Paladin Oaths: Creating a viable dextrous paladin?

[MissJynx]

Hi there. I just started a new 5e game with a few new players, which are mostly all paladins of the same order.

With the recent addition of the Oath of Redemption in Unearthed:Arcana and such, I've been motivated, and have been juggling with the idea of making a dex based paladin Oath. Something that would make the class viable, sneaky and powerful, without impeding on the rogue class.

My idea is that the paladin order of my game contains many different branches in which they can specialize, to fit the needs of the Order.

Here's what I'm looking for (but not limiting myself to):
-Doubling the proficiency of certain abilities (maybe dex, cha?)
-Sneak attack?
-limiting the Oath-takers to light armor and simple, finesse weapons? (not sure about ranged options)
-Proficiency in either Deception, Sneak or Sleight of hand?

Any ideas on how to make this work? (without having to multi-class)

And thanks in advance! :)

[DivisibleByZero]

Here's what I'm looking for (but not limiting myself to):
-Doubling the proficiency of certain abilities (maybe dex, cha?)
-Sneak attack?
-limiting the Oath-takers to light armor and simple, finesse weapons? (not sure about ranged options)
-Proficiency in either Deception, Sneak or Sleight of hand?

Any ideas on how to make this work? (without having to multi-class)

Trade Divine Smite and Extra Attack for Sneak Attack progression.
Trade other features for the ones that you want here, like Lay on Hands for Expertise, etc.
There's no need to limit weapons/armor, as building the class itself with SA and stealth/expertise/etc will lend itself to the character gravitating towards those options on their own.

[MissJynx]

Trade Divine Smite and Extra Attack for Sneak Attack progression.
Trade other features for the ones that you want here, like Lay on Hands for Expertise, etc.
There's no need to limit weapons/armor, as building the class itself with SA and stealth/expertise/etc will lend itself to the character gravitating towards those options on their own.


These sound good; the only thing is that i'm looking to make these features part of an Oath, such as "Oath of the Cloak", and Lay on Hands and such are paladin-based, not oath.
But it gave me good ideas on where to start, thanks!

[Cazero]

Trade Divine Smite and Extra Attack for Sneak Attack progression.
Trade other features for the ones that you want here, like Lay on Hands for Expertise, etc.
There's no need to limit weapons/armor, as building the class itself with SA and stealth/expertise/etc will lend itself to the character gravitating towards those options on their own.
You basicaly told her to roll a rogue :smalltongue:

[DivisibleByZero]

You basicaly told her to roll a rogue :smalltongue:

The problem is that he wants it without multiclassing. But tossing those things onto the Pally chassis as a subclass without losing anything but the subclass itself would be ridiculously OP.
Divine Smite + Extra Attack + Sneak Attack + potential Smite spell = why is anyone else siting at the table with me?
So the best way to do it is to alter the class itself, not the subclass.

I mean, I guess you can toss in a few Rogue items in for subclass abilities, like Expertise @ 3, Uncanny Dodge later on, etc, and only drop Smite and E-Attack. That would work well enough, and would also create the subclass feel that he wanted.

[MissJynx]

I get that adding too much to the class would make the rogue not worth it, or the paladin too strong, or both.

That's why i was trying to make viable via an Oath.

Add a couple of sneaky abilities instead of spells, maybe?

I know the paladin of Vengeance has a couple of interesting ones, but i was aiming more for something more stealthy, less batman.

[Cazero]

Or, you know, make a rogue, and hold an oath as fluff. You can do that too.

[Biggstick]

You don't actually need any of these other features to play a sneaky or Dex based Paladin. Here are the offensive capabilities within the PHB/SCAG book for Paladins that require melee.

-Divine Smite (Level 2)
-Improved Divine Smite (Level 11)
-Relentless Avenger (Vengeance Oath Level 7)
-Soul of Vengeance (Vengeance Oath Level 15)

And that's it. The only other argument I'd accept is that Paladin's don't have the Archery or Two Weapon fighting style. I think it' pretty easy to work with a DM to get that changed though if you're persuasive enough.

Everything else in the Paladin set-up works with a Dexterity based Paladin. If you decide to use a Rapier, you'll be just as effective as the Paladin who uses a Long sword. And if you decide to do most of your combat at range with a bow or crossbow? Well you now have a ton of spells that you can use to provide utility! Bless and Magic Weapon are potentially on all the Paladin's spell lists. Individual spell lists include spells like: Sanctuary, Ensnaring Strike, Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, Haste, Plant Growth, Dimension Door, etc.

As for the skills you're looking for, you can create a custom background to have just the skills you're looking for, or at least 2/3 of the ones you listed. If you're hurting for Expertise and feel that the additional 2-5 points (this represents PC levels 1-16, as you only see +6 at level 17) on your Stealth roll will make or break your character (which trust me, it won't), ask your DM for some of the homebrew feats that grant it. Otherwise, just relax with your 20 Dexterity and Proficiency in Stealth.

I'm really just saying all this to say, you don't have to do any sort of massive overhaul to the Paladin class to play a sneaky/Dex based Paladin. The class as it is readily supports the play style. You just have to change your views a bit on what a Paladin can do.

[Corran]

I recently read this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Hkbptrxz4x). It's a homebrew rogue archtype by Arkhios, but I cannot see why it wouldn't work as a religious order (or a paladin order, call it however you like) in your campaign. The specific individual would still be tied to the church/religious order, that you want your characters to be tied to, and the dynamic of this relationship (between the character and said religious structure) would be intriguing and interesting.

There was a homebrew paladin oath that revolved around being dex-based and using a bow, and had some very cool channel divinities that helped be very discrete in your social interactions (NPC's failing against the DC of your CD would forget things regarding the social interaction they had with you when you used this CD, or sth like that). The bad news is that I cannot find it, but it is somewhere in the homebrew ection of this forum. I'm mentioning this because someone might remember the name of that homebrew oath.

ps: Existing paladin oaths can sure work with a dex based build, and backgrounds allow for picking the right proficiencies. I dont think you really need an order for dexterous paladins in your campaign, it is too generic of an approach imo. Jut base the ''paladin'' (maybe knightly is a better word, as it is only natural to have individuals of many different classes belong in these orders) orders around what function they server in the kingdom where the campaign takes place (for example, do they keep the king's peace, do they act in the archbishop's orders, do they patrol the borders of the kingdom, etc etc), and dont associate them with the paladin oaths themselves. Imo this is a much more realistic approach.

[Biggstick]

I get that adding too much to the class would make the rogue not worth it, or the paladin too strong, or both.

That's why i was trying to make viable via an Oath.

Add a couple of sneaky abilities instead of spells, maybe?

I know the paladin of Vengeance has a couple of interesting ones, but i was aiming more for something more stealthy, less batman.

Have you considered Ranger? They're pretty decent skill monkeys in the number of skills they get, and they get access to Pass w/o Trace naturally on their spell list.

You can easily reflavor the Ranger to having an Oath similar to the Paladins if it is really necessary.

Both classes are divine magic. The big difference with Ranger being s/he doesn't prepare spells daily, but knows their spells instead.

[MissJynx]

Or, you know, make a rogue, and hold an oath as fluff. You can do that too.

Yes, thank you. I had already thought of that.
I guess I could also switch it around and add "holy" options to the specializations of the rogue.

I was simply looking to break the mold of the "full-plated, sword and shield holy avenger".

I think paladins should not be limited to that aspect of them. Shouldn't chosen heroes of Gods come in all shapes and sizes, after all? ;)

[Galadhrim]

I would leave the paladin class progression alone

Have channel divinity to give you expertise in stealth for 1 hour as an action.

Other one could be +3 to attack with finesse weapons for one minute as a bonus action.

Domain spells take your cue from trickery domain cleric, ie pass without a trace. You should probably have disguise self as well.

Level 7 oath feature could be similar to evasion.

Paladins are proficient in all armor and weapons so a Dex paladin is fine and can take light armor and a finesse weapon. This character should feel more dexterous and stealthy but doesn't just become the rogue.

[MissJynx]

[QUOTE=Corran;21858165]I recently read this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Hkbptrxz4x).

Pretty cool! Thanks.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yes, thank you. I had already thought of that.
I guess I could also switch it around and add "holy" options to the specializations of the rogue.

I was simply looking to break the mold of the "full-plated, sword and shield holy avenger".

Building a rogue subclass similar to the AT, with divine casting using Wis, and tossing an Oath onto it for the subclass features is really the best way to go about this, I think.

I say Wis instead of Cha because Cha is too multiclass heavy as it is, and you already have a bunch of Paladins.

[MissJynx]

I would leave the paladin class progression alone

Have channel divinity to give you expertise in stealth for 1 hour as an action.

Other one could be +3 to attack with finesse weapons for one minute as a bonus action.

Domain spells take your cue from trickery domain cleric, ie pass without a trace. You should probably have disguise self as well.

Level 7 oath feature could be similar to evasion.

Paladins are proficient in all armor and weapons so a Dex paladin is fine and can take light armor and a finesse weapon. This character should feel more dexterous and stealthy but doesn't just become the rogue.

Awesome ideas, thanks.

[Vorok]

You don't actually need any of these other features to play a sneaky or Dex based Paladin. Here are the offensive capabilities within the PHB/SCAG book for Paladins that require melee.

-Divine Smite (Level 2)
-Improved Divine Smite (Level 11)
-Relentless Avenger (Vengeance Oath Level 7)
-Soul of Vengeance (Vengeance Oath Level 15)

And that's it. The only other argument I'd accept is that Paladin's don't have the Archery or Two Weapon fighting style. I think it' pretty easy to work with a DM to get that changed though if you're persuasive enough.

Everything else in the Paladin set-up works with a Dexterity based Paladin. If you decide to use a Rapier, you'll be just as effective as the Paladin who uses a Long sword. And if you decide to do most of your combat at range with a bow or crossbow? Well you now have a ton of spells that you can use to provide utility! Bless and Magic Weapon are potentially on all the Paladin's spell lists. Individual spell lists include spells like: Sanctuary, Ensnaring Strike, Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, Haste, Plant Growth, Dimension Door, etc.

As for the skills you're looking for, you can create a custom background to have just the skills you're looking for, or at least 2/3 of the ones you listed. If you're hurting for Expertise and feel that the additional 2-5 points (this represents PC levels 1-16, as you only see +6 at level 17) on your Stealth roll will make or break your character (which trust me, it won't), ask your DM for some of the homebrew feats that grant it. Otherwise, just relax with your 20 Dexterity and Proficiency in Stealth.

I'm really just saying all this to say, you don't have to do any sort of massive overhaul to the Paladin class to play a sneaky/Dex based Paladin. The class as it is readily supports the play style. You just have to change your views a bit on what a Paladin can do.

I agree with this. I haven't tried it out in practice, but I do have a character concept of a Paladin who's going to be using a mixture of ranged and finesse melee (I originally wanted him to be almost exclusively an archer/xbowman, but since Smite doesn't work on ranged and the lack of archery fighting style without mc i've changed it) with Dex as the main attack stat. With the Urchin background for stealth and sleight of hand profs. And going for Oath of the Ancients for the spells of mobility and keeping things at distance.

[MissJynx]

Those are all viable options, thanks a lot!

[Sir cryosin]

Use the trickery cleric for inspiration. Make it Aura something akine to getting rid of disadvantage wife still thing and certain armors. For it channel Divinity give it the Assassin's auto crit ability for one and the other is cloak of Shadows if the Paladin remains in dark shadows and is standing still or moving at half speed he is invisible for 1 min. If he takes any action other than moving it breaks his invisibility.

For one of his abilities at a different level you could give him. shadowy defense: if you were hit with a attack you may use your reaction two Step to a shadow and remain invisible until your next turn. Sorry for the wording I'm just spitballing here. Use aspirations from other sneaky classes like I said before the trickery cleared the shadow Monk

[Sir cryosin]

Spells that I can see this Earth having is Darkness silent pass without Trace knock locate object mirror image. Disguise self. Invisibility and Greater invisibility

Not a bad idea for a fourth of the cloak and dagger. Maybe as a first ability or something like that you can give it the fighting style of two weapon fighting

[Sir cryosin]

Things to avoid pretty much anything that is stock rogue. Meaning no extra skills no expertise no efficiency and thieves tools but it's okay if they get that through their background no sneak attack dice no invasion uncanny Dodge no cutting action. But I would look at things from different Rogue archetypes. When doing Homebrew I don't like to take from the Baseline class abilities.

[MissJynx]

I'm sorry Tetrasodium, not sure I understand.

Plus, the Heavy armor worries me not for the speed, but for the disadvantage it gives on the Stealth.

The party is travelling with heavy armored dwarves, so speed isn't really a factor here hahaha

[Tetrasodium]

I'm sorry Tetrasodium, not sure I understand.

Plus, the Heavy armor worries me not for the speed, but for the disadvantage it gives on the Stealth.

The party is travelling with heavy armored dwarves, so speed isn't really a factor here hahaha



Oops. I misread the Op. I thought you were looking to make a dex based paladin character rather than a dex focused sacred oath.

[JellyPooga]

Hi there. I just started a new 5e game with a few new players, which are mostly all paladins of the same order.

With the recent addition of the Oath of Redemption in Unearthed:Arcana and such, I've been motivated, and have been juggling with the idea of making a dex based paladin Oath. Something that would make the class viable, sneaky and powerful, without impeding on the rogue class.

My idea is that the paladin order of my game contains many different branches in which they can specialize, to fit the needs of the Order.

Here's what I'm looking for (but not limiting myself to):
-Doubling the proficiency of certain abilities (maybe dex, cha?)
-Sneak attack?
-limiting the Oath-takers to light armor and simple, finesse weapons? (not sure about ranged options)
-Proficiency in either Deception, Sneak or Sleight of hand?

Any ideas on how to make this work? (without having to multi-class)

And thanks in advance! :)

What about the Paladin Class are you looking to retain? Is it the divine half-spellcasting? Divine Smite? Auras? Lay on Hands? If none of these are actually part of the image you have in mind then a Class other than Paladin with an appropriate Background might be more what you're looking for.

[Sception]

Paladin class works just fine for dexterity builds already? It comes with proficiency in martial weapons, including ranged and finesse weapons, and all armors, including light armor. Dex skills can be obtained from backgrounds and racial features. The spells and class features are tied to charisma, not strength. There really isn't anything tying a single classed paladin to strength rather than dexterity. I've played multiple dexadins of multiple oaths and they all worked just fine.

If you want to change anything, I would make it minor stuff. let them take the two weapon and ranged fighting combat styles. Add acrobatics to the class skill list. Make the multiclassing requirements "13 charisma, and either 13 strength or 13 dexterity", so that multiclassing becomes more viable for dexadins.

[Draco4472]

One option is to give them a scaled-back sneak attack, or something akin to it. Perhaps an additional 1d8 for divine smite per spell-slot level if the player is hidden from their target, or additional x damage when target is surprised, something to give additional benefits that makes paladins of this oath want to be stealthy. Implementing elements of rogue would be another, and from what I've heard Blackguard from older editions was basically an assassin/paladin multiclass.

[Vorok]

Something that may work, if you're gonna go the homebrew oath way:

Smite from the shadows
X times per Y rest you can now use Divine Smite when you hit a creature with a ranged weapon attack. If you use a 1st-level spell slot, you can choose to regain the spell slot at the end of your next turn.

It probably would take some tweaks (especially deciding how many times per what rest, and if it would upgrade later on), but that could be one way to get closer to a sneak attack before/in addition to the Improved Divine Smite.

[MissJynx]

I fleshed out the Oath of the Cloak last night, for my players. It's looking good so far, without impeding on the Rogue class too much. It'll definitely need some play testing to see how it goes before making it "official" to my groups, but it's looking promising.

I was now looking for some passive abilities to add to the Oath. Usually you gain one passive at level 7, and it increases at level 18.

Any ideas for that?

[Citan]

Hi!

If you want to make minor adjustements as an Oath, I'd suggest picking the Trickery Clerical Domain for choice of spells. Or a custom list among Jump, Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Blur, Spider Climb, Haste, Slow, Fly, Levitate, Lightning Bolt).

For skills, a custom background will do nice.
Beyond that, I don't see much change to do, you can pick up the features of Vengeance Oath.

Or, if you really want DEX-features on a custom Oath, for a Paladin (pardon me if I have a very archetypal view of how a dextrous Paladin would expand his capabilities).

First, add the TWF style in the choice of Fighting Style. Then...

3rd level: Swift Justice (CD): you ask your divinity to fill you with its divine force. An intense radiance starts pouring from your heart into your whole body and lasts for the next minute. During that time, when you take the Attack action and targets a single creature, you can make one additional attack against it.

7th level: Godly agility
OPTION 1 (Aura): you now extend an aura that soothes and relaxes muscles. All allies in a range of 10 feet can add your Charisma modifier to any Acrobatics or Athletics check, and they gain a speed bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. The range of the aura extends to 30 feet when you reach level 18.

OPTION 2 (self): When under the effect of Swift Justice, you gain advantage on all Athletics and Acrobatics checks, and your speed is increased by 10 feet. You are also able to Dash as a bonus action.

15th level: Instant Reaction: when a creature makes an attack within 10 feet of you, you can use your reaction to do one of the following, provided you are not wielding heavy armor nor two-handed weapons...
- If the creature targets another, you use your weapon to try and divert the attack: the creature must roll with disadvantage.
- If the creature targets you, you quickly put yourself in a defensive stance, adding your Dexterity modifier as an AC bonus against this attack.
- If the creature targets you, you forego any defense to instead pull a quick attack: the creature rolls with advantage, but then you make yourself an attack with advantage against it.

20th level: Angel of Swiftness (adaptation of Avenger): for one hour, you gain a flying speed of 60 feet, a bonus to Initiative equal to your Charisma modifier and the ability to Dash as a bonus action. Additionally, when you use Dash to move in a straight line towards a creature until it comes within your melee reach, all attacks you make against it during this turn are made with advantage.

Quick and dirty ideas, in case you like them. ;)

[Noodz]

Paladin class works just fine for dexterity builds already?

I have to agree with Malisteen on this one. It's fine to homebrew something different for flavor, but the paladin class is very compatible with a low-str high-dex build.

For reference, check this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21273131&postcount=3, especially the spoiler named "To DEX, or not to DEX"

The context with the post above is a sorc/pally build guide, which tends to be quite a bit MAD because you want high CHA, STR and CON. But the basic idea that can be generalized to paladins: by ditching STR for DEX you trade a large weapon for better initiative, stealth and a better saving throw. And honestly, with smites, Paladins can easily make up for the damage lost by not using a large weapon.

The only thing holding you to the "full-plated, sword and shield holy avenger" mold is player imagination :)

[Matrix_Walker]

I have to agree with Malisteen on this one. It's fine to homebrew something different for flavor, but the paladin class is very compatible with a low-str high-dex build.

For reference, check this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21273131&postcount=3, especially the spoiler named "To DEX, or not to DEX"


I have to say I disagree. I think the writer's personal preference for DEX leaves that analysis a little slanted.

Someone counted and

Results: I found 253 saving throws in the new MM. Of those, 86 are Con saves (34.0%), 57 are Dex saves (22.5%), 52 are Wis saves (20.6%), 52 are Str saves (20.6%), 4 are Cha saves (1.6%), and only 2 are Int saves (0.8%).
So Dex may come in more handy for saves against other PC's, but not a very big difference against Monsters. You may be able to use acrobatics to jump, but not for grapples and most escapes, and if you're carrying a shield, you just might want to shove with it... a little initiative bonus and potential stealth doesn't stand up to the loss of STR, AC, and weapon versatility IMO.

If the GM rolls up a holy sword or magic glaive or a sword of sharpness, a ST build can take it's pick, but the DX Pally is SOL if it's not the finesse weapon... and if it is, he might have to negotiate with the Rogue and Bard for it.

[Matrix_Walker]

Something that would make the class viable, sneaky and powerful, without impeding on the rogue class.

My idea is that the paladin order of my game contains many different branches in which they can specialize, to fit the needs of the Order.

Here's what I'm looking for (but not limiting myself to):
-Doubling the proficiency of certain abilities (maybe dex, cha?)
-Sneak attack?
-limiting the Oath-takers to light armor and simple, finesse weapons? (not sure about ranged options)
-Proficiency in either Deception, Sneak or Sleight of hand?

Any ideas on how to make this work? (without having to multi-class)

And thanks in advance! :)

You can't give a class Sneak Attack, Expertise, and Thiefy sneaky/pickpockets proficiencies and NOT impede on the rogue class. I'm sorry, you just can't.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

A dexterity based paladin is already fully workable. But if you want a particularly sneaky Oath, there's the Unearthed Arcana Oath of Treachery. (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf)

I think it will work better than simply copying rogue features on to the Paladin chassis.