Sword and board barbarian or shirtless great weapon?

[Vasporos]

Hello again, TPK last night so my first character is in the grave, thought to make a mountain dwarf barbarian to tank. I'm unsure which style is best, looks like a bard might be in the group and third is undecided so far. Appreciate the help, thanks.

[Arkhios]

rage damage resistance coupled with improved AC with shield is certainly useful for a tank-ish character. Attacking recklessly while having better than usual (for barbarian) AC, and cutting most damage to half makes you one sticky and dangerous "speedbump".

[LeonBH]

If you go for Strength-focused, I'd say shirtless great weapon fighter. The +2 AC from the shield doesn't work well with Reckless Attack, so the shield would be a waste.

If you go for Dex-focused, then sword and board.

[Arkhios]

If you go for Strength-focused, I'd say shirtless great weapon fighter. The +2 AC from the shield doesn't work well with Reckless Attack, so the shield would be a waste.

If you go for Dex-focused, then sword and board.

Why wouldn't shield work well with reckless attack? You have bigger AC, so even while enemies have advantage against you, your AC is still higher and can decrease the chance of being hit. Why is this "not working well"?

[Hrugner]

Honestly, just carry both till you get a feel for which one you like more and then keep carrying both. By the time you pick your first feat you should know which direction better suits the game. Generally speaking I say go for the GWM direction though.

[Vasporos]

I was thinking strength based, variant human is also a consideration for race, using the point buy system this time :D

[LeonBH]

Why wouldn't shield work well with reckless attack? You have bigger AC, so even while enemies have advantage against you, your AC is still higher and can decrease the chance of being hit. Why is this "not working well"?

Because disadvantage is an effective -4 to AC, but you've taken a +2 for shield, for a net -2 to AC. Meanwhile, instead of wielding a Greataxe (6.5 ave damage) or Greatsword (7 ave damage), you're wielding a one-handed longsword (4.5 ave damage). You've taken a -2 or -2.5 to damage relative to your two-handed weapon wielding barbarian colleagues.

The idea being, if you're going to Reckless Attack, just embrace the penalty. Rage gives you effectively twice your hitpoints such that AC can almost be neglected (as long as you're going up against creatures your Rage gives you resistance to).

It's "not working well" for me in that regard. A S&B warrior would be better mechanically served by a Rogue or Fighter.

Of course, anything can be done in D&D, so it might work in some campaigns depending on the DM.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think it depends on what you'd prefer to do. I lean more towards LeonBH's opinion, and I'm currently playing a shirtless barbarian with a greataxe using Reckless Attack almost always. I haven't had any issues but we rolled for stats here on the board and mine were pretty good so his AC at the moment is 16 at level 4. I maxed my strength, so next ASI it will go to 18 (+1 dex, +1 con).

[Naanomi]

Both work reasonably; but with Feats in play, Great Weapon Mastery really changes the conversation in favor of the Great Sword/Great Axe to me (in general, specific builds or concepts may vary of course)

[Vasporos]

I didn't think of the disadvantage because of reckless attack, very good point thanks.

In this case I suppose the question is, with what seems to be two casters in the group as of now, will PAM or GWM give more as a starter feat, if variant human?

[LeonBH]

If you're at a low level and you take GWM, your attack bonus will just be +5, +6, or +7 (assuming a PF of 2-3 and a Str mod of 3-4). This means GWM will bring you down to +0, +1, or +2. But with the +10 bonus damage... this really depends. With advantage on those attacks due to Reckless Attack...

I'll assume your base damage is 1d12+3+2 (Greataxe, strength, rage). A quick bit of math tells me you're only getting a good bargain with GWM if you're going up against enemies with 12 to 14 AC or less (depending on your exact to-hit bonus), taking into account the -5 to hit/+10 to damage. Even then, you're only gaining a +2.5 on average when you're trying to hit something with 9 AC to 11 AC and GWM/Reckless Attack.

On the other hand, PAM is great if you had access to Hex, Hunter's Mark, Enlarge/Reduce, or other things that add bonus damage dice on a hit. A single hit with the butt end of the polearm gives +1d4 to your damage, at your full to-hit modifier. Pegging that at even a 50% chance to hit (AC 15 to AC 17), you're getting +1.25 to damage on average whereas GWM is actually giving you an average of -4 damage when attacking the same AC.

On balance... PAM is better at low levels. GWM is a late game feat, you should gain it when your to-hit modifier is high enough. Alternatively, you can sell your soul to an ancient Aztec deity in exchange for lucky dice rolls.

I'd like to point you towards other feats though which could be more interesting. Sentinel for more stickiness, Mage Slayer for being an anti-mage, Tough for higher HP, Mobile for more speed and free Disengage. Lucky is an amazing feat to take as well.

[Contrast]

Its worth noting that Shield Master is a glorious thing when you have a decent strength and advantage on all strength checks.

That said, the main benefit of knocking someone prone is advantage which you have on tap anyway. Would allow you to more easily lock someone down though and means you wouldn't be giving free adv on yourself.

I mostly like the idea on halfling or gnome barbarians who aren't going to be wielding a heavy weapon anyway.

[Naanomi]

Barbarians have stiff competition for bonus actions in many cases... shield master and PAM lose some oomph sometimes in such situations

[Contrast]

Barbarians have stiff competition for bonus actions in many cases... shield master and PAM lose some oomph sometimes in such situations

Stiff competition? Other than activating rage (which you should really be doing at most once a combat and more likely for one round every other combat) what else do they use it for?

Shield master also gives you evasion and shield AC to dex saves which considering you'll often be getting advantage means you can laugh at them mostly.

As I said though its mostly making you better at doing things you can already do and isn't making you do significantly more damage, which other feats can. Hence being best on those who don't lose out on the opportunity cost of the larger weapons.

[Naanomi]

Rage, and every subclass (even totem if you select them) has ways of getting extra attacks with the bonus action

[Contrast]

Huh. Which totem option nets you an attack with a bonus action, must have missed that :smallconfused:

Edit - Elk/Tiger I assume? Man I never registered that at all. Doesn't come online til 14th level though. Thats a long time to wait... /edit

But yeah, if you're playing beserker or battlerager then the already slightly dubious argument for Shield Master is far less compelling I will concede. :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

Huh. Which totem option nets you an attack with a bonus action, must have missed that :smallconfused:

But yeah, if you're playing beserker or battlerager then the already slightly dubious argument for Shield Master is far less compelling I will concede. :smallbiggrin:
Eagle (3), Wolf, Stag, and Tiger (14) all give something to do with bonus actions

[Phoenix042]

Because disadvantage is an effective -4 to AC, but you've taken a +2 for shield, for a net -2 to AC. Meanwhile, instead of wielding a Greataxe (6.5 ave damage) or Greatsword (7 ave damage), you're wielding a one-handed longsword (4.5 ave damage). You've taken a -2 or -2.5 to damage relative to your two-handed weapon wielding barbarian colleagues.

The idea being, if you're going to Reckless Attack, just embrace the penalty. Rage gives you effectively twice your hitpoints such that AC can almost be neglected (as long as you're going up against creatures your Rage gives you resistance to).

It's "not working well" for me in that regard. A S&B warrior would be better mechanically served by a Rogue or Fighter.

Of course, anything can be done in D&D, so it might work in some campaigns depending on the DM.

This is patently false. Barbarians are FANTASTIC shield-users, strength based or otherwise. If a shield makes a fighter harder to kill, it makes a barbarian harder to kill by twice as much. If you can grab shield master at 4th level, you can also bonus-action shove people, which you can do to gain advantage on attacks against them without reckless attack. Even while using reckless attack, wielding a shield synergizes with your choice of race extremely well.

Now don't get me wrong, big heavy weapons work very well on barbarians too, but it's insane to think barbarians somehow make mediocre shield users just because reckless attack works very well with GWM and PAM, as synergizes with high damage characters.

Barbarians make exceptional tanks, and a mountain dwarf with a shield and some way to provoke aggression (even just a lot of taunting) is one of the best tanks in the game. And with rage bonus damage, extra attack, etc, they can still dish decent damage.

So what I'm saying is, it should really be up to what you think your group needs, and what you think would be more fun.



Also disadvantage doesn't work out to a -4 AC. It's more complicated than that, with its effect depending on what your chances of being hit were without it. It has a much greater effect, actually, if your AC is lower. So really shield use synergizes with reckless attack as well as rage and the high HP count of the barbarian.

[BiPolar]

I think you can pretty much optimize towards either direction. I think a better question is do you see your barbarian as a shirtless beast wielding a giant weapon in two hands or swinging a sword and shield?

[Contrast]

I think you can pretty much optimize towards either direction. I think a better question is do you see your barbarian as a shirtless beast wielding a giant weapon in two hands or swinging a sword and shield?

Pfft, the real beast goes shirtless and takes tavern brawler and punches everyone in the face with his shield :smallwink: Thats very suboptimal though so don't do that Vasporos :smalltongue:

[Tanarii]

S&B Barbarian kinda calls out for multiclassing Rogue to me, and there aren't too many times I look a build thread and think multiclassing is where its at. Rapier & Board, Shield Master, and multiclassing Rogue for some (Str-based attack) Sneak Attacks and Expertise Athletics sounds like a lot of fun to play.

This also holds true for S&B Fighters, but players building those are more likely to dump Dex IMX. Whereas Barbarians are typically built as Dex 12-14, so 13 to Multiclass into Rogue isn't a stretch.

[plisnithus7]

I created a minotaur (UE Waterborne) Path of the Storm Herald (UE Barbarian Primal Paths).
I used my horns and a shield with a javelin in the other hand in case I needed a range attack.
The only thing he ever wore was a breast plate on occasion.

[BiPolar]

Pfft, the real beast goes shirtless and takes tavern brawler and punches everyone in the face with his shield :smallwink: Thats very suboptimal though so don't do that Vasporos :smalltongue:

Make it so!

[Vogonjeltz]

Hello again, TPK last night so my first character is in the grave, thought to make a mountain dwarf barbarian to tank. I'm unsure which style is best, looks like a bard might be in the group and third is undecided so far. Appreciate the help, thanks.

Whether to wear armor or not depends entirely on your Dexterity and Constitution Modifiers.

If Dex is no more than +2 (14-15), then Constitution must be more than +2 to make it worth not wearing Hide armor.

Out of curiousity, what was the party make-up for the TPK? What fight did you die on?

[Cl0001]

They both work really well in my opinion. However, I see a lot of people bringing up GWM as a super superior feat which catapults 2 handed over sword and board. However, if you're looking to be a really good tank, then shield master is the counter part to GWM. It tremendously helps your Dex saves, and gives you a good use of your bonus action after you use your rage.

[LeonBH]

And with rage bonus damage, extra attack, etc, they can still dish decent damage.

So what I'm saying is, it should really be up to what you think your group needs, and what you think would be more fun.

He is asking for a specific concrete choice, and I gave him one. :) The fact that Barbarians can still use shields doesn't invalidate what I said. I didn't say Barbarians are useless with a shield. I agree with you they are still decent whatever happens, damage-wise and defense-wise. If you want a S&B Barbarian, be my guest.



Also disadvantage doesn't work out to a -4 AC. It's more complicated than that, with its effect depending on what your chances of being hit were without it. It has a much greater effect, actually, if your AC is lower. So really shield use synergizes with reckless attack as well as rage and the high HP count of the barbarian.

Disadvantage works out to -5 AC when the target to hit is 10, and swings from -1 to -5 depending. But for the sake of not pulling out integrals and calculus here, it's easiest to say it nets a -4 AC as that is how you compute CR in the Monster Manual as well. At any rate, it is still a penalty that shield, on average, does not overcome, but only helps a little bit to compensate for.

[Dudewithknives]

My last barbarian was a mountain dwarf battlerager. Who carried a battle axe and shield.

Battlerager give you a bonus action attack at 1d4, that does not occupy any of your hands, it uses your armor.
If you start with a 17 str, 14 dex, 16 con, you will never really need to boos dex or con.
You can pick up tavern brawler, or something at level 4 to get your 18 str and a bonus of some kind. And a free grapple check after hitting someone.
Mountain Dwarf is great for stats and racial bonuses.
Carried a shied and 1 handed the battle axe if defensive, if offensive 2 hand the battle axe for versatile bonus.
When 2 handing, can always go back to one hand to grapple them to the ground and beat them to death.
It worked out very well.

[Vasporos]

Whether to wear armor or not depends entirely on your Dexterity and Constitution Modifiers.

If Dex is no more than +2 (14-15), then Constitution must be more than +2 to make it worth not wearing Hide armor.

Out of curiousity, what was the party make-up for the TPK? What fight did you die on?

Hello, I was a fighter 1/ rogue 1, an addition the group was a Paladin and a Ranger. The fight was an unnecessary one, Paladin refused to deal with the one eye creature in the manor, choosing to attack it. I unfortunately don't know how to use spoiler tags. The creature ran away and Paladin followed it, in the room were three bug bears. Paladin also at one point used thunderous smite alerting everyone we were there, he never healed us.

Day after the game had a discussion with regards that there are different solutions than attacking, creative play. That's why I'm focusing on a tank build, for the betterment of the group.

Honestly I can see the character using both styles. My modifiers will be + 2 dex , +3 con. I will play the character as being as an aspiring bard, with terrible poetry and music he picked up from urban bounty hunter.

I'm really appreciating all the data and views, thanks!

[Dappershire]

Ever since reading Nysta, I've loved the particular image of a small, thin Elf, smashing into piles of enemies, shoving one or two of a dozen daggers into their chests, spitting blood into their faces, cussing up a frothy storm as she raged.
Synergized? Not in the least.
Pretty to look at? Even less so.
But cool factor is high.