Wildshape and Scrolls

[nickl_2000]

Random question, can a Druid who is Wildshaped read and activate a scroll? The DMG states "Any creature that can understand a written language can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to activate it." Since a Druid retains their intelligence in wildshape, I would think that they should still be able to read the language and thus activate the scroll.

Of course it isn't easy for a bear to gently unroll a scroll and not destroy it, but it seems possible.

[SharkForce]

in this particular case, i believe "read" is intended to mean "read aloud".

otherwise if you read a scroll (silently) to figure out what spell it is, the scroll would activate.

however, if your DM does allow silent reading to activate scrolls, then i see no reason to think that a wildshaped druid couldn't do that. it would probably be a bit awkward for a form that has no hands, and i would probably require an action to extract a scroll from a scroll case without ruining it if you don't have hands (so it might take an extra round to get at the scroll in the first place), but it should be possible.

[DivisibleByZero]

As a DM my ruling wold be simple.
A scroll is basically a How-To-Guide for casting a spell that you don't have prepared/memorized.
Does your wildshape form have the physical capability to cast a spell with all of the potential Verbal, Somatic, and Material components necessary?
The answer is probably (but not necessarily) a resounding No, basically because of the Verbal component. Yes, and ape has hands, but an ape can't speak. Yes, a raven can speak, but a raven has no hands, etc.

[sir_argo]

Yes, a raven can speak, but a raven has no hands

Ah! But if the Druid has the Magic Initiate feat and the Mage Hand cantrip which he cast before wild shaping into a raven, he could unroll the scroll and then read it, right?

Check mate!!

[DivisibleByZero]

Ah! But if the Druid has the Magic Initiate feat and the Mage Hand cantrip which he cast before wild shaping into a raven, he could unroll the scroll and then read it, right?

Check mate!!

Sure, if you can explain how he is going to unroll and hold open a previously rolled up piece of paper with one hand, and then with a second hand that doesn't exist perform the somatic requirements and manipulate the material components.
Sorry, two hands required.
Like I said, it's almost certainly a resounding No from me.

[RickAllison]

As a DM my ruling wold be simple.
A scroll is basically a How-To-Guide for casting a spell that you don't have prepared/memorized.
Does your wildshape form have the physical capability to cast a spell with all of the potential Verbal, Somatic, and Material components necessary?
The answer is probably (but not necessarily) a resounding No, basically because of the Verbal component. Yes, and ape has hands, but an ape can't speak. Yes, a raven can speak, but a raven has no hands, etc.

You don't actually need any components to cast a spell from a spell scroll. You don't need to speak, you don't need to wag your hands, and you don't need a focus or even costly components. So by RAW, the components aren't holding back the Druid's forms. Now there might be other factors, but components aren't one of them without explicit houseruling by the DM.

[DivisibleByZero]

You don't actually need any components to cast a spell from a spell scroll. You don't need to speak, you don't need to wag your hands, and you don't need a focus or even costly components. So by RAW, the components aren't holding back the Druid's forms. Now there might be other factors, but components aren't one of them without explicit houseruling by the DM.

And casting this a an humanoid that would be fine.
Trying to do so while in wildshape wouldn't fly for me unless those requirements were able to be met.

[Tetrasodium]

Sure, if you can explain how he is going to unroll and hold open a previously rolled up piece of paper with one hand, and then with a second hand that doesn't exist perform the somatic requirements and manipulate the material components.
Sorry, two hands required.
Like I said, it's almost certainly a resounding No from me.

People live normal lives with one functioning/present hand after all. They even do things like open something then do what it says and/or manipulate other stuff in some way. I can attest to that myself.

In the grand scheme of things, there is almost no reason to say no unless you've houseruled it to make it so scribing scolls is actually something that can be done with reasonable effort in 5th edition instead of the ones that take 10 days downtime & 25gp+living expenses to make a 50gp potion of healing at a very slight discount.

[RickAllison]

And casting this a an humanoid that would be fine.
Trying to do so while in wildshape wouldn't fly for me unless those requirements were able to be met.

Purely because I relish the irony in light of the Druid threads, then you are houseruling. Not an interpretation of the rules, but actually defying the rules. Which is fine as DM, but it seemed appropriate.

[nickl_2000]

Seems like so much else. If you DM allows it, you can do it. Guess I will have to give it a try, it may go along with the ruling for my Vhuman feat of healer. I can use a healing kit on someone while wildshaped, but the shape must have opposable thumbs

[DivisibleByZero]

Purely because I relish the irony in light of the Druid threads, then you are houseruling. Not an interpretation of the rules, but actually defying the rules. Which is fine as DM, but it seemed appropriate.

How is it ironic?
Unless the Druid who happens to be wildshaped is 18th level or higher, he cannot, by the rules, cast a spell while in wildshape, whether from his slots or from a scroll.
Allowing it at all is the houserule.

Wildshape:
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or
take any action that requires hands is limited to the
capabilities of your beast form.

Furthermore, I go to great lengths to explain in those threads that houserules are fine. Just admit that's what they are and don't try to play them off as following the rules. There is no ambiguity here. You can't cast spells while wildshaped unless you have 18 druid levels.
There is also zero irony here.

[Tetrasodium]

Purely because I relish the irony in light of the Druid threads, then you are houseruling. Not an interpretation of the rules, but actually defying the rules. Which is fine as DM, but it seemed appropriate.

Didn't you get the memo? It's ine if a life cleric takes a feat to make 10 of those 50gp healing potions at 0 cost but maximized... with a first level spell slot "corner case" (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-august-2015]by very tenuous RAW even[/url], that's just one spell's [url="https://twitter.com/DnD_AdvLeague/status/846822511832653824) of a spell.

the effects and details of magic items like a wildshaped druid using a magic item like a scroll?... Why, that could have " larger effect on the campaign as a whole" ([url="https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/846810994282254336).

[BiPolar]

As a DM my ruling wold be simple.
A scroll is basically a How-To-Guide for casting a spell that you don't have prepared/memorized.
Does your wildshape form have the physical capability to cast a spell with all of the potential Verbal, Somatic, and Material components necessary?
The answer is probably (but not necessarily) a resounding No, basically because of the Verbal component. Yes, and ape has hands, but an ape can't speak. Yes, a raven can speak, but a raven has no hands, etc.

I think your conclusion is correct, but the process maynot be. As you stated later, Wild Shape has the rule that "You can't cast spells." That's a full stop right there. The reason as to WHY you can't cast spells may be what you have above (and probably is), but I can't see a reason as to how this would be possible because of the simple and clear limitation of "Can't cast spells."

[DivisibleByZero]

I think your conclusion is correct, but the process maynot be. As you stated later, Wild Shape has the rule that "You can't cast spells." That's a full stop right there. The reason as to WHY you can't cast spells may be what you have above (and probably is), but I can't see a reason as to how this would be possible because of the simple and clear limitation of "Can't cast spells."

Which is why there is one, and only one, time I would allow it. That time being if the wildshaped druid were physically capable of casting the spell's V/S/M components.
As it stands, I can't think of a single beast that could do it. That may change over time.

[BiPolar]

Which is why there is one, and only one, time I would allow it. That time being if the wildshaped druid were physically capable of casting the spell's V/S/M components.
As it stands, I can't think of a single beast that could do it. That may change over time.

Yeah, but even then the rules are pretty clear that you simply "Can't Cast Spells" while wild shaped. A houserule to allow it if a beast was capable wouldn't necessarily be unreasonable, but I"m guessing that it was a balance issue to continue giving your casting ability while getting the wild shape benefits.

[nickl_2000]

I think your conclusion is correct, but the process maynot be. As you stated later, Wild Shape has the rule that "You can't cast spells." That's a full stop right there. The reason as to WHY you can't cast spells may be what you have above (and probably is), but I can't see a reason as to how this would be possible because of the simple and clear limitation of "Can't cast spells."

There is a few ways that one could poke holes in that argument though.
1) A barbarian can't cast spells as they specifically do not have a spell casting feature. Yet, I think it's fair to say that a barbarian could activate a scroll.
2) When you are activating a scroll, are you actually casting the spell? This is more of an interpretation situation. One could easily argue that it is the scrolls creator who already cast the spell, and in doing so placed it onto the scroll.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Frankly what is right/wrong all completely depends on what you as a group agree upon. If it can be done, great, if it can't be done, great.

[Naanomi]

The game doesn't go into this much detail, of course, but most animals don't have the fine ocular motor control to read even if they have the cognitive ability

[DivisibleByZero]

Yeah, but even then the rules are pretty clear that you simply "Can't Cast Spells" while wild shaped. A houserule to allow it if a beast was capable wouldn't necessarily be unreasonable, but I"m guessing that it was a balance issue to continue giving your casting ability while getting the wild shape benefits.

We're not talking about castiong spells in general.
I meant that I would allow a druid to cast a spell from a scroll while wildshaped if, and only if, they could meet those reqs.
Scrolls, and how many the players have, and what they are, are easy for the DM to control. So this wouldn't be a balance issue unless the DM let it be one.

[DivisibleByZero]

2) When you are activating a scroll, are you actually casting the spell? This is more of an interpretation situation. One could easily argue that it is the scrolls creator who already cast the spell, and in doing so placed it onto the scroll.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Frankly what is right/wrong all completely depends on what you as a group agree upon. If it can be done, great, if it can't be done, great.

SPELL SCROLL
Scroll, varies
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written - a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class's spell list you can use an action to read the scroll and cast its spell without yada yada yada

You are casting the spell via the scroll.

[Tetrasodium]

How is it ironic?
Unless the Druid who happens to be wildshaped is 18th level or higher, he cannot, by the rules, cast a spell while in wildshape, whether from his slots or from a scroll.
Allowing it at all is the houserule.

Wildshape:
You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or
take any action that requires hands is limited to the
capabilities of your beast form.

Furthermore, I go to great lengths to explain in those threads that houserules are fine. Just admit that's what they are and don't try to play them off as following the rules. There is no ambiguity here. You can't cast spells while wildshaped unless you have 18 druid levels.
There is also zero irony here.

Theer you go joining DBZ houseruling again. after all you guys argued "you are houseruling", I'd expect you to actually check if the rules say what you two think they say.



SCROLLS

Most scrolls are spells stored in written form, while

a few bear unique incantations that produce potent
wards. Whatever its contents, a scroll is a roll of paper,
sometimes attached to wooden rods, and typically kept
safe in a tube of ivory, jade, leather, metal, or wood.

A scroll is a consumable magic item. Whatever the
nature of the magic contained in a scroll, unleashing
that magic requires using an action to read the scroll.
When its magic has been invoked, the scroll can't be
used again. Its words fade, or it crumbles into dust.

Any creature that can understand a written language
can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to
activate it.
Huh, not a word about casting anything. It's almost as if "you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, W isdom , and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."

But hmmm...
I know that I've seen that wording somewhere, perhaps the lower left hand side of phb67... The two of you want to be hyper literal if it means potentially denying a druid something; but druid wants to do something the rules explicitly allow?... any feeble reason to say no is fine accurate by RAW or not.

I mean, If you want to say no to a druid in your game, go ahead, but don't blame your biases & choices on the rules.

[RickAllison]

SPELL SCROLL
Scroll, varies
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written - a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class's spell list you can use an action to read the scroll and cast its spell without yada yada yada

You are casting the spell via the scroll.

While BiPolar's point on the Wild Shape text excluding this has a lot of merit and I imagine is enough to justify a DM's ruling, I do not imagine it is a coincidence that you cut off your quote right before the DMG restates that you don't need components for the scrolls and thus that there are no grounds for needing the ability to use those components. So while the specific rule on Wild Shape prevents it, something like Shapechange that lets you take a form that would otherwise be incapable of using the components but without the text specifically excluding spells should be fine. Just as a wizard who has his arms removed, is separated from his focus, and in an area of Silence can still use that Wish scroll.

[DivisibleByZero]

While BiPolar's point on the Wild Shape text excluding this has a lot of merit and I imagine is enough to justify a DM's ruling, I do not imagine it is a coincidence that you cut off your quote right before the DMG restates that you don't need components for the scrolls and thus that there are no grounds for needing the ability to use those components. So while the specific rule on Wild Shape prevents it, something like Shapechange that lets you take a form that would otherwise be incapable of using the components but without the text specifically excluding spells should be fine. Just as a wizard who has his arms removed, is separated from his focus, and in an area of Silence can still use that Wish scroll.

BiPolar's point?
He was echoing my point.

Spell Scroll states that you are casting the spell.
Wildshape states that you can't cast spells.
So a Wildshaped Druid can't use a spell scroll without an houserule, and that is the topic of discussion here. Not some Shapechanged anybody. A Wildshaped Druid.

Don't be that guy, Rick. You're better than that.

[Naanomi]

I'd agree that 'no spell casting' covers scrolls or other sources that are explicitly spells. Remember this needs to cover raging barbarians as well, right?

[BiPolar]

BiPolar's point?
He was echoing my point.

Spell Scroll states that you are casting the spell.
Wildshape states that you can't cast spells.
So a Wildshaped Druid can't use a spell scroll without an houserule, and that is the topic of discussion here. Not some Shapechanged anybody. A Wildshaped Druid.

Don't be that guy, Rick. You're better than that.

And DBZ and I are agreeing and the text does support this. I'm having a really hard time, besides going with DBZ's houserule to allow it if the beast is functionally capable of it, to allow wild shape spellcasting.

[DivisibleByZero]

And DBZ and I are agreeing and the text does support this. I'm having a really hard time, besides going with DBZ's houserule to allow it if the beast is functionally capable of it, to allow wild shape spellcasting.

It's a ridiculous corner case.
If I were DM, and the druid was currently wildshaped, and said druid had a particular spell scroll that I gave him, and that particular spell scroll was just what the doctor ordered to save the day, and the wildshaped druid were currently in a form which could potentially cast the spell on its own using V/S/M components (of which there are zero at this time) ....
....then I'd allow it.

Which basically means it would never, ever happen.

[RickAllison]

And DBZ and I are agreeing and the text does support this. I'm having a really hard time, besides going with DBZ's houserule to allow it if the beast is functionally capable of it, to allow wild shape spellcasting.

I agreed with your point. I disagreed with DBZ's original argument, which was that they couldn't do so because of an inability to perform the components. I even stated in the original response that there were likely other factors that would prevent Wild Shape scroll usage, but that components were not one of them. The Wild Shape rule preventing it was sound (and I stated it as such), but component usage doesn't factor into it. I never stated that Druids could use the spell scroll, and later elaborated with a specific example of a Shapechanged person being able to use the spell scroll in the same beast forms because the only restriction is from the feature rather than the method of casting.

It is very possible for a person to have the correct answer, but to have reached it erroneously. DBZ was in that camp until you posted the correct answer, reaching the same answer as you but from a fundamentally flawed argument. His logic was like arguing a specific nuclear reactor cannot sustain a reaction, then claiming it was due to a insufficient fuel when the real problem is xenon poisoning; he had the correct answer, but the work leading up to it was flat wrong.

[DivisibleByZero]

I agreed with your point. I disagreed with DBZ's original argument, which was that they couldn't do so because of an inability to perform the components.
Except for the tiny little fact that this wasn't my stance at all.

As a DM my ruling wold be simple.
<snip>
I never said anything about why they couldn't do it. I said under which circumstances I would allow it, and expressed the reasoning why.


It is very possible for a person to have the correct answer, but to have reached it erroneously. DBZ was in that camp until you posted the correct answer, reaching the same answer as you but from a fundamentally flawed argument. His logic was like arguing a specific nuclear reactor cannot sustain a reaction, then claiming it was due to a insufficient fuel when the real problem is xenon poisoning; he had the correct answer, but the work leading up to it was flat wrong.
False once again.
First of all, I never erroneously reached anything with a flawed argument.
Secondly, he didn't post the correct answer. One more time.
I DID.
In fact, BiP hadn't even posted in this thread until AFTER I said what you're claiming came from him.

I don't know why you seem to have such an hard on for me today.

[tkuremento]

I'd agree that 'no spell casting' covers scrolls or other sources that are explicitly spells. Remember this needs to cover raging barbarians as well, right?

"Any creature that can understand a written language can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to activate it." DMG 139

"If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use an action to read the scroll and cast its spell without having to provide any of the spell's components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." DMG 200

In the same book it contradicts itself(?) so I am confused on if a non-caster can cast scrolls (besides Theif Rogue) or if you can even cast scrolls not on your list. I am NOT arguing any specific way, I am just very confused.

[DivisibleByZero]

"Any creature that can understand a written language can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to activate it." DMG 139

"If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use an action to read the scroll and cast its spell without having to provide any of the spell's components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." DMG 200

In the same book it contradicts itself(?) so I am confused on if a non-caster can cast scrolls (besides Theif Rogue) or if you can even cast scrolls not on your list. I am NOT arguing any specific way, I am just very confused.

The book doesn't contradict itself.
There are two different kinds of scrolls.
One kind are general scrolls that anyone can use, like a scroll of protection (at this moment, it's the only one in this category that I can think of). Those are the rules you just posted. (dmg 139)
The second kind are spell scrolls, which have their own rules, which differ from regular, non-spell scrolls. Those rules are under the Spell Scroll listing. (dmg 200)

Basically, if a scroll has it's own effect and doesn't cast a spell, as in, not a spell from the Spells section of the PHB, then you use the rules on pg 139.
If the scroll does cast a spell from the Spells section, like for instance Fireball, then you use the Spell Scroll rules, which are different and more strict and you use the rules on pg 200.

[tkuremento]

The book doesn't contradict itself.
There are two different kinds of scrolls.
One kind are general scrolls that anyone can use, like a scroll of protection (at this moment, it's the only one in this category that I can think of). Those are the rules you just posted. (dmg 139)
The second kind are spell scrolls, which have their own rules, which differ from regular, non-spell scrolls. Those rules are under the Spell Scroll listing. (dmg 200)

Basically, if a scroll has it's own effect and doesn't cast a spell, as in, not a spell from the Spells section of the PHB, then you use the rules on pg 139.
If the scroll does cast a spell from the Spells section, like for instance Fireball, then you use the Spell Scroll rules, which are different and more strict and you use the rules on pg 200.

Ok, that makes sense, though like wow why make all these rules for ONE item?
Edit: Ok, yea I can see it now. 139 is general and 200 is specific and specific trumps general so 139 applies in cases where 200 doesn't. Gotcha

[nickl_2000]

Ok, that makes sense, though like wow why make all these rules for ONE item?

No kidding, this is why I was so confused in the first place.

[DivisibleByZero]

Yes, there was much confusion a couple of years ago when the DMG released, until we put the pieces together, and then it made sense.

[Vogonjeltz]

Random question, can a Druid who is Wildshaped read and activate a scroll? The DMG states "Any creature that can understand a written language can read the arcane script on a scroll and attempt to activate it." Since a Druid retains their intelligence in wildshape, I would think that they should still be able to read the language and thus activate the scroll.

Of course it isn't easy for a bear to gently unroll a scroll and not destroy it, but it seems possible.

"You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak is limited or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form." (PHB 67)

So, no. Intelligence score is irrelevant.
Druid level 18 allows a druid to cast druid spells while in wild shape, which almost opens the way.

Except, game statistics, which includes languages, are replaced by those of the beast form that is assumed. (PHB 67)
If the shape has no language they can't read the scroll.

Also also, this would have to be a scroll that didn't merge with the Druid when they changed forms.


Yes, a raven can speak, but a raven has no hands, etc.

Ravens can't speak, they can imitate sounds, which isn't the same thing.

Also, a Raven has no languages.

[BiPolar]

Ravens can't speak, they can imitate sounds, which isn't the same thing.

Also, a Raven has no languages.

The languages is still an issue, but the kenku can only imititate sounds and they can still cast spells.

[Vogonjeltz]

The languages is still an issue, but the kenku can only imititate sounds and they can still cast spells.

Yes, but aren't they listed as speaking common or something?

Points for originality though, if the Druid were natively a Kenku I'd rule they knew enough to make it work as a Raven.