UA - better AC), action surging, extra attack (at 5), Battle Master maneuvers which absolutely scream awesome fencer, or spells from the Eldritch Knight... or expanded criticals from Champion (which is boring but effective). You have the option to up your armor, and can go buckler (shield) if you desire.
Barbarian is an ...interesting option. You won't get a lot of mileage out of Rage damage or reckless attack, but you get some solid defense (Con for AC, half damage from weapons while raging - or almost everything if you bear totem, advantage on most Dex saving throws... and Extra attack if you stick around. Requires Str 13.

Wis 13 puts Monk (Wis to AC for 1 level) or Ranger ( a few levels gets to minor casting, fighting style, more hurting things options, favored enemy: human and be a bounty hunter). Plus Extra Attack at 5.

If you start with the swashbuckler, you are going to want to up your Charisma. There's some leverage potential here. Drop a few points into Strength, and you can add Paladin. Up to 5 gets the handy extra attack, a bit of spell casting, a bit of healing, or smites to stack on top of your sneak damage. Oath of the Ancients works well for the fun-loving type, but Vengeance makes for a good brooder.

You also have caster potential. A free hand means no fussing with Warcaster or juggling weapons to cast your spells. Swashbuckler's love of Charisma puts sorcerer on the table. Between Mage Armor or natural AC (Dragon Sorcerer), you can get by quite well without armor. It also puts Warlock on the table. Two levels gets you at-will Mage Armor and 120' Devil Vision (Darkvision only better so you don't have to be an elf), plus a few cantrips and spells for utility. Note I am skipping the blast invocations - you are a Swashbuckler with Friends from the Other Side, not a tentacle-themed laser battery. Both of these give you access to a fun little spell: Booming Blade. Unless you go deep on a martial class, or run up Blade Warlock 5 for Thirsting Blade (Extra attack with your favorite weapon), You are only making single attack rolls. So why not throw a little spell damage on that, that keeps your single-target weapon damage mostly comparable, still lets you sneak attack, and they take additional damage if they move - and as a swashbuckler, you can freely step away from anyone you attack - or disengage with that bonus action if you're getting swamped.

Bard also provides some options - Lore Bard gets you Cutting Words and Mage Armor potential, Valor Bard gets you extra attack potential - for a 6-level investment.

Bladesinger is an option for the smarty types (bonus Int to AC, you're a wizard), but comes with the cost of being an elf.

Other options aside, you may want to look at the Defensive Duelist Feat. It's a scaling AC bonus against one attack, using your reaction. Against one-on-ones, you'll be saving that for borderline rolls, or weighing maybe avoiding the attack (DD) versus mitigating damage (uncanny dodge). Anything that gives you more opportunities to attack - like Sentinel or Mage Slayer - are also worth a look once you hit Dex 20.

[Specter]

Half-Elf Swashbuckler 9/Battlemaster 11. Dueling fighting style. Riposte, Disarming Attack and Feinting Attack as maneuvers. Defensive Duelist feat. (yes, Riposte is also reaction, but DD is forever and sometimes you'll need it).

You're all set!

[Dudewithknives]

Is your frontline requirement intended to keep you in toe-to-toe combat, or is the intent to dodge in and out of combat with a mobility like ability?

Here in lies another issue.

I will be in a group of 4.

1 Will play an archer, I can guarantee that.
1 Will play a caster of some kind and will not be a melee person at all
1 I have no idea what he will be playing, he likes to change it up a lot but he played a melee person last campaign
last is me.

So I might be the only person in melee in a group of 4, or I might be the second person in melee.


Has anyone had any solid experience with Kensei Monk?
Our group always interpreted Kensei weapons are Monk weapons so I can use a rapier just fine however I find the archtype kind of odd.

They get to add +2 to their AC if they attack with an unarmed strike for the ATTACK action...
so that means I specialized in using a weapon that I have better armor with if I just hold it in my hand and kick you?
Or when I get to level 5 I am a weapon specialist who stabs you once but then punches you 3 times.

I almost wonder if that was supposed to be if you attack at least once with your Kensei weapon you get the +2 ac.

If there was just a simple way to make a Rapier count as a monk weapon I would just play a different archetype monk.

[asmartfellow]

ask your DM to let you swap out the elf weapon "Longsword" for "Rapier" and you'd be gold to go solid monk. My version only has the 1 lvl of fighter to take Rapier. That's it. Barring that, fight w/ a Rapier until lvl 4 when you get a FEAT and then learn to use it. Gonna be a hard 3 levels, but you have your unarmed combat to fall back on. OR, fight w/ a Dagger until then. THEN get a rapier. Hehe.

[DivisibleByZero]

If there was just a simple way to make a Rapier count as a monk weapon I would just play a different archetype monk.

I still don't see what Monk brings to the table for a fencing concept.
But if that's the route you wanted to go, then a short sword is a monk weapon. All it needs is a little refluff and it's a "rapier" that does d6 instead of d8.
And that only matters for the early levels. Once your Martial Arts damage increases to d8 at level 11, it effectively becomes a real rapier.

[Dudewithknives]

I still don't see what Monk brings to the table for a fencing concept.
But if that's the route you wanted to go, then a short sword is a monk weapon. All it needs is a little refluff and it's a "rapier" that does d6 instead of d8.
And that only matters for a few early levels. Once your Martial Arts damage increases to d8, it effectively becomes a real rapier.

Well the mains reason for the monk are:

1. I can pull off the unarmored style I was looking for.
2. They are fast, acrobatic, and their skill choices are pretty nice.
3. They get a bonus attack which helps out, on top of the bonus action unarmed attacks which not 100% fencer like but can be seen as kicks or a punch with the off hand.
4. Deflect arrow can easily be seen as deflecting with the weapon, just can't catch it, or just use my off hand to do it if I want to catch it for some reason.
5. Evasion seems like a fencer type of ability, and the rest of their abilities are nice defenses which are never a bad thing to have around.

You are right though, i could just use the Short Sword and flavor it more like a colichmarde style rapier which I could see doing 1D6.

I really miss my swashbuckler classes of old.

[Specter]

I still don't see what Monk brings to the table for a fencing concept.
But if that's the route you wanted to go, then a short sword is a monk weapon. All it needs is a little refluff and it's a "rapier" that does d6 instead of d8.
And that only matters for the early levels. Once your Martial Arts damage increases to d8 at level 11, it effectively becomes a real rapier.

Yep. The only thing where Kensei is unmatched is making the most attacks with a one-handed weapon, but that path means getting nothing else that really matters. Rogues and Fighters will rely on two stats while Monk will rely on three.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yep. The only thing where Kensei is unmatched is making the most attacks with a one-handed weapon, but that path means getting nothing else that really matters. Rogues and Fighters will rely on two stats while Monk will rely on three.

Kensai sucks.
You can be good with your weapon, or you can be a good monk. But you can't be both at the same time.
Unless, of course, you're using a monk weapon. And in that case, why are you playing a Kensai?
But don't worry, it'll be getting a rewrite, because everyone told the designers this in the survey.

[JellyPooga]

Kensai sucks.
You can be good with your weapon, or you can be a good monk. But you can't be both at the same time.
Unless, of course, you're using a monk weapon. And in that case, why are you playing a Kensai?
But don't worry, it'll be getting a rewrite, because everyone told the designers this in the survey.

Eh, just go Open Hand, use a shortsword and fluff your unarmed strikes, knock-downs, push-backs and so forth as utilising the sword to threaten, force and otherwise manipulate your foe. HP damage isn't meat damage, so you have free reign to fluff attacks and their results however you wish (within the confines of the result, of course).

[Dudewithknives]

Kensai sucks.
You can be good with your weapon, or you can be a good monk. But you can't be both at the same time.
Unless, of course, you're using a monk weapon. And in that case, why are you playing a Kensai?
But don't worry, it'll be getting a rewrite, because everyone told the designers this in the survey.

My DM and I have already agreed that a Kensei weapon count as Monk weapons.

So, that should mostly fix Kensei, other than the odd parry ability where you have to hit someone with an unarmed attack to use your weapon for defense.

Also, Kensei will never get a rewrite, I would bet plenty of money on it.

[Socratov]

So, I'm getting the idea that you are not going to play AL so that opens up quite some options in terms of refluffing and the like.

Now hold on to your hat because I will suggest something that hasn't been suggested at all, and might make not any sense until I am done explaining.

Barbarian.

Barbarians get rage, sure that does not seem very duellist-y, but hear me out: what if your version of rage is a rare sort of focus instead, like being in the zone, but really, really in the zone. You are so much in the zone, in fact, that blows against you deal less damage as you evade in a natural manner to minimise the damage you take. What's more, you are so razoredge-ily focused that once you hit, you deal more damage. You might not hit very often, but when you do, you bring the pain and you pity the fool.

Barbarians have Natural Defence: while wearing no armour you may add your Conmod to AC. Con is a good thing to have at the front line. So naturally you will be taking it. Why not bother to add it to your AC? I mean, you have been in duels, sometimes all it takes is a bit of endurance to win a fight.

Barbarians get reckless attack. Well, sometimes you need to dangly-bits-deep and all out to score that wining blow. Getting a scratch here is fine if it means turning someone's heart into shish-kebab.

You get extra attack, your totems might be inspiration from the animal kingdom (wasn't it a famous boxerduelist that said "dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee) and mostly about style, or if you can find someone to stockpile restoration slots for you to remove exhaustion levels you could go frenzy when you fancy yourself the quickest blade around. Oh and if you choose to go gauche-à-main you totally could take dual wielder for the +1 AC, and the offhand attack. Worth it. You get to move more (or should I say lunge), get less distracted, more able to stand in during duels (to not get beaten as you stick to 1 hp) etc. If you can convince your DM to allow the barbarian features to work with DEX instead of STR you are going to be golden. Otherwise, take longsword, pump STR and con, get some dex and go to town. Or suck it up and get a breastplate.

[Klorox]

It really is too bad that in a fantasy game like Dungeons & Dragons there is no way to play an optimal Errol Flynn or Man in Black.

Maybe your DM can get on board with the idea and start you with a magic ring that acts as a shield (+2 to AC) as long as there's nothing in that hand.

[DivisibleByZero]

It really is too bad that in a fantasy game like Dungeons & Dragons there is no way to play an optimal Errol Flynn or Man in Black.

Maybe your DM can get on board with the idea and start you with a magic ring that acts as a shield (+2 to AC) as long as there's nothing in that hand.

You don't need AC to play this concept, and you can absolutely play the Man in Black.
I'd build him as a Swashbuckler. Where is the problem?

[Klorox]

You don't need AC to play this concept, and you can absolutely play the Man in Black.
I'd build him as a Swashbuckler. Where is the problem?

The problem is it is sub-optimal. You should be using a shield.

[Drackolus]

The problem is it is sub-optimal. You should be using a shield.

Rogues don't get that option to begin with. Not having a bonus action attack stinks though, as it's another attempt at sneak attack.

[RickAllison]

The problem is it is sub-optimal. You should be using a shield.

Solution, fluff the shield as using the counterbalance of the open hand to perform defensive maneuvers. Call it good. The six pounds is from needing to keep the arm from being burdened. The action to don it (if relevant, which is not often) is getting into the appropriate stance.

[Specter]

It's suboptimal, but there are good reasons to have a free hand. You can grapple foes with it (something a Rogue should have an easy time doing), and you can pick up your foe's weapon after you disarm him (something a battlemaster enjoys). Plus using objects, opening doors, grabbing ropes and other minor effects.

[mephnick]

It really is too bad that in a fantasy game like Dungeons & Dragons there is no way to play an optimal Errol Flynn or Man in Black. .

Why does a Dex BM/Rogue not work? By level 5 you have a lightly armored duelist with cunning action, ripostes, disarms, dueling fighting style, action surge, sneak attack and expertise. A few more levels you get even more thematic stuff like uncanny dodge and fast hands. Or am I missing something?

*Oh you're throwing away the entire iconic concept because you can't make up the 2 AC loss from no shield (despite getting things like fast hands and duelist on your free hand)?

[Klorox]

Rogues don't get that option to begin with. Not having a bonus action attack stinks though, as it's another attempt at sneak attack.

Which is why most rogues dual wield. Which is why one weapon is sub optimal.

[Klorox]

Why does a Dex BM/Rogue not work? By level 5 you have a lightly armored duelist with cunning action, ripostes, disarms, dueling fighting style, action surge, sneak attack and expertise. A few more levels you get even more thematic stuff like uncanny dodge and fast hands. Or am I missing something?

*Oh you're throwing away the entire iconic concept because you can't make up the 2 AC loss from no shield (despite getting things like fast hands and duelist on your free hand)?

I'm not throwing away the idea. I'm saying it isn't optimal.

[Drackolus]

...dueling fighting style...

The style still works with a shield equipped. Kind of dumb, but there it is.
The other stuff is good though. You can also hold onto ledges and stuff with one hand (hard to use a rapier like that, though).
Being a melee rogue with the option of having a shield is really good with shield master due to athletics expertise, even if your strength is moderate (better if high, obviously). Sucks to miss out on it.
Honestly though, 2 ac is only really powerful if you already had over 20 ac anyway. Granted, going from 17-19 is nice, but not THAT nice. Ac gets more powerful the more you have. It's why eldritch knights can be so freaking hard to hurt with attacks. If you were a BM/thief, the increase in utility may be better than the loss in raw numbers in a lot of situations. You could even draw (free), dusarm (action), and pick up (bonus action). If you're clever and your DM isn't stolidly opposed to improvised actions. (For some reason. It happens.)
Major downside of being a thief is that you miss out on easier sneak attacks, but really, I think thief is mechanically more capable of taking advantage of that free hand. Swashbucklers really like dual-wielding.

[Occasional Sage]

Monk--one of my players refluffed Open Hand Monk as "student at an illegal fencing school"


That's a fantastic refluff.

[DivisibleByZero]

Which is why most rogues dual wield. Which is why one weapon is sub optimal.

You said that it's too bad you can't do it.
That is a very different thing from saying that it is (arguably) suboptimal.
Two points of AC isn't going to ruin your build when you have things like Uncanny Dodge. A bonus action attack from dual wielding isn't a huge loss when you have Cunning Action. The loss of a second attack isn't as big of a deal when you have Sneak Attack.

So I ask again, why can't you make the Man In Black?

[Rowan Wolf]

There are additional fighting styles in the 5th Ed conversion for Arcanis. Check out their Primer under the fighter section.

http://www.paradigmcampaigns.com/CampaignDocs.aspx?cid=3

[Sigreid]

I still think the best fencer build is take an open hand monk, house rule his monk weapons to rapier, short sword (for cutlasses), scimitar (for sabers), and daggers with them being able to use all of their monk powers through their weapon. Shouldn't affect balance much, if at all. Does a nice job of an unarmored fighter able to pull of spectacular physical stunts and feats of arms.

[Specter]

I still don't get what the monk fuss is all about for a duelist.

In terms of crunch, monk's AC makes you rely on a tertiary stat, so even if you spent the first 4 ASI's of your career boosting DEX and WIS to the max for AC20, you still have 14CON, which is a problem on its own, and no feats. I'd much rather have 17AC with one or two feats to spare and Uncanny Dodge. Monk also has no damage boosters other than spending Ki for an extra attack, and less melee defense than both Rogues and Fighters.

In terms of fluff, the original D&D Duelist had nothing to do with unarmed strikes, and none of the Ki features reflect that as well. You'd end up having to refluff an entire class to run with a concept in which the class is bad in the first place.

If you really want a one-handed duelist with good AC, there are other ways to do it:

- Dip Sorcerer/Wizard for Mage Armor for 18AC and 23 with Shield;
- Take a Barbarian level to add CON to your AC (a much better stat than WIS);

But still, you must realize you can't have the cake and eat it too; either put some armor/magic/class features on your build or don't complain about it.

[Saggo]

- Dip Sorcerer/Wizard for Mage Armor for 18AC and 23 with Shield;


One level as Dragon Sorcerer will give you a natural 13+Dex AC. Pairs well with Swashbuckler, as far as stats go.

[Sigreid]

Ok, this is all just my opinion but I'll try to share where I'm coming from on the monk.

Assuming you house rule that the monk stuff happens through the fencing weapon and not unarmed strikes the monk template gives:

1. A Decent to very good unarmored defense
2. Rapid precise strikes via flurry of blows
3. The ability to overcome resistance to non-magical weapons (assuming you house rule that the monk's magical unarmed strikes can go into the weapon)
4. Cool and swashbucklery physical stunts like rapidly getting up walls etc.
5. Parrying arrows and such with the fencing weapon (again, house ruling that martial arts powers are performed using the fencing weapon)
6. An aura of confidence that causes opponents to hesitate to attack you (Aura of peace re-fluffed)
7. Dazzling sword play that confuses your opponent, leaving him momentarily defenseless (stunning strike)
8. Moves that can knock your opponent down or force him to move to a particular location (the open hand ability, again just refocused through the fencing weapon)
9. The fun bit where you stab someone and they momentarily seem fine and then fall over dead (quivering palm through the fencing weapon)

And, they wouldn't call their power source ki, but discipline, luck, cool or whatever.

That's all I can contribute on this topic.

[Vorpalchicken]

10. No fear of the fire swamp (evasion)
11. Immunity to iocaine

[Unoriginal]

Why are you guys against a Swashbuckler-type character using a shield? They're *named* after the buckler. As in, the tiny shield.

[DivisibleByZero]

Why are you guys against a Swashbuckler-type character using a shield? They're *named* after the buckler. As in, the tiny shield.

He has the cinematic single rapier duelist concept in mind.

[Arkhios]

I used to be a fencer back in the days, and can concur that swashbuckler is the way to go for a fencer. The classic posture (sideways low stance with rapier up-front and the other hand behind you) did come in fact from wielding a parrying dagger in your off-hand, which was traditionally kept hidden from the opponent, behind your back, only to be brought up when needed.

Since Swashbuckler supports two-weapon fighting better than other rogues, taking Dual Wielder and wielding rapier and dagger is very thematic.

[Klorox]

You said that it's too bad you can't do it.
That is a very different thing from saying that it is (arguably) suboptimal.
Two points of AC isn't going to ruin your build when you have things like Uncanny Dodge. A bonus action attack from dual wielding isn't a huge loss when you have Cunning Action. The loss of a second attack isn't as big of a deal when you have Sneak Attack.

So I ask again, why can't you make the Man In Black?

I spoke too harshly. Of course you can make the Man in Black. But if you were to multiclass a swashbuckler/ battle master, wouldn't you choose to use a shield 99% of the time?

This is why I suggested a minor magic item that emulates a shield.

[N810]

I still don't see what Monk brings to the table for a fencing concept.
But if that's the route you wanted to go, then a short sword is a monk weapon. All it needs is a little refluff and it's a "rapier" that does d6 instead of d8.
And that only matters for the early levels. Once your Martial Arts damage increases to d8 at level 11, it effectively becomes a real rapier.

Re-fluff Short Sword to Small Sword.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_sword

[2D8HP]

Parrying daggers have already been mentioned.

I've only seen it on film in:
Sword of Sherwood Forest (http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0054358/), but the use of "parrying" daggers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger), was common in the era of duels. (http://umich.edu/~ece/student_projects/martial_arts/swords.html)

http://umich.edu/~ece/student_projects/martial_arts/images/throatcut.jpg
In fact a Rapier and a Dagger were found in the excavation of the Globe Theatre (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17675002-shakespeare-s-restless-world).
I suppose you could "re-skin" the dagger as a shield?


Half-Elf Swashbuckler 9/Battlemaster 11. Dueling fighting style. Riposte, Disarming Attack and Feinting Attack as maneuvers. Defensive Duelist feat. (yes, Riposte is also reaction, but DD is forever and sometimes you'll need it).

You're all set!


If I had a better memory for "maneuvers", I'd go for this build.

Sounds AWESOME!

[RickAllison]

I could almost see a cinematic fencer as a Thief, using the free hand to interact with the environment to get the upper hand while pressing the offensive. Think of Inigo Montoya using the beam to transition from a higher elevation safely to his sword, Jack Sparrow and Will Turner's duel in the smithy as they used the chains and the loose boards to throw the opponent off-balance, or the fight between Flynn and Rathbone in Adventures of Robin Hood where they are flinging candles and flipping tables rather than straight fighting. Think of swordsmen drawing their blade through flaming pitch, or swinging on a chandelier to catch an opponent. Not a realistic fighting style, but very good in any case.

[CaptainSarathai]

I cannot recommend 2 levels of Warlock enough. That's the fastest route to Unarmored Defense, with Armor of Shadow for at-will Mage Armor. Nabbing Devil's Sight gets you Darkvision, but I'd actually go Fiendish Vigor for at-will False Life (DM should rule this at +8THP as long as you're not in a hurry to cast it)

The other advantage to Warlock is Hex. This will close your gap with a Fighter for damage, albeit against a single target (but you're a Duellist, do you fight mobs?)


My personal build is a Fighter/Warlock, with room for levels of Rogue if need be.
Fighter 1
- I went Dual Wielder, because with Hex this will outstrip a Fighter for damage, and keep pace until they gets 3rd attack at 11th level. You could just as easily go Duellist for your theme.

Warlock 1
- Yay, hex! I was playing with AL rules and thus had to pick Fiend or Fey here, really. First choice would almost certainly be Hexblade. Again, very "duellist" in nature.
Also picked up Armor of Agathys for later.

Warlock 2
- Mage Armor here. False Life.

Warlock 3
- Blade. Nothing useful here beyond Extra Attack down the road.

Warlock 4
- Now is where I confess that my build is based around wearing heavy armor, because this is where I took Heavy Armor Master. I began as Human and took Sentinel. You could do that here as well, or take Defensive Duellist, Warcaster, or the ASI.

Warlock 5
- Extra attack. Your max attack with Hex is now 6d6+3xStat, which is equivalent to Fighter 11 with a Greatsword and no feats.

Fighter 2
- Dead level really. Action Surge is nice though

Fighter 3
- Battlemaster. Parry. Riposte. Whatever else you like.
At this point (8th) I consider my build "on line." With Sentinel, Riposte, and AoA+Parry (Parry for extra mileage on AoA), I create a situation where my chosen target simply cannot win.
Hit me: AoA damage
Miss me: Riposte attack
Attack someone else: Sentinel attack
Move away: AO

Level 9+
This is where there's room for Rogue. I would go as far as Rogue 5, for Uncanny Dodge. This would replace Parry, freeing up more Maneuvers dice.
Additionally, you are limited to 1 SA on your turn, but can also add SAs to Reaction attacks. In this case - Sentinel, Riposte, and OAs.
The question is whether you take Swashbuckler, for all the fun that entails or if you go Arcane Trickster solely for a few extra Spell Slots to use for Hex.

In my build, giving up Fighter just means losing out on Riposte, and setting back the "extended usage" of AoA by 2 levels. I went to Warlock 5 for the third level slots, the extra 5 damage/HP from AoA (I think it's only really useful starting at 3rd).

[Two-Penny]

I'm playing a Rogue (3), Swashbuckler / Bard (4) College of Swords. When I find myself in a narrow passage or on a dock, it's truly horrendous. I leap forward, stab stab, leap back out of range, then do it again. Occasionally I throw in a Vicious Mock just to spice things up.
Take Duel Wielder for your first feat then Two-Weapon fighting for your fighting style. That lets you use a rapier in each hand and get your prof bonus on both attacks. In a one on one fight with your flanks protected . . . you can slice and parry all day long.

I intend to go to Bard 6 (for the extra attack) then start moving up in Rogue (for the sneak attack bonus).
As for feats, I'm a wood elf so I intend to take Elvin Accuracy, Mobile, and Martial Adept (maybe not in that order).
- Martial Adept - you get two maneuvers. When I get there, I'm going Reposte, and Lunge. Reposte gives you an opportunity attack if someone misses you; Lunge gives you 5' more reach. Both with an inspiration die for extra damage.
- Elvin Accuracy works with Dex/Finesse attacks, so with your rapiers, anytime you have advantage, you get three dice instead of two
- Mobile - some of it is wasted as it duplicates some of your rogue features, but you end up with a +10' to your walking speed.

And then there's Blade Flourish. Several options, but all of them give you a d6 bonus on damage (or d8 at higher levels)

So, at that point, I viciously mock my opponent (giving me advantage next turn), then I'll leap into the fray from a distance (my speed is 55' but I lunge 5' beyond that), stab, stab, (bonus action) stab. I get the full modifiers to all that damage. Blade flourish gives me an extra d6, sneak attack gives me 2d6, My Lunge gives me another d6.

So damage (assuming three hits) is 3d8+4d6+18 (high dex with finesse weapons) or an average of 46 points. Then my opponent tries to hit me and misses . . . another d8+6 or 10.5 points. 56 hp of damage in round one.

If I forego my bonus action attack . . . I can dash (cunning action) and not worry about damage . . . unless he can move 110' feet to reach me.

[Aett_Thorn]

Thread necro, ahoy!

[Bjarkmundur]

Huh, never thought of multiclassing swashbuckler with a battlemaster. I've got some reading to do.

Swashbuckler 3 / Battlemaster 5 sounds like a sweet duelist. I don't even think it matters how you arrange the levels, since the first 3 levels of both classes are pretty sweet.

[Speely]

Huh, never thought of multiclassing swashbuckler with a battlemaster. I've got some reading to do.

Probably an unpopular opinion, but they are both better as single classes.

[Bjarkmundur]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but they are both better as single classes.

I always thought so too, but the sheer amount of stuff you get is definitely not bad.

[Speely]

I always thought so too, but the sheer amount of stuff you get is definitely not bad.

No lies detected. It's a very synergistic combo for sure. I just think the options you get for going single-class are better. I could be very wrong here, as I am no expert.

[Blood of Gaea]

Honestly, I think the best way to go here is either going to be Kensei Monk or 5 Battlemaster/X Swashbuckler.

Monks can't use shields, and the Rogue/Fighter can just take athletics to shove/grapple with their open hand when needed.

Kensei can just fluff unarmed attacks as fast cuts.



I suppose you could "re-skin" the dagger as a shield?

That seems silly to me, as rapier and buckler was not uncommon and is actually a pretty common HEMA practice even today.

Pretty much anyone who trained with a rapier that was going out picking for a fight like a D&D adventurer would be taking a buckler.

In fact, the term "swashbuckler" is a compound of swash, which basically means swaggering, and buckler, for buckler.

Personally, I find it kind of funny the subclass doesn't get shields. It's literally in their name.

[SVamp]

Ok, bear with me here, this might seem far fetched but...

Paladin OR battlemaster 6/sorcerer X . Paladin for crazy burst potential and great saves, battle master for Neat tricks like tripping etc that refresh on a short rest and an extra feat.

Elven accuracy, war caster for sweet opportunity attacks & extra concentration, dueling fighting style.

You can now quicken a greenflame blade or BB, and still get your two regular attacks. Use your concentration on shadow blade until you get a magic weapon, then haste or holy weapon if going divine soul.

Draconic is a decent option too: cha modifier to green flame blade, extra hps, always on mage armour.

The paladin version does crazy damage while both versions are pretty tanky (shield spell and absorb elements to mitigate damage, both versions can do a quicken hold person/monster plus regular attacks, except paladin can unleash smites on the auto critical hits)

Both versions have a lot of flair, having a very charming personality while actually using cha for something useful during combat. Just need to get past the “holy” idea of the paladin, and focus more on “dedicated to a vow of X, (vengeance works well)”. If going paladin, start sorc 1/paladin 5 or 6/rest sorc

Half elf should work well for both variants while providing extra skills.

[bobofwestgate]

One of my favorite classes back in the day was the Duelist.

I want to run another one but there is no specific class with a subclass that does it really well like they used to.

Rogue has the swashbuckler.
Monk has Kensai.
Battlemaster fighter could be flavored to do it somewhat.
Possibly a pact blade warlock with the right invocations.

All I really want is a fencer style duelist who specializes in a rapier and no off hand.

The issue is how to have an ac and hp to not get splattered in the front line, and be able to pull my weight in the group.

The only requirement is that it really needs to have darkvision, I would like to wear no armor but I could live with the idea of glamored studded leather.

Any race is fine.

I had a idea for a shipwrecked sailor(or pirate) who is pulled out of the surf by monks of a monastary that secluded itself on an island surrounded by dangerous reefs. The monks took him in nursed him back to health. The entire time refusing to give up the Rapier given to him at the time of death by his beloved captain. They eventually agree to teach him, accept him into their order. Incorporating that rapier he refuses to give up into his training. He swears revenge on those who sunk the ship that had his friends and family on it and they teach him what he needs to know to track down his enemies.

Kensai monk w/ rapier. splashing two levels of Ranger(revised)