Character Concept Optimization Assistance

[Mr.J]

Greetings

I've been attempting to complete my character concept for a campaign and whilst finishing the concept was easy, I can't exactly find a class for it. The concept is basically a front line fighter w/ divine magic whom is stalwart in his fight to preserve order. Sounds a lot like a Paladin, right? I can't decide if he, who would be swinging a greatsword for his main damage, would be better off being a War Cleric 3rd level + Fighter the rest of the levels for the extra attacks, but if he would be better off as a Paladin Oath of Vengeance all the way through, maybe a Paladin as well as a Fighter. I just can't choose! I don't know what's the best, but I want him to lay down the law.

[BladedWizard]

I suggest Paladin Oath of the Crown from SCAG. It's the tankiest of the Oath.

One of the tenets is all about the Law.

[Theodoxus]

Sounds like a dwarf Fighter/Cleric I had in 2nd Ed... I still build him from time to time in various systems, but nothing has yet to capture that original feel. I feel your pain :smallwink:

When coming at a character like this, where I can multiple options on how to build it, I try to determine the #1 overarching 'catch' for the character. Is your guy in any way a healer? Would he stop to cure a town of disease or does he leave that up to the namby-pamby's of his order? We know you want him to be the epitome of the holy fighter - but are you using divine spells to bolster yourself, or your comrades? How often do you see your character casting spells on other things (allies, enemies, the door... whatever).

If you're looking for a divine caster, straight cleric will do it all. If you really want those extra attacks, War certainly works. If you're ok with just a single slash, Tempest is on par. If you want to Look the Part, a Life cleric swinging a mace is that in spades.

If you're looking for more of a divine gish, straight paladin will do it all. Fewer spells, and a slower progression makes the cleric laugh at this dude, but Smiting is pure melee joy that turns on when you need it and can be ignored when you don't. Don't even need to waste slots on healing, as Lay on Hands does the heavy lifting on the occasion you (or your friends) get hurt. From the iconic sword n board in shining armor to the more modern BigAssSword Cloud-clone wannabe... either way, the paladin will work.

If you're looking to Fight! Fight! Fight! all Night! Night! Night! and have a couple of backup divine spells 'just in case', then any multiclass between Fighter, Monk, Cleric and/or Paladin will work. I mention Monk as an outlier just in case you'd hadn't considered it - but there is heaps of material regarding holy monks doing war on the badguys. Straight monk works, but if you MC to grab a few divine abilities, they can really bring in the flavor.

So, I guess the TL;DR version is; How much casting do you wanna do, and start from there.

[Specter]

I say take 1 level of War Cleric and roll with it. Divine Favor and some bonus attacks already complement a fighter well.

[Mr.J]

To answer your question, I'll give a short description of him:

The man has no name, but those he meets call him Law. The townspeople are confused, he slays the goblins who attack them but does nothing for the wounded. When a man attempts to clean up the carts that were destroyed he points a sword at him, "Thieves will die." The man, frightened, runs away. The figure clad in full plate walks around brandishing his great sword. It glows, if questioned he describes that it is the way he forces Order into this world, and he is its Law. People talk about him, stories say that he plays the Judge and the executioner, with no chance for a jury. His allies claim he is a veteran in battle, but does nothing to assist them. Using his divine magic to empower himself he charges into the fray, relentlessly assaulting ne'er-do-wells. A party member takes a trinket from a jewelry shop and turns around, coming face to face with his glowing sword that leaks radiance. "You are my ally, but nothing stands in the way of Order. I am Law. I embody Truth. You will be warned once." When met with enemies, they find it difficult to lie when met with his gaze. (Maybe he summons a steed to assist him? Haven't decided yet.)

I'm really concerned with a character that doesn't really assist the party, but empowers himself. Sure, I'll heal someone if they might die and the people ask me to, but it's not my main concern. People die, it's the way things go. So far, I've been looking @ Divine Smite, but that costs a spell slot and can only be used 3 - 5 times a day depending on how much I take. Divine Favour would definitely benefit me, and Find Steed or Branding Smite would also interest me. I'm also interested in hitting multiple times per round. Basically, a big guy whose God has ordered him to enact Justice itself. Really he's like someone who embodies Retribution. He comes in with a greatsword that radiates with holy energy, buffs himself, and then attacks relentlessly until all enemies are dead. No range. No questions. All action. That's probably why I'm finding such a problem with something, like dipping 3 levels into cleric gives me so many spells I will never use because it doesn't fit his archetype, etc etc, but the War Cleric gets an extra attack as a bonus action. Whichever gets me the most multihits (fighter), and the one that gives me solid buffs to myself in the most efficient way possible. (failed to mention I'll be the frontliner, we have a monk, a bard, and I think a Warlock)

[Arkhios]

If you don't mind refluffing a bit, what about Eldritch Knight? No need for high intelligence, just pick Abjuration Spells, and maybe dip into War Cleric for a level or few.
You could say that the magic you learn from EK comes from conviction as for a paladin. Magic itself has no real side in the grand scheme of things. Magic is inherently neither Arcane nor Divine, magic is just magic.

With EK 15/War Cleric 5 (should you get that high that is) you'd end up with a total "caster level" of 15:3+5=10, which is exactly the same as a paladin has. Your spell options would be limited to up to 3rd level (in each class), but you'd have spell slots up to 5th level.

You would have Extra Attack (2) from being a fighter 11+, plus you'd have the bonus action attack from War Domain.

As a fighter of 14+ you would get 5 ASI and as a cleric 4+ you would get one more for a total of 6 in the end.

As for the ability scores, maybe these would be decent guidelines:

Str>Wis≥Con>Cha>Dex≥Int

[Mr.J]

I more than likely would've play an EK, no. Probably because it isn't as grandiose as my before-mentioned concept. Yes, he'd be able to use magic, but then he would more be a force in the world rather than God's child sent down, granted only gifts from said God.

[Matrix_Walker]

If your stats allow for it, a Fighter/Paladin Multiclass can be quite the monster.

But you have to decide how much casting you want in your mix...

Fighter 2 for Actions Surge, a fighting style, Con Saves
Paladin 2 gets you another fighting style, divine smite and a casting level.

Double fighting styles (Great Weapon + Defense) is the beast of both worlds for a great sword wielder.

If you go Eldritch Knight from there, you'll get some nice added smite fuel and be on the road the three attacks, or you could go pally for a second attack and the aura, which would be castier and you could go for improved divine smite.

[Solunaris]

If the campaign allows it, a refluffed Hexblade Pact of the Blade Warlock would work wonders here.

Let me explain myself though. Start as a V-Human and take Heavy Armor Proficiency, giving yourself a +2 to Strength and the other bonus into Con or Cha. Doesn't really matter, you want to start with a 16 in Strength and a 14 in both Con and Cha.

Using the Warlock as a base-line, you could pick up Eldritch Blast (which deals the wonderfully neutral Force Damage) and fluff it as Divine blasts instead of unholy bolts. Armor of Agathys makes a wonderful self buff and will go a long ways in keeping yourself on the front lines as you wail away with your Pact Weapon, while your "Curse of Law" would allow you to mark any lawbreaker you intend to take retribution on.

Once you have access to invocations Curse (Law) Bringer is a must as it allows you to summon a Greatsword forged from Law personified to strike down chaos where-ever it lies.

The expanded spell list is nothing to sneeze at either, though your limited spell slots per combat will definitely drag you down; especially if you intend to Smite with them. But you get access to one of the coolest, if not the best, Paladin spells, Destructive Wave.

Really, it's everything you want but the original fluff. If your DM is willing to work with you on that side I think this is the perfect solution to your quandary.

[Mr.J]

I think I've got it. I don't know exactly how good this will be, but for starters I'd like to mention that my party isn't too important to my character concept, so he probably won't be healing others unless the need is dire.

Paladin 5 levels, so I can get the steed spell, have 5 spell slots, and also stick with it to get oath benefits and extra attack. Then probably the next 15 levels in fighter.

[Matrix_Walker]

If you go as far as Paladin 5, I highly recommend 6 for the aura.

[Arkhios]

I think I've got it. I don't know exactly how good this will be, but for starters I'd like to mention that my party isn't too important to my character concept, so he probably won't be healing others unless the need is dire.

Paladin 5 levels, so I can get the steed spell, have 5 spell slots, and also stick with it to get oath benefits and extra attack. Then probably the next 15 levels in fighter.

That should be alright. As a bonus, you wouldn't have to worry about keeping track of hit dice of different sizes. :smalltongue:

[furby076]

Your character concept will irk your party and npcs,
1. Dont try and force yourself on party members. They share a table with you, and some things you will need to hand waive to keep the group happy. Dont threaten or pvp fellow players...your character may end up dead, you will cause group enmity, and you may be kicked from group.

2. Walking into town and acting like judge dredd may get you arrested or killed. Some societies have strict policies on what warrants violence and who can dish it out.

3. If you still decide to be the embodiment of law and orded, then there is no warning for allies. They know who you are. If you bend the law once, you broke it. You will do it again. Order will collapse.

Maybe ease up a bit

[Herobizkit]

Sounds like a Lawful Neutral paladin of Vengeance to me.

[furby076]

Sounds like a Lawful Neutral paladin of Vengeance to me.

Nope. If he gives a freebie to his allies, he is Neutral Neutral. :)

[Sigreid]

Actually, he doesn't sound like a paladin to me at all. No mercy for the innocent. And he's about LAW, not justice, and bull headed and unreasonable about it. I think you're better off with a cleric of a lawful neutral and uncompromising god.

[Mr.J]

Your character concept will irk your party and npcs,
1. Dont try and force yourself on party members. They share a table with you, and some things you will need to hand waive to keep the group happy. Dont threaten or pvp fellow players...your character may end up dead, you will cause group enmity, and you may be kicked from group.

2. Walking into town and acting like judge dredd may get you arrested or killed. Some societies have strict policies on what warrants violence and who can dish it out.

3. If you still decide to be the embodiment of law and orded, then there is no warning for allies. They know who you are. If you bend the law once, you broke it. You will do it again. Order will collapse.

Maybe ease up a bit

Yeah, I can see how that could be a problem.

On the first note, it's played online and we should be okay on that aspect. I'll let them know way ahead of time how I am, but my character has always been stalwart.

On the second note, he's not one to kill a man for taking the apple, like I said, but more one who would cut off a hand for such an act.

Knowing that, I expect the party to fully take all illegal actions behind my back.

I'm combining the Oaths of the Crown and the Oaths of Vengeance into one Oath of Truth or Oath of Justice, which the DM allowed.

Hopefully it won't cause discord in my party...hopefully. I think we all play well enough so that it shouldn't put too much strain on anything.

[furby076]

Just remember, hand waiving for the good of the players is better than sticking to a story or game.

Also, cut a mans hand for apple stealing, and depending on your campaign you may incur the wrath of the law yourself. That society may treat apple stealing as a community service crime...or a call for help (lg community). So, it will be interesting to see the police issue an Wanted sign in your name. Can you turn yourself in AND collect the reward? Lol