Is the Spiritualist As Much Hassle As It Looks?

[Palanan]

I’ve been trying to read through the spiritualist from Occult Adventures, but I’m confused by some of its features, and it seems like this could be a huge hassle for players and GMs alike.

I really like the basic concept, but I’m not clear on the different states the phantom can exist in, or the revolving door with the Ethereal Plane. I especially don’t grok the distinction between ectoplasmic and incorporeal states—I don’t know the difference in game terms, and I’m not sure what “ectoplasmic” really is, or why it’s necessary to the class. There doesn’t seem to be a basic definition of ectoplasm anywhere in the book.

Beyond this, I’m a little confused by Table 1-11, which shows the phantom’s advancement by level. Do you have to essentially rebuild the phantom at every new level? Do you roll for hit points at every level, or take an average, or something else? Are there rules governing when it can be Large? Is it completely under the spiritualist’s control, or do its intelligence and emotional focus mean it sometimes disobeys or works at cross-purposes?

This may be obvious to others, but much of it is confusing to me—and keeping track of the phantom seems paperwork-intensive for the player, as well as a minor headache for the GM. Is this how it works out in practice?

[Wartex1]

For Ectoplasmic vs Incorporeal:

Ectoplasmic is a physical form which the phantom can take to fully interact with physical creatures, while Incorporeal is exactly what it says on the tin.

As for the table of progression, handle it like an animal companion. Whenever the the Hit Die increases, roll for it and add it to the current max HP or take the average, whatever your table does.

The phantom could disobey, but its best if it doesn't. Treat it like a cohort, but the Spiritualist has a bit more control. The phantom has its own motives and thoughts, but it should follow the Spiritualist.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Wartex1
Ectoplasmic is a physical form which the phantom can take to fully interact with physical creatures, while Incorporeal is exactly what it says on the tin.

Okay, thanks. Is “ectoplasm” ever defined anywhere in the book?

This is especially confusing because there’s an Ectoplasmic Creature template from Bestiary 4, which is specifically described as a type of undead. And yet somewhere in the spiritualist description, I’m pretty sure there’s a line about the phantom not being undead and not affected by positive energy.

Are there two different kinds of ectoplasm going on here? :smallconfused:


Originally Posted by Wartex1
Whenever the the Hit Die increases, roll for it and add it to the current max HP or take the average, whatever your table does.

Is this meant to be understood from the table? It doesn’t give a lot of guidance, and while what you say certainly makes practical sense, I’m wondering why they left it so vague.


Originally Posted by Wartex1
The phantom could disobey, but its best if it doesn't.

Are there any guidelines for the GM on whether a phantom can disobey, and what to do if it does? I can’t find any text about the degree of a phantom’s autonomy.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Here's some light reading. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u4SF3ZU20zl2eyuXzJuhPgj7eXkVaM6rmqB63y6vKPM/edit)

It'll at the very least help you understand the different states of the phantom.

As for its autonomy, that's up for GM discussion. It's likely as autonomous as an eidolon; generally on your side, but if you're doing something it doesn't like, it might not cooperate. Fortunately, shoving it back inside your noggin is a good temporary solution to such a problem.

As for calculating hp, companion creatures like animal companions, eidolons, and phantoms take the average hp value. Note that they don't get full hp at level 1! They are not creatures with a PC class.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
Here's some light reading.

There doesn't seem to be a link here--at least not one that I can click on.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Whoops, that was me failing at basic formatting. Derp. The link should work now.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks for the corrected link.

I’m glad that the first sentence of your guide calls out the spiritualist as the most complex of the classes from Occult Aventures. That makes me feel slightly less dense. Also good to know I’m not wrong in feeling this class has twice the new rules to learn.

(And I assume Nova is joking when he mentions “a significantly higher level of completeness and prooofreading”?)

So, at about page 32 there’s some discussion and comparison of ectoplasmic vs. incorporeal states for the phantom. This does help me understand the difference a little better, although I still don’t have a firm sense of what “ectoplasmic” really is. The fact that it’s more or less solid, but still able to pass through walls, is what really throws me. And a little later you mention ectoplasmic residue like it’s a bad thing, but I’m not sure what that is.

I can appreciate the amount of time and effort required to put together this guide. That said, and nothing on the guide itself, but at this point I’m finding the spiritualist way too complicated to work with. Maybe it’s just my bafflement with all things ectoplasmic, but the spiritualist seems overengineered, and definitely not intuitive.

[Psyren]

I still don’t have a firm sense of what “ectoplasmic” really is. The fact that it’s more or less solid, but still able to pass through walls, is what really throws me.

It's not hard; Ectoplasmic = corporeal, but it has an ability called Phase Lurch that lets it turn sort-of-incorporeal while moving - enough to pass through walls and obstacles. But like a phase spider, it returns to solidity when it's done, so you have to begin and end outside of a wall or other solid. On top of that, you can't use this ability to pass through creatures (meaning the Phantom will have to do normal things like Acrobatics to get past them.)

As for how it works as a pet, it's more or less a weaker eidolon with less customizability.

[Florian]

Okay, thanks. Is “ectoplasm” ever defined anywhere in the book?

Ectoplasm is just crudely manifested ethereal matter. It´s "non stuff" for practical purposes, that´s why it´s not typed or further defined, as you can´t do anything with it. In case of the Spiritualist, it´s your phantom pushing through the boundaries and using ectoplasm to affect the real world.

When your phantom switches mode, it´s either "there" or "not there" and that´s it.

[CasualViking]

As for how it works as a pet, it's more or less a weaker eidolon with less customizability.

This. Apparently it's meant to be a scout and a mobile debuff zone, not a Fighter-as-a-Class-Feature like the Eidolon.

[Florian]

This. Apparently it's meant to be a scout and a mobile debuff zone, not a Fighter-as-a-Class-Feature like the Eidolon.

The class dynamics are totally different. The spiritualist is more actual combatant then caster, therefore you team up more with your phantom than a summoner would with the eidolon.

[Serafina]

It may be less customizable, but it actually gets unique abilities.

Lust gets a taunt-ability as an immediate action - sadly it only works to protect the Spiritualist, but it's still pretty unique and useful.

Jealousy is also a pretty good tank, at least from 7th level onward, since enemies who don't attack it have a good chance of becoming staggered.
An incorporeal Jealousy-Phantom with Ability Focus (Resentful Aura) is really really nasty against melee-enemies - they'll be in it's aura, and each time they attack anyone but the incorporeal Phantom, they face a challenging DC or become staggered. That can be a gamechanger, and no other class can do something like that.

Fear is really really good at intimidating and if you give it Dazzling Display, can get some pretty good crowd control out of it. If your GM allows Damnation feats on your phantom, it can also enable a nasty coup-de-grace build.

Despair gives enemies -2 to saves, without allowing a save against that, which can be pretty nasty if you or another caster exploit that.

You can't do any of these things with an Eidolon, and in some cases not with any class.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
As for how it works as a pet, it's more or less a weaker eidolon with less customizability.

Alas, this comparison is mainly lost on me. I’ve never played a summoner, and in the last Pathfinder game I played in summoners were banned completely.

If the eidolon is a more complicated version of a phantom—gawd.


Originally Posted by Florian
Ectoplasm is just crudely manifested ethereal matter. It´s "non stuff" for practical purposes, that´s why it´s not typed or further defined….

Not sure why it wouldn’t be defined, since it seems like a unique state of matter, and pretty much everything else in the game has some kind of baseline definition.

Is there really no text anywhere in the Pathfinder corpus that lays out what ectoplasm is and what it can do?

[Psyren]

Alas, this comparison is mainly lost on me. I’ve never played a summoner, and in the last Pathfinder game I played in summoners were banned completely.

If the eidolon is a more complicated version of a phantom—gawd.

If you don't mind my asking, why are you interested in the Spiritualist then? It's basically "Psychic Summoner" with a few unique twists, but if you're not familiar with that baseline from the APG then you'll likely be much better off playing something else.



Not sure why it wouldn’t be defined, since it seems like a unique state of matter, and pretty much everything else in the game has some kind of baseline definition.

Is there really no text anywhere in the Pathfinder corpus that lays out what ectoplasm is and what it can do?

Why does there need to be? "Stuff physical spirits are made of" is literally all you need. Look at the artwork and there you have it.

[Florian]

Alas, this comparison is mainly lost on me. I’ve never played a summoner, and in the last Pathfinder game I played in summoners were banned completely.

If the eidolon is a more complicated version of a phantom—gawd.

For practical purposes, think of the eidolon as a second character that can buy and equip abilities based on a number of build points. That means you can build a very well rounded eidolon, or go the usual OP way.


Not sure why it wouldn’t be defined, since it seems like a unique state of matter, and pretty much everything else in the game has some kind of baseline definition.

Is there really no text anywhere in the Pathfinder corpus that lays out what ectoplasm is and what it can do?

There´s no need to.

[Florian]

Maybe that helps with handling the complexity a bit:

A phantom comes with some different modes, only one of those can be active.

1) Shared Consciousness. It´s passive, parked in your mind and provides skill focus as well as a second save against certain effects.

2) Bonded Manifestation. It´s active, but still parked in your body and mind. It´s either (a) corporeal or (b) ethereal and provides buffs to the spiritualist.

3) Tethered. It´s active an free-roaming, either (a) corporeal or (b) ethereal.

Options 1 to 2(b) are buffing the spiritualist, 3(a) and 3(b) drop the buffs for the phantom as a character.

[Vhaidara]

Not sure why it wouldn’t be defined, since it seems like a unique state of matter, and pretty much everything else in the game has some kind of baseline definition.

Is there really no text anywhere in the Pathfinder corpus that lays out what ectoplasm is and what it can do?

Ectoplasm is like the phantom's skin in physical form. It doesn't need to be defined any more than skin does for humans, or stone for a stone golem, or fire for a fire elemental.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
If you don't mind my asking, why are you interested in the Spiritualist then? It's basically "Psychic Summoner" with a few unique twists, but if you're not familiar with that baseline from the APG then you'll likely be much better off playing something else.

I had no idea the spiritualist was supposed to be a “psychic summoner” or anything else—I was approaching it on its own, trying to understand it from what was presented in the class description. I didn’t realize I was supposed to know it was based on something else.


Originally Posted by Keledrath
Ectoplasm is like the phantom's skin in physical form. It doesn't need to be defined any more than skin does for humans, or stone for a stone golem, or fire for a fire elemental.

Except human skin doesn’t let us walk through walls. Skin, stone and fire are well-known from daily life and their properties are intuitive, but ectoplasm isn’t.

I can see your point; I just wish the book had actually made some effort to describe this unique substance, with its unique properties and unique residue, as well as clarifying how it’s different from the other ectoplasm in Bestiary 4, which is apparently eeeeeeevil.

No need to discuss this more. For me, the answer to the thread title is an overwhelming “yes,” and I’m too frustrated to spend more time trying to understand it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I can't speak for Paizo, but I believe the reason they don't get into the ins and outs of ectoplasm very much is they assume you have a passing familiarity with the ectoplasmic creature template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/ectoplasmic-creature-cr-1/), for some reason.

It was the first appearance of the 'phase lurch' ability, as far as I know.

If nothing else, it's some more reading on the nature of ectoplasm. Note that an ectoplasmic creature is undead, but a phantom is NOT undead, but an outsider. WEE!

[Psyren]

I had no idea the spiritualist was supposed to be a “psychic summoner” or anything else—I was approaching it on its own, trying to understand it from what was presented in the class description. I didn’t realize I was supposed to know it was based on something else.

It's not required - I only brought it up because the Summoner has been around for several years, so it might have helped as a basis of comparison. I had no way of knowing that Spiritualist would be your first pet class after years of Pathfinder is all.



No need to discuss this more. For me, the answer to the thread title is an overwhelming “yes,” and I’m too frustrated to spend more time trying to understand it.

Well, not really - for you it seems to be, but that's not the same as the more general question in the thread title.



If nothing else, it's some more reading on the nature of ectoplasm. Note that an ectoplasmic creature is undead, but a phantom is NOT undead, but an outsider. WEE!

Per the Phantom fluff, they came very close to being undead, and managed to escape the NEP at the last second by latching onto a burgeoning Spiritualist's psychic homing beacon (and thus taking up residence in their skull.)

[CockroachTeaParty]

Indeed, to answer the thread title's question, I don't think the spiritualist is any more or less of a hassle than any other 'pet class.' Understanding the different states of your phantom is about the same level of complexity as having access to your eidolon's stats as well as pulling up the various summon monster lists at any given time.

Even the hunter or druid can get complicated with their animal companions, especially if your GM is a hardass about tricks and Handle Animal.

I'd argue that a spiritualist requires less bookkeeping than a dedicated necromancer, for instance. Of course, a spiritualist can learn Animate Dead if you want to add complexity to complexity!

[Wartex1]

Just think of ectoplasm as largely inert ghostly goop. Its sort of slimy, and with great effort, can be willed to pass through solid objects like it was incorporeal, but its only partially incorporeal, if that makes sense.

You don't even have to think about ectoplasm's properties at all. Just go with what the class itself tells you.

[Vogie]

The entire class better described as a simplified version of the White Wolf game Geist: The Sin-Eaters than to the summoner. You do get a Phantom, which you can choose to act as a:

tethered incorporeal utility buffer/scout, or
tethered corporeal summon with life link, as the phantom can wear armor in a corporeal form, although you are sharing magic item slots, and cannot use weapons, just having a pair of Slam attacks, or
a bonded incorporeal buff to the spiritualist, granting progressive concealment and ghost touch, or
a bonded corporeal buff to the spiritualist, granting a shield (with no spellcasting penalties) and tendrils, and progressively turning into a full suit of armor (still no penalties) and weapon.

Ectoplasm is generally considered a gel-like substance in most cases, similar to a non-Newtonian liquid, and the Occult adventures will often mention when it hardens. Traditionally, it's a soft white-blue-green color, feels like wet cheesecloth or mucus, is cool to the touch, and ectoplasm that has been cast off evaporates quickly. It is something physical that "holds" the spirit on a material plane, allowing it to interact with the physical world - so an ectoplasmic Phantom can't walk through walls... but they could shed the ectoplasm on one side of the wall, pass through as a spirit, and reform on the other side, giving the appearance of "walking through the wall". This is referred to in Occult Adventures as "Phase Lurch" and does explicitly mention that leftover ectoplasm in passing, "Any surface it moves through is coated with a thin, silvery mucus that lingers for 1 minute."

This is the same stuff that phantom steeds, phantom drivers, ghost whips, spiritual weapons, Twilight knives, et cetera, are made with and what spirit-bound blades or any weapons with ghost touch are coated with.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CTP
I can't speak for Paizo, but I believe the reason they don't get into the ins and outs of ectoplasm very much is they assume you have a passing familiarity with the ectoplasmic creature template, for some reason.

Yes, I’ve referenced this template earlier in the thread, and it’s a large part of my confusion. The template form of ectoplasm seems to be inherently malignant, pain-wracked and evil, and that’s very different from how the phantom’s ectoplasm is described. The template explicitly describes ectoplasm as “undead matter,” which is very much not how the phantom is described.

So it feels like two different kinds of ectoplasm—which is why I wondered if there was a clear-cut definition for a phantom’s ectoplasm, which might differentiate it from the template version.


Originally Posted by CTP
Indeed, to answer the thread title's question, I don't think the spiritualist is any more or less of a hassle than any other 'pet class.' Understanding the different states of your phantom is about the same level of complexity as having access to your eidolon's stats as well as pulling up the various summon monster lists at any given time.

When I first started playing 3.5, in August of 2003, my first character was a druid. I was completely new to the d20 system, but I never had any trouble managing an animal companion, spell lists, summoned creatures or the other class features.

Maybe I’m just unusually dense, but I find the spiritualist to be almost incomprehensible compared to the druid. It's certainly not user-friendly to those of us who are still relatively new to Pathfinder.


Originally Posted by Vogie
Ectoplasm is generally considered a gel-like substance in most cases, similar to a non-Newtonian liquid, and the Occult adventures will often mention when it hardens. Traditionally, it's a soft white-blue-green color, feels like wet cheesecloth or mucus, is cool to the touch, and ectoplasm that has been cast off evaporates quickly.

Where are you getting all this? What book, what section, what page?

I haven’t read every page of Occult Adventures, but I did check the index for other instances, and I didn’t see anything about ectoplasm hardening.


Originally posted by Vogie
This is the same stuff that phantom steeds, phantom drivers, ghost whips, spiritual weapons, Twilight knives, et cetera, are made with and what spirit-bound blades or any weapons with ghost touch are coated with.

And where are you getting all of this?

The CRB entry for Spiritual Weapon describes it as a force effect, with no ectoplasm involved. It’s not mentioned under the entry for Phantom Steed, either.

[Florian]

@Palanan:

I don´t know if you´re using the PRD/PDSRD only or if you´re actually into the Golarion-specific fluff, but everything undead-related is heavily based on emotions and it´s pretty much impossible to play any kind of "sane" undead in this setting.

A lot of undead are created by powerful emotions and then "frozen in time", their whole existence being centered on the emotions they had upon death. So a creature dying from extreme fear will have this fear imprinted as their regular thought pattern should they arise as undead, and so on.

The ectoplasmic creature is exactly this kind im imprint, a phantom, and their specific focus, is another one.

On another note: If you want to test-drive the spiritualist, go for a melee-based build with the anger phantom and focus on the bonded manifestation feature first, try switching to tethered mode from there on out when necessary.

[Vhaidara]

Except human skin doesn’t let us walk through walls. Skin, stone and fire are well-known from daily life and their properties are intuitive, but ectoplasm isn’t.

That's not a property of ectoplasm, that's a property of the phantom's phase lurch ability.

And you build a phantom the exact same way you build an animal companion in PF. You follow the table to get the HD and related stats, and then it gets special abilities based on its type.

[Psyren]

Maybe I’m just unusually dense, but I find the spiritualist to be almost incomprehensible compared to the druid. It's certainly not user-friendly to those of us who are still relatively new to Pathfinder.

I don't think you're dense at all - but to repeat myself, it really isn't that complicated. A quick look at Spiritualist help threads on Paizo are less "how the heck does this work" (something I see more often with Magus and Kineticist) and more "help me build a good one/is this build a good idea?"


Yes, I’ve referenced this template earlier in the thread, and it’s a large part of my confusion. The template form of ectoplasm seems to be inherently malignant, pain-wracked and evil, and that’s very different from how the phantom’s ectoplasm is described. The template explicitly describes ectoplasm as “undead matter,” which is very much not how the phantom is described.

So it feels like two different kinds of ectoplasm—which is why I wondered if there was a clear-cut definition for a phantom’s ectoplasm, which might differentiate it from the template version.

I addressed this above; they are not identical, but are closely related. Phantom ectoplasm and undead ectoplasm are homonyms, and the former was basically saved by a spiritualist before it could become the latter. (Most likely a Ghost, Wraith or similar.)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

As far as I'm aware, ectoplasm slime has always been a vague result of things interacting with the Ethereal Plane. There are how many spells that use it?