When did the Saphire Guard learn about the Crimson Mantle?

[nethar]

Been a long time reader and recently decided to reread the whole comic including the prequel books.
When reaching the Trial in Azur City and the Crayon Exposition I notice something that puzzles me.

Soon and Lirian learned about the Rift 66 years before the story takes place. The Dark One learned about the same Rift (Lirian's) when 65 years before the story begins and creates the Crimson Mantle granting knowledge of that Rift to the wearer after that.
Redcloak dons the Mantle when his village is slaughtered 34 years before the story by the Saphir Guard.

My question is given that the Mantle only grants knowledge of Lirian's Gate, and Soon being the only one who kept to the "No intervining.. No just visting..." part (Lirian and Dorukan kept up their relationship while Serini and Draketooth kept in touch for the betting pool) when and how did the Saphire Guard learn about the Mantle and the thread it poses to Lirian's gate?

Is the question answered somewhere in bonus material? (I don't own print versions of Paladin Blues and War and XP's)

[Keltest]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.

[nethar]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.

While they apparently have no idea that the Mantle is a powerful artefact Miko clearly recognised the Goblin in a Red Cloak as a known thread. But given that this was after the distruction of Lirian's gate and the Trial this might only be her recognising Redcloak from the Orders discription at the trial.

Thanks for that fast answer.

[Jasdoif]

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins. However, they didn't know the Mantle itself was of particular importance, which is why they never captured it.To be more specific:


It is not generally known by non-goblins that the physical cloak itself is the source of the power. To the paladins, the title "Bearer of the Crimson Mantle" just means that the guy who wants to destroy reality gets to wear a red cloak. Since they don't know that the cloak is what they are actually seeking, they have never actually "gotten hold of it" at all, not in any meaningful way. It has always been passed down just before being captured. It's only existed for about 60 years, remember, and Redcloak has owned it for half of that. So it's only been passed along 3-4 times. In all of those cases, either the goblins managed to swipe it off of the corpse of the old Bearer before the paladins noticed, or they stole it back before the paladins could identify its significance.

[nethar]

Thats all my questions answered, Thank you folks

[B. Dandelion]

Thats all my questions answered, Thank you folks

Hang on a second, OP, I'm not sure it was.


I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins.

Nothing in the Giant's quote that Jasdoif posted validates any of this! The Giant touches on the second part of the assertion, that the paladins hadn't known the Crimson Mantle was an actual artifact. But there's zip about a prophecy. I own all the physical books and if there's a bonus strip or commentary that touches on a goblin-related prophecy of doom, it's news to me. Maybe it's part of the updated commentary in the new PDFs I've been too poor to buy yet, but I've been reading rumors to this effect for years and sort of doubt that they were retroactively verified only recently.

That said, I'm not sure they needed a prophecy. We saw the Order of the Scribble go up against the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle and his army as part of the crayon flashbacks in Start of Darkness. Then in the strip itself Redcloak says Kraagor killed thousands of goblins. Having that many goblins following the high priest of their evil god in order to seize a rift is a pretty good starting point for Soon to be able to work it out that the Dark One and his followers are an ongoing potential threat to reality. That the goblins only knew about one of the rifts is maybe something he didn't figure out, but them being a threat to one rift is certainly enough to presume they are a threat to the others as well.

We might learn more about this as we learn more about the Order of the Scribble.

[Kish]

I'm not aware of any such prophecy, and I'm pretty sure I've read all the print-only content except for the calendars at this point.

[Lacuna Caster]

To be more specific:

Remind me how long Shojo was on the throne, again? It seems rather likely that he at minimum knew about these crusades, even if he wasn't directly responsible for issuing the orders.

[Jasdoif]

Remind me how long Shojo was on the throne, again?About 47 years. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

[Lacuna Caster]

Cripes. That's a minimum of a 17-year overlap. He'd have to have been complicit, then.

[NerdyKris]

In stopping goblins who were actively trying to unleash a world destroying monster.

Just because some of the paladins crossed the line doesn't mean the entire mission was wrong or that Shojo is directly responsible for war crimes. Like Rich said elsewhere, we don't see how many paladins fell due to that battle, and we certainly don't see which ones are court martialed and jailed upon returning to Azure City for their actions.

[Kish]

Azure City was a nation dedicated to all that was good and holy...but in many ways failed to live up to its ideals.

[...]

Most damning, though, is a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods.
I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

[Bavarian itP]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

We have only Belkar's word that he was chaotic good, haven't we? ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html )
Shojo himself only claims to be non-lawful. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html )

On the other hand, Miko ignored the "bring them back alive" orders easily enough, so maybe other paladins were a bit overzealous too (not as much as Miko, obviously).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

Is it just me, or is the war and calamity that befell Azure City over the course of the OotS plotline actually, in some twisted way, ultimately a good thing for the beleaguered city-state? As in purifying the more questionable facets of their society in the process?

Sure, at present, there have been tens of thousands of casualties and the survivors are a refugee nation hiding out in some former elven fortifications, arguably still without a true permanent home. But at the same time, their ordeal has rid them of their speciesist and genocidal former leadership along with much of their originally rather corrupt and backstabbing aristocratic class. It seems to me that, whatever form the Azurites take as a nation as an outcome of the OotS story (whether reclaiming Azure City or moving on to a new homeland), they will emerge a more truly Good-aligned nation for it all.

[B. Dandelion]

Like Rich said elsewhere, we don't see how many paladins fell due to that battle,

He did say that.


and we certainly don't see which ones are court martialed and jailed upon returning to Azure City for their actions.

He pretty much implied the opposite of that happening, however.


Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

[Lacuna Caster]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.
No, I'm increasingly of a similar opinion.


On the other hand, Miko ignored the "bring them back alive" orders easily enough, so maybe other paladins were a bit overzealous too (not as much as Miko, obviously).
I think one of the paladins on the scene mentioned 'leave no survivors', which suggests that the slaughter was a deliberate plan, not just a few random mistakes by certain individuals. I may be misquoting though(?)

I broadly agree that Miko may not have been oh-so-atypical, but I suspect 'bring em back alive' was a retcon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505940-Artwork-we-will-never-see-of-events-that-never-quite-occurred&p=21590547&viewfull=1#post21590547). (She also had the Order framed by the LG, immediately stopped when smiting didn't work, and then brought everyone- including Belkar- back alive. For all her flaws, we never see her kill toddlers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.)

[factotum]

I think one of the paladins on the scene mentioned 'leave no survivors', which suggests that the slaughter was a deliberate plan, not just a few random mistakes by certain individuals.

That paladin could have been saying that in the belief that it would encourage the villagers to reveal where the Bearer was hiding, and the others then took it and ran with it. We can't judge what orders they were given back at base from that statement.

[Lacuna Caster]

That paladin could have been saying that in the belief that it would encourage the villagers to reveal where the Bearer was hiding, and the others then took it and ran with it. We can't judge what orders they were given back at base from that statement.
No, I just checked SoD. The exact words are "Exterminate the rest and let us be done here", coming from what appears to be the leader of the expedition after the Bearer had already been killed. Nobody appears to object, which suggests either a surprisingly large contingent of the Guard went AWOL sans orders from their commander, or this was part of their intended plan.

If Kish's quote is accurate, "a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods" suggests that even the 12 were on-board with this. Is Shojo really the only one out of the loop?

[littlebum2002]

Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.

[Keltest]

Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.

Youre forgetting Shojo's father.

[littlebum2002]

Youre forgetting Shojo's father.

It's in my calculations. Here I'll make it clearer:


Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.
All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years?

So We'll say Soon handed over control of the city to Shoj's father about 56 years before the comic started. In that panel Shojo looks about 5.

And if Shojo took control of the city 47 years before the start of the comic, then his father only ruled for 9 years before Shojo took over, making him about 14 when he started ruling, making him about 61 now.

He certainly looks MUCH older than that.



Either

A) Shojo was 61 when he died, an just looked to be in his 80's due to unhealthy living,

C) Shojo was a REALLY small teenager when his father became ruler, and was in his 70's when he died, or

C) The Order of the Scribble found the rifts, took control of them, made gates, Soon founded an entire city, ran it, then got old and handed control of it over to Shojo's father in a matter of a few years, making Shojo in his late 60's when he died.

[Jasdoif]

Soon founded an entire cityAzure City predated Soon.

[martianmister]

I'm pretty sure Soon never ruled Azure City.


Azure City predated Soon.

There is a narrative weirdness about Soon's origin story. Apparently he's from, alread existing, Azure City, yet the first time he seen the rifts in Elven Woods.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's not implausible that Soon would go to visit the elven lands on a honeymoon trip- the elves and azurites canonically have good relations. The rift in AC was also the smallest, so it's possible it opened latest.


If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?

[Random Poster]

If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?
Well, Miko certainly believed that she received direct communication from the gods. That worked out really well for everyone.

Also, as I understand it, the gods (not just the 12 southern gods, but ALL gods except the Dark One) had long ago agreed to a strict NDA regarding the rifts (and by extension, the gates and the people guarding them), so they couldn't have warned the paladins about Shojo, even if his actions had otherwise warranted a divine intervention.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, Miko certainly believed that she received direct communication from the gods. That worked out really well for everyone.
That actually seems to be surprisingly common in Azure City- even O'Chul essentially resorts to 'this must be what the Gods want' when he's captured and tortured- but more generally I have to wonder why they wouldn't chat with middle-management on occasion. (I mean, we know that Hel communicated directly with her high priest.) As the angry GM would put it (http://theangrygm.com/alignment-in-dd-5e-s-or-get-off-the-pot/):

"If you think about it from the god’s perspective, it’s kind of weird to let someone that valuable slip away from you. The whole “well, you did one evil thing too many so I took away your spells” is really a dumb management technique. Hell, when I f$&% up at work, I get written up before I get fired. Within reason. If the lawful good paladin of Bahamut gleefully burns down a puppy orphanage, you have to let him go.

But I am a big fan of using omens, dreams, visions, and ultimately even divine agents and other members of the clergy to stop a character from falling too far out of favor. It actually makes divine characters MORE interesting in my world because divine upper management wants to work with them. Clerics aren’t just waiting around for the hammer of divine judgment to fall."


Also, as I understand it, the gods (not just the 12 southern gods, but ALL gods except the Dark One) had long ago agreed to a strict NDA regarding the rifts (and by extension, the gates and the people guarding them), so they couldn't have warned the paladins about Shojo, even if his actions had otherwise warranted a divine intervention.
Huh? The paladins were the people guarding the Gates, and perfectly aware of the gates and rifts. None of which is relevant to Shojo's antics.

[Keltest]

That actually seems to be surprisingly common in Azure City- even O'Chul essentially resorts to 'this must be what the Gods want' when he's captured and tortured- but more generally I have to wonder why they wouldn't chat with middle-management on occasion. (I mean, we know that Hel communicated directly with her high priest.) As the angry GM would put it (http://theangrygm.com/alignment-in-dd-5e-s-or-get-off-the-pot/):

"If you think about it from the god’s perspective, it’s kind of weird to let someone that valuable slip away from you. The whole “well, you did one evil thing too many so I took away your spells” is really a dumb management technique. Hell, when I f$&% up at work, I get written up before I get fired. Within reason. If the lawful good paladin of Bahamut gleefully burns down a puppy orphanage, you have to let him go.

But I am a big fan of using omens, dreams, visions, and ultimately even divine agents and other members of the clergy to stop a character from falling too far out of favor. It actually makes divine characters MORE interesting in my world because divine upper management wants to work with them. Clerics aren’t just waiting around for the hammer of divine judgment to fall."


Huh? The paladins were the people guarding the Gates, and perfectly aware of the gates and rifts. None of which is relevant to Shojo's antics.

I kind of got the impression that what Hel did was unusual and in part only possible because she has a grand total of one cleric at the time. The stickverse gods are not omnipotent and don't even really appear to have the normal "be in 50 places at once" thing that most D&D gods can do. Thor, for example, probably just has too much going on to bother watching all his clerics to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow, if he were even inclined to.

[Jasdoif]

If Kish's quote is accurate, this also suggests the Gods have some method of direct communication with the paladins. Did it never occur to the fomer to tell the latter that Shojo was up to all kinds of shenanigans?Why would they? The Snarl is a threat to their existence, one the Godsmoot could still decide is worth destroying the world and every paladin over; Shojo placing the Gates above the oaths was in line with their interests. Interests they felt important enough to turn twenty four blind eyes towards paladins slaughtering innocents, after all.

[Kish]

Even good gods seem to use a different alignment scale than mortals in the OotS universe. And yes, by that I do mean "a form of good other than that which is actually good." I would be quite surprised to learn that every soi-distant Good god in the recent vote was on the "no" side and even more surprised to learn that all of them were among the very few who mentioned, or even implied, concern for mortal life as a reason for so being.

[Ruck]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.


We have only Belkar's word that he was chaotic good, haven't we? ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html )
Shojo himself only claims to be non-lawful. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html )

I'm pretty sure we have Word of Giant on this as well. Shojo's last words (well, second-to-last words) I think speak to why he's Good: "Everything I did, I did for my people." Not for personal gain-- and we don't have any indicators he's lying when he says it. "Good" doesn't mean "Perfect"; we see Shojo use lies and deception and manipulation to do what he does, but everything we actually see him do in the strip is for the purpose of combating an existential threat to both Azure City and the world at large.


Is it just me, or is the war and calamity that befell Azure City over the course of the OotS plotline actually, in some twisted way, ultimately a good thing for the beleaguered city-state? As in purifying the more questionable facets of their society in the process?
I wouldn't say "good" necessarily, but certainly dramatically appropriate, given that it was their extremism toward the goblin race that, in the long run, brought this about.


Wait a minute.

Soon learned about the Rift 66 years before the comic.
Then, they learned about the rifts, secured them, and created gates around them.
Then, Soon ruled Azure City long enough to go from having black hair to having gray hair, at which time Shojo was a VERY young boy.

All of this must have taken awhile, maybe 10 years? And at the time Shojo looks 5?
And if Shojo was in control of the city for 47 years, then he took control of the city when he was about 14, and he's about 61 now? He certainly looks much older than that.
No, Soon never ruled Azure City. He created and headed the Sapphire Guard, which was not the same office as the ruler of Azure City until he turned it over to Shojo's father when he was near death. (I forget where I read this, but I think Rich wrote it somewhere, and also it's really the only way to make the timelines make sense.)

[factotum]

Shojo's last words (well, second-to-last words) I think speak to why he's Good: "Everything I did, I did for my people." Not for personal gain-- and we don't have any indicators he's lying when he says it. "Good" doesn't mean "Perfect"; we see Shojo use lies and deception and manipulation to do what he does, but everything we actually see him do in the strip is for the purpose of combating an existential threat to both Azure City and the world at large.


And of course, lying and deception in pursuit of Good ends is what makes him Chaotic--it doesn't make him non-Good.

[Goblin_Priest]

He might have been a liar, and a non-paladin, but why would the gods cast him out?

He did the job pretty darn well. Better than the paladins probably would have, given the city's political landscape. He offered a stable government that allowed for law to be upheld, and only broke it himself sparingly (I think I recalled some arguing he might have never broken it).

The moment he died, assassination attempts resumed, the city's factions split up, and as a result they were too weak to put up a resistance against the incoming evil army. Would Xykon's assault have worked if Shojo had still been in charge? Given that he got his butt saved by Miko going mad, and that her going mad and him dying are entertwined, I'm inclined to believe that no, Gobbotopia wouldn't exist today if Shojo were still alive. The defenses would have been stronger, with presumably more noble houses joining in, Xykon and Redcloak would have been killed, and the masses of zombified dead hobgoblins, if I remember the rules correctly, would then have started gnawing on the rest of the goblinoid army.

Shojo was extremely good for Azure City. He was the hero they needed, not the one they deserved. ;)

[Lacuna Caster]

Even good gods seem to use a different alignment scale than mortals in the OotS universe. And yes, by that I do mean "a form of good other than that which is actually good." I would be quite surprised to learn that every soi-distant Good god in the recent vote was on the "no" side and even more surprised to learn that all of them were among the very few who mentioned, or even implied, concern for mortal life as a reason for so being.
I'm still puzzled by why the Gods can't just hold a vote on lobbing thunderbolts at Xykon. Or, like, order all their senior clerics to head for Kraagor's Dungeon and drop bombs on Redcloak. The North is Thor's domain, right? Thor does get thunderbolts?


Why would they? The Snarl is a threat to their existence, one the Godsmoot could still decide is worth destroying the world and every paladin over; Shojo placing the Gates above the oaths was in line with their interests. Interests they felt important enough to turn twenty four blind eyes towards paladins slaughtering innocents, after all.

I kind of got the impression that what Hel did was unusual and in part only possible because she has a grand total of one cleric at the time. The stickverse gods are not omnipotent and don't even really appear to have the normal "be in 50 places at once" thing that most D&D gods can do. Thor, for example, probably just has too much going on to bother watching all his clerics to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow, if he were even inclined to.
The Gods themselves might not be omnipresent, but they do appear to have an extensive celestial bureaucracy for the sole purpose of monitoring their mortal underlings' performance- and the 12 did appear to fire Miko in person. Even if junior clerics can't reasonably expect personal grooming by their CEO, somebody up there is watching. Given that, is it so unreasonable to expect a performance review every couple a weeks? Some hands-on mentoring? A strongly-worded memo about how they feel you're not a good fit for this role?

Miko and Shojo were among the 12's most important mortal agents, which suggests they've got some questionable hiring practices (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/your-companys-culture-who-you-hire-fire-promote-part-1-sepah):

"The biggest mistake that I see companies make is that they will retain competent *******s because they are seen as critical to the company or difficult to replace. However, by doing so, they not only passively reinforce the competent *******’s behavior by tolerating and promoting them, but they implicitly send the message to the rest of the company that you can basically get away with murder so long as leadership believes you to be indispensable. You can imagine what kind of culture this creates over time."


And of course, lying and deception in pursuit of Good ends is what makes him Chaotic--it doesn't make him non-Good.
Deceit, manipulation, perversion of justice, and probable complicity in war-crimes.

I've belaboured the point elsewhere, but the thing about saving the universe is that while it's very valuable from a utilitarian standpoint, in terms of revealing personal virtue it's actually perfectly neutral- the world contains you, so saving it is saving yourself. That just means you're not an idiot. It's what you do to get there that speaks to character.

[Lacuna Caster]

The moment he died, assassination attempts resumed, the city's factions split up, and as a result they were too weak to put up a resistance against the incoming evil army. Would Xykon's assault have worked if Shojo had still been in charge? Given that he got his butt saved by Miko going mad, and that her going mad and him dying are entertwined, I'm inclined to believe that no, Gobbotopia wouldn't exist today if Shojo were still alive. The defenses would have been stronger, with presumably more noble houses joining in, Xykon and Redcloak would have been killed, and the masses of zombified dead hobgoblins, if I remember the rules correctly, would then have started gnawing on the rest of the goblinoid army.
(Technically, Xykon and RC only escaped the throne room because the rules for overland flight were ignored. By rights, Miko would have destroyed them both.)

I'm a little skeptical that Shojo would have been all that helpful during the siege, since he'd have had to be in prison and Hinjo might not have been able to follow the... kind of advice that Shojo would offer. I dimly remember someone saying that Xykon could have won the battle essentially single-handedly by pouring down meteor swarms outside of missile range- having an army just sped up the process.

I also have to remind you that the assault on Redcloak's village happened under Shojo's watch. Without that, Xykon might not exist and Azure City might never have been besieged.

[Kish]

I don't know who said that, but in light of the...devotion to a particular approach to D&D espoused by many on this board, I'm not really surprised that someone did. However, I suspect that person was, shall we say, not in tune with anything Rich was ever likely to write.

(I'm not saying it either would or wouldn't be accurate in the mythical D&D world in which every seventeenth-level wizard chain-gates solars; I'm explicitly not saying anything about that, as completely irrelevant to the comic.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Deceit, manipulation, perversion of justice, and probable complicity in war-crimes.

All those crimes can be applied to Robin Hood, the proto-stereotypical Chaotic Good character, so again: lying & cheating does not make Shojo Evil, just Chaotic*. At its broadest sense, Good and Evil deal with intentions; Legal and Chaotic with methods. As long as Shojo did intend to do Good for his people, what methods he used will not change that. Even allowing the Paladin's attacks on goblin villages could be done by a Good character, if their intention really was to protect the Azurites from raids/ensure free access to commerce/sustain the integrity of the universe. And no, just because "the universe includes him" that doesn't make it neutral, because what matters is his intentions, and if he was not thinking of himself, that is still Good.

Indeed, two Good rulers could go to war over a piece of land both need to feed their respective populations, cause the death of thousands and still be Good, if they never intended the war for anything other than improving their populations' lots in life. Yes, we can discuss of "a higher Good" that would attempt to figure out a resolution that was best for both countries at once, but that is a never-ending escalation of increasing the breadth of Good required. Take Elan: he is Good, but incapable of thinking more globally than his immediate companions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html). Did it make him Evil that in touching the rune, he endangered the whole universe? Obviously not - his intentions where Good.

Yes, none of this has anything to do with whether someone is a good person in the real world, where intentions cannot be ascertained. But mixing in RL morality into D&D morality never works anyway.

Grey Wolf

*The Chaotic Good motto could easily be "Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right." (Salvor Hardin, Foundation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(Isaac_Asimov_novel)), Isaac Asimov)

[littlebum2002]

Deceit, manipulation, perversion of justice, and probable complicity in war-crimes.

You mean the war crimes that the Lawful Good Paladins committed? Considering the Paladins who committed those "war crimes" were stll Good enough to retain their Paladin powers, it's safe to say that those war crimes are not seen as an Evil act in this world. So unless you're claiming that Shojo's knowing about the crimes was worse than the crimes themselves, that isn't enough to make him Neutral.

Deceit and manipulation are clearly signs of Chaos, and have nothing to do with the Good/Evil scale. Unless, of course, you're going to tell us that Haley lying and breaking laws to help Good people escape the Evil prisons of Tyrania was an Evil act.






I'm a little skeptical that Shojo would have been all that helpful during the siege, since he'd have had to be in prison and Hinjo might not have been able to follow the... kind of advice that Shojo would offer. I dimly remember someone saying that Xykon could have won the battle essentially single-handedly by pouring down meteor swarms outside of missile range- having an army just sped up the process.


You didn't actually answer the question. The question was "Would Shojo have helped in the battle if he were still in charge?", not "Would Shojo have helped during the battle if he were in prison?"



(Technically, Xykon and RC only escaped the throne room because the rules for overland flight were ignored. By rights, Miko would have destroyed them both.)

Which rule was ignored?

[factotum]

At its broadest sense, Good and Evil deal with intentions; Legal and Chaotic with methods. As long as Shojo did intend to do Good for his people, what methods he used will not change that.

The perfect in-comic example of this is Roy's assessment by the deva after he died. Him lying to his companions to get them to do what he wanted was never noted as being a problem on the Good/Evil axis, only that the Deva would be justified in shipping him off to the Neutral Good afterlife because of that.


Considering the Paladins who committed those "war crimes" were stll Good enough to retain their Paladin powers, it's safe to say that those war crimes are not seen as an Evil act in this world.

Except we have Word of Giant that those paladins maybe did *not* retain their powers. I'm pretty sure he's also gone on record as saying that slaughtering children is *always* an evil act, no matter who or what the children in question are, and there were plenty of children in that village when it was attacked.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except we have Word of Giant that those paladins maybe did *not* retain their powers. I'm pretty sure he's also gone on record as saying that slaughtering children is *always* an evil act, no matter who or what the children in question are, and there were plenty of children in that village when it was attacked.

I believe he said that children can't be Evil, rather than slaughtering it is automatically Evil, but I don't think we need word of author to conclude that slaughtering children is Evil or indeed evil.

That said, I don't think that Shojo sent the Paladins out to slaughter children - he'd have sent them out to hunt down the religious leaders and weaken the military power of the goblin tribes. (Soon-to-be-ex) Paladins going above-and-beyond orders and slaughtering everyone in sight can't be pinned on Shojo.

GW

[Lacuna Caster]

I don't know who said that, but in light of the...devotion to a particular approach to D&D espoused by many on this board, I'm not really surprised that someone did. However, I suspect that person was, shall we say, not in tune with anything Rich was ever likely to write.
I'm aware that Xykon would almost certainly run out of patience well aware before that strategy succeeded. My overall point was simply that having more or less soldiers on the walls would make almost no difference to the battle's outcome. The only players who really mattered were Xykon, RC, and the martyrs. Having an excess of hobgoblin soldiers was useful for subsequent pacification and admin duties, but that only matters to Redcloak.


Which rule was ignored?
The throne room is larger than 40 feet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm). I don't mind house-rules, but to me this seems very reminiscent of GMs' selectively ignoring outcomes because the plot isn't going how they wanted.


That said, I don't think that Shojo sent the Paladins out to slaughter children - he'd have sent them out to hunt down the religious leaders and weaken the military power of the goblin tribes. (Soon-to-be-ex) Paladins going above-and-beyond orders and slaughtering everyone in sight can't be pinned on Shojo.
No no no. I'm not playing this game either.

[Jasdoif]

The Gods themselves might not be omnipresent, but they do appear to have an extensive celestial bureaucracy for the sole purpose of monitoring their mortal underlings' performance- and the 12 did appear to fire Miko in person. Even if junior clerics can't reasonably expect personal grooming by their CEO, somebody up there is watching. Given that, is it so unreasonable to expect a performance review every couple a weeks? Some hands-on mentoring? A strongly-worded memo about how they feel you're not a good fit for this role?I imagine the Twelve Gods (and deities in many D&D-esque settings) favor a laissez-faire management style when it comes to their followers.


I believe he said that children can't be Evil, rather than slaughtering it is automatically Evil, but I don't think we need word of author to conclude that slaughtering children is Evil or indeed evil.Close!:


And it's ridiculous to think that any given six-year-old may have committed a horrible act worthy of being executed unless the text says otherwise, just because that six-year-old has green skin and her parents bring her to their church services. That right there is enough reason for the story to be the way it is. No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

[Kish]

I'm not saying Xykon would run out of patience before the strategy succeeded. I'm saying that in this comic, whatever someone can do with numbers in an "of course the DM approves everything I want to do" D&D simulation, it would not have succeeded, the hobgoblin horde mattered, the Azure City army mattered.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm not saying Xykon would run out of patience before the strategy succeeded. I'm saying that in this comic, whatever someone can do with numbers in an "of course the DM approves everything I want to do" D&D simulation, it would not have succeeded, the hobgoblin horde mattered, the Azure City army mattered.
Yes, but in that case you can argue that no amount of additional nobles' support or tactical expertise would have mattered, because firepower don't matter, and probability doesn't matter. All that matters is a preconceived interpretation of what would be most dramatically satisfying, whatever that might be. If you throw reasonable expectations out the window, it's impossible to argue for or against anything.

[goodpeople25]

Yes, but in that case you can argue that no amount of additional nobles' support or tactical expertise would have mattered, because firepower don't matter, and probability doesn't matter. All that matters is a preconceived interpretation of what would be most dramatically satisfying, whatever that might be. If you throw reasonable expectations out the window, it's impossible to argue for or against anything.
I think that word is the sticking point. Given D&D someone could find it breaks their expectations that a PC in OotS world hasn't done whatever thing that lets them be some combination of an immortal god with infinite levels and stats, (add whatever else people come up with) But I think what is being said is that isn't really a reasonable expectation here, and that this follows similar principles.

I could be completely off base on that though, and it isn't really in my wheelhouse. I will say with more confidence that there are/were more factors than just Redcloak, Xykon and the Martyrs. For example, having to cast the ritual eventually, the gate being breakable, Redcloak getting to Xykon fighting the ghost martyrs by just entering the castle, Ect. (I seem to remember a fallen paladin being pretty involved too)

[Kish]

Yes, thank you, goodpeople25.

If one actually wants to argue for a dichotomy between "Xykon could have slaughtered the army alone" and "no logic matters," it would behoove one to come up with a better strategy than "spam a ninth-level spell that kills maybe a dozen soldiers each time"; Xykon isn't level 200, you know. As it stands, I find the suggestion that he could just as ludicrous as you apparently find the suggestion that he couldn't.

[Lacuna Caster]

I don't know if I'm relying on any particularly obscure information here. Xykon's damage reduction alone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) renders him essentially impervious to damage by anyone without advanced magical weapons, which means 99% of the army are worthless against him. We also know he casts Cloudkill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm), which will also eradicate 99% of living things in something like a 400 square-foot area per casting. A dozen of those and the main battle is over. Two dozen and Azure City isn't inhabited any more. And he hasn't bust out any spells above level 5 or burnt half his spell slots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm).

"Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain", remember? Xykon lost, sure, but he lost this engagement for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the number of regular troops on the ground or how well they might have been led. He was an opponent against which no strategy could prevail... unless you happened to be another epic caster. Troops on the ground might very well be relevant to what happens after the battle, but Shojo being present or not wasn't going to save the city.

EDIT: Also, meteor swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is perfectly capable of dealing AoE damage over about 150 feet square, if you aim with a nice wide spread. But you're better off saving those high-level slots for high-level opponents.

[Random Poster]

Huh? The paladins were the people guarding the Gates, and perfectly aware of the gates and rifts. None of which is relevant to Shojo's antics.

After what happened at the Godsmoot, I'm convinced that the gods always rules-lawyer everything the worst possible way. In this case, the worst possible way is that, precisely because these paladins are guarding a gate, the gods aren't allowed to give any information to them, even if that information has nothing to do with actually guarding the gate.

[factotum]

We also know he casts Cloudkill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm), which will also eradicate 99% of living things in something like a 400 square-foot area per casting. A dozen of those and the main battle is over. Two dozen and Azure City isn't inhabited any more.

Nope, not buying that. Two dozen Cloudkills, perfectly spaced, would wipe out most living things in an area of 9600 square feet. That sounds like a lot, but it's actually less than quarter of an acre. Before the battle Azure City's population was a little over half a million, AFAIK, and you're not cramming half a million people into a quarter of an acre! For comparison, the city of Newcastle here in the UK has a population of 293,000 in the main city, which covers an area of 44 square miles--to cover that with Cloudkill would require a little over three million castings, which would take approximately 213 days to cast even if Xykon had infinite spell slots.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, that's fair. But if you assume that the bulk of soldiers were concentrated along the walls- and they have to concentrate somewhere, or they'll be overrun- then I think the basic point stands- Xykon can pummel them into oblivion by just spamming AoE magic that regular troops have no effective defence against. Even if they don't always cluster perfectly, he can just launch fresh assaults the next day, use disintegrate to knock down walls, et cetera. And none of this will stop him flying straight to the throne room whenever he feels like it. The only reason he left it to the army was a lack of patience and getting a kick out of watching things fight to death.

EDIT: Plus, it only takes a few fireballs to ignite most buildings. You know when Smaug came to Laketown? It's like that, only much worse.

[Jasdoif]

I don't know if I'm relying on any particularly obscure information here. Xykon's damage reduction alone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) renders him essentially impervious to damage by anyone without advanced magical weapons, which means 99% of the army are worthless against him. We also know he casts Cloudkill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm), which will also eradicate 99% of living things in something like a 400 square-foot area per casting. A dozen of those and the main battle is over. Two dozen and Azure City isn't inhabited any more. And he hasn't bust out any spells above level 5 or burnt half his spell slots (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm).

"Energy Drain, Energy Drain, Energy Drain", remember? Xykon lost, sure, but he lost this engagement for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the number of regular troops on the ground or how well they might have been led. He was an opponent against which no strategy could prevail... unless you happened to be another epic caster. Troops on the ground might very well be relevant to what happens after the battle, but Shojo being present or not wasn't going to save the city.

EDIT: Also, meteor swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is perfectly capable of dealing AoE damage over about 150 feet square, if you aim with a nice wide spread. But you're better off saving those high-level slots for high-level opponents.First, for reference, cloudkill is a 20-foot-radius spread. That covers 44 squares, so unless the soldiers are packed too tightly to fight effectively that's 44 soldiers. True, the cloud moves forward...ten feet per round. Even a heavily armored beginner can walk twice that fast.


Even the low-level likes of magic missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) and searing light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/searingLight.htm) are perfectly capable of harming Xykon. Xykon can certainly kill clustered hundreds pretty easily, but on his own he's a single target for thousands who would be spread out; he'd find out the hard way how many of them were capable of hurting him. The massive, low-level hobgoblin army makes it exceedingly difficult for Xykon and the other mid-to-high level characters to be focus-fired on like that...and the not-quite-as-massive, low-level Azurite army makes it exceedingly difficult for the hobgoblin army to do the same thing to the Azurite's mid-to-high level characters.

With the end result that the armies are tying each other up a lot, making most of the pivotal moments combat between mid-to-high level characters on each side. Which is probably the only reason Shojo's involvement could be a factor: Convincing the nobles to do what he wants is kind of his whole shtick, and the nobles' personal forces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) would definitely include characters high-level enough to make some impact (there's at least one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html) among them). It might not have made a difference...but then again, it might have.

[Lacuna Caster]

Magic missile and searing light could theoretically damage him, sure... except that his spells get a +200 foot range bonus and low-level casters don't. Only composite longbows will have a reasonable chance to hit him at that point, and the most they'll do is tickle. Xykon is already immune to backstabs and I don't recall that Therkla can fly.

Xykon could always do something conspicuously dumb, sure- that's why he lost vs. Soon- but that's the only realistic way you're going to see a difference in outcomes. And the likelihood of this is in no way related to boots on the ground.

Sure, lesser beings could make a difference... if they coincidentally happen to enter the throne room at the precise moment when it appears that the Guard are losing the battle but are in fact about to win it while a paralysed soldier is poised to smash the gate, thus giving them a maximally misleading impression. I'm sure that's an entirely... reasonable expectation.

[Jasdoif]

Magic missile and searing light could theoretically damage him, sure... except that his spells get a +200 foot range bonus and low-level casters don't. Only composite longbows will have a reasonable chance to hit him at that point, and the most they'll do is tickle. Xykon is already immune to backstabs and I don't recall that Therkla can fly.

Xykon could always do something conspicuously dumb, sure- that's why he lost vs. Soon- but that's the only realistic way you're going to see a difference in outcomes. And the likelihood of this is in no way related to boots on the ground.There are spells for flying...heck, Xykon uses one of them himself. And for teleporting, and for invisibility, and for shapechanging, and so on....Xykon and Redcloak aren't the only ones capable of creatively using spells that were designed with an expectation of there only ever being twelve foes on one side in an encounter. There are a lot of things magic can do, and a lot of things magic can counter, and counter countering, and so on....Plus, Xykon is at a crippling disadvantage in terms of a highly valuable resource: actions. Can he really defend against everything all at once?

I suppose if the Azurite army just stands around and waits for to Xykon to come at them at a time of his choosing, the army doesn't mean much...but that is conspicuously dumb. The army facing Xykon by themselves is going to a costly victory at best, but fortunately they aren't entirely on their own. They've got the Order of the Stick that has a good chance of mediocre damage to add on top of their mass of trivial damage. (If nothing else, a bonus strip in War and XPs shows that dipping arrows in holy water beer is adequate to get damage past undead damage reduction; it'd take a lot of natural 20s to wear Xykon down that way, but they do have thousands of soldiers).


And of course, the hobgoblin army could do the exact same thing to the members of the Order of the Stick, and probably much more effectively against mid-level adventurers than against an epic-level lich, if the Azurite army wasn't there. To say that Team Evil needed the hobgoblins less than the Order of the Stick needed the Azurites would be true, but both armies had their part to play.

[Gray Mage]

There are spells for flying...heck, Xykon uses one of them himself. And for teleporting, and for invisibility, and for shapechanging, and so on....Xykon and Redcloak aren't the only ones capable of creatively using spells that were designed with an expectation of there only ever being twelve foes on one side in an encounter. There are a lot of things magic can do, and a lot of things magic can counter, and counter countering, and so on....Plus, Xykon is at a crippling disadvantage in terms of a highly valuable resource: actions. Can he really defend against everything all at once?

I suppose if the Azurite army just stands around and waits for to Xykon to come at them at a time of his choosing, the army doesn't mean much...but that is conspicuously dumb. The army facing Xykon by themselves is going to a costly victory at best, but fortunately they aren't entirely on their own. They've got the Order of the Stick that has a good chance of mediocre damage to add on top of their mass of trivial damage. (If nothing else, a bonus strip in War and XPs shows that dipping arrows in holy water beer is adequate to get damage past undead damage reduction; it'd take a lot of natural 20s to wear Xykon down that way, but they do have thousands of soldiers).


And of course, the hobgoblin army could do the exact same thing to the members of the Order of the Stick, and probably much more effectively against mid-level adventurers than against an epic-level lich, if the Azurite army wasn't there. To say that Team Evil needed the hobgoblins less than the Order of the Stick needed the Azurites would be true, but both armies had their part to play.

Liches have damage reduction 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, so magic infused arrows would still do no damage to him. On top of his natural immunities we also know that he has a lot of magic items. At the very least one that grants a deflection bonus to AC, immunity to fire and positive energy to name a few. Dude's hard to kill.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Liches have damage reduction 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, so magic infused arrows would still do no damage to him. On top of his natural immunities we also know that he has a lot of magic items. At the very least one that grants a deflection bonus to AC, immunity to fire and positive energy to name a few. Dude's hard to kill.

So you equip them with slings, and you get every available cleric to cast magic stones.

GW

[Gray Mage]

So you equip them with slings, and you get every available cleric to cast magic stones.

GW

Slings with Magic Stone have 50ft range increments while Xykon can use his medium and long range spells (which are the ones Lacuna Caster) at 300+ft, making him out of range.

[Jasdoif]

Liches have damage reduction 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, so magic infused arrows would still do no damage to him.Damage reduction only applies to physical damage...and apparently not to holy water beer even when delivered via arrow, since it worked against zombies (who have DR 5/slashing).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Slings with Magic Stone have 50ft range increments while Xykon can use his medium and long range spells (which are the ones Lacuna Caster) at 300+ft, making him out of range.

He has to come down if he wants to get to the throne room, and all those spells aren't terribly useful when all you can aim at is roofs - the soldiers may line up to defend the walls from an army, but they wouldn't do that agains Xykon. Also, max range of slings is 500 ft (10 range increments), and when you can only hit on a 20, it doesn't matter how far the target is, so he'd be well within range.

GW

[Gray Mage]

Damage reduction only applies to physical damage...and apparently not to holy water beer even when delivered via arrow, since it worked against zombies (who have DR 5/slashing).

Well, I don't have the book in question, so I'll take your word for it. That would be able to damage him, although he can be out of range if he sticks with meteor swarms. It'd still require a lot of natural 20s to deal significant damage. Also possible it wouldn't have any effect on him if he still has his ring that grants imunity/protection from positive energy.


He has to come down if he wants to get to the throne room, and all those spells aren't terribly useful when all you can aim at is roofs. Also, max range of slings is 500 ft (10 range increments), and when you can only hit on a 20, it doesn't matter how far the target is.

GW

That is fair on the max range of slings, I've forgotten they are projectile weapons and not count as thrown weapons. That was my bad, so if he sticks with medium range spells they can hit him. Still, indoors it's much harder for a significant number of soldiers to attack him and if the soldiers are outdoors aiming at him then he can hit them, no need to target roofs. Xykon alone is still massively in a more advantageous position and we're not even counting Redcloak or the MitD or the discipline the army would need to have.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Still, indoors it's much harder for a significant number of soldiers to attack him and if the soldiers are outdoors aiming at him then he can hit them, no need to target roofs. Xykon alone is still massively in a more advantageous position and we're not even counting Redcloak or the MitD or the discipline the army would need to have.

The thought exercise does not include MitD or Redcloak, just like it does not include a goblin army. Sincerely, I doubt Xykon would make it indoors. It would take him about 15 turns to go from beyond maximum range to the inside of the fortifications. 15 turns of 10000 soldiers rolling to hit is more than enough to finish him. Heck, they don't even need the whole army trying: Xykon has about 350 HP - 39 hits with magic stones is enough to kill him, on average, which means Azure city only needs to provide his soldiers with about 780 magic stones, or 260 castings. If the average first level cleric can cast two magic stones per day, that means 130 clerics in a city of half a million, which is not in any way surprising. Hand those stones to the best soldiers, and they can be the ones taking potshots at him until enough of them hit that he is toast.

GW

[Gray Mage]

The thought exercise does not include MitD or Redcloak, just like it does not include a goblin army. Sincerely, I doubt Xykon would make it indoors. It would take him about 15 turns to go from beyond maximum range to the inside of the fortifications. 15 turns of 10000 soldiers rolling to hit is more than enough to finish him. Heck, they don't even need the whole army trying: Xykon has about 350 HP - 39 hits with magic stones is enough to kill him, on average, which means Azure city only needs to provide his soldiers with about 780 magic stones, or 260 castings. If the average first level cleric can cast two magic stones per day, that means 130 clerics in a city of half a million, which is not in any way surprising. Hand those stones to the best soldiers, and they can be the ones taking potshots at him until enough of them hit that he is toast.

GW

If Xykon wants to go indoors he can just cast invisibility, like he did in the comic.
Still, Meteor Swarm is a MVP spell for this situation as it targets over 600 squares (4 40ft radius spread) if the meteors don't overlap and even on a save it's very likely that a first level Fighter will be in the negatives, not assuming that the soldiers won't be first level warriors. Xykon can pretty much wipe out close to half Azure city's army in 7 turns with that. And from outside sling range.

Edit: And now that I remember, Xykon has Greater Invisibility instead of the regular one, so he can cast offensive spells and remain invisible. While raining death from above.

[Jasdoif]

Well, I don't have the book in question, so I'll take your word for it. That would be able to damage him, although he can be out of range if he sticks with meteor swarms. It'd still require a lot of natural 20s to deal significant damage.I did say it'd take a lot of natural 20s :smalltongue: Let's see....The bonus comic (437a in War and XPs) isn't that precise on the effectiveness, so I'm going to guess half the usual damage....so 1d4, average 2.5 . Grey_Wolf_c's estimate of 350 seems plausible, so if the army were to try to take on Xykon alone (an act which voids life insurance policies), they'd need...140 hits. With the reasonable assumption they need a natural 20 to hit, it'd take twenty times that many attacks to get that many hits, so...2,800 attacks. Good thing they have 9,000 soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) and don't need to accomplish it all in one round...although nowhere near as good a thing as having the Order of the Stick and Sapphire Guard around, getting so many archers in range of Xykon without something else pulling his attention would be quite a trick.


Edit: And now that I remember, Xykon has Greater Invisibility instead of the regular one, so he can cast offensive spells and remain invisible. While raining death from above.I figure that if Xykon's zombie dragon biting Sangwaan narrowed his location enough for his invisibility to be dispelled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), a display of meteors originating from a point in midair would do the same job.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, but Xykon is a sorceror. There's no limit to how often he can cast Greater Invisibility, and you'll need to get close enough to cast a Dispel. (Meteor swarm in particular has very long range.) You now have to provide ~3000 magic stones to the army, and kill him in a couple rounds, or he's gonna wipe out the platoons that bothered him- assuming that he isn't buffed with Stoneskin, Iron Body, or other relevant defensive spells or items. He gave pre-fall Miko a timeout with a gesture- at best V or Durkon are gonna last a few rounds before he cracks their defences.

If Xykon takes any interest in the main battle at all, the main battle is over. The only one with a realistic chance of beating him was Soon and the martyrs, and if he'd coordinated properly with Redcloak for buffs, tactics and healing even that hope would likely evaporate.

[Gray Mage]

I figure that if Xykon's zombie dragon biting Sangwaan narrowed his location enough for his invisibility to be dispelled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), a display of meteors originating from a point in midair would do the same job.

That is assuming he doesn't move after casting and that he'd be close enough to be dispelled. And even if that did happen once, he can just cast it again on his next turn and there is no way the army can kill him in one turn.

[Goblin_Priest]

That is assuming he doesn't move after casting and that he'd be close enough to be dispelled. And even if that did happen once, he can just cast it again on his next turn and there is no way the army can kill him in one turn.

How many hit points does he have...?

10 000 archers hitting 5% of the time for 1 dmg is 500 damage per turn. And this doesn't consider archers that have feats to increase the number of attacks or damage, not to mention those that have enough levels for iterative attacks. Nor any shenanigans to increase damage (such as putting holy water on it, apparently). Add in the damage from any actual high-level character present... Plus any buffs to damage.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit: And now that I remember, Xykon has Greater Invisibility instead of the regular one, so he can cast offensive spells and remain invisible. While raining death from above.

All invisibility does for Xykon is negate half of the 20s rolled to hit. So double my estimates of the previous post: 300-odd clerics needed in a population of 500000. He's still re-dead.


You now have to provide ~3000 magic stones to the army,

No, just 1600. Each stone does 2d6 + 2 damage (average 9). Each casting produces 3 stones: 540 castings.


there is no way the army can kill him in one turn.
As I have shown, an army of 9000 soldiers can trivially kill even an invisible Xykon in a single turn. The law of large numbers easily overcomes the problem because no matter how much you stack defences, there is always a chance to hit in D&D, and when you use discrete dice, there is a limit to how small percentages can get.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

You have to pinpoint his location (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Invisibility) before you can aim. Good luck with that at 1200 feet away (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm), and then all he has to do is move next turn.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You have to pinpoint his location (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Invisibility) before you can aim. Good luck with that at 1200 feet away (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm), and then all he has to do is move next turn.

If he is 1200 feet away, you get yourself under a roof and wait for him not to be. He can't kill anyone from that range, because they aren't stupid enough to stand out in the open waiting for him to cast. Also, as already pointed out, he doesn't have an infinite number of level 9 slots. "Meteor swarm" is not going to win him the battle.

Edit: and to forestall predictable answers:

casting, then move: saturate the air with shots (which they have to do anyway) to pinpoint his new position. Use regular bullets, then switch to magical once someone hits.
double move: this effectively admits that he can't solo the army, and he is running away. The gate is stationary, and he needs to hold it for weeks. He can't double move forever.

GW

[Gray Mage]

How many hit points does he have...?

10 000 archers hitting 5% of the time for 1 dmg is 500 damage per turn. And this doesn't consider archers that have feats to increase the number of attacks or damage, not to mention those that have enough levels for iterative attacks. Nor any shenanigans to increase damage (such as putting holy water on it, apparently). Add in the damage from any actual high-level character present... Plus any buffs to damage.

They do not deal 1 damage, DR does reduce it to zero. And meteor swarm range (minimum 1200ft) is outside bow range (1000ft). And if he's invisible they need to pinpoint his location first, as Lacuna said.

[Lacuna Caster]

If he is 1200 feet away, you get yourself under a roof and wait for him not to be.
Then he casts meteor swarm, and the roof collapses, and/or the building catches fire. You also can't attack him when you're under a roof. Then you have a city burning down, and good luck rebuilding before he comes back with fresh spells the next day.

Even if he's closer in, so what? He just has to move every turn, disintegrate anyone capable of dispelling his buffs, and re-cast as necessary. Spread around some cloudkill in a pincer dispersal and fumigate the area. If we're giving both sides the benefit of perfect tactics, Xykon's perfect tactics are still orders of magnitude more powerful.

[littlebum2002]

I'm not sure if you guys have seen movies with an army raining down arrows (fighting in the shade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvNKXfCkFew)), but firing 10,000 arrows into the sky at an enemy isn't precise science. You can't have everyone aim for one 5' square; those arrows are going to rain down and hit anything within hundreds of feet (meters). And, when that happens, whether your enemy is invisible or not doesn't matter.

(How can invisibility possibly affect what happens when a hail of arrows rains down upon you? That's like saying invisible people have a 50% chance of getting wet when it rains. A hail of arrows would be treated similar to a Burst spell, which work regardless of concealment)

All the army needs to know is Xykon's approximate location and he's a pincushion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then he casts meteor swarm, and the roof collapses, and/or the building catches fire. You also can't attack him when you're under a roof. Then you have a city burning down, and good luck rebuilding before he comes back with fresh spells the next day.
You are still assuming infinite meteor swarms. They also can't set fire to objects. They might be similar to fireball, but they do not have the "set things on fire" rule like fireballs do.


Even if he's closer in, so what? He just has to move every turn, disintegrate anyone capable of dispelling his buffs, and re-cast as necessary. Spread around some cloudkill in a pincer dispersal and fumigate the area. If we're giving both sides the benefit of perfect tactics, Xykon's perfect tactics are still orders of magnitude more powerful.

Xykon has one turn within 500 feet of the city to act. After that, he is destroyed. Tactics don't even come into this (given that my charitable "perfect tactics" involve "everyone shoot at the lich", hardly genius-level military thinking). Since he does not have a spell that will stop 9000 people from attacking him, he can't solo the army.

Specifically, Cloudkills don't "fumigate" the area. IIRC what someone said a page or two ago, it might kill about 40 soldiers , then are easily avoided. And he can only cast one before he is destroyed.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Ah, but are we talking about what would realistically transpire here (in which case even natural 20s at 500 feet are questionable), or are we talking about what the rules of D&D technically describe? If you spread your ammunition over a 60x60 foot area (in which he could move each round) then you'll be spreading your ammo over around 100 squares, so you have a 1% hit chance.

Also, he can cast Ghostform (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/ghostform--3901/) and Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), which halves damage again and lets him relocate at-will. He's playing in a different league, folks.

[Lacuna Caster]

You are still assuming infinite meteor swarms. They also can't set fire to objects. They might be similar to fireball, but they do not have the "set things on fire" rule like fireballs do.
No. I'm assuming he can cast enough meteor swarms to set things on fire, because the spell description explicitly says it's fire damage and similar to fireball, and can then come back the next day.

Why does Xykon only have one turn to act? You have no reliable method of dispelling his invisibility, no reliable way to pinpoint his location, and no way to stop him moving. You can't stop him getting buffed and healed either.

One Cloudkill you might avoid. Three Cloudkills coming from different directions with panicky soldiers running into eachother are a different story. A dozen Cloudkills and it's good night folks.

[Gray Mage]

He has enough meteor swarms to kill half the army if each soldier obeys the rules of D&D and each are in a 5ft square. If the soldiers are more densily packed, then he can kill even more of them.
If the soldiers are indoors, he can also aim his spells through any window, but the soldiers can't "blacken the sky" from indoors. Them being indoors also mean that cloud kill can be cast at choke points such as doors.

Also, Xykon moves at 40ft, so after casting he can be anywhere in a 40ft radius sphere, so that is a lot of squares to target to try and find him.

Also, why are we imagining that Azure City even knows he's coming? Without the army he could've just teleported in invisible. :smallconfused:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah, but are we talking about what would realistically transpire here (in which case even natural 20s at 500 feet are questionable), or are we talking about what the rules of D&D technically describe? If you spread your ammunition over a 60x60 foot area (in which he could move each round) then you'll be spreading your ammo over around 100 squares, so you have a 1% hit chance.
And I have 9000 soldiers, so someone will. Then everyone else loads up the magic bullets and kills him.


Also, he can cast Ghostform (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/ghostform--3901/) and Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), which halves damage again and lets him relocate at-will. He's playing in a different league, folks.

Teleport, like double moving, is irrelevant. To solo the army he needs to confront the army. Ghostform, like invisibility, doesn't change the fundamental "9000 rolls of dice will kill him".


He has enough meteor swarms to kill half the army if each soldier obeys the rules of D&D and each are in a 5ft square. If the soldiers are more densily packed, then he can kill even more of them.
If the soldiers are indoors, he can also aim his spells through any window, but the soldiers can't "blacken the sky" from indoors. Them being indoors also mean that cloud kill can be cast at choke points such as doors.

If Xykon is beyond 500 feet, they stay indoors, and he can't "kill them all" - he might get the swarm into one house, killing a handful of soldiers, and that's it. 10 houses later, he is out of swarms to cast. The soldiers aren't going to pack themselves so he can hit many of them at once - they'll distribute across the city.

If Xykon is within 500 feet so he can cast cloudkill, they come out, and blacken the sky. At which point, he gets 1 spell, and then dies. No spell he has wins the battle for him at that point.


Also, Xykon moves at 40ft, so after casting he can be anywhere in a 40ft radius sphere, so that is a lot of squares to target to try and find him.
And 9000 soldiers can shoot a lot of squares.


Also, why are we imagining that Azure City even knows he's coming? Without the army he could've just teleported in invisible. :smallconfused:
Because the claim was that he could trivially kill the entire army without needing the goblin army. Can he teleport into the throne room directly? Sure. And then an entire order of much-more-than-level-1 paladins destroy him with smite evil.

GW

[Gray Mage]

And I have 9000 soldiers, so someone will. Then everyone else loads up the magic bullets and kills him.



Teleport, like double moving, is irrelevant. To solo the army he needs to confront the army. Ghostform, like invisibility, doesn't change the fundamental "9000 rolls of dice will kill him".

GW

To be fair, ghostform would mean that they'd need to use the magical ammo to even be able to find him. Also, how many soldiers would waste their actions to find him before the rest could act? Would they even have line of sight to target him from indoors?

[Lacuna Caster]

And I have 9000 soldiers, so someone will.
You think you're going to notice which of 9000 arrows in the air coincidentally bounced off something invisible from hundreds of feet away?

Teleport, or double moving, isn't irrelevant. It allows him to continue engaging the army from different locations which they cannot guess. It's not enough to get those 9000 rolls of the dice- you have to roll them all, essentially, in one or two turns, and there is no plausible method of doing that, assuming Xykon has access to the same perfect information about his enemy's weaknesses and disposition.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You think you're going to notice which of 9000 arrows in the air coincidentally bounced off something invisible from hundreds of feet away?
Yes, I do, because when you hit something, you can tell in D&D that you did. Also, they all can roll to listen for him - yes even in battle. And a number of other pin-point methods.


Teleport, or double moving, isn't irrelevant. It allows him to continue engaging the army from different locations which they cannot guess. It's not enough to get those 9000 rolls of the dice- you have to roll them all, essentially, in one or two turns, and there is no plausible method of doing that, assuming Xykon has access to the same perfect information about his enemy's weaknesses and disposition.

You have yet to show how Xykon could even kill 9000 people other than by assuming they line themselves up neatly so that each meteor swarm or cloukill kills the maximum number of soldiers they possibly could, if they were standing in a featureless plain with no cover and they arranged themselves in 40-foot spheres. Since the soldiers won't do that, he can't kill them all - I can't even see him managing to kill 1000 of them.

So you are now suggesting he'd have to teleport in, kill a few hundred, then run to wait for the next day. But that's just giving the city to prepare better for the next day - bring in allies, higher level casters of their own, etc. It is no longer "Xykon vs 9000 level-1 soldiers and clerics". And he'd still lose.

But I grow bored of this. I believe it is quite well demonstrated that your claim that it would be trivially easy for Xykon to win the battle on its own is patently false: he would have a hard time. Sure, if he used tactics the real Xykon would never use, he might be able to eventually kill the entire city. But it is neither trivial nor obvious.

Grey Wolf

[Gray Mage]

If Xykon is beyond 500 feet, they stay indoors, and he can't "kill them all" - he might get the swarm into one house, killing a handful of soldiers, and that's it. 10 houses later, he is out of swarms to cast. The soldiers aren't going to pack themselves so he can hit many of them at once - they'll distribute across the city.

If they are in small houses then he can just use cloud kill, no need to waste meteor swarms. Also, if they are distributed across the city won't that be an issue with the blacken the sky plan?


If Xykon is within 500 feet so he can cast cloudkill, they come out, and blacken the sky. At which point, he gets 1 spell, and then dies. No spell he has wins the battle for him at that point.

They all come from across the city then?



And 9000 soldiers can shoot a lot of squares.

Question is, are the remaining soldiers enough to one turn kill him?


Because the claim was that he could trivially kill the entire army without needing the goblin army. Can he teleport into the throne room directly? Sure. And then an entire order of much-more-than-level-1 paladins destroy him with smite evil.

GW
You do remember what happened with that room full of paladins that were waiting for him when he did get to the throne room, right?

Edit: Flying and being invisible were tactics that Xykon actually used. He didn't bother trying to blast the soldiers which was probably Redcloak's suggestion (and that is kind of OOC of him). Mass magic stones was not something the army did.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yes, I do, because when you hit something, you can tell in D&D that you did. Also, they all can roll to listen for him - yes even in battle. And a number of other pin-point methods.
You're going to listen for a weightless, incorporeal, non-breathing target hundreds of yards away over the sound of shouting corporals and heavy armour?

Well done, sir. I have nothing to add.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You're going to listen for a weightless, incorporeal, non-breathing target hundreds of yards away over the sound of shouting corporals and heavy armour?

Well done, sir. I have nothing to add.

You were the one rules-lawyering this from the start (including giving meteor swarm abilities is does not have). All I'm doing is reading the "pinpoint" link you provided, which did not include any such considerations. Your sarcasm/condescension is quite unnecessary, except it does mean I can now add you to my ignore list in the full knowledge I will not be missing anything.


You do remember what happened with that room full of paladins that were waiting for him when he did get to the throne room, right?

I do remember: they called for reinforcements who then would have destroyed Xykon, if not for RC.

GW

[Gray Mage]

Listen rules say that battles impose a big penalty (-10 IIRC) to listen checks and unlike attack rolls, a natural 20 is not an automatic success.



I do remember: they called for reinforcements who then would have destroyed Xykon, if not for RC.

GW
And Soon is not the army either. I thought the though experiment was Xykon vs the army, not Xykon vs Soon (just like you correctly pointed out to me that Redcloak and MitD should not be considered).

[Kish]

The army didn't do mass magic stones because the army was fighting the other army (which outnumbered them three-to-one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)) while Xykon went straight for the Order (which seems to be doing nothing at all in all these Xykon-didn't-need-the-army assertions) and then for the throne room. To an argument that the hobgoblin horde was irrelevant, what the Azure City army did in the actual big battle is truly irrelevant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Listen rules say that battles impose a big penalty (-10 IIRC) to listen checks and unlike attack rolls, a natural 20 is not an automatic success.

[citation needed]. All I can find is that listening for a battle has a DC of -10.

And Soon is not the army either. I thought the though experiment was Xykon vs the army, not Xykon vs Soon (just like you correctly pointed out to me that Redcloak and MitD should not be considered).

Indeed, so the answer to "can Xykon beat the army?" cannot be "he teleports beyond the army"

GW

[Lacuna Caster]

It's a completely ludicrous idea.

The point here is that the actual determining factors in this battle had very little do with the quantity of troops available. Azure City already had enough that they could plausibly hurt Xykon... if Xykon did absolutely everything wrong and they did absolutely everything right. But that's not a reasonable expectation, and adding more troops was not going to substantially affect the equation. Failing that, lining up more soldiers to throw things at him just means you've given him more targets.

[Gray Mage]

[citation needed]. All I can find is that listening for a battle has a DC of -10.

GW

Indeed, that was what I was remembering. However, it's +1 per 10ft distance and Xykon is a lot of 10ft distances away.

[Keltest]

The army didn't do mass magic stones because the army was fighting the other army (which outnumbered them three-to-one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)) while Xykon went straight for the Order (which seems to be doing nothing at all in all these Xykon-didn't-need-the-army assertions) and then for the throne room. To an argument that the hobgoblin horde was irrelevant, what the Azure City army did in the actual big battle is truly irrelevant.

I assume they aren't being taken into account because the original question was "could any number of reinforcements have actually made a difference in whether or not the Azurites held onto their city?", to which somebody responded "no, because Xykon can just wreak royal havoc on the army no matter how large it gets" and then whoever responded promptly forgot the hobgoblins were even there.

[Lacuna Caster]

Indeed, so the answer to "can Xykon beat the army?" cannot be "he teleports beyond the army"
For the third time, he doesn't have to. He just has to teleport somewhere the army does not expect him to be, but still in range of his spells. (Also, ghostform confers (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell-compendium--86/ghostform--3901/) complete immunity to listen checks.)

[Kish]

I thought the though experiment was Xykon vs the army, not Xykon vs Soon (just like you correctly pointed out to me that Redcloak and MitD should not be considered).



The original claim Lacuna made was that the hobgoblin horde didn't matter because Xykon could have destroyed the army without effort by himself just by spamming Meteor Swarm, and to say otherwise means throwing out all reason. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me to accept anything as supporting that*, it would need to take into account all the defenders Azure City had: the Order, the army, Hinjo, the Order, Sangwaan, a couple treacherous prisoners, etc. It could also take into account Redcloak (if it claimed the creature in the darkness would do anything significant to help Xykon that would push it firmly into the realm of the same kind of theoretical optimization as "my paladin says Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu, and the DM looks up from the cup that catches his drool long enough to affirm that this means I can do whatever I want," from where I'm sitting), but no hobgoblins or other minions. And it would need to be an airtight case that he would have unambiguously won, not a case that he would have had a chance, in light of the part about throwing out all reason.

*Or rather, supporting the modified version where Xykon uses multiple spells, since Lacuna et al have been at least mentioning other spells, though Lacuna still seems to be arguing that Meteor Swarm is actually Apocalypse from the Sky whenever they mention Meteor Swarm. The actual original version was dead on arrival.

[Lacuna Caster]

*Or rather, supporting the modified version where Xykon uses multiple spells, since Lacuna et al have been at least mentioning other spells, though Lacuna still seems to be arguing that Meteor Swarm is actually Apocalypse from the Sky whenever they mention Meteor Swarm. The actual original version was dead on arrival.
The meteor-swarm-only version isn't original to me, but it has some merit, since it's nearly as efficient as Cloudkill and he can stay much further away while doing it. What I find stupifying is this idea of lobbing mass-produced magic projectiles with perfect logistic coordination at an invisible dot in the sky while it rains various flavours of death on you.

My original contention was that Shojo's involvement wasn't going to budge the scales enough to matter. You could halve or double the numbers on either side and the armies would still be about as useful to their respective top players... if the top players cared to get involved.

[Jasdoif]

My original contention was that Shojo's involvement wasn't going to budge the scales enough to matter. You could halve or double the numbers on either side and the armies would still be about as useful to their respective top players... if the top players cared to get involved.If Shojo's involvement influenced the outcome of the battle, it'd almost certainly be in the form of getting more top players involved on the Azurites involved.

And as for top players caring to get involved, that's the key to the whole thing: Xykon can certainly toss a meteor swarm at a bunch of soldiers who could possibly do small damage to him, instead of using the same action and 9th-level slot against someone who could reasonably do noticeable damage (let's say Vaarsuvius, disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) has a lot of potential against undead). And at the same time, the hobgoblin army can certainly harm the Order (as seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)), and that doesn't take any of Xykon's resources.

The high-levelers duking it out can use every advantage they can get, and armies can provide little ones. But at the same time, the armies are going to be a lot more effective against each other. So it's a lot of army against army, and powerful individuals against powerful individuals. Completely different layers, to be sure, but it's the same game. (I feel like there's some sort of Quidditch reference to be made...?) And in the army-vs-army level of the conflict, doubling or halving one side is going to make a lot of difference.

[littlebum2002]

What I find stupifying is this idea of lobbing mass-produced magic projectiles with perfect logistic coordination at an invisible dot in the sky while it rains various flavours of death on you.


What I find stupefying is the idea that it's possible for 9000 arrows all flying at an object to miss it. You could blindfold the archers and some of them would still hit Xykon just out of pure luck.

I think you're laboring under the assumption that all 9000 archers will hit the exact 5' area, and therefore they need to know exactly what square Xkyon is in order to hit him. Whereas, in reality, if you had 9000 archers all firing at a target, even if they can't see the target and only have a vague idea of where it is, it would be a MIRACLE if none of them hit it.

[Keltest]

What I find stupefying is the idea that it's possible for 9000 arrows all flying at an object to miss it. You could blindfold the archers and some of them would still hit Xykon just out of pure luck.

I think you're laboring under the assumption that all 9000 archers will hit the exact 5' area, and therefore they need to know exactly what square Xkyon is in order to hit him. Whereas, in reality, if you had 9000 archers all firing at a target, even if they can't see the target and only have a vague idea of where it is, it would be a MIRACLE if none of them hit it.

heres the thing. If youre going by D&D rules, they ARE all firing at the exact 5' area that he is in. And in that case, Xykon is hosed unless he takes precautions to make it so they cant target him, in which case none of them hit him. If youre going by the rules of reality, it doesn't even matter to Xykon if he gets hit at that point, because he can just eat the regeneration and laugh as the 8900 arrows that didn't hit him rain havoc down on the city and the soldiers that were shooting him.

[Jasdoif]

If youre going by D&D rules, they ARE all firing at the exact 5' area that he is in.Not necessarily; different archers could fire at different 5-foot-cubes, if they don't know precisely which 5-foot-cube Xykon is in.

[Goblin_Priest]

How many casters do they have? Enlarge Person, and its mass equivalent, will increase the damage die, increase the range, and make the troops less tightly packed (and thus less susceptible to AoE spells). Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are also rather low level spells. There's also no rule that states that an army must (or should) fill every single square of the field, a formation could easily leave 10%, 33%, 50% and such of its squares empty. Meteor Swarm will only do so much.

[LuisDantas]

I find it unlikely that that decades-long history was intended to not include Shojo's reign. And I'm not saying that just because I'm the president and possibly sole member of the "Shojo's demonstrated actions mark him as Neutral at best, not Good" club.

I want to join that club. Heck, I am probably already an off-the-record member.

[Gray Mage]

What I find stupefying is the idea that it's possible for 9000 arrows all flying at an object to miss it. You could blindfold the archers and some of them would still hit Xykon just out of pure luck.

I think you're laboring under the assumption that all 9000 archers will hit the exact 5' area, and therefore they need to know exactly what square Xkyon is in order to hit him. Whereas, in reality, if you had 9000 archers all firing at a target, even if they can't see the target and only have a vague idea of where it is, it would be a MIRACLE if none of them hit it.

Simply hitting Xykon is not the only issue. The part that actually hits him needs to hit AC (he has natural armor after all), it needs to actually deal damage (normal arrows won't), if Xykon is right above them it also means that the missing arrows will rain back at the soldiers (since we're bringing RL rules) and they need to be grouped up outdoors, so they are target to AoE.

How many casters do they have? Enlarge Person, and its mass equivalent, will increase the damage die, increase the range, and make the troops less tightly packed (and thus less susceptible to AoE spells). Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are also rather low level spells. There's also no rule that states that an army must (or should) fill every single square of the field, a formation could easily leave 10%, 33%, 50% and such of its squares empty. Meteor Swarm will only do so much.

They are low level and single target. Not much usefull in an army. If you aren't being tightly packed it starts to get unviable to use the rain of arrows tactic.

[Lacuna Caster]

If Shojo's involvement influenced the outcome of the battle, it'd almost certainly be in the form of getting more top players involved on the Azurites involved.

And as for top players caring to get involved, that's the key to the whole thing: Xykon can certainly toss a meteor swarm at a bunch of soldiers who could possibly do small damage to him, instead of using the same action and 9th-level slot against someone who could reasonably do noticeable damage (let's say Vaarsuvius, disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) has a lot of potential against undead). And at the same time, the hobgoblin army can certainly harm the Order (as seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)), and that doesn't take any of Xykon's resources.

The high-levelers duking it out can use every advantage they can get, and armies can provide little ones. But at the same time, the armies are going to be a lot more effective against each other. So it's a lot of army against army, and powerful individuals against powerful individuals. Completely different layers, to be sure, but it's the same game. (I feel like there's some sort of Quidditch reference to be made...?) And in the army-vs-army level of the conflict, doubling or halving one side is going to make a lot of difference.
I suspect this depends on whether Xykon and RC make the same mistake twice. I can kinda imagine a scenario where a better-led, numerically-boosted regular army (with maybe a few extra mid-level bruisers), could push back the main hobgoblin force and conceivably even kill Redcloak... as long as Xykon splits off to solo the throne room like he did in the main plot.

Epic Sorcerer vs. Epic Paladin is usually no contest, but... assuming that Team Evil do everything wrong and Team AC do everything right, then... yes, having Shojo aboard could help. If Redcloak is dead, Xykon can't regenerate, and if the army is even just repelled, Team AC might have a chance at using divination or tracking to find and smash the phylactery. So... maybe?

I get very cynical doing this kind of analysis in OOTS, though, because extrapolation from expectable outcomes with the occasional left-field result is patently not how the author's mind works. I feel like Shojo could've been returned to earth by a choir of angels who kindly escorted Miko to a padded cell on the astral plane, and the universe would still have somehow conspired to make everything her fault.


I want to join that club. Heck, I am probably already an off-the-record member.

Just as a follow-up to the earlier post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519696-When-did-the-Saphire-Guard-learn-about-the-Crimson-Mantle&p=21976419&viewfull=1#post21976419), part 2 of that linkedin article (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/your-company-culture-who-you-hire-fire-promote-part-2-sepah) is also quite interesting.

[Lacuna Caster]

Also, it just occurred to me: If Hel is direct communication with Durkula, why isn't The Dark One holding bi-weekly strategy meetings with Redcloak? He, like Hel, is involved in an elaborate Xanatos Gambit for world domination, and he, like Hel, is relying heavily on the involvement of a singularly powerful terrestrial follower to execute that plan. The most we've seen is the initial info-dump from donning the mantle itself, and second-hand info from Jirix.

Deities be crazy, yo.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think that RC and Xykon learned from that encounter, Xykon in particular (since he was the one being the dumbest). Though we don't see much direct evidence of that ourselves, I suspect that the Tomb could have more disastrous results for them if they hadn't.

[Jasdoif]

Also, it just occurred to me: If Hel is direct communication with Durkula, why isn't The Dark One holding bi-weekly strategy meetings with Redcloak? He, like Hel, is involved in an elaborate Xanatos Gambit for world domination, and he, like Hel, is relying heavily on the involvement of a singularly powerful terrestrial follower to execute that plan. The most we've seen is the initial info-dump from donning the mantle itself, and second-hand info from Jirix.At the same time, though, if the Dark One was communicating with Redcloak regularly (let's say, fifteen minutes of nonverbal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) exchanges during Redcloak's daily spell preparation), would we necessarily know? Possibly the catapulting titanium elementals ploy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html), the one that conveniently displaced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) the Order's primary arcane caster, was directly inspired by the Dark One.

Heck, with the evidence of the Crimson Mantle knowledge infusion and how long Redcloak's been wearing the thing, he might not even know if he was being unconsciously influenced; that could even be the primary function of the Crimson Mantle....

[Lacuna Caster]

Mmm. The impression I got from his exchange from Jirix was that direct communication with the Dark One was a surprise to RC, even as his current high priest.

[B. Dandelion]

All those crimes can be applied to Robin Hood, the proto-stereotypical Chaotic Good character, so again: lying & cheating does not make Shojo Evil, just Chaotic*. At its broadest sense, Good and Evil deal with intentions; Legal and Chaotic with methods. As long as Shojo did intend to do Good for his people, what methods he used will not change that. Even allowing the Paladin's attacks on goblin villages could be done by a Good character, if their intention really was to protect the Azurites from raids/ensure free access to commerce/sustain the integrity of the universe. And no, just because "the universe includes him" that doesn't make it neutral, because what matters is his intentions, and if he was not thinking of himself, that is still Good.

Indeed, two Good rulers could go to war over a piece of land both need to feed their respective populations, cause the death of thousands and still be Good, if they never intended the war for anything other than improving their populations' lots in life. Yes, we can discuss of "a higher Good" that would attempt to figure out a resolution that was best for both countries at once, but that is a never-ending escalation of increasing the breadth of Good required. Take Elan: he is Good, but incapable of thinking more globally than his immediate companions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html). Did it make him Evil that in touching the rune, he endangered the whole universe? Obviously not - his intentions where Good.

Yes, none of this has anything to do with whether someone is a good person in the real world, where intentions cannot be ascertained. But mixing in RL morality into D&D morality never works anyway.

Grey Wolf

*The Chaotic Good motto could easily be "Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right." (Salvor Hardin, Foundation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(Isaac_Asimov_novel)), Isaac Asimov)

I know that the thread got derailed into the "could Xykon have single-handedly taken out the Azurite army" topic, but still, I'm a little surprised this got apparently zero pushback.

Robin Hood, in the popular mythos, is mostly known just for theft. You could expand the list depending on interpretation to, say, resisting arrest, undermining local authority, jailbreak, even treason -- but nowhere in any popular telling are you going to hear about him being complicit in the murder of children or of ethnic cleansing. It is safe to say that if those aspects were an enduring part of his legend, he would never have become an archetype for "Chaotic Good" in the first place.

The interpretation of "intent" as the dividing line between Good and Evil doesn't seem to come out of standard D&D. There it is said that::


Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

"Protecting innocent life" is the hallmark of Good, not "Good intentions". Miko had "good intentions" when she killed Shojo, but they were realized by chopping an elderly unarmed man in half without trial. If "good versus evil" equals intent and "law versus chaos" equals method, arguably she committed a Chaotic Good act there. Likewise, Redcloak's intent to bring about a fairer world for his people is also arguably Good, it just has that pesky mass loss of life and potential obliteration of the entire world method-thing going on for him. Is Redcloak secretly Chaotic Good?

I think the only way to argue Shojo is really Chaotic Good is to believe he was just completely unaware of the excesses his paladins were going to. This is kind of hard to believe given his characterization as a manipulating mastermind, but I suppose it's just barely possible if the crusades had started long before his reign and he didn't take steps to change what had been longstanding policy before his ascent to the throne.

[Jasdoif]

I think the only way to argue Shojo is really Chaotic Good is to believe he was just completely unaware of the excesses his paladins were going to.And/Or that Shojo's morally-significant actions were Good appreciably more often than they were Evil or Neutral. I mean, it's not like we have an extensive view of Shojo's life or rule....

[B. Dandelion]

And/Or that Shojo's morally-significant actions were Good appreciably more often than they were Evil or Neutral. I mean, it's not like we have an extensive view of Shojo's life or rule....

Ah, right, sorry. To rephrase, you couldn't really argue the ordering of the crusades itself was Chaotic Good, regardless of intent -- ignorance would really be the only mitigating factor there.

[Lacuna Caster]

I didn't really touch on the Robin Hood comparison, because it strikes me as ludicrous. Haven't there been enough real-world examples of leaders at the top being shocked, shocked at what their underlings were doing, protesting that these were just a handful of bad apples, etc., that we should have a degree of healthy cynicism on this point? Shojo had been in office for over ten years at this point, and Azure City has basically no separation of powers- Of course he knew.

Sure, one can imagine hypothetical actions that make up for this ethical deficit- maybe he's giving blood with one hand and resuscitating drowned puppies with the other, five days a week- but at this point you might as well argue that Tarquin was the Garibaldi of the western continent. There's only slightly worse evidence for it.

I think Miko's actions were wrong for independent logical reasons, but given how wonky the Gods' definition of 'good' appears to be, I'm not sure her Fall can be taken as evidence of anything beside pissing them off.

[hamishspence]

Soon never ruled Azure City. He created and headed the Sapphire Guard, which was not the same office as the ruler of Azure City until he turned it over to Shojo's father when he was near death. (I forget where I read this, but I think Rich wrote it somewhere, and also it's really the only way to make the timelines make sense.)
Yup:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=207299&postcount=37


Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.
This was before War & XPs came out, which gave "Shojo I"'s name as Ronjo and Shojo II's death age as 72, not 68.

Upgrade Shojo II's age at the "handover of control of Sapphire Guard" to 16 and age of ascension to throne as 25.



I'm pretty sure we have Word of Giant on this as well.

This is the quote you're thinking of - emphasising the Chaos and the Good in Shojo's government:


This idea that all governmental Chaos leads directly to warfare, and all warfare is evil, so therefore Chaotic rulership is evil is ridiculous.

If you take away the external threat of Xykon, the most likely outcome of Shojo's rule is that he dies (whether from Miko or old age), and the more Lawful Hinjo takes over. He reforms the system and the nobles either fall in line or get crushed by his much larger army. The only reason Kubota takes the risky actions he takes is because Hinjo has virtually no army anymore, and Kubota has no ancestral holdings to lose. It is a highly unusual vulnerability on Hinjo's part that certainly could not have been predicted by Shojo.

Further, this idea that Shojo "should have known" that his actions would lead to open rebellion is silly. They didn't. They led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take. This is the whole point behind his final lines: He has no regrets over his actions, because he did it all for his people at the possible expense of his own safety or liberty should his transgressions be discovered.

I can't really wrap my head against this idea that his reign wasn't Good because the things he did could have lead to other people performing Evil acts at some vague future point, even though it didn't. The only way his rule would be non-Good is if there was no other outcome except for there to be an increase in Evil, AND he knew it. And we know that isn't the case because that's not what happened.

[Lacuna Caster]

(Interestingly, the same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS&p=15384521&viewfull=1#post15384521) mentions that the nobles of Azure City have maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms apiece.)

I'm afraid that real-world examples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_of_the_British_Isles_by_cause_of_ death#Murdered.2C_assassinated.2C_executed_or_euth anised) of assassination attempts on medieval monarchs correlate quite strongly with either civil war or being replaced by the assassin, so if Hinjo was going to suddenly reform that nest of vipers, he'd either need a lot of luck or more political cunning than he's shown. Frankly, if that's the point the Giant was trying to make, he should have written a different story.

[Keltest]

(Interestingly, the same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS&p=15384521&viewfull=1#post15384521) mentions that the nobles of Azure City have maybe 20 samurai and 100 men-at-arms apiece.)

I'm afraid that real-world examples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monarchs_of_the_British_Isles_by_cause_of_ death#Murdered.2C_assassinated.2C_executed_or_euth anised) of assassination attempts on medieval monarchs correlate quite strongly with either civil war or being replaced by the assassin, so if Hinjo was going to suddenly reform that nest of vipers, he'd either need a lot of luck or more political cunning than he's shown. Frankly, if that's the point the Giant was trying to make, he should have written a different story.

Given the sufficiently overwhelming amount of force Hinjo would have commanded without the invasion, "the assassination attempts need to stop or I'm replacing all of you simultaneously" is a legitimate and potent threat. Or if the outright demotion of nobility isn't in his power, then "because of the danger of assassination, I'm placing 300 soldiers in each of your estates for your own protection until I have reason to believe the attempted usurper is dealt with."

[Kish]

Dream-Shojo described himself as "a scheming benevolent dictator." "Dictator" is pretty completely incompatible with Chaotic Good in my view. 'Course, that doesn't necessarily say anything about anything but what Belkar thought about him.


"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
I note that Rich describes his actions as "led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take." That seems directly contrary to what the comic shows and what Rich says elsewhere, though. Shojo started faking senility because someone tried to assassinate him, not because it would somehow enable him to do more for his people, and if Lord Hinjo could have ended the nobles' schemes then playing too ineffective to remove was not the only or best way of dealing with the nobles' schemes. He did, as this thread is about, nothing to stop Azure City's genocidal crusades. Shojo's schemes seem to have been directed solely at avoiding violence against him, not somehow arranging to take it on the chin for his people. He certainly didn't show concern for the dignity of sentient beings when he sent Miko to bring back the Order in chains (and not, say, to deliver a letter to Roy telling him about the Gates and/or explaining why they needed to meet immediately).


A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
...Shojo really, really doesn't mind when person named Shojo intimidates others and tells them what to do. Other than that, this all seems to rely on giving Shojo credit for things that he didn't do--i.e., the country stayed together as long as he was on the throne--and not giving him responsibility for, well:


Instead of thinking about the end state and whether it was a stable government, think about the delta-v: Did the rule of law have more of a hold in Azure City at the end of Shojo's rule—compared to when he took office—or less? Clearly, less. Before Shojo ascended the throne, it is highly unlikely that his father ignored the rules that he found inconvenient, encouraged the nobles to blame each other for his unpopular edicts via an elaborate ruse, seized citizens of other countries on charges he knew to be false, and snuck around making secret policy behind the backs of even his own most trusted advisors. You can't separate the fact that his government fell apart when Shojo died, because that was a direct result of him kneecapping that government over the years so that it depended on him, personally. Shojo was handed a Lawful system and made it more Chaotic than it was before, so that only his own personal scheming was holding it together.

Shojo is more plot device than character. (It's really tempting to finish that sentence with "twisted and evil," but I fear it would be taken as more serious than reference, which could be bad here.) To be clear, I'm well aware that Shojo is officially Chaotic Good. (Ironically, if Carry2 had pushed "Shojo and Tarquin are disturbingly similar in some ways which suggest Shojo isn't Good," instead of pushing "Shojo and Tarquin are disturbingly similar in some ways which suggest Tarquin isn't Lawful" in that thread, I would have agreed with them.)

[hamishspence]

I note that Rich describes his actions as "led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take." That seems directly contrary to what the comic shows and what Rich says elsewhere, though. Shojo started faking senility because someone tried to assassinate him, not because it would somehow enable him to do more for his people.

He can't "do more for his people" if he's constantly fending off assassination attempts though.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html

"I can make the decisions I feel are necessary without worrying about being killed over them"

If "necessary" in this case, tends to be about "the good of the Azurite people" as well as "the good of the world" - and not just his own safety - then his feigning of insanity could qualify as a sacrifice - a sacrifice of his own dignity, for the good of others.

[Keltest]

I note that Rich describes his actions as "led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take." That seems directly contrary to what the comic shows and what Rich says elsewhere, though. Shojo started faking senility because someone tried to assassinate him, not because it would somehow enable him to do more for his people, and if Lord Hinjo could have ended the nobles' schemes then playing too ineffective to remove was not the only or best way of dealing with the nobles' schemes. He did, as this thread is about, nothing to stop Azure City's genocidal crusades. Shojo's schemes seem to have been directed solely at avoiding violence against him, not somehow arranging to take it on the chin for his people. He certainly didn't show concern for the dignity of sentient beings when he sent Miko to bring back the Order in chains (and not, say, to deliver a letter to Roy telling him about the Gates and/or explaining why they needed to meet immediately).

By my recollection, the senility was a response to a completely overblown reaction to one of his decrees, which clued him into the fact that hey, the nobles clearly don't actually care about the system all that much either. Youre right, it is specifically designed to protect himself, and he flat out says as much. He also says its a lot easier to do his job if he doesn't have to worry about being assassinated over every law he makes or every decision he comes to, which I also find it hard to argue with. And unlike Hinjo, he's only an aristocrat, so his options for surviving assassins are somewhat more limited than a paladin's.



...Shojo really, really doesn't mind when person named Shojo intimidates others and tells them what to do. Other than that, this all seems to rely on giving Shojo credit for things that he didn't do--i.e., the country stayed together as long as he was on the throne--and not giving him responsibility for, well:

Frankly, I think youre reading more into that quote than is there (or perhaps more accurately, the Giant is overstating his point). The government didn't fall apart because Shojo died, it fell apart because there was an army of hobogoblins and a supremely powerful spellcaster that attacked the city and disrupted all of it. Hinjo probably would have had some initial difficulty asserting his authority in the beginning had the invasion not happened, but as long as an assassin didn't get lucky, nothing Shojo did would have seriously impeded Hinjo's attempts to rule (though I suspect his Paladin-ness might have). As for the intimidation, the slogan for chaotic good could very well be "never let your morals get in the way of doing whats right." Strongarming people into doing things for their own good (legitimate good, not "good as filtered through the lens of what keeps me in power) is perfectly within character for a chaotic.

[hamishspence]

Given how old Shojo looks at the time of the Meatloaf Day Attempted Assassination - it's possible that he's been inputting Chaotic policies much earlier than that - hence the "50 years of prosperity + a few assassination attempts on him" idea - with Meatloaf Day just being a recent example.

[B. Dandelion]

Frankly, I think youre reading more into that quote than is there

Hey, not to be an jerk, but how does that stack up next to fabricating a quote that was never there?

I mean, again, no offense, but you kind of kicked off this entire thread with a misquote and never exactly owned up to your mistake. Would a "whoops" kill you?

[Ruck]

I note that Rich describes his actions as "led to 50+ years of prosperity, peppered with a few instances of violence against him. Which I'm sure he would argue was his risk to take." That seems directly contrary to what the comic shows and what Rich says elsewhere, though. Shojo started faking senility because someone tried to assassinate him, not because it would somehow enable him to do more for his people
I'd argue the two are directly correlated: A dead leader can't do much for his people, after all. And if his goal is to avoid future assassination attempts for his decisions, then playing up the idea that he's not in a capacity to really make decisions seems sound enough.


and if Lord Hinjo could have ended the nobles' schemes then playing too ineffective to remove was not the only or best way of dealing with the nobles' schemes.
But when we're talking about the difference between Shojo and Hinjo's methods, we're talking about the difference between Lawful and Chaotic, not Good and Neutral/Evil.


He did, as this thread is about, nothing to stop Azure City's genocidal crusades. Shojo's schemes seem to have been directed solely at avoiding violence against him, not somehow arranging to take it on the chin for his people. He certainly didn't show concern for the dignity of sentient beings when he sent Miko to bring back the Order in chains (and not, say, to deliver a letter to Roy telling him about the Gates and/or explaining why they needed to meet immediately).
I do think that sending Miko in this manner, and in particular sending someone who might as soon kill the Order as bring them back in one piece, is not exactly good; the act itself is probably Neutral (to say nothing about how ineffective it might have been), but since he is doing it with a cause of the greater Good in mind, I don't think it's enough to move him to Neutral.


...Shojo really, really doesn't mind when person named Shojo intimidates others and tells them what to do. Other than that, this all seems to rely on giving Shojo credit for things that he didn't do--i.e., the country stayed together as long as he was on the throne--and not giving him responsibility for, well:
What you're quoting is largely Chaotic though, as opposed to Evil.


Shojo is more plot device than character.
That I can't argue with. I just think most of the shortcomings you point out point to him being not-Lawful rather than not-Good. (And we've seen Roy manipulate others to achieve his objectives, and he still qualified as Lawful Good on the whole-- so even if you're right, they may not be enough to move the needle on him from where he was conceived as a character.)

I think you have a point, but I don't think it's necessarily enough to conclude Shojo isn't Good. (Compare the debates about Eugene's alignment: We also see his personal interests align with the greater good, although Eugene makes it much more explicit that his concern is his own personal well-being, time and again. It's hard to say Shojo's concern is his own personal well-being first, except insofar as he prefers Chaotic methods to Lawful ones.)

[Kish]

I don't think the Eugene comparison is nearly as beneficial to Shojo as you seem to think it is.

(i.e.: I recognize that Shojo is simply a character Rich puts down north of where I put him alignmentwise, but I will be very surprised if Eugene's goodness is not actively and deliberately being called into question by his author, at this point.)

Beyond that, if you think "manipulate others to achieve his objectives" is Chaotic, you may well be closer to Rich's understanding of the alignment system than I am but you're quite thoroughly at odds with mine (and indeed the only definition of Chaotic I see that supports that, is the Chaotic=Evil one, the one under which a pure good character is also a Lawful Good character and Chaotic Good means "dirty good"). Shojo treated people as chess pieces. That's not Chaotic.

[Ruck]

I don't think the Eugene comparison is nearly as beneficial to Shojo as you seem to think it is.

(i.e.: I recognize that Shojo is simply a character Rich puts down north of where I put him alignmentwise, but I will be very surprised if Eugene's goodness is not actively and deliberately being called into question by his author, at this point.)

Beyond that, if you think "manipulate others to achieve his objectives" is Chaotic, you may well be closer to Rich's understanding of the alignment system than I am but you're quite thoroughly at odds with mine (and indeed the only definition of Chaotic I see that supports that, is the Chaotic=Evil one, the one under which a pure good character is also a Lawful Good character and Chaotic Good means "dirty good"). Shojo treated people as chess pieces. That's not Chaotic.

Oh, no, I'm fully on the "Eugene isn't actually Good and probably not Lawful either" train. I think comparing their two primary concerns-- Eugene's for his own well-being; Shojo's for the realm and the world at large-- contrasts why Shojo is Good and Eugene may not be.

I personally align more with you re: manipulating other people than my argument indicates, but apparently in OOTS-world motives for manipulation matter for where such an action belongs on the Good-Evil axis. (I think there might even be a quote from Rich to that effect.) Hence why I cited the Deva's review of Roy-- reviewing his manipulations, she says "[These] are not acts that scream 'Lawful,'" not "[These] are not acts that scream 'Good.'"

[Jasdoif]

I personally align more with you re: manipulating other people than my argument indicates, but apparently in OOTS-world motives for manipulation matter for where such an action belongs on the Good-Evil axis. (I think there might even be a quote from Rich to that effect.)There is.


On the Chaotic subject....To my recollection, Shojo faked senility to continue ruling like he always had but with fewer risks, and rigged the Order's trial to get them where he could talk to them personally. He's certainly facing in the face of the "tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties" definition of Lawful there. And I don't see evidence of an elaborate system of deceptions that'd make me think there was a extensive structured (Lawful) conspiracy going on.

[factotum]

Frankly, I think youre reading more into that quote than is there (or perhaps more accurately, the Giant is overstating his point). The government didn't fall apart because Shojo died, it fell apart because there was an army of hobogoblins and a supremely powerful spellcaster that attacked the city and disrupted all of it.

That hobgoblin army had a huge numerical advantage over the defenders because the nobles walked out and took all their troops with them. Would they have done that if Shojo had played them straight all those years rather than faking senility? Obviously, we don't know if the nobles adding their forces to the ones already there would have made a difference to the outcome of the battle, but it certainly wouldn't have made things any worse. There's also the crucial point that the final death blow to the defence of the city came at Miko's hands, when she destroyed the Sapphire. She would not have been in prison and desperately looking for a way to get the Twelve Gods to like her again if not for Shojo's machinations, so would not have been in a position (or even have an inclination) to do that.

[Ruck]

There is.


On the Chaotic subject....To my recollection, Shojo faked senility to continue ruling like he always had but with fewer risks, and rigged the Order's trial to get them where he could talk to them personally. He's certainly facing in the face of the "tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties" definition of Lawful there. And I don't see evidence of an elaborate system of deceptions that'd make me think there was a extensive structured (Lawful) conspiracy going on.

Well, I don't think anyone's contending Shojo isn't chaotic.

This situation is interesting because I agree with the Giant's quote there, too. I think maybe I'm having trouble comparing what Shojo did to what Haley did because the former's plan is much more elaborate and much more likely to fail, specifically by either Miko killing the Order or vice versa. Given that possibility and that it's reasonably foreseeable when sending someone as trigger-happy as Miko, I can see moving that to the neutral category, although it's possible it just makes Shojo's plan Chaotic Stupid.

[factotum]

I think maybe I'm having trouble comparing what Shojo did to what Haley did because the former's plan is much more elaborate and much more likely to fail, specifically by either Miko killing the Order or vice versa.

Thing is, Shojo knows that Miko is all about doing her duty, and he would have expected Roy and the others to not read as Evil to her Detect Evil power. Had it not been for Xykon's crown giving a false reading she would never have attacked them the way she did. It's notable that once the fight ended the Order were happy to accompany her to Azure City without force being used, at least until after the disaster at the inn--presumably that would have been the same if the fight never happened in the first place.

[littlebum2002]

Yup:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=207299&postcount=37



Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.

Thanks for this, it clears a lot up. Except, however, why a 12 year old is only as tall as his father's knee.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Thanks for this, it clears a lot up. Except, however, why a 12 year old is only as tall as his father's knee.

Simplest explanation: it's a figure of speech.

Somewhat more complex explanation: some people are pretty short when they're twelve, and maybe his father was particularly tall. Also, if memory serves, the throne is elevated somewhat.

[hamishspence]

Thanks for this, it clears a lot up. Except, however, why a 12 year old is only as tall as his father's knee.

That was the original timeline - now that Shojo's 4 years older than that timeline would suggest (72 instead of 68), a few of the dates (such as the date of Soon's handover and death) might need to be pushed back for Shojo's "age at handover" to still work.

[martianmister]

Thanks for this, it clears a lot up. Except, however, why a 12 year old is only as tall as his father's knee.

Not a happy and nutritious childhood, I presume. :smallbiggrin:

[Lacuna Caster]

Thing is, Shojo knows that Miko is all about doing her duty, and he would have expected Roy and the others to not read as Evil to her Detect Evil power. Had it not been for Xykon's crown giving a false reading she would never have attacked them the way she did. It's notable that once the fight ended the Order were happy to accompany her to Azure City without force being used, at least until after the disaster at the inn--presumably that would have been the same if the fight never happened in the first place.
Even if Shojo could rely on Miko showing due diligence and restraint- which I'd like to believe, but can't really prove- there is also the possibility of the Order killing her. Miko is smart and badass, and the Order were a few levels lower at the time, but 6 to 1 odds vs. primary casters are not good news.

No, if Shojo and the Guard were actually thinking rationally, Miko would've been accompanied by 3-5 other paladins or hired auxiliaries to provide numerical backup, plus tracking, forensics and interview/diplomacy skills, because Miko clearly isn't skilled in all these areas, and it's a sufficiently important mission that they can suck up interpersonal frictions. They would also have teleported directly to Dorukan's Keep to pick up the trail faster, or just used divination spells to pinpoint the Order directly. (This assumes that Shojo doesn't just use a Sending spell to recruit Roy, which is substantially less likely to piss off the people he's trying to recruit, and perfectly possible given a detailed description from Eugene.)


On the Chaotic subject....To my recollection, Shojo faked senility to continue ruling like he always had but with fewer risks, and rigged the Order's trial to get them where he could talk to them personally. He's certainly facing in the face of the "tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties" definition of Lawful there. And I don't see evidence of an elaborate system of deceptions that'd make me think there was a extensive structured (Lawful) conspiracy going on.
The 'faking senility' bit is something I try to ignore, because it makes very little sense and it's not really all that crucial to the plot. In the unlikely event that you successfully convinced everyone you were senile, they'd appoint a viceroy and/or start quietly ignoring what you say. Failing that, you'd get a "Mad King Aerys" scenario where all your unpopular decisions and perception as mentally unsound would actually make assassination attempts more frequent.

[Jasdoif]

This assumes that Shojo doesn't just use a Sending spell to recruit Roy, which is substantially less likely to piss off the people he's trying to recruit, and perfectly possible given a detailed description from Eugene.It just occurred to me that if Shojo intended to do anything about the Order if they refused his offer, having them right in the middle of his city when he made the offer...gives him a lot more options than just sending a message would.

[Lacuna Caster]

It just occurred to me that if Shojo intended to do anything about the Order if they refused his offer, having them right in the middle of his city when he made the offer...gives him a lot more options than just sending a message would.
I wonder if the Order aren't a fantasy equivalent to the Dirty Dozen/Suicide Squad... Being able to use a commuted sentence as leverage might help, and I guess the advantage of Roy over, say, Tsukiko or other local convicts is that he had a pre-existing internal motive for hunting down Xykon. (Plus a somewhat better reputation?)

In fairness, it would also be difficult to avoid issuing an arrest warrant after the dungeon was destroyed- it's unlikely that only Shojo had access to the magical indicator for the other gates, and Sangwaan or other diviners would've been obliged to investigate sooner or later. Shojo could probably massage the intel a little, and pick his personnel, but letting the Order run free would have been difficult.

[littlebum2002]

Simplest explanation: it's a figure of speech.

Somewhat more complex explanation: some people are pretty short when they're twelve, and maybe his father was particularly tall. Also, if memory serves, the throne is elevated somewhat.

No, I meant in the picture, he's literally as tall as his father's knee. Maybe 3' tall, at most.

I mean, the most obvious explanation is "Rich changed the timeline after that comic was drawn". I was just being sarcastic.

[SaintRidley]

No, I meant in the picture, he's literally as tall as his father's knee. Maybe 3' tall, at most.

I mean, the most obvious explanation is "Rich changed the timeline after that comic was drawn". I was just being sarcastic.

Or that Shojo, narrating in unreliable crayon, is exaggerating his size in comparison to his father, perhaps because he holds his father in high regard.

[Zyzzyva]

At the risk of dragging the thread off-topic by returning to the subject of the thread...

The new kickstarter bonus indicates that it happened sometime between 34 years before the present (date of the massacre in Start of Darkness) and 12 years before the present (date of How the Paladin got his Scar, when the Sapphire Guard is aware of it). It also doesn't seem to involve any main-strip characters (except mayyybe Shojo, and even that's iffy, he seems pretty hands-off).

[Aedilred]

To answer the OP, some clues are given in the bonus story How the Paladin Got His Scar, released recently.

The Sapphire Guard learned of the threat of the Crimson Mantle at some point before the attack on Redcloak's village, which was 34 years ago. At the time they did not know the Mantle was significant as an object, but they had learned of it by the time of the new story, which is set 12 years before the main strip. It doesn't give any details on how they learned that that I noticed, though, but there might be more clues which I missed.

[Kish]

I mean, the most obvious explanation is "Rich changed the timeline after that comic was drawn". I was just being sarcastic.
The most obvious explanation is that objections on the level of "he's too short for his age" are entirely inapplicable to stick figures.

How the Paladin Got His Scar does indeed explain a great deal about the questions raised in this thread--including having the actual answer to the thread-title question.

[Lacuna Caster]

How the Paladin Got His Scar does indeed explain a great deal about the questions raised in this thread--including having the actual answer to the thread-title question.
Good to know. The gloss I get from reading the kickstarter thread is that it's a solid piece, but I'm not sure it resolved the question of Shojo's involvement in the Guard's crusades.

[hamishspence]

Shojo says that he:
"didn't get involved in the day-to-day aspects" - having a commander to do that for him - and that it has blown up in his face.

[Lacuna Caster]

Shojo says that he:
"didn't get involved in the day-to-day aspects" - having a commander to do that for him - and that it has blown up in his face.
Quoting from the other thread...

[O-Chul] wins round the Sapphire Guard, causing them to mutiny against their commander - including Miko, the commander's protégé - in a matter of minutes.

I'd like to read that as suggesting that Miko was not picking her attitudes out of a hat, so to speak. So I guess I derive some sense of satisfaction from that. (Or at least a diminution in my burning itch to go write angry fanfic. *grumble*)

[Kish]

Absolutely. She actively questioned the commander on how she (as a single-classed monk at the time) could be sure a potential target was evil. Unfortunately, she swallowed "if their race is generally known to be evil, you can be sure they have done or will do something evil at some point" without chewing.

Possibly even more unfortunately, at the end, when she'd transferred her "you are my mentor, tell me how to make sound moral judgments" attitude to O-Chul, she understood O-Chul's account of his own recent actions to mean that she should not hesitate to remove a leader she considered dishonorable.

[Sylian]

Wrong thread, sorry.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

<snip>

I disagree with pretty much your entire analysis but, more importantly, this is major spoilers for a story not everyone has access to. Please either spoiler it, or move it to the dedicated thread.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Sylian]

I disagree with pretty much your entire analysis but, more importantly, this is major spoilers for a story not everyone has access to. Please either spoiler it, or move it to the dedicated thread.Oh, sorry, I had both tabs open and accidentally posted in the wrong thread. My bad.