TotYP - Tomb of Horrors - Starting level and gear

[toranbazdrum]

I purchased the roll20 version of TotYP and I'm planning on running 6 players through The Tomb of Horrors. The book suggests level 13 but doesn't give any other advice.

Should I use the DMG suggestions for starting at higher levels in terms of gold and magic items? Should they have access to everything to spend their money on before we start? Scrolls, potions?

It also has suggestions for number of magic items at level 13 (2 uncommon, I think). Is this too much? Too few?

The 6 of these players are not new to d&d and I want to challenge them with tomb of horrors. Appreciate any advice!

[Bahamut7]

Don't hold their hand at all. Let the Tomb live up to its namesake. Tell them to bring tissues. As for the gear they should have? You will need to decide what you feel is appropriate for them. I would say at the least a +1 weapon and maybe armor (compensate for any Monks with +1 Gauntlets or something), 10 ft poles, scrolls if the wizard can afford them, Goggles of Night for any race without Darkvision, Potions of Greater Healing (party may need more than a few), rope/knife, and a Cleric that they can cry to as the room collapses in on themselves.

[toranbazdrum]

I think at level 13, they'd all start with around 6000gp each. I'll have to double check, but that's a lot of potions and scrolls, isn't it?

[Gryndle]

I haven't received my copy of Yawning Portal yet, but if the Tomb of Horrors lives up to the original...then you are not going to "challenge your players". You are going to slaughter them and likely just tic them off for no good reason.

I know ToH is a legendary part of D&D's history, but its a part that should be used as a cautionary tale of how NOT to build an adventure at best, or at least simply forgotten.

[GPS]

I haven't received my copy of Yawning Portal yet, but if the Tomb of Horrors lives up to the original...then you are not going to "challenge your players". You are going to slaughter them and likely just tic them off for no good reason.

I know ToH is a legendary part of D&D's history, but its a part that should be used as a cautionary tale of how NOT to build an adventure at best, or at least simply forgotten.

Kinda missing the point of ToH. In any other context, it could be considered bad campaignwork, but this is ToH. If you run ToH, then anyone who signs on knows what they're up for. They're expecting ToH.

[Beelzebubba]

I haven't received my copy of Yawning Portal yet, but if the Tomb of Horrors lives up to the original...then you are not going to "challenge your players". You are going to slaughter them and likely just tic them off for no good reason.

I know ToH is a legendary part of D&D's history, but its a part that should be used as a cautionary tale of how NOT to build an adventure at best, or at least simply forgotten.

Just because you can't hack it doesn't mean others will have the same problem.

I've DM'd two groups through it. One survived. Both had lots of fun.

Maybe some gamers are made of sterner stuff? :smallwink:

[Gryndle]

sterner stuff? I laugh. We may have different opinions, and that is fine. but don't ever presume to know what I am made of.

I have played through ToH, and later DM'd it for a group that had heard about it after being pestered by them at length. ToH is what it always has been. A stfu to people that complained the early published modules were too easy.

[DanyBallon]

As far as I'm concerned I'm torn between playing in it or running my players in it as they are all products of the 3.0 era...

[KorvinStarmast]

As far as I'm concerned I'm torn between playing in it or running my players in it as they are all products of the 3.0 era...
Somewhere on the internet is a brief story told by Rob Kuntz about his expedition into the ToH, into which he brought a number of orc henchmen (His fighter Robilar had a few of those) who triggered a variety of traps. He made the decision, in a very old school way, to leave to fight another day as he didn't like where the adventure was going. Heard rumors of a party of some of the Lake Geneva group who used a herd of cows to trigger traps ...

Not sure what form ToH is in, but the original I have (in my files at home) is a beast. The one time we ran it with pregen characters, not our regular adventuring party, we got half way in and had lost half of the party by the time that evening's session ended. We chose not to continue the following day as one of the few surviving left town for a few weeks ...

I was one of the dead.

[joaber]

I didn't read all yet, but ToH for 5e doesn't look really deadly for players of lvl 13+.

[Bahamut7]

If these are new characters, definitely run it as hard as the original. If they are existing characters from your normal campaign, then you could run a dream sequence but no loot will come of it. You can still run it hard but they only get the experience (not XP mechanic) of it.

Personally, I would take on whatever my DM sent my way, sure I be cautious to no end. talk with your players and see what they are willing to risk. Don't forget 2 out of the 3 entry ways are actually death traps. You could lose everyone before even getting in.

You could also offer do overs at a price. If the party wipes, they can restart at a prior point (randomize stuff to keep it fresh to an extant). The price can be what you want but make it harsh. Maybe a Demon Lord keeps reviving them but each time a fragment of their souls are taken. They die too many times, they are lost and potentially a demonic enemy in the future. Next quest could be to reclaim the fragments they lost.

Also, the players need to ask themselves why they are doing this. From what I remember the Lich inside wasn't really doing anything, and the adventurers are trying to cash in on his loot and take him out for a king.

[toranbazdrum]

This is just a one shot so we can all try out the roll20 module and some unearthed arcana stuff. Told them to have a few characters in waiting in case of deaths. They're all aware they shouldn't be attached. Just wondering about starting gear and magical items is all...

[Strill]

Tell them to play a little bit of I Wanna Be The Guy to prepare for what they'll face.

[DanyBallon]

Somewhere on the internet is a brief story told by Rob Kuntz about his expedition into the ToH, into which he brought a number of orc henchmen (His fighter Robilar had a few of those) who triggered a variety of traps. He made the decision, in a very old school way, to leave to fight another day as he didn't like where the adventure was going. Heard rumors of a party of some of the Lake Geneva group who used a herd of cows to trigger traps ...

Not sure what form ToH is in, but the original I have (in my files at home) is a beast. The one time we ran it with pregen characters, not our regular adventuring party, we got half way in and had lost half of the party by the time that evening's session ended. We chose not to continue the following day as one of the few surviving left town for a few weeks ...

I was one of the dead.

Now I can't do otherwise than play it, then run it :smallbiggrin:

[War_lord]

Thing is, ToH was created as a "winning party is the one that makes it furthest before dying" Tournament module. It's a bad module if it's something you're trying to drop into the middle of a long running campaign with characters the players actually care about, but it was never designed for that. The OP is running it as a one shot, so there should be no problem.

[AttilatheYeon]

Personally, i'' excited to play Tomb of Horrors with my bard/cleric/sorc/pally. It'll be the first time i feel like i have to play well or die. Course in AL play, i just need enough downtime and gold and i can get my rez, but still. I've just been screwing around in adventures cuz i wasn't going to die. Now i'm gonna feel that excitement of maybe i'll die if i'm stupid. So looking forward to this.

[Beelzebubba]

Thing is, ToH was created as a "winning party is the one that makes it furthest before dying" Tournament module. It's a bad module if it's something you're trying to drop into the middle of a long running campaign with characters the players actually care about, but it was never designed for that. The OP is running it as a one shot, so there should be no problem.

This.

Some keep forgetting, or intentionally ignore - sometimes adventures are made with a specific goal or play style in mind, not everything has to be 'balanced for 6-8 encounters per day of appropriate level so the party can kill everything and build a wonderful continuing character narrative that goes on until 20th level without any risk'.

It's OK for a dungeon to be a meat grinder. Sometimes.

[Beelzebubba]

sterner stuff? I laugh. We may have different opinions, and that is fine. but don't ever presume to know what I am made of.

Don't presume to tell people what they should or shouldn't play, and I won't draw sensible conclusions. :)

[mgshamster]

I didn't read all yet, but ToH for 5e doesn't look really deadly for players of lvl 13+.

I kind of agree. Make them be level 8. :smallamused:

[toranbazdrum]

I appreciate all the responses, but I don't think anyone has actually answered my original question lol.

Do I let them buy whatever they want with their 5,000+ starting gold at level 13 (potions, scrolls, etc.). Do I give them two uncommon magic items each? More? Less?

Game details:
- One shot
- Advised players to have multiple characters ready and that they'll probably die
- 6 players, all D&D vets
- Thinking of starting them at Level 13
- Played over roll20

[joaber]

I appreciate all the responses, but I don't think anyone has actually answered my original question lol.

Do I let them buy whatever they want with their 5,000+ starting gold at level 13 (potions, scrolls, etc.). Do I give them two uncommon magic items each? More? Less?

Game details:
- One shot
- Advised players to have multiple characters ready and that they'll probably die
- 6 players, all D&D vets
- Thinking of starting them at Level 13
- Played over roll20

This doesn't matter much, just avoid they get things that do better perception or investigation checks, immunity to poison or slash, piercing and bluggeoing, any thing that make they easily see traps or secret doors, etc.

As ToH is written in the new book, will be a piece of cake for 6 lvl 13 characters, so doesn't matter how they get magic itens, if you want to that adventure really looks like ToH, you need to change a lot of things (in fact, most part is about damage from traps and some DC checks).

[Gryndle]

Don't presume to tell people what they should or shouldn't play, and I won't draw sensible conclusions. :)

I wasn't telling anyone what to play or not. I was simply cautioning the OP about using this particular deathtrap of an adventure. and I voiced an opinion on it. You are the one that responded with sideways insults.

so allow me to clear the air in case text clouds my intent in anyway. to the OP- obvious play what or how you want. and to you Beelsebubba-Go rot!

[Beelzebubba]

I appreciate all the responses, but I don't think anyone has actually answered my original question lol.

Do I let them buy whatever they want with their 5,000+ starting gold at level 13 (potions, scrolls, etc.). Do I give them two uncommon magic items each? More? Less?

Game details:
- One shot
- Advised players to have multiple characters ready and that they'll probably die
- 6 players, all D&D vets
- Thinking of starting them at Level 13
- Played over roll20

If you let them buy what they want, you risk having them walk all over it. I've heard of that happening, as in 'boots of spider climb for everyone'.

I'd either kit it all out, or give them the major things like armor/weapons/most powerful magic items and give them a bit of money for customization or just picking the mundane gear.

The risk is, of course, if they don't literally have what they need to combat Acereak (i.e. Shatter or Forget spells at the very least) and they are only used to modern adventures with 'level appropriate everything' then it could feel like a bit of a set-up.

When I ran it, we were pretty old-school (it was a long time ago), so the idea of encountering monsters that were way too powerful for you and needing to avoid or escape it was pretty common. So find a way to prepare them (edit: for that type of game play).

[toranbazdrum]

This doesn't matter much, just avoid they get things that do better perception or investigation checks, immunity to poison or slash, piercing and bluggeoing, any thing that make they easily see traps or secret doors, etc.

As ToH is written in the new book, will be a piece of cake for 6 lvl 13 characters, so doesn't matter how they get magic itens, if you want to that adventure really looks like ToH, you need to change a lot of things (in fact, most part is about damage from traps and some DC checks).

I haven't went through the whole thing yet, but that's the impression I had as well. It's recommending levels 13+ though... I just don't want it to be easy :(

[Beelzebubba]

and to you Beelsebubba-Go rot!

Edit: gonna take the high road instead.

You said:


You are going to slaughter them and likely just tic them off for no good reason.

I know ToH is a legendary part of D&D's history, but its a part that should be used as a cautionary tale of how NOT to build an adventure at best, or at least simply forgotten.

If that isn't telling people not to bother playing it, what is? Look, don't walk back from it saying 'that's just my opinion' - any opinion worth a damn will have detractors. Own it.

You said 'it will slaughter them and tic them off'. It didn't in the last game I DM'd. After the first false entrance (which didn't kill anyone) they 'got' what the dungeon was about and were incredibly methodical.

(SPOILERS: So many of the traps are *obvious* in retrospect. Like, that famous devil face. Yes, a leering devil face with a completely opaque black mouth. Let's just jump in! What's the worst that can happen? Telegraphed more than a plot twist in a modern Hollywood blockbuster.)

If anything, the risk is: the type of players who can reliably beat the dungeon will find it tedious. The safe way through is usually hidden behind several bluffs, (i.e. the secret door in the bottom of the *third* pit trap in a row), so you have to search everywhere and try everything. That gets old.

If I were to run it again, I'd have an antagonistic party in the dungeon at the same time who appears to be slightly ahead. That would create some drama and a need for haste, and even some comedy and horror if they find bits and pieces of the other party members along the way by each trap. It would also liven it up a bit.

[Hastati]

We're going to play it as way to "retire" our current crop of 12th level characters. Now, when I say "retire", I mean we all expect to die.

[mgshamster]

I haven't went through the whole thing yet, but that's the impression I had as well. It's recommending levels 13+ though... I just don't want it to be easy :(

Just out of curiosity, where is it recommending that level? I have a physical copy of the book, and nowhere in that chapter does it give a level. I should be more precise - I have yet to see anywhere in that chapter where it gives a level recommendation.

All it says is, "Only high level characters stand a chance of surviving."

[Sigreid]

Been a long time since I ran it in AD&D, but if it's like then, let them buy whatever they want. It won't really matter much. They should probably wear red shirts though. 😆

[DanyBallon]

Been a long time since I ran it in AD&D, but if it's like then, let them buy whatever they want. It won't really matter much. They should probably wear red shirts though. ��

Now I want to offer a set of red shirt ond Brown pants before entering the dungeon :smallbiggrin:

As for OP, let them buy anything they want with the recommanded starting gold, and let them choose two uncommon magic items and let them try to survive.

[mgshamster]

My group ran a 5e conversion of this adventure in late 2015.

We ended up using level 10 premade characters. As soon as one died, we'd randomly pick another level 10 premade.

The adventure remained deadly while also letting us keep playing it, and since we were using premade characters, it wasn't a big deal for the PCs to die off.

[Stan]

I haven't received my copy of Yawning Portal yet, but if the Tomb of Horrors lives up to the original...then you are not going to "challenge your players". You are going to slaughter them and likely just tic them off for no good reason.

I know ToH is a legendary part of D&D's history, but its a part that should be used as a cautionary tale of how NOT to build an adventure at best, or at least simply forgotten.

It's been a while, but I remember ToH being not just hard, but arbitrary. In an oops, you're dead, sort of way. Difficult is fine. Totally random destruction is tedious. I haven't seen the 5e version. I hope it's better.

Many people have disdain for it. Here's an example from John Wick (http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-worst-adventure-of-all-times/), where he calls it the worst adventure of all time.

[DanyBallon]

It's been a while, but I remember ToH being not just hard, but arbitrary. In an oops, you're dead, sort of way. Difficult is fine. Totally random destruction is tedious. I haven't seen the 5e version. I hope it's better.

Many people have disdain for it. Here's an example from John Wick (http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-worst-adventure-of-all-times/), where he calls it the worst adventure of all time.

Tomb of Horrors is a death trap and it's what make it appealing. When you run this adventure, the fun is to see how far you can make it before meeting and horrible and absurd doom :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

Thinking about it, it's a pretty good last harah before starting a new one since everyone should be killed in a hopefully entertaining fashion. 😎

[Beelzebubba]

SPOILERS:

Did anyone else read about the one team (I think it was at Origins I) that put the evil crown on Acererak and touched it with the scepter? Everyone wants to think Gygax is some unfairly antagonistic DM, but when he heard that, he said, 'Oh, yeah, that should work. I don't see why not?'

That disintegrate effect wasn't on the 'allowed spell list', but he rewarded that team for being clever. That's all this is about, being clever.

[Tanarii]

Many people have disdain for it. Here's an example from John Wick (http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-worst-adventure-of-all-times/), where he calls it the worst adventure of all time.
That's idiotic. A 12 year old who didn't understand the point of the dungeon as a spin off from tourney play, which is fair. Nor for that matter run gygaxian D&D by how it was supposed to be played at all, as evinced by "I had players with characters level 10-14. What a coincidence", which is as Gygax himself pointed out impossible or shows that the DM is doing something wrong. Also fair for a 12 year old. What's idiotic is when growing up, instead of maturing and learning what mistakes he'd made as a tween, he's held a grudge based on flawed insight.

[War_lord]

Many people have disdain for it. Here's an example from John Wick (http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-worst-adventure-of-all-times/), where he calls it the worst adventure of all time.

And his reason for calling it that was that 12 year old John Wick ran the adventure for a group of fellow tweens not understanding the design intent behind it, which is to be expected. 12 year old John Wick acted like a total jackass, and again, I get a 12 year old are like that. And adult John Wick has decided that the whole episode wasn't the result of 12 year old John being a twerp, it was the fault of nasty old man Gygax, which I find frankly pathetic.

So he dedicated his career to writing for RPG's like White Wolf's output, which heavily discourage actual play in favor of melodrama, because that way no one ever has to summon up an iota of emotional maturity and deal with character death. The whole thing says way more about him then about ToH, which again, was designed for a very particular purpose.

[Stan]

I'm not agreeing with Wick, just giving an example of why many don't like it.
Personally, I found it tedious when I played through it because of the arbitrary nature of it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not agreeing with Wick, just giving an example of why many don't like it.
Personally, I found it tedious when I played through it because of the arbitrary nature of it.

You laughed at and taunted your friends when their characters died? Gee, I wonder why you got a punch in the face? It’s a real mystery alright…. Best response to a weird article.

Nice job, John Wick, reaffirming that your parents were right, and that the game was bad for your development.

Glad you got over it.

[JAL_1138]

When I first played it in AD&D, with a 4-person party of pre-gen characters with one redshirt henchmen each, we lost one PC. Just one, midway through the dungeon—whom the rest of the group had warned not to do the exact thing the person did, because we'd already encountered enough of the traps to be paranoid about taking the "schmuck bait" that most of the traps in it are. The player took control of their redshirt henchman (all the redshirts henchmen survived) and we got through the rest of it fine.

Play paranoid and it's entirely doable, at least in its AD&D incarnation.


We didn't fight the Demilich, just the ghost. The Demilich proper only becomes active if you actually touch the skull, and since the last altar we encountered earlier in the Tomb hit us with a really painful lightning bolt, we avoided getting too near the one with the skull on it, valuable gemstones in the eyes and jaws be damned.

[Dalebert]

I just came here to point out that "TotYP" should be "TftYP".

Carry on with regularly scheduled programming.

[joaber]

I haven't went through the whole thing yet, but that's the impression I had as well. It's recommending levels 13+ though... I just don't want it to be easy :(

So prepare to change it. Maybe you don't want to be hard as original one, but there is some problems that can make this "tomb of dora, the explorer".


Player can rest freely. This was the only chance that players had in old days and not was smart enought to think in that. But in 1e rest was different, you didn't have hit dices at short rest, you didn't recover full hp after long rest and you had arbitrary no save killer traps. Now all is different, so let players recover all with rests doesn't make sense.

most damage traps are 2d10, none is more than 5d10, a setback trap for lvl 11-16 players (DMG) shoud be 4d10, so this doesn't make sense at all when we talk about ToH.

Half of checks are DC 15, perception and investigation checks with that DC for lvl 13 players is auto success. Old ToH state that players should say exactly in what place they're looking for find something, 5e doesn't work that way. So is pretty easy to find the traps.

most monsters aren't challange for high levels, seriously they put an gargoyle (CR2, 200xp) to fight lvl 13? An easy encounter for ONE lvl 13 is 1100xp

If you don't plan (or change) how some encounters will work, they will not. Like Acelerak, he has only 80hp, if he don't get a surprise round, good initiative and perfect actions, he will be destroyed in one round. The old Acelerak was immune to almost everything.

there is more, obviously


So, with all that, is you want to challange, you can't just run what is written.

[elonin]

I haven't played TOH but from what i understand what you bring to it is what you'll get out of it. If you've been playing in a manner that relies on hand holding from the dm you will not likely do well. Many of the people who have played older editions of dnd (at least in my experience) play tougher and think way past possible traps like a tactical experience with a bit of role play thrown in. Also, with a lot of older campaigns death was more frequent with TPK's being more expected.