Funny bits of canon D&D 3.5 lore [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

thorr-kan

2017-03-29, 08:48 PM

The *real* Mage of Shadowdaele doesn't live in Shadowdale. In fact, he doesn't live in the Dales at all. He's not a Chosen of Mystra. He's not a wizard/fighter/rouge/plot device.

He's a 12th level wizard running a magic school in Huzuz, The City of Delights, capital of Zakhara, the Land of Fate (2ED Arabian Adventures setting).

The School of the Mage of Shadowdale is a small establishment run by the husband of Amsha al-Lanim
(supervisor of the Gate of the Ghost). The fellow is an ajami mage (hmW/aj/12) called El, which is short for his actual name, Elfinster. When he meets prospective students, he introduces himself as “Elfinster, the mage of Shadowdale.” If the PCs confuse him with another wizard with a similar name, he becomes very frustrated and rants for several minutes about “that glory-hound, Elminster” and about all the times the names have caused confusion, and how he had to go as far as he could from Shadowdale to find a place where no one had ever heard of Elminster.

flappeercraft

2017-03-29, 08:48 PM

This gem is on the PHB on Fighter: Characteristics section, first sentence

Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all-around fighting capabilities (hence the name).

Particle_Man

2017-03-29, 08:54 PM

Magic of Incarnum also has the Sapphire Hierarchs who comprise a kooky cult that worships (or at least venerates) an oracular giant blue sphere of incarnum (so a big blue rock). This is the sort of thing that James T. Kirk can talk into self-destruction in about half a minute (including the time taken for his Shatnerian method of speech).

Sapphire Hierarchs oppose chaos, which includes magic that goes against laws of nature . . . like the law of gravity.

Damn those wizards and their levitation spells! They are flaunting the laws of the universe! :smallsmile:

ATHATH

2017-03-29, 11:04 PM

This gem is on the PHB on Fighter: Characteristics section, first sentence
From the Dead Levels online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a):

"MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes."

MesiDoomstalker

2017-03-30, 12:00 AM

From the Dead Levels online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a):

"MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes."

Technically, this is an accurate assessment of the monk. It has abilities at every level, many of them are colorful and unique. To say nothing of their usefulness or intrinsic synergy.

Mordaedil

2017-03-30, 01:09 AM

If you interpret slow fall as flight, I'd be very delighted.

Karnith

2017-03-30, 05:11 AM

The iconic rogue Lidda's last name is Tosscobble, according to Tome of Magic.

The Viscount

2017-03-30, 01:50 PM

Ashardalon and Acererak are both vestiges that originally stem from adventure modules. Ashardalon's was something like Well of Souls, and Acererak was in the original Tomb of Horrors. More probably exist, but I'm not savvy enough of the older material to know which.

Ravenloft campaign setting includes in its timeline that a group of adventurers attempted to take on the Ravenloft adventure module and died in the process.

The demon prince Yeenoghu won the loyalty of the King of Ghouls long ago, so has him at his side. In the 3.5 update, his sidekick was given a proper name, Doresain, and updated to a Demigod. Despite this level of divine power under his command, Yeenoghu is still one of the lesser demon princes. Also, because Doresain did not receive a statblock when he became a demigod, I think that means he uses the one in BoVD of an advanced fiendish ghoul, CR 10. This means he's about tied with Imhotep as the weakest deity (who's expert 20). Also all gravetouched ghouls are created specifically by Doresain's attention.

Venger

2017-03-30, 01:58 PM

Ashardalon and Acererak are both vestiges that originally stem from adventure modules. Ashardalon's was something like Well of Souls, and Acererak was in the original Tomb of Horrors. More probably exist, but I'm not savvy enough of the older material to know which.

Ravenloft campaign setting includes in its timeline that a group of adventurers attempted to take on the Ravenloft adventure module and died in the process.

The demon prince Yeenoghu won the loyalty of the King of Ghouls long ago, so has him at his side. In the 3.5 update, his sidekick was given a proper name, Doresain, and updated to a Demigod. Despite this level of divine power under his command, Yeenoghu is still one of the lesser demon princes. Also, because Doresain did not receive a statblock when he became a demigod, I think that means he uses the one in BoVD of an advanced fiendish ghoul, CR 10. This means he's about tied with Imhotep as the weakest deity (who's expert 20).

Ashardalon's original appearance was in the "Bastion of Broken Souls" module, so you were close enough.

I want to say there was one deity that was presented in cityscape or one of the urban books who was presented at 4 different crs, 1, 5, 10, and 20. he was called something like "king of vagabonds" or "the pauper king" so as much as imhotep sucks, this guy is unique as far as I know for being the only cr 1 god.

does anyone know where this is? it might've been a web enhancement.

GilesTheCleric

2017-03-30, 02:10 PM

From PGtF 33:

The region system in this book limits each character to one and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level... Allowing a character to choose more than one may unbalance the system.

Yes, because getting both eg. 5 fire resist and +10' to base land speed at the cost of both your feats as a Human is overpowered.

The Viscount

2017-03-30, 03:41 PM

Grod_The_Giant

2017-03-30, 03:51 PM

This thing exists:
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20%20senmurv%20gay%20pride.jpg
They serve as mounts for elves, because of course they do.

frogglesmash

2017-03-30, 03:55 PM

This thing exists:
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20%20senmurv%20gay%20pride.jpg
They serve as mounts for elves, because of course they do.

And it's in Fiend Folio of all places.

Pronounceable

2017-03-30, 03:59 PM

Merrshaulk, also known as Sseth, is the single deity that dominates Yuan-ti worship. However, at least in the Realms, he was usurped and secretly replaced by Set, the Mulhorandi deity, who continues to grant spells in his place.
Actually Sseth is the first usurper, not Merrshaulk. Then he got usurped himself because he did exactly what Merrshaulk had been doing (sleep).

The demon prince Yeenoghu won the loyalty of the King of Ghouls long ago,
aka beat the poo out of him to turn from Orcus. Also it's total bull that Yeenoghu is considered to be a lesser demon prince, not even Demogorgon has beaten up two gods and taken their ****.

Also also, Yeenoghu beat up two gods and took their ****.

e: In other news, the vestige Tenebrous is the remains of minor death god Tenebrous, who was the vengeful ghost of murdered demon prince Orcus, who managed to survive (so to speak) when Orcus managed to resurrect himself. So it's the ghost of a ghost of a demon (that's now alive).Orcus ain't the demon prince of undeath, he's the demon prince of staying alive, staying alive (double)

nyjastul69

2017-03-30, 04:13 PM

Ashardalon and Acererak are both vestiges that originally stem from adventure modules. Ashardalon's was something like Well of Souls, ...

Just as a clarification, Bastion of Broken Souls is the adventure you are thinking of. I think this installment of the Sunless Citadel AP had the most info on Ash. He was first introduced in Sunless Citadel, the first in that AP FWIW.

Bronk

2017-03-30, 08:43 PM

I want to say there was one deity that was presented in cityscape or one of the urban books who was presented at 4 different crs, 1, 5, 10, and 20. he was called something like "king of vagabonds" or "the pauper king" so as much as imhotep sucks, this guy is unique as far as I know for being the only cr 1 god.

does anyone know where this is? it might've been a web enhancement.

You're looking for Erbin, the weakest god! He's in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement here:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020406a

Nibbens

2017-03-30, 09:03 PM

In second edition crows had a 10% chance with every attack to cause the loss of your characters eye. This was "Because of their intelligence" even though they had an int of 1.

Venger

2017-03-30, 10:24 PM

You're looking for Erbin, the weakest god! He's in the Deities and Demigods web enhancement here:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020406a

Bless you. Just what I was talking about. How did they go with "beggar god" when they could've called him the hoboverlord?

In second edition crows had a 10% chance with every attack to cause the loss of your characters eye. This was "Because of their intelligence" even though they had an int of 1.

That's hysterical. Were-murder of crows looks better all the time.

Seto

2017-03-30, 10:36 PM

Bless you. Just what I was talking about. How did they go with "beggar god" when they could've called him the hoboverlord?

I chuckled.

danielxcutter

2017-03-31, 12:06 AM

I chuckled.

Not just you, that's for sure. :smallwink:

Jormengand

2017-03-31, 05:28 AM

Bless you. Just what I was talking about. How did they go with "beggar god" when they could've called him the hoboverlord?

You'll be glad to know, if you didn't know already, that the popular browser-based flash game Kingdom of Loathing went there (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Hodgman,_The_Hoboverlord).

danielxcutter

2017-03-31, 05:50 AM

You'll be glad to know, if you didn't know already, that the popular browser-based flash game Kingdom of Loathing went there (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Hodgman,_The_Hoboverlord).

What... The more I hear of that game, the sillier it is.

Vizzerdrix

2017-03-31, 06:20 AM

What... The more I hear of that game, the sillier it is.

The game is 100% silly, and 200% amazing!

ben-zayb

2017-04-01, 11:31 PM

Not sure if this counts, but there's that sorcerer and wizard banter all over Complete Mage(?) about who is superior.

The game is 100% silly, and 200% amazing!How can a game where one can play as a Gelatinous Cube that absorbs items instead of wearing/activating them, ever be silly?

Zombimode

2017-04-02, 02:16 AM

Bayar

2017-04-02, 06:27 AM

The illustrations in Dungeonscape show a party of adventurers preparing to brave a new dungeon, and as the book goes on, they get picked off one by one until Lidda is the last one to escape. Then, there's Ember who seems to adventure alone, probably because no one wanted a monk in the party. She gets hit by a psionic trap.

Jormengand

2017-04-02, 06:31 AM

Not sure if this counts, but there's that sorcerer and wizard banter all over Complete Mage(?) about who is superior.
I'm getting war flashbacks already.

How can a game where one can play as a Gelatinous Cube that absorbs items instead of wearing/activating them, ever be silly?

Not as fun as playing as the immortal pen-penultimate boss and going on a quest to beat up that jerk adventurer and recover the powerful artifact which...

...uh...

...y'know, I'm not even sure what that thing does.

Tuvarkz

2017-04-02, 12:32 PM

All hail Pelor, the Burning Hate! (http://i.imgur.com/DGFSDVG.png)

Svata

2017-04-02, 04:33 PM

Not as fun as playing as the immortal pen-penultimate boss and going on a quest to beat up that jerk adventurer and recover the powerful artifact which...

...uh...

...y'know, I'm not even sure what that thing does.

Ed, is that you?

AslanCross

2017-04-03, 12:59 AM

This thing exists:
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20%20senmurv%20gay%20pride.jpg
They serve as mounts for elves, because of course they do.

This is actually a monster from Persian mythology. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simurgh)

Most traditional depictions of it look more like a giant peacock or phoenix, but in many modern depictions it has a lupine head.

Anyway, there's that mutant t-rex from Xen'Drik in Eberron that has a second mouth on its chest.

Venger

2017-04-03, 01:08 AM

This is actually a monster from Persian mythology. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simurgh)

Most traditional depictions of it look more like a giant peacock or phoenix, but in many modern depictions it has a lupine head.

Anyway, there's that mutant t-rex from Xen'Drik in Eberron that has a second mouth on its chest.

isn't the klurichir, since he's from fiend folio. I couldn't find it in secrets of xen'drik. any idea which book it's in? I hope there's a picture.

why are there at least 2 monsters with mouths in their chests?

Thurbane

2017-04-03, 01:19 AM

isn't the klurichir, since he's from fiend folio. I couldn't find it in secrets of xen'drik. any idea which book it's in? I hope there's a picture.

why are there at least 2 monsters with mouths in their chests?

Also the Tomb Tapper (may not be chest exactly, depending on who's drawing it):

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG83a.jpg

Klurichir

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50117.jpg

nyjastul69

2017-04-03, 01:24 AM

AslanCross

2017-04-03, 02:13 AM

isn't the klurichir, since he's from fiend folio. I couldn't find it in secrets of xen'drik. any idea which book it's in? I hope there's a picture.

why are there at least 2 monsters with mouths in their chests?

Three, apparently. (Found it: It's from City of Stormreach)
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/6/60/112279.jpg

Keltest

2017-04-03, 08:04 AM

Three, apparently. (Found it: It's from City of Stormreach)
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/6/60/112279.jpg

That's not just a mouth... that's a freaking sarlacc!

ShurikVch

2017-04-03, 09:08 AM

Also also, Yeenoghu beat up two gods and took their ****.About it - facts are not clear

About the King of Ghouls: it's unknown when, exactly, he got a divinity, but he definitely hadn't it during the 2e Kingdom of the Ghouls adventure; Yeenoghu was a deity in 2e, and there is no shame in losing to a deity (especially in 2e)

About Gorellik: the only proof we have about the whole "murdered by Yeenoghu" is an article in a magazine during the "4e", except "4e" lore doesn't include Gorellik - not because he was killed, but because he never existed at all! But, even if we accepting the assumptions "Gorellik existed, created gnolls, and was killed by Yeenoghu", it's still unclear how and when it's happened: if we go by 2e rules, then:
All gods are immortal. The only way for a god to die is to be destroyed by a god of higher statue in magical or physical combat.Apparently, Yeenoghu's "statue" was higher :smallamused:
If we go by the 3e rules, then some "gods" there may be rather weak - just look at lower iterations of Erbin, the beggar god!

Thurbane

2017-04-03, 08:07 PM

If we're nominating goofy-looking monsters, I'd like to add tall Mouther and Roving Mauler:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c2/Tall_mouther_2.jpg

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96075.jpg

Keltest

2017-04-03, 08:26 PM

I like the 1e Modron art for goofy looking monsters myself. My first ever D&D group made it our mission to visit the Plane of Nirvana specifically just to meet these guys.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-04-03, 08:35 PM

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96075.jpg

Not sure if this is funnier if I imagine the legs turning independent of the head or it all just rolling around together. Either way it talks like Bootleg Mufasa.

I seem to recall a race in BoVD that were the first attempt at humans, except they lacked empathy and fear and were killed by the gods for not worshiping them. Then a demon lord revived them and they now only work together because they hate gods so much.

Thurbane

2017-04-03, 10:47 PM

I like the 1e Modron art for goofy looking monsters myself. My first ever D&D group made it our mission to visit the Plane of Nirvana specifically just to meet these guys.

Oddly enough I much prefer the 1e Modron art to later versions. From memory the illustrations in the 1e MM2 were by one of my preferred artists at the time - his name escapes me...

Jim Holloway!

digiman619

2017-04-03, 11:55 PM

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToMagic_Gallery/96075.jpg

I'm pretty sure that's actually a heraldic charge, but my google-fu has failed me. I know bicorporate lions share a head, and I know the Isle of Man's device has a trio of legs like that, but if there's a term for the combination of the two, I don't know it.

Venger

2017-04-04, 12:08 AM

Not sure if this is funnier if I imagine the legs turning independent of the head or it all just rolling around together. Either way it talks like Bootleg Mufasa.

I seem to recall a race in BoVD that were the first attempt at humans, except they lacked empathy and fear and were killed by the gods for not worshiping them. Then a demon lord revived them and they now only work together because they hate gods so much.

No way is not funny.

You are thinking of the vashar. They are so cartoonishly evil, they won't even do a plan like kidnapping one of the PCs to ransom him back to the group later, because it is unfathomable to them that people would care about one another. Really.

I'm pretty sure that's actually a heraldic charge, but my google-fu has failed me. I know bicorporate lions share a head, and I know the Isle of Man's device has a trio of legs like that, but if there's a term for the combination of the two, I don't know it.

I actually know this one.

The roving mauler's art is based on the depiction of buer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buer_(demon)) an ancient alchemical demon who teaches you how to heal and stuff. He was later reprinted in ars goetica by Aleister Crowley along with many of the other entities wotc later cribbed the names and in some occasions the gross physical descriptions and signs for the vestiges from for binder.

Thurbane

2017-04-04, 04:45 PM

Reading through Ghostwalk, I came across this last night (description for the Angel wings inn):

"Every fixture and piece of furniture in the building is handcrafted..."

...as opposed to what? In the pseudo-medieval setting of most D&D games, pretty much everything is going to be "hand crafted". Apart from some magically manufactured items, but those would be fairly rare, and certainly not a common sight at your average inn. It was like they thought fixtures in most D&D taverns came out of a factory. :smalltongue:

Venger

2017-04-04, 05:14 PM

remetagross

2017-04-04, 06:00 PM

why are there at least 2 monsters with mouths in their chests?

Make it four with Dalmosh of the Infinite Maw (MM V), who grows a new mouth on his body whenever he loses 20 hit points or more in a single blow!

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/D_0b3544_5462006.jpg

Venger

2017-04-04, 07:32 PM

dalmosh is perfect for this game. giant evil pop n fresh who's summoned by leaving a picnic for him and has a whole campaign setting in his tummy.

danielxcutter

2017-04-04, 07:37 PM

I started this thread and I'm not sure how there's so much of this stuff.

Thurbane

2017-04-04, 08:02 PM

fabricate traps.

Well yeah, that's true of course; still, I get the feeling that the Ghostwalk setting isn't exactly the Tippyverse.

Jeff the Green

2017-04-04, 09:39 PM

Here's one about Nobanion, a minor god in the Forgotten Realms:

Ancient texts also refer to him as the Lion King or Aslan. Some legends claim Nobanion entered the Realms through one of the many magical pools in the Weathercote Woods, each of which acts as a gate to another world.
Yes, Aslan exists in Faerun and you can get there from Narnia (or the version of Earth in the Chronicles) via the Wood Between the Worlds.

danielxcutter

2017-04-04, 09:56 PM

Here's one about Nobanion, a minor god in the Forgotten Realms:

Yes, Aslan exists in Faerun and you can get there from Narnia (or the version of Earth in the Chronicles) via the Wood Between the Worlds.

What... seriously? The guy who wrote that must have been a serious Narnia fan.

Dagroth

2017-04-04, 11:42 PM

Well, there's the way back to Earth after getting dumped in Faerun in the other thread!

Arbane

2017-04-05, 12:16 AM

I started this thread and I'm not sure how there's so much of this stuff.

D&D has been running since the early 70s and has accumulated a LOT of crazy concepts over the years.

danielxcutter

2017-04-05, 12:26 AM

D&D has been running since the early 70s and has accumulated a LOT of crazy concepts over the years.

I guess you don't keep a franchise for 40 years without slipping things like these once in a while. :smalltongue:

Jormengand

2017-04-05, 08:45 AM

Dunsparce

2017-04-05, 09:03 AM

Everything related to Giant Space Hamsters, especially Woolly Rupert, the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. Saying his name will make any gnome cower in fear, doesn't help that he doesn't have any stats like the Lady of Pain, just a vague description of his abilities(Like having arcane casting).

Spelljammer had some 3.0/3.5 conversions both via Dragon Magazine/Dungeon Magazine and a 3rd party WotC-approved website, so I consider this canon even in those editions

remetagross

2017-04-05, 09:52 AM

One of the books points out that your mount may well have a higher INT than you. It tells the tale of a paladin who, though loyal and brave, is actually less intelligent than her horse. It notes: "How embarrassing. What will all the other warhorses think?" I can't remember which book, though.

I'm pretty sure that's in the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I remember bursting out laughing when I stumbled upon it :smallbiggrin:

Venger

2017-04-05, 10:15 AM

I'm pretty sure that's in the Arms & Equipment Guide, and I remember bursting out laughing when I stumbled upon it :smallbiggrin:

It's the sidebar on page 82.

ShurikVch

2017-04-05, 10:43 AM

One of the books points out that your mount may well have a higher INT than you. It tells the tale of a paladin who, though loyal and brave, is actually less intelligent than her horse. It notes: "How embarrassing. What will all the other warhorses think?" I can't remember which book, though.The most glaring example of the trope: Dudley Do-Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Do-Right) - according to Dragon #48, he's 18th-level Paladin with Permanent Mind Blank and 18/8/19/4/4/21 abilities (the Horse (http://rockyandbullwinkle.wikia.com/wiki/Horse) have Int 15)

ATHATH

2017-04-05, 10:46 AM

The most glaring example of the trope: Dudley Do-Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Do-Right) - according to Dragon #48, he's 18th-level Paladin with Permanent Mind Blank and 18/8/19/4/4/21 abilities (the Horse (http://rockyandbullwinkle.wikia.com/wiki/Horse) have Int 15)
I think that's for 1st or 2nd edition, though, considering the low issue number.

Why was he made an 18th level character, though? What abilities does he have that are represented by an 18th level Paladin?

Inevitability

2017-04-05, 10:47 AM

Make it four with Dalmosh of the Infinite Maw (MM V), who grows a new mouth on his body whenever he loses 20 hit points or more in a single blow!

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/D_0b3544_5462006.jpg

Don't forget a low-level shaper psion can conjure up some wine and summon this thing basically every day.

ShurikVch

2017-04-05, 11:05 AM

I think that's for 1st or 2nd edition, though, considering the low issue number.1e (April 1981)
Why was he made an 18th level character, though? What abilities does he have that are represented by an 18th level Paladin?According to the article:
Because of his perfect faith in law and good, Dudley has two god-given abilities - awe power and luck. His awe power causes all persons of 3 HD or under to run in fear (if evil) or trust him implicitly (if good) upon sighting him. Mere mention of his name will cause evildoers to tremble with fear. His luck is such that he will have an 80% chance of bringing in his man, even through the wildest of coincidences (convincing the evildoer or the error of his ways or unwittingly getting him to tunnel into the jail, for example).

Venger

2017-04-05, 11:11 AM

Don't forget a low-level shaper psion can conjure up some wine and summon this thing basically every day.

Dalmosh requires a 10kgp pic-a-nic basket to show up to your brunch. I thought fine wine was just 150gp/bottle. Is there more expensive stuff listed somewhere?

I guess you could just make him a giant gross salad of pure saffron.

Inevitability

2017-04-05, 11:36 AM

Dalmosh requires a 10kgp pic-a-nic basket to show up to your brunch. I thought fine wine was just 150gp/bottle. Is there more expensive stuff listed somewhere?

I guess you could just make him a giant gross salad of pure saffron.

A bottle of wine weighs 1.5 lb and costs 10 GP. Subtracting the price of a glass bottle, that's 8 GP for 1.5 lb of wine.

Assuming wine has a density similar to water, a ML 3 Psionic Minor Creation's 3 cubic feet get you 187.2 pounds of it. That's nearly 1500 GP worth. In other words, seven manifestations (easily doable as a psion 3) produce the required amount of wine. This takes only seven minutes: more than enough with wine that sticks around for hours.

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me like a cubic foot of saffron would weigh only 8.87 pounds (going by this (http://www.aqua-calc.com/page/density-table/substance/spices-coma-and-blank-saffron) density) and therefore be worth only 133 GP, meaning a ML 3 psion would need over 25 manifestations to summon up ol' Dally.

Venger

2017-04-05, 12:06 PM

A bottle of wine weighs 1.5 lb and costs 10 GP. Subtracting the price of a glass bottle, that's 8 GP for 1.5 lb of wine.

Assuming wine has a density similar to water, a ML 3 Psionic Minor Creation's 3 cubic feet get you 187.2 pounds of it. That's nearly 1500 GP worth. In other words, seven manifestations (easily doable as a psion 3) produce the required amount of wine. This takes only seven minutes: more than enough with wine that sticks around for hours.

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me like a cubic foot of saffron would weigh only 8.87 pounds (going by this (http://www.aqua-calc.com/page/density-table/substance/spices-coma-and-blank-saffron) density) and therefore be worth only 133 GP, meaning a ML 3 psion would need over 25 manifestations to summon up ol' Dally.

That certainly adds up. Let's make Dalmosh some sangria.

I don't know if saffron has a listed gp cost in the game, I just mentioned it since at least in real life it's more valuable by volume than normal wine is, so you probably wouldn't have to manifest it as many times.

What I want to know is, since this ritual automatically works and summons Dalmosh from wherever he is, does he just eat everyone's snacks really quickly like santa claus, or if I summon him in Breland at noon, and you summon him in Cyre at noon, do we each get a Dalmosh?

Zombulian

2017-04-05, 12:09 PM

Also the Tomb Tapper (may not be chest exactly, depending on who's drawing it):

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG83a.jpg

Klurichir

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50117.jpg

Three, apparently. (Found it: It's from City of Stormreach)
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/6/60/112279.jpg

Great. Now I want poptarts.
http://i.imgur.com/SuDp4RL.jpg

Inevitability

2017-04-05, 12:56 PM

That certainly adds up. Let's make Dalmosh some sangria.

I don't know if saffron has a listed gp cost in the game, I just mentioned it since at least in real life it's more valuable by volume than normal wine is, so you probably wouldn't have to manifest it as many times.

What I want to know is, since this ritual automatically works and summons Dalmosh from wherever he is, does he just eat everyone's snacks really quickly like santa claus, or if I summon him in Breland at noon, and you summon him in Cyre at noon, do we each get a Dalmosh?

Saffron does actually have a listed cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm) of 15 GP/pound.

Dalmosh seems to be an unique being, so I'm reasonably sure it wouldn't appear in two places at once.

Of course, that does make it an expensive-but-easy way of communication. Summon Dalmosh, mark it somehow, have whoever you want to receive the message summon it. Maybe let a disposable third party perform a final summon afterwards to make sure the fiend ends up somewhere it can rampage safely.

Venger

2017-04-05, 01:00 PM

Saffron does actually have a listed cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm) of 15 GP/pound.

Dalmosh seems to be an unique being, so I'm reasonably sure it wouldn't appear in two places at once.

Of course, that does make it an expensive-but-easy way of communication. Summon Dalmosh, mark it somehow, have whoever you want to receive the message summon it. Maybe let a disposable third party perform a final summon afterwards to make sure the fiend ends up somewhere it can rampage safely.

So it does. Man prices for stuff in this game are messed up.

While that's one way of looking at it, the ritual to summon him is presumably magical, since it can summon him anyplace no matter where he is, and there's no proviso saying it fails if he's tied up or something. Like with summons, it may be possible to have more than one Dalmosh, but like you said, even if there's but one Dalmosh, there are still a lot of possibilities.

Dalmosh is a reliable means of smuggling before you get access to teleportation circles.

Any campaign that introduces Dalmosh automatically becomes more interesting.

remetagross

2017-04-05, 01:02 PM

And that day, the company Dalmoshenger was created ! :D

Inevitability

2017-04-05, 01:17 PM

You know, Dalmosh only has 5 dexterity and a touch AC of 3. A Shivering Touch has a 93% chance of incapacitating him for several hours: even a Lesser one still works 31.7% of the time. A source of ability drain is even better, as Dalmosh can't restore it.

Once incapacitated that way, he can be summoned safely anywhere. One could just load him with trade goods and begin summoning. There's no weight limit on what Dalmosh can take with him, so I assume you could overencumber him and it'll still all be taken along.

...Now I want to play a campaign where Dalmosh has become a giant transportation vessel, carrying goods and people alike between psion-manned stations.

Âmesang

2017-04-05, 01:38 PM

According to the SPELLJAMMER® supplement, "Realmspace," Elminster of Shadowdale has his own miniature space station orbiting the planet, Coliar. Besides being filled with a number of rare and powerful personal belongings Elminster's Hideout also contains portals to other lands and areas… including Ed Greenwood's house on Earth.

This is the way in which Elminster has pestered him for the last 15 years, and to this day, continues to hassle the poor man with his incredibly long stories and demands for "more German beer" and "can I use that hot water spout doohickey, again?"
…also makes for a good meeting place between himself, Mordenkainen of the Circle of Eight, and Dalamar the Dark.

One of the books points out that your mount may well have a higher INT than you. It tells the tale of a paladin who, though loyal and brave, is actually less intelligent than her horse. It notes: "How embarrassing. What will all the other warhorses think?" I can't remember which book, though.
So female Dudley Do-Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_Do-Right)? :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Seems I've been ninja'd. :smalltongue: That's what I get for leaving the window open for [U]hours[/U before finally replying.

Venger

2017-04-05, 01:46 PM

And that day, the company Dalmoshenger was created ! :D
lol

You know, Dalmosh only has 5 dexterity and a touch AC of 3. A Shivering Touch has a 93% chance of incapacitating him for several hours: even a Lesser one still works 31.7% of the time. A source of ability drain is even better, as Dalmosh can't restore it.

Once incapacitated that way, he can be summoned safely anywhere. One could just load him with trade goods and begin summoning. There's no weight limit on what Dalmosh can take with him, so I assume you could overencumber him and it'll still all be taken along.

...Now I want to play a campaign where Dalmosh has become a giant transportation vessel, carrying goods and people alike between psion-manned stations.

I like where your head's at, but I must draw your attention to his intelligence which is a whopping 4. a ray of stupidity will put him to sleep in one hit 50% of the time, and even if it takes 2 applications of it, it's one level cheaper than shivering touch and can be done at a range without metamagic, so you have a significantly lower risk of Dalmosh eating you while you're poking his foot.

Plus it renders him unconscious instead of merely paralyzed, which is more humane and will make it easier for you to put stuff in his mouths.

Encumbrance aside, you can make use of his tummy dimension if you run out of room. If he's not going to try to chew you up and digest you, hopping in there isn't as big of a deal.

I also want to play this game. This is what the rakshasas who rule Dalmosh's tummy are actually getting up to in the outside world. Running a successful trade and transport industry.

The Viscount

2017-04-05, 05:50 PM

Githyanki of above level 16 are exceptionally rare because their lich queen ruler typically kills any that rise to this level.

We all know that githyanki fighter/wizards called gishes are the origin of the term, but did you know that multiclass Githzerai are called zerths?

Malimar

2017-04-05, 06:19 PM

Everything related to Giant Space Hamsters, especially Woolly Rupert, the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. Saying his name will make any gnome cower in fear, doesn't help that he doesn't have any stats like the Lady of Pain, just a vague description of his abilities(Like having arcane casting).

Wooly Rupert the Tyrannohamstersaurus of Ill Omen.

(My Spelljammer game is going to face him on Sunday. Not knowing anything about him but his name, I statted him up as a Kaiju Giant Hamster. They're not gonna be able to dent him as it is, arcane casting would just be overkill.)

Thurbane

2017-04-05, 08:00 PM

Githyanki of above level 16 are exceptionally rare because their lich queen ruler typically kills any that rise to this level.

This has always fascinated me. I guess it means that when they get towards level 16, Githyanki either start crafting magic items like crazy; make out with succubi; multiclass enough to that they never earn XP; retire to a tulip farm on the Astral and try to avoid any activities that are likely to bring XP; or just go full kamikaze, sitting on kegs of flash powder and alchemists fire covered in explosive runes awaiting their royal visit.

Venger

2017-04-05, 08:32 PM

This has always fascinated me. I guess it means that when they get towards level 16, Githyanki either start crafting magic items like crazy; make out with succubi; multiclass enouigh to that they never earn XP; retire to a tulip farm on the Astral and try to avoid any activities that are likely to being XP; or just go full kamikaze, sitting on kegs of flash powder and alchemists fire covered in explosive runes awaiting their royal visit.

well this is my next campaign

Vizzerdrix

2017-04-05, 08:35 PM

well this is my next campaign

A game where you have to find a way to NOT level up while politely declining dinner invitations with your lich queen? I love it!

Venger

2017-04-05, 08:55 PM

A game where you have to find a way to NOT level up while politely declining dinner invitations with your lich queen? I love it!

it'd be like sonic 2xl, where you try to get enough xp to move forward and stay on point, but not too much, or you are summarily executed.

Particle_Man

2017-04-05, 11:13 PM

One of the books points out that your mount may well have a higher INT than you. It tells the tale of a paladin who, though loyal and brave, is actually less intelligent than her horse. It notes: "How embarrassing. What will all the other warhorses think?" I can't remember which book, though.

Also, of course, intelligent magical swords are often smarter than the fighters that wield them. There was a dragonmirth cartoon to that effect (someone consoling a fighter with such a sword).

danielxcutter

2017-04-06, 12:58 AM

Also, of course, intelligent magical swords are often smarter than the fighters that wield them. There was a dragonmirth cartoon to that effect (someone consoling a fighter with such a sword).

Funny, one of the webcomics I read features an ego sword, which only has the power to talk to other people(and expose a person's mind to extreme profanity if they're not the owner), but has lots of experience and gives the protagonist advice now and then. It's a Korean webcomic called Heromaker, unrelated to D&D, but related to the topic of intelligent magic swords.

Jeff the Green

2017-04-06, 01:19 PM

What... seriously? The guy who wrote that must have been a serious Narnia fan.

Who isn't? I have serious problems with some of the ideology contained therein (and it's best if I don't further elaborate), but I still have a big soft spot for them, more than Tolkien.

Thurbane

2017-04-06, 03:49 PM

On the food related theme, I've been reading through Ghostwalk over the last couple of days.

There's a NPC (Medusa) called...Saag Paneer. I kid you not.

http://i63.tinypic.com/10wib9z.jpg

Now, I love Indian food (there is an awesome little place around the corner from me; they do an amazing gobi entree), so this instantly made me chuckle. I wonder if the writers were working back late one night to meet a deadline, were eying off the Indian take-out menu, and had run out of ideas for naming the characters in the book?

danielxcutter

2017-04-06, 04:48 PM

The Viscount

2017-04-06, 04:55 PM

Ghost-faced Killer is a mediocre prestige class that is for whatever reason, named after a member of Wu-Tang Clan. Every year that passes the reference becomes more dated, and I laugh a little harder.

Juiblex is also known as the Faceless Lord, but due to poor copy editing he is sometimes called Jubilex or, on at least one occasion, Jubiblex.

Medusae that take exotic weapon proficiency can use a unique and ridiculous weapon, the snake chain. It's a chain tied to the snakes that is a reach weapon, and can trip. Do the snakes pull or does a medusa just yank its head back? Either way, it's hilarious.

Gildedragon

2017-04-06, 05:01 PM

This has always fascinated me. I guess it means that when they get towards level 16, Githyanki either start crafting magic items like crazy; make out with succubi; multiclass enough to that they never earn XP; retire to a tulip farm on the Astral and try to avoid any activities that are likely to bring XP; or just go full kamikaze, sitting on kegs of flash powder and alchemists fire covered in explosive runes awaiting their royal visit.

Hmmm gris prolly ought mean one ought get githcraft +1 weapons and armor at below-cost.

"How much to help you craft items? I'll cover the XP costs" All Lvl 15 Githyanki

Inevitability

2017-04-07, 12:39 AM

They named a medusa after a fudging curry?!

Can I sig this?

danielxcutter

2017-04-07, 12:59 AM

Can I sig this?

Of course you can. It would be a great honor.

Pex

2017-04-07, 01:01 AM

In second edition crows had a 10% chance with every attack to cause the loss of your characters eye. This was "Because of their intelligence" even though they had an int of 1.

In 2E dolphins had Lawful Good alignment and Intelligence 11, i. e. smarter than the average human.

In 3E, the Identify spell requires, along with the pearl, an owl feather dipped in a glass of wine which must then be drunk. In Book Of Exalted Deeds, the Celestial Mystic prestige class has the prerequisite Exalted feat Vow of Abstinence, meaning they may not drink alcoholic beverages. Therefore, the holy wizards of Celestial Mystics may never cast the Identify spell.

ATHATH

2017-04-07, 01:05 AM

Juiblex is also known as the Faceless Lord, but due to poor copy editing he is sometimes called Jubilex or, on at least one occasion, Jubiblex.
Wait, his name ISN'T Jubilex? And Juiblex is male?

It kind of reminds me of that slime deity from... shoot, I can't remember what game (probably Nethack or ADOM). Anyway, his (her?) name would change on a run-by-run basis (or was it every time that it was mentioned?), because the forms of slimes eternally shift.

danielxcutter

2017-04-07, 01:06 AM

Wait, his name ISN'T Jubilex? And Juiblex is male?

It kind of reminds me of that slime deity from... shoot, I can't remember what game (probably Nethack or ADOM). Anyway, his (her?) name would change on a run-by-run basis (or was it every time that it was mentioned?), because the forms of slimes eternally shift.

Possibly that's where the reference comes from.

Venger

2017-04-07, 01:26 AM

In 2E dolphins had Lawful Good alignment and Intelligence 11, i. e. smarter than the average human.

In 3E, the Identify spell requires, along with the pearl, an owl feather dipped in a glass of wine which must then be drunk. In Book Of Exalted Deeds, the Celestial Mystic prestige class has the prerequisite Exalted feat Vow of Abstinence, meaning they may not drink alcoholic beverages. Therefore, the holy wizards of Celestial Mystics may never cast the Identify spell.

talk to your gm, you might be able to cast purify food and water to remove the alcohol (since it's technically a poison) or you could just use nonalcoholic wine.

Wait, his name ISN'T Jubilex? And Juiblex is male?

It kind of reminds me of that slime deity from... shoot, I can't remember what game (probably Nethack or ADOM). Anyway, his (her?) name would change on a run-by-run basis (or was it every time that it was mentioned?), because the forms of slimes eternally shift.

his name is juiblex. he is consistently referred to with male pronouns in canon. are you thinking of zuggtmoy, juiblex's archenemy? she's consistently described with female pronouns, but has been known to operate under false identities in some of the modules she appears in.

Thurbane

2017-04-07, 01:35 AM

his name is juiblex. he is consistently referred to with male pronouns in canon. are you thinking of zuggtmoy, juiblex's archenemy? she's consistently described with female pronouns, but has been known to operate under false identities in some of the modules she appears in.

Depending on the edition, good old Zuggy is either queen of the stumpy mushroom people; or a disturbingly attractive lady-goth aberration. :smalltongue:

Man I love the ToEE CRPG.

http://i63.tinypic.com/30xhkdh.jpghttp://i65.tinypic.com/dcrhgh.jpg

Venger

2017-04-07, 01:39 AM

zug is duplicitous and can change her shape to impersonate stuff, so she can definitely look like both et's stunt double and a woman who shops at spencer's. after all, she is just a collection of fungi that happen to look like a humanoid.

Particle_Man

2017-04-07, 02:01 AM

In 2E dolphins had Lawful Good alignment and Intelligence 11, i. e. smarter than the average human.

In 3E, the Identify spell requires, along with the pearl, an owl feather dipped in a glass of wine which must then be drunk. In Book Of Exalted Deeds, the Celestial Mystic prestige class has the prerequisite Exalted feat Vow of Abstinence, meaning they may not drink alcoholic beverages. Therefore, the holy wizards of Celestial Mystics may never cast the Identify spell.

If we are allowed to go to earlier editions can I mention the 1e giant beavers? Because they are awesome.

Also, there are two entire adventure modules in AD&D 1st ed based on the settings of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass.

http://www.mcgillsociety.org/dnd/dnd-misc/Classic-DnD/EX1-2-f/EX1-2-intro.html

Oh, technically the clerics with vow of poverty have it worse than the above holy wizards of celestial mystics. Clerics with vow of poverty can't use holy symbols! That cuts out a lot of their spells and their ability to turn undead.

thoroughlyS

2017-04-07, 03:02 AM

In 3E, the Identify spell requires, along with the pearl, an owl feather dipped in a glass of wine which must then be drunk. In Book Of Exalted Deeds, the Celestial Mystic prestige class has the prerequisite Exalted feat Vow of Abstinence, meaning they may not drink alcoholic beverages. Therefore, the holy wizards of Celestial Mystics may never cast the Identify spell.
Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) would be a suitable workaround, seeing as it works per component, given that Common Wine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#foodDrinkAndLodging) costs less than 1 gp.

Oh, technically the clerics with vow of poverty have it worse than the above holy wizards of celestial mystics. Clerics with vow of poverty can't use holy symbols! That cuts out a lot of their spells and their ability to turn undead.
This is slightly trickier, but this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323931-Can-a-Vow-of-Poverty-Cleric-cast-Summon-Holy-Symbol) has some ideas.

Svata

2017-04-07, 03:55 AM

Both Juiblex and Jubilex exist. Juiblex in D&D, Jubilex in PF. Ahhh, the wonderful confusion...

Vizzerdrix

2017-04-07, 06:46 AM

In 2E dolphins had Lawful Good alignment and Intelligence 11, i. e. smarter than the average human.

Not when I DM. Then I play them closer to their true alignment (CE). Same with were bears. No way in heck is anything bear related Good.

Celestia

2017-04-07, 07:48 AM

Not when I DM. Then I play them closer to their true alignment (CE). Same with were bears. No way in heck is anything bear related Good.
I heard a story where an aquarium had to separate the dolphins into their own tank because they developed a game where they would catch the manta rays in their beaks, swim to the surface, and then skip the rays across the water.

Necroticplague

2017-04-07, 08:21 AM

Vizzerdrix

2017-04-07, 10:45 AM

I heard a story where an aquarium had to separate the dolphins into their own tank because they developed a game where they would catch the manta rays in their beaks, swim to the surface, and then skip the rays across the water.

I'm not surprised by that at all. They do some very, very horrable things. Both in captivity and in the wild. Personaly I would feel safer around sharks.

eclipsic

2017-04-07, 11:05 AM

Ghost-faced Killer is a mediocre prestige class that is for whatever reason, named after a member of Wu-Tang Clan. Every year that passes the reference becomes more dated, and I laugh a little harder.

FWIW, Ghost-faced Killah is a member of Wu-Tang Clan that got his name from a character named Ghost Face Killer in a Chinese kung-fu movie, The Mystery of Chess Boxing (which is why Wu-Tang Clan has a song "Da Mystery Of Chessboxin'").

RedMage125

2017-04-07, 12:26 PM

I'm not surprised by that at all. They do some very, very horrable things. Both in captivity and in the wild. Personaly I would feel safer around sharks.

Not long ago, I read something someone wrote on the internet complaining about how sharks are always depicted as evil and rapacious. Sharks lack moral agency, they are simply animals trying to feed.

Dolphins, on the other hand, are highly intelligent, have language and problem solving skills. Even if only 5% of the dolphins of the world are evil, that's more evil dolphins than evil sharks.

Zombulian

2017-04-07, 12:34 PM

FWIW, Ghost-faced Killah is a member of Wu-Tang Clan that got his name from a character named Ghost Face Killer in a Chinese kung-fu movie, The Mystery of Chess Boxing (which is why Wu-Tang Clan has a song "Da Mystery Of Chessboxin'").

If we're recognizing Kung Fu movie references, has anyone mentioned Drunken Master?

Celestia

2017-04-07, 12:50 PM

Not long ago, I read something someone wrote on the internet complaining about how sharks are always depicted as evil and rapacious. Sharks lack moral agency, they are simply animals trying to feed.

Dolphins, on the other hand, are highly intelligent, have language and problem solving skills. Even if only 5% of the dolphins of the world are evil, that's more evil dolphins than evil sharks.
I think the evil sharks thing is mostly a result of kids' movies that need to have some cartoonishly evil villain. But I could be wrong. Maybe it's older than that. I just know that sharks haven't always been seen as evil, and some cultures actually revere them. The Pacific Islanders, for instance, see sharks as protectors.

nintendoh

2017-04-07, 01:11 PM

I heard a story where an aquarium had to separate the dolphins into their own tank because they developed a game where they would catch the manta rays in their beaks, swim to the surface, and then skip the rays across the water.

Sounds fun. Kinda like tennis i imagine. Manta out of tank... Double fault!

Venger

2017-04-07, 01:26 PM

I think the evil sharks thing is mostly a result of kids' movies that need to have some cartoonishly evil villain. But I could be wrong. Maybe it's older than that. I just know that sharks haven't always been seen as evil, and some cultures actually revere them. The Pacific Islanders, for instance, see sharks as protectors.

well that's a more specific mask of all predators being evil since victims are good guys, we're always meant to sympathize with herbivores since they're the underdogs in animal movies.

anti-shark sentiment though is directly attributable to "jaws." the movie was so influential, there had to be public announcements to get people to stop killing sharks since there was a substantial dent being made in their population.

remetagross

2017-04-07, 01:27 PM

When it comes to evil scheming dolphins, there is that novel of the Cthulhu mythos, not by Lovecraft but by one of his buddies, creepy as hell. Dolphins are depicted to be ancient, sentient minions of the Great Old One related to Innsmouth :(

Zombulian

2017-04-07, 01:50 PM

Venger

2017-04-07, 01:57 PM

Alabenson

2017-04-07, 02:22 PM

I'd say one of my favorites comes from Drow of the Underdark, where it's flat-out stated that the drow are so murder happy that if Lloth wasn't micromanaging their society they'd backstab themselves into extinction.

ShurikVch

2017-04-07, 02:46 PM

anti-shark sentiment though is directly attributable to "jaws."Actually, it's way older than it.
For example:
"The Shark (http://www.kidsworldfun.com/short-stories/the-shark.php)" (Leo Tolstoy, 1875)

Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Thousand_Leagues_Under_the_Sea) (Jules Verne, 1869—1870):
My blood froze in my veins as I recognised two formidable sharks which threatened us. It was a couple of tintoreas, terrible creatures, with enormous tails and a dull glassy stare, the phosphorescent matter ejected from holes pierced around the muzzle. Monstrous brutes! which would crush a whole man in their iron jaws.

Watson and the Shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_and_the_Shark) (John Singleton Copley, 1778)

Venger

2017-04-07, 02:49 PM

Actually, it's way older than it.
For example:
"The Shark (http://www.kidsworldfun.com/short-stories/the-shark.php)" (Leo Tolstoy, 1875)

Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Thousand_Leagues_Under_the_Sea) (Jules Verne, 1869—1870):

Watson and the Shark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_and_the_Shark) (John Singleton Copley, 1778)
Fair enough. I was speaking more to anti-shark sentiments having a significant deleterious effect on the real-world shark population, which I don't think any of those works did.

ATHATH

2017-04-07, 04:13 PM

I heard a story where an aquarium had to separate the dolphins into their own tank because they developed a game where they would catch the manta rays in their beaks, swim to the surface, and then skip the rays across the water.
That's not really that bad; in fact, it sound kind of cute.

remetagross

2017-04-07, 06:35 PM

was it this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_anthology#Tales_of_the_Cthulhu_Myth os)

Yeah it's one of the stories in this anthology. It's "The Deep Ones" from James Wade.

Celestia

2017-04-07, 06:43 PM

well that's a more specific mask of all predators being evil since victims are good guys, we're always meant to sympathize with herbivores since they're the underdogs in animal movies.

anti-shark sentiment though is directly attributable to "jaws." the movie was so influential, there had to be public announcements to get people to stop killing sharks since there was a substantial dent being made in their population.
Oh, duh! How in the world did I forget about Jaws?

That's not really that bad; in fact, it sound kind of cute.
In what way is throwing an animal around "not bad?" If I decided to play catch by tossing a dog around, would you call that cute?

Grim Portent

2017-04-07, 06:49 PM

That's not really that bad; in fact, it sound kind of cute.

It's one of several examples of dolphins tortuing other animals to death for fun. I wouldn't use the word cute to describe it.

They also use porpoises as volleyballs, batting them through the air with their tails towards each other, which breaks a lot of their bones and ruptures their organs, and biting them repeatedly.

Lotta dead porpoises wash up after being murdered by dolphins for giggles.

danielxcutter

2017-04-07, 07:26 PM

Not long ago, I read something someone wrote on the internet complaining about how sharks are always depicted as evil and rapacious. Sharks lack moral agency, they are simply animals trying to feed.

Dolphins, on the other hand, are highly intelligent, have language and problem solving skills. Even if only 5% of the dolphins of the world are evil, that's more evil dolphins than evil sharks.

I think I've seen something like this too. Tumblr, if I remember correctly.

When it comes to evil scheming dolphins, there is that novel of the Cthulhu mythos, not by Lovecraft but by one of his buddies, creepy as hell. Dolphins are depicted to be ancient, sentient minions of the Great Old One related to Innsmouth :(

Doctor Blowhole from the Penguins of Madagascar, anyone?

Stealth Marmot

2017-04-07, 09:21 PM

All hail Pelor, the Burning Hate! (http://i.imgur.com/DGFSDVG.png)

It's not much of a stretch to get an idea of Pelor being a potentially hateful god. Pholtus, another god of good, sun, and light is notably less militant by the very text of deities and demigods, which is why players are better served with Pelor.

But being militant, willing to take violent measures, and fanatical is precisely the recipe for faith motivated hatred. It's no stretch to believe that Pelor is Zarus, just trying to be a little more low key, or alternatively Zarus is the darker side of Pelor. The Hyde to Pelor's Jekyll.

Gildedragon

2017-04-07, 09:33 PM

It's not much of a stretch to get an idea of Pelor being a potentially hateful god. Pholtus, another god of good, sun, and light is notably less militant by the very text of deities and demigods, which is why players are better served with Pelor.

But being militant, willing to take violent measures, and fanatical is precisely the recipe for faith motivated hatred. It's no stretch to believe that Pelor is Zarus, just trying to be a little more low key, or alternatively Zarus is the darker side of Pelor. The Hyde to Pelor's Jekyll.

I want to someday play a CG necropolitan archivist or binder (divine anima mage?) that suscribes to that theory.

Inevitability

2017-04-07, 11:53 PM

I want to someday play a CG necropolitan archivist or binder (divine anima mage?) that suscribes to that theory.

I once made a NE cleric who, thanks to the Heretic of the Faith feat, still got spells from Pelor. He genuinely believed Pelor was evil, and worshipped him for all the usual reasons people worship evil gods.

RolkFlameraven

2017-04-08, 12:25 AM

I once made a NE cleric who, thanks to the Heretic of the Faith feat, still got spells from Pelor. He genuinely believed Pelor was evil, and worshipped him for all the usual reasons people worship evil gods.

Huh, I spend most of my time in the Realms so I forget how Greyhawk works, but does that mean that when he dies, barring soul selling, that he will end up in one of the heavens even though he is evil simply do to becoming a Petitioner of Pelor? That's a rather nifty get out of jail free card right there.

Venger

2017-04-08, 12:39 AM

Huh, I spend most of my time in the Realms so I forget how Greyhawk works, but does that mean that when he dies, barring soul selling, that he will end up in one of the heavens even though he is evil simply do to becoming a Petitioner of Pelor? That's a rather nifty get out of jail free card right there.

nope.

heretic of the faith says that when you die, if while you were alive your heresy was adopted and became the new norm amongst your religion, you move on to whatever reward normal worshippers get. if it was still heretical when you died, your butt goes on the wall unless your deity intervenes to protect you from kelemvor. also your pals can protect you with miracle or wish, but if they've got access to that it'd be easier to just bring you back, so unless you're retiring the character, that's kind of a waste of time.

Particle_Man

2017-04-08, 02:24 AM

Keltest

2017-04-08, 07:22 AM

nope.

heretic of the faith says that when you die, if while you were alive your heresy was adopted and became the new norm amongst your religion, you move on to whatever reward normal worshippers get. if it was still heretical when you died, your butt goes on the wall unless your deity intervenes to protect you from kelemvor. also your pals can protect you with miracle or wish, but if they've got access to that it'd be easier to just bring you back, so unless you're retiring the character, that's kind of a waste of time.

The wall nonsense only applies to the Forgotten Realms, which IIRC Pelor is not a part of.

Svata

2017-04-08, 08:41 AM

*bile rises in my throat at the mention of the wall of the faithless*

danielxcutter

2017-04-08, 09:41 AM

*bile rises in my throat at the mention of the wall of the faithless*

Hmm... if what I read on TvTropes in the past is correct, you get stuck in the wall and your soul is slowly and painfully digested into nothingness, for the "crime" of not worshipping a specific god, regardless of alignment, right? I also remember that the first god of death did that for the lulz, and the second couldn't remove it because the wall had become required by then.

Keltest

2017-04-08, 09:50 AM

Hmm... if what I read on TvTropes in the past is correct, you get stuck in the wall and your soul is slowly and painfully digested into nothingness, for the "crime" of not worshipping a specific god, regardless of alignment, right? I also remember that the first god of death did that for the lulz, and the second couldn't remove it because the wall had become required by then.

Something like that. Its become a load-bearing wall for the universe or something equally nonsensical.

The neverwinter Nights 2 expansion deals with it pretty heavily, and at least pretends that the gods leave it there because if they didn't, mortals would start going noncommittal all over the place and the gods would lose all their power.

Kish

2017-04-08, 10:00 AM

Under normal circumstances no worshiper of Pelor is going anywhere near the Wall, because the Wall is part of the Forgotten Realms afterlife and has nothing to do with any other campaign setting, such as Oerth.

Then again, if the character was allowed a feat from Power of Faerun, it may come with a "you go to the Forgotten Realms afterlife when you die, mua-ha-ha" rider. In which case, the character, who presumably lived and died never hearing of the Forgotten Realms gods, is multiply shafted and yet has no one but themself to blame.

Venger

2017-04-08, 01:37 PM

*bile rises in my throat at the mention of the wall of the faithless*

I thought I was the only one

Hmm... if what I read on TvTropes in the past is correct, you get stuck in the wall and your soul is slowly and painfully digested into nothingness, for the "crime" of not worshipping a specific god, regardless of alignment, right? I also remember that the first god of death did that for the lulz, and the second couldn't remove it because the wall had become required by then.

yes that's correct.

RolkFlameraven

2017-04-08, 04:04 PM

Well unless some demon or devil comes along and rips you out of it and brings your soul back with them.

But I was more talking about the feat in some other setting outside of Faerûn. I guess Wee Jas could stand in for Kelemvor for the burning hate, but I don't think they have a wall... All those Clerics and Paladins of "ideas" would be so screwed if they did. Man that would be the worst practical joke of all time if she has had one and just never told anyone and hid it away...

Though I do not understood why you would be sent to the wall in the first place for this feat. You are NOT faithless, after all, but one of the false.

Also the wall was made by the 2nd god of death, the 3rd used it just fine. The fourth and current one didn't for a while and gave people endings based off of how they lived and how they died. Seeing as he was one of the vanishingly rare LG death gods everyone loved him. Sadly this put all other gods under massive strain because AO had made them all dependent on worship. Evil gods still got theirs from evil people but good people...

Well lets just say that Adventurers who know for an absolute fact that heaven is waiting for them if they die fighting this dragon in a noble sacrifice don't have the best survival instincts anymore. As this was whether you worshiped a god or not. So any faithless or false go a "reward" as they ended in his care. So people stopped caring about the other gods in many ways and the only one that mattered, the one you see in the end, wouldn't screw you over so long as you were "good"

The Trial of Cyric The Mad is the novel that talks about it.

danielxcutter

2017-04-08, 05:15 PM

...Okay, let's talk about something that doesn't involve the slow and painful destruction of one's immortal soul.

Zombulian

2017-04-08, 05:54 PM

*bile rises in my throat at the mention of the wall of the faithless*

I thought I was the only one

...Okay, let's talk about something that doesn't involve the slow and painful destruction of one's immortal soul.

I don't see the issue... don't you guys find that funny?

Thurbane

2017-04-08, 05:57 PM

There was a recent Villanous Competition entry that was a parody of Jozan, focusing on the Burning Hate aspect of Pelor, and used the Heretic of the Faith feat for pretty much exactly this effect. :smallbiggrin:

atemu1234

2017-04-08, 08:53 PM

The Viscount

2017-04-09, 11:30 PM

If you follow the sources through several books, you can weave together an interesting story about the lords of the nine.

As we learn from ToM, when the lords attempted a coup, Geryon was loyal to Asmodeus. The other lords were restored to their positions, but he was consumed by Asmodeus and replaced with the Hag Countess, as seen in BoVD. By FCII Asmodeus has gotten rid of her and used the energy from Geryon to bestow the mantle of lord of the nine upon Glasya, who is his daughter. So we have a plotting tyrannical overlord who constructs schemes years in the making, for the end result of nepotism. Diabolical.

ATHATH

2017-04-09, 11:51 PM

Inevitability

2017-04-10, 12:03 AM

atemu1234

2017-04-10, 12:10 AM

The fact that Calzone golems exist and are wandering around is something that never ceases to amuse me.

hamishspence

2017-04-10, 01:16 AM

Why would Asmodeus kill the guy who was loyal to him, while leaving the guys who tried to throw him out of his seat of power where they were before the coup?

... Maybe Geryon's death was faked, and Asmodeus uses him as an agent/assassin/whatever?

Maybe it was a case of Bad Is Good And Good Is Bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadIsGoodAndGoodIsBad) - "diehard loyalty" is a virtue, and thus, in the Nine Hells, something to be punished when character is caught in it?

Venger

2017-04-10, 02:18 AM

Maybe it was a case of Bad Is Good And Good Is Bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadIsGoodAndGoodIsBad) - "diehard loyalty" is a virtue, and thus, in the Nine Hells, something to be punished when character is caught in it?

Asmodeus punishing the guy who was loyal to him in order to remain unpredictable to his enemies is also a theory.

Or Asmodeus is just a total jerkstore.

Celestia

2017-04-10, 02:33 AM

Maybe it was a case of Bad Is Good And Good Is Bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadIsGoodAndGoodIsBad) - "diehard loyalty" is a virtue, and thus, in the Nine Hells, something to be punished when character is caught in it?
Loyalty is a lawful action, not a good one. Therefore, in the Hells, it should not only be accepted but even expected.

ben-zayb

2017-04-10, 03:03 AM

Asmodeus punishing the guy who was loyal to him in order to remain unpredictable to his enemies is also a theory.

Or Asmodeus is just a total jerkstore.

It could be less of a punishment and more of just trying to reinforce the status quo, which includes eliminating anyone who are getting too influential/powerful than is necessary for big A's purposes. Probably nothing but a cutthroat, business-as-usual move. That said, whatever is the concept of "rewards" in the Nine Hells might just be twisted enough to be incomprehensible to mortals.

Inevitability

2017-04-10, 05:40 AM

Loyalty is a lawful action, not a good one. Therefore, in the Hells, it should not only be accepted but even expected.

This. Fiendish Codex II has a table of lawful acts, and half of them are various flavors of 'do X in the name of Y when you have no personal connection to Y'.

ATHATH

2017-04-10, 08:43 AM

Given that Geryon became a vestige, that's one convincing faked death.
He's a vestige? Ah, that explains it. If Geryon is still loyal to him, Asmodeus can now effectively see through the eyes of the hundreds (if not thousands) of Binders who bind Geryon.

The Viscount

2017-04-10, 05:19 PM

I seriously doubt that Asmodeous has the power to access the world through Geryon. More than that, that assumes Geryon is still loyal after being killed so hard he became a vestige. Furthermore, given the discussion of binder in ToM it seems like there are far more diabolical agents in the prime material than binders.

ShurikVch

2017-04-10, 05:54 PM

Given that Geryon became a vestige, that's one convincing faked death.Considering the fact Shami-Amorae, Astaroth, and Ahazu the Seizer are all very much alive, but still available to binding as vestiges, being a vestige ain't a sign of death - "hidden sufficiently well" works just as good (by that logic, Pandorym should be suitable option :smallamused:)

Starbuck_II

2017-04-10, 06:19 PM

Don't forget Orcus is also a vestige (well, one version of him, Tenebrous)

Thurbane

2017-04-10, 08:01 PM

I'm imagining a cologne ad with Orcus as the spokesman:

"Sometimes I'm a demon lord. Sometimes I'm an undead vestige. Other times I'm a deity."

OrcusTM - the men's fragrance for any occasion.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sVtNdswqtmI/Un8BoqCtU7I/AAAAAAAAAR8/eK-G184YNGQ/s1600/Orcus.gif

...the bottle is shaped like the Wand of Orcus, of course.

atemu1234

2017-04-10, 08:46 PM

Also, Geryon was probably consumed by Asmodeus for power - probably to put down the other lords.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-10, 08:55 PM

Speaking of Faerun, has anyone seen the Faerun Trade Map? With such wonders as...

1) Cormyr trading Ivory, despite no mention of any ivory-growing beasts.
2) Lantan, AN ISLAND, trading caravan supplies. Instead of boats.
3) The Dalelands being the breadbasket of the Heartlands...Despite having no direct trade route to the Heartlands and having to compete with both Cormyr AND Sembia for the honor. Sembia being a country of cutthroat merchants and in their way both on land and on sea.
4) Evermeet apparently trades with the ocean?
5) Coffee is listed as a trade good, but is no where to be found on the map.
6) Murghom, which is landlocked, trades in fish.
7) Mercenaries are listed as a trade good. That...Raises some questions.
8) Lake of Steam also prefers caravan supplies instead of boats, despite BEING A LAKE WITH RIVERS.
9) Calimshan exports weapons, but not iron.
10) Trade goods is listed as a type of trade good. As opposed to silk, spices and gems?

Zombulian

2017-04-10, 09:25 PM

7) Mercenaries are listed as a trade good. That...Raises some questions.

The Unsullied are known far and wide.
Alrhough I suppose a slave is hard to classify as a mercenary since you're not paying them...

tiercel

2017-04-11, 12:18 AM

The Blade of the Last Citadel (the White Raven legacy sword from ToB) is a vampire lollipop.

If it's used to injure an "innocent sentient being," it weeps blood until given away or there's an atonement.

Nom nom nom. Forget attuning to the weapon or paying any of its legacy costs! It's rations (or at least a treat) on the go. Plus! Carry it with you for objectionable social visits. Yes. Yesssss, trail of blood all over their carpets. The town guard will love you as well when you are constantly leaving trails of blood across their fine city (doubleplus if you are doing so while they are trying to track down bloodthirsty predators).

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Inevitability

2017-04-11, 12:31 AM

4) Evermeet apparently trades with the ocean?

This is D&D: aquatic empires are a thing. Aquatic elves seem the ideal mediators in such a situation.

Mr Adventurer

2017-04-11, 10:45 AM

Venger

2017-04-11, 11:08 AM

bloodcrier's hammer, another legacy item, also freely weeps blood from the skull motif on its surface without needing to bonk anyone with it.

The Viscount

2017-04-11, 12:05 PM

Considering the fact Shami-Amorae, Astaroth, and Ahazu the Seizer are all very much alive, but still available to binding as vestiges, being a vestige ain't a sign of death - "hidden sufficiently well" works just as good (by that logic, Pandorym should be suitable option :smallamused:)
While being dead isn't the only way to become a vestige, the paths to becoming a vestige all render one inaccessible and irretrievably lost. Note that the vestiges you are referencing are from the savage tide adventure. I'm not fully acquainted with it but I think they work slightly differently.

Don't forget Orcus is also a vestige (well, one version of him, Tenebrous)

Tenebrous is a strange case because the vestige is the remains of Orcus divinity since he resurrected as a deity but after hanging out as Tenebrous for a while decided to revert back to being a Demon Lord. D&D Cosmology is weird.

Also on the subject of vestiges, Kas causes you to weep blood out of an eye in your hand, so you can probably bottle that for your vampire friend.

Inevitability

2017-04-11, 01:02 PM

Also on the subject of vestiges, Kas causes you to weep blood out of an eye in your hand, so you can probably bottle that for your vampire friend.

Acererak also has the following sign:

A gem replaces one of your teeth. If removed, the gem reverts to a normal tooth, and a new gem appears in its place.

In other words, any mid-level binder with a bit of downtime can decorate their every possession with human teeth.

Venger

2017-04-11, 01:13 PM

Acererak also has the following sign:

In other words, any mid-level binder with a bit of downtime can decorate their every possession with human teeth.

in D&D, the tooth fairy leaves teeth

Dagroth

2017-04-11, 01:21 PM

in D&D, the tooth fairy leaves teeth

Does it show how old I am that I couldn't read that without imagining Yakov Shmirnov (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xtpuI3IK0)?

digiman619

2017-04-11, 01:36 PM

Does it show how old I am that I couldn't read that without imagining Yakov Shmirnov (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xtpuI3IK0)?

In Soviet Russia, Yakov Smirnov thinks of you!

Celestia

2017-04-11, 01:48 PM

Acererak also has the following sign:

In other words, any mid-level binder with a bit of downtime can decorate their every possession with human teeth.
II wonder how that works if you're plating something without teeth or even a mouth, like a warforged or a plant. Does my awakened shrub grow a tooth on one of its roots?

Venger

2017-04-11, 01:56 PM

Does it show how old I am that I couldn't read that without imagining Yakov Shmirnov (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xtpuI3IK0)?

you were correct to do so, that's what I was doing.

II wonder how that works if you're plating something without teeth or even a mouth, like a warforged or a plant. Does my awakened shrub grow a tooth on one of its roots?

Probably.

Warforged can have teeth if they want to through jaws of death. Some plants have teeth, like tendriculos. Presumably you grow a tooth like that.

Morph into an elephant and bind acererak. Infinite ethical ivory without needing fabricate or creation.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-11, 02:22 PM

The Unsullied are known far and wide.
Alrhough I suppose a slave is hard to classify as a mercenary since you're not paying them...

Slaves are a different trade good, so the mercenaries are either a different type of slave, or...?

This is D&D: aquatic empires are a thing. Aquatic elves seem the ideal mediators in such a situation.

Except that the ocean is unmarked, and the aquatic elves are elsewhere. Were it an aquatic empire, I think it should probably be marked else it looks like elves just sail over to dump trade goods overboard. Having to double check a trade map for who might be in the region to trade is probably not a sign of a well designed map.

Celestia

2017-04-11, 02:58 PM

you were correct to do so, that's what I was doing.

Probably.

Warforged can have teeth if they want to through jaws of death. Some plants have teeth, like tendriculos. Presumably you grow a tooth like that.

Morph into an elephant and bind acererak. Infinite ethical ivory without needing fabricate or creation.
I just realized how awesome it would look for an elephant to have a gem tusk.

Venger

2017-04-11, 03:07 PM

I just realized how awesome it would look for an elephant to have a gem tusk.

ellies are majestic and noble creatures (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/da/6e/87/da6e87be9ae2356680b36c1310c94b44.gif)

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-11, 05:09 PM

ellies are majestic and noble creatures (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/da/6e/87/da6e87be9ae2356680b36c1310c94b44.gif)

Any creature which cannot be made fabulous is a creature I cannot respect.

remetagross

2017-04-11, 05:56 PM

Morph into an elephant and bind acererak. Infinite ethical ivory without needing fabricate or creation.

I laughed out loud here :smallbiggrin: one of the craziest ways ever to break WBL! And what if you turn into a narwhale instead? Their horn is actually an oversized tooth :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane

2017-04-11, 07:57 PM

Considering there are at least 3 bipedal "elephant races" in D&D, this is quite a neat concept.

Venger

2017-04-11, 08:05 PM

Considering there are at least 3 bipedal "elephant races" in D&D, this is quite a neat concept.

loxo, hollyphant, and maelephant?

Thurbane

2017-04-11, 11:03 PM

Also Thraskor (MH). I hadn't thought of Hollyphant.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mhbk_gallery/76961_CN.jpg

Venger

2017-04-12, 12:31 AM

great art. maelephants are awesome. they just want to hang out, guard stuff, and eat meat. plus their amnesia ability is as far as I know unique and opens up a lot of neat possibilities.

Inevitability

2017-04-12, 12:56 AM

great art. maelephants are awesome. they just want to hang out, guard stuff, and eat meat. plus their amnesia ability is as far as I know unique and opens up a lot of neat possibilities.

You do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21126806&postcount=32)n't say. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21126808&postcount=33)

Thurbane

2017-04-12, 02:25 AM

You do (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21126806&postcount=32)n't say. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21126808&postcount=33)

Definitely one of the more memorable entries since I've been chair...if you'll pardon the pun.

Venger

2017-04-12, 02:33 AM

it would've been rude not to forget an amnesia build.

Arbane

2017-04-12, 06:59 PM

In 2E dolphins had Lawful Good alignment and Intelligence 11, i. e. smarter than the average human.

The notion that dolphins had human-level intelligence was pretty popular back in the 1970s. (It's faded a bit since then.)

Not when I DM. Then I play them closer to their true alignment (CE). Same with were bears. No way in heck is anything bear related Good.

The LG Werebears probably come from that one shapeshifter guy in Lord of the Rings. (And the evil wererats from Fritz Leiber's stories.)

Vizzerdrix

2017-04-12, 07:32 PM

I always found it funny that female greenscale nagas could turn their tails into legs. I think it is the only race where one gender is mechanicaly better than the other.

Venger

2017-04-12, 07:39 PM

I always found it funny that female greenscale nagas could turn their tails into legs. I think it is the only race where one gender is mechanicaly better than the other.

rakas, formians, and abeil I think are the others with mechanical sex differences.

Malimar

2017-04-12, 07:50 PM

I always found it funny that female greenscale nagas could turn their tails into legs. I think it is the only race where one gender is mechanicaly better than the other.
But they can't enter Eunuch Warlock! That's a terrible tradeoff.

Bohandas

2017-04-12, 07:59 PM

The demon prince Yeenoghu won the loyalty of the King of Ghouls long ago, so has him at his side. In the 3.5 update, his sidekick was given a proper name, Doresain, and updated to a Demigod. Despite this level of divine power under his command, Yeenoghu is still one of the lesser demon princes. Also, because Doresain did not receive a statblock when he became a demigod, I think that means he uses the one in BoVD of an advanced fiendish ghoul, CR 10. This means he's about tied with Imhotep as the weakest deity (who's expert 20).

I think there was one in the Deities & Demigods web enhancement who only had one character level. "Erbin" or something like that IIRC

Thurbane

2017-04-12, 07:59 PM

The notion that dolphins had human-level intelligence was pretty popular back in the 1970s. (It's faded a bit since then.)

I'm pretty sure the 1E Monster Manual also had the giant lynx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx) as having human level intellect (in fact, Intelligence: Very). I guess you can argue that as the giant version, it had evolved it's brain along with becoming bigger...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-lynx-dogs-poker_player-golf-golfers-jhen55_low.jpg

Man, I loved 1E; as much as 3.5 is my preferred system these days, I had tons of fun playing 1E (and also 2E).

Keltest

2017-04-12, 08:10 PM

The LG Werebears probably come from that one shapeshifter guy in Lord of the Rings. (And the evil wererats from Fritz Leiber's stories.)

That seems a little unlikely given that Beorn was called out, multiple times, as being wild and somewhat unpredictable. He was just as likely to murder the dwarves as help them

The Viscount

2017-04-12, 11:43 PM

In PHB 2 there are some sample Barbarian battle cries. One provided is "Blood for the Blood God!" which you will recognize from Warhammer40K.

Inevitability

2017-04-13, 12:32 AM

I always found it funny that female greenscale nagas could turn their tails into legs. I think it is the only race where one gender is mechanicaly better than the other.

In 4e, medusas had two genders, with the females being the usual snakes-as-hair people, and the males having a poisonous gaze attack much like the traditional basilisk's.

Khedrac

2017-04-13, 02:37 AM

The LG Werebears probably come from that one shapeshifter guy in Lord of the Rings.

That seems a little unlikely given that Beorn was called out, multiple times, as being wild and somewhat unpredictable. He was just as likely to murder the dwarves as help them
That would be why the Werebear alignment was Chaotic Good not Lawful...

I'm pretty sure the 1E Monster Manual also had the giant lynx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx) as having human level intellect (in fact, Intelligence: Very).
Wow - I never even noticed that one back in the day!

If we are now including odd bits of lore from earlier versions as well as current ones...
According to the Companion D&D set the Known World (i.e. Mystara before it became hollow) is actually the real world earth hundreds of thousands of years ago in the age before magic died out (the Companion set world map is a direct continent position extrapolation).
According to Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, Oerth and Earth are two of a number of parallel worlds (iirc others include Arth and Urth).
In the 2ed Ed Realmspace book, Elminster's hideout in space has a portal to modern day America (in Ed Greenwood's home), add Dragon Magazine's Wizards Three articles and Elminster and Mordenkainen (and Dalamar) are contemporaries (though we don't know when this is, all three are very long lived so it could be well after the published campaign setting dates).

So, logically anything of the Known World should be well in the past for Spelljammer/Planescape/standard campaigns. Yes there are build-in methods for time travel there, but be very careful if travelling there from a standard campaign...

Perhaps this is why the Known World still has Draeden wandering around actively interfering in things? Also with the only alignments being Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic (and a totally different planar cosmology - the pre-WotI Astral Plane is just fun) perhaps this is also before the great Law v. Chaos great war?

Bohandas

2017-04-13, 12:01 PM

That would be why the Werebear alignment was Chaotic Good not Lawful...

Wow - I never even noticed that one back in the day!

If we are now including odd bits of lore from earlier versions as well as current ones...
According to the Companion D&D set the Known World (i.e. Mystara before it became hollow) is actually the real world earth hundreds of thousands of years ago in the age before magic died out (the Companion set world map is a direct continent position extrapolation).
According to Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, Oerth and Earth are two of a number of parallel worlds (iirc others include Arth and Urth).
In the 2ed Ed Realmspace book, Elminster's hideout in space has a portal to modern day America (in Ed Greenwood's home), add Dragon Magazine's Wizards Three articles and Elminster and Mordenkainen (and Dalamar) are contemporaries (though we don't know when this is, all three are very long lived so it could be well after the published campaign setting dates).

Both of those characters come across as annoyingly Mary-Sue-ish

Strangely they somehow even come off as more mary sue ish than Gary Gygax's character Zagyg, whose name is just "Gygax" (mis)spelled backwards and who canonically once held the gods prisoner in his basement

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-13, 03:38 PM

Gildedragon

2017-04-13, 03:42 PM

Khedrac

2017-04-13, 03:55 PM

Okay, it has been over a decade since I read the Dragonlance books, but can someone tell me why Ed--I mean, Elminster or Mordenkainen would invite a murderer over for poker? Are they trying to be edgy, or did they just never find out that he was attempting to overthrow Raistlin only for the power?
Ditto, and the same for the "Wizards three" articles, but I think I can remember some of it.
The reason wasn't really well spelled out, but it appeared to be that they regarded those three sphere as the dominant ones in terms of activity affecting , well everything, and they wanted to meet up with the most powerful wizard of Krynn so as to get a handle on what is happening there.
Now yes, Dalamar is "evil", while they are not (I don't remember Elminster's alignment, but Mordenkainen is a variety of Neutral, probably true) but they did seem to be trying to show him that being evil did not mean he could not be fairly responsible and trusted (yes, they were specifically trying to show him that they trusted him to be responsible with the spells they were sharing). So, to a degree they were tyring to 'redeem' him, but also they were showing him that what he did in his own time didn't matter (and to a degree his own world) butif he was prepared to place nicely he could represent Krynn at the 'big boys' table.

As for the "Mary Sue-ness" of the Big M, do remember that this was Ed Greenwood's take on the Big M rather than any of the original players.

That said, whilst Ed and other have given Elminster some insane spells in Forgotten Realms material (such as the one that just absorbs whatever is used against him) he has M come out with concepts that frightened E. For example: Mordenkainen's Involuntary Lubrication - the spell forced a memorised spell out of the target's memory and visited it's affects upon them; the spell so cast was random and E was profoundly thankful that several seasons of reseach had made no progress towards being able to select the spell so cast...

Svata

2017-04-13, 04:18 PM

Mordenkainen's Involuntary Lubrication - the spell forced a memorised spell out of the target's memory and visited it's affects upon them; the spell so cast was random and E was profoundly thankful that several seasons of reseach had made no progress towards being able to select the spell so cast...

Lucubration. Involuntary Lubrication is horrifying too, but for different reasons.

Dagroth

2017-04-13, 04:24 PM

Lucubration. Involuntary Lubrication is horrifying too, but for different reasons.

I know I shuddered when I read that...

I bet Big E never turned around or bent over when Big M was around. :smallbiggrin:

digiman619

2017-04-13, 04:38 PM

I know I shuddered when I read that...

I bet Big E never turned around or bent over when Big M was around. :smallbiggrin:

Of course not; he's too busy with Kofi Kingston and Xavier Woods. :smalltongue:

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-13, 04:49 PM

Now yes, Dalamar is "evil", while they are not (I don't remember Elminster's alignment, but Mordenkainen is a variety of Neutral, probably true) but they did seem to be trying to show him that being evil did not mean he could not be fairly responsible and trusted (yes, they were specifically trying to show him that they trusted him to be responsible with the spells they were sharing). So, to a degree they were tyring to 'redeem' him, but also they were showing him that what he did in his own time didn't matter (and to a degree his own world) butif he was prepared to place nicely he could represent Krynn at the 'big boys' table.

I am pretty sure that Elminster is Chaotic Good, so a good aligned person gave spells over to a known slaver and murderer on the honor code...When he plotted to kill the last guy who taught him magic. Good job there.

Also, Elminster runs a very large organization of good aligned folks battling tyranny, so I am not buying he doesn't care about good and evil very much anymore.

noob

2017-04-13, 04:53 PM

Maybe the authors who made the respective characters were friends and so the characters were friends.
(mary sues are also often inspired of their creator but with then all the ridiculous mary sue powers the authors imagined and possibly a "trait for showing it is not a mary sue" which is not a real flaw but just something placed so the author could fool himself)
Anyway there is no reasons for those characters to be coherent.

Sagetim

2017-04-13, 09:35 PM

If we are allowed to go to earlier editions can I mention the 1e giant beavers? Because they are awesome.

Also, there are two entire adventure modules in AD&D 1st ed based on the settings of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass.

http://www.mcgillsociety.org/dnd/dnd-misc/Classic-DnD/EX1-2-f/EX1-2-intro.html

Oh, technically the clerics with vow of poverty have it worse than the above holy wizards of celestial mystics. Clerics with vow of poverty can't use holy symbols! That cuts out a lot of their spells and their ability to turn undead.

My first reaction was all 'wait, that doesn't sound right' but it is true. As long as you don't interpret being allowed to use a spell component pouch as equivalent to having a basic holy symbol. That said, you don't need a holy symbol if you get a holy symbol tattooed onto your flesh (which is not disallowed by the feat), and if your gm is being really obnoxious about it, saying that a tattoo is worth money and therefore not allowed, Then you can have a cleric of your faith heat his holy symbol up in a bonfire and press it against your bare chest to have the manliest holy symbol possible: a giant scar in the shape of your holy symbol.

If that's not fanatical devotion worthy of counting as a holy symbol, then the gods just aren't paying attention.

Talking about gods not paying attention, the whole wall of the faithless thing and Kelemvor being Lawful Good as a death god is a great example of the forgotten realm deities not paying attention. They didn't act in a manner deserving worship, and relied on the wall of the faithless as the most horrible stick to force people to choose one of them over being obliterated painfully, and then when that stick was no longer there they cried and moaned and somehow managed to force the god of death to change alignment to lawful neutral instead of realizing that maybe they should do their damn jobs properly. Yet another entry in the 'Forgotten Realms Gods act like spoiled children instead of mature adults' category. Also in that category is 'why they had their power tied to the faith of their worshippers in the first place' which, as I recall, came down to AO being annoyed that some of them were trying to steal his crap so he slapped all of them down to the mortal realm except Helm. Who was in charge of slapping any of them that tried to get back up to being gods without learning their lesson. This is around the time that Bhall decided 'mmmm, better go seed as many children as possible so that when I'm inevitably killed I can eat them to ressurect'.

Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of the Forgotten Realms gods. They just don't seem to justify being given any respect. Which is a funny thing about dnd 3.5, now that I think about it. The gods expect your respect, your worship, and your obedience, but don't really do anything to deserve it.

danielxcutter

2017-04-13, 09:39 PM

My first reaction was all 'wait, that doesn't sound right' but it is true. As long as you don't interpret being allowed to use a spell component pouch as equivalent to having a basic holy symbol. That said, you don't need a holy symbol if you get a holy symbol tattooed onto your flesh (which is not disallowed by the feat), and if your gm is being really obnoxious about it, saying that a tattoo is worth money and therefore not allowed, Then you can have a cleric of your faith heat his holy symbol up in a bonfire and press it against your bare chest to have the manliest holy symbol possible: a giant scar in the shape of your holy symbol.

If that's not fanatical devotion worthy of counting as a holy symbol, then the gods just aren't paying attention.

Talking about gods not paying attention, the whole wall of the faithless thing and Kelemvor being Lawful Good as a death god is a great example of the forgotten realm deities not paying attention. They didn't act in a manner deserving worship, and relied on the wall of the faithless as the most horrible stick to force people to choose one of them over being obliterated painfully, and then when that stick was no longer there they cried and moaned and somehow managed to force the god of death to change alignment to lawful neutral instead of realizing that maybe they should do their damn jobs properly. Yet another entry in the 'Forgotten Realms Gods act like spoiled children instead of mature adults' category. Also in that category is 'why they had their power tied to the faith of their worshippers in the first place' which, as I recall, came down to AO being annoyed that some of them were trying to steal his crap so he slapped all of them down to the mortal realm except Helm. Who was in charge of slapping any of them that tried to get back up to being gods without learning their lesson. This is around the time that Bhall decided 'mmmm, better go seed as many children as possible so that when I'm inevitably killed I can eat them to ressurect'.

Suffice to say, I'm not a fan of the Forgotten Realms gods. They just don't seem to justify being given any respect. Which is a funny thing about dnd 3.5, now that I think about it. The gods expect your respect, your worship, and your obedience, but don't really do anything to deserve it.

Hmm, probably depends on the god, but there's a pretty good reason why Roy from Order of the Stick didn't become a cleric.

Vizzerdrix

2017-04-13, 10:02 PM

Lucubration. Involuntary Lubrication is horrifying too, but for different reasons.

Arent those from the BoEF?

I remember reading someplace that Tasha (from the spell Tashas Hideous Luaghter) is a demon queen or something like that. Dont remember where I saw that.

Keltest

2017-04-13, 10:27 PM

Hmm, probably depends on the god, but there's a pretty good reason why Roy from Order of the Stick didn't become a cleric.

the good and neutral gods tend to be fairly on the level, but you would struggle to find an evil god that is not both chronically stupid and cartoonishly evil. Picking fights amongst each other always ALWAYS causes some sort of cataclysm for themselves and the mortals (whom they need to care about) and not only do the evil gods do it anyway, but they act surprised when killing, say, the goddess of magic breaks magic.

atemu1234

2017-04-13, 10:58 PM

remetagross

2017-04-13, 11:03 PM

Yeah, she's better known as Iggwyl the Queen Sorceress.

Bucky

2017-04-13, 11:26 PM

Lucubration. Involuntary Lubrication is horrifying too, but for different reasons.

Involuntary Lubrication is presumably just a fancy name for Grease.

The Viscount

2017-04-14, 01:59 PM

Yeah, she's better known as Iggwyl the Queen Sorceress.

Honestly if my name was Iggwilv I'd go by a normal nickname like Tasha, too.

It's mentioned that one of our large sources of information on demons comes from the Demonomicon she wrote, but that she used Graz'zt as a source of information so some of it is likely false.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-14, 02:02 PM

It's mentioned that one of our large sources of information on demons comes from the Demonomicon she wrote, but that she used Graz'zt as a source of information so some of it is likely false.

I like to think that the Demonomicon indicates that Graz'zt is the handsomest and best-endowed demon there is. Which he might actually be, given the form of other demons.

How...How does one pronounce Iggwilv? Also, I think she used the name when undercover, but why she didn't keep with it is beyond me.

Gildedragon

2017-04-14, 02:05 PM

I like to think that the Demonomicon indicates that Graz'zt is the handsomest and best-endowed demon there is. Which he might actually be, given the form of other demons.

How...How does one pronounce Iggwilv? Also, I think she used the name when undercover, but why she didn't keep with it is beyond me.

Iggwilv is pronounced /taʃa/
It's a silent w dontcha know.

Someguy231

2017-04-14, 04:44 PM

In PHB 2 there are some sample Barbarian battle cries. One provided is "Blood for the Blood God!" which you will recognize from Warhammer40K.

Skulls for the Skull Throne?

Thurbane

2017-04-14, 04:58 PM

Arent those from the BoEF?

I remember reading someplace that Tasha (from the spell Tashas Hideous Luaghter) is a demon queen or something like that. Dont remember where I saw that.

I remember hearing Tasha (presumably short for Natasha) was one of the TSR team's daughters (or maybe granddaughter). You know how young children sometimes have the really annoying, uncontrollable laugh?

Sagetim

2017-04-14, 05:14 PM

Oh, don't forget that Halfings are the baseline core race from which all other races sprang in the long ago of the Dark Sun campaign setting. That's right, the hairy foot short people that most settings relegate to being rogues, thieves, or annoying kleptomaniacs in Dark Sun got their crap together in the ancient past and were the undisputed masters of their world. With no other humanoid species to contest that. Too bad they screwed that up by overusing the life-based magic of their world, causing it to revert from a wonderful oceanic and planty world to the horrible desert where Pelor The Burning Hate secretly stares down upon them from his hidden throne within that world's sun.

Oh, and did I mention that it has no way out? The Crystal Sphere that Dark Sun is in is sealed. There's no way to spelljammer your way out. Technically you might be able to escape if you could find a way to hurl yourself into the center of the sun and use what Might be a gate to the plane of fire there to get out into the elemental plane of fire and go from there....but most likely you're just kind of stuck on Athas.

Oh, and there's a high level druid and wizard spell that lets you create a tree that has a really hard time dying....that is also a powerful magic item in it's own right. Seriously, these trees can grant the people who touch them the ability to cast a handful of cleric spells. Just, it doesn't care what class you are or anything, you get a specific set of cleric spells including, if I recall right, Heal, and Divination. Like, staring into a pool of water to see distant locations and stuff. Good luck finding water by the way.

Did we mention that Athas is looked over by the Burning Hate that is it's sun? Let's reiterate that. It's so hot on Athas, How hot is it?, It's so hot that wearing metal is a surefire way to cook yourself in your armor. Which, by the way, would have been the most expensive thing to get, ever, because metal is so rare. Metal weapons and armor for your adventurer? No no no, more likely Bone, Chitin, and Maybe, if you're lucky or rich, possibly wood?

Oh, and the setting is so hard core that ADND started you at minimum character level of 3 there. If you didn't start at 3, you didn't survive to adulthood.

Gildedragon

2017-04-14, 05:34 PM

There's actually at least 4 ways out of Athas that don't involve tossing oneself into the sun.

A door to and from Sigil (cause as if a sealed sphere will stop tLoP)
Getting into the infinite staircase
Getting into the World Serpent Inn
Wandering off into the deep Shadow

Rijan_Sai

2017-04-14, 05:35 PM

Elves cause cancer! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNrLMob39qI)

Wait... what do you mean "that's not canon?" Elvin lies and propaganda!

Zombulian

2017-04-14, 06:01 PM

But they can't enter Eunuch Warlock! That's a terrible tradeoff.
Ignoring the obvious sarcasm.
Only if the character is a Mystic Ranger with SotAO and is ignoring the Dragon Magazine errata.

Bohandas

2017-04-15, 12:48 AM

Svata

2017-04-15, 12:57 AM

Teleport Effects are limited to within a plane. You're thinking of Greater Plane Shift. Which I'm not too familiar with Athas, so I'm not sure if that works either. Maybe Gate would, too.

Inevitability

2017-04-15, 01:43 AM

Some gith also once managed to reach Athas from another plane. Upon realizing it was a horrible place, they sealed off all entryways they could find.

GilesTheCleric

2017-04-15, 02:58 AM

In 2e, there were some spells that might have been able to do the trick. Proctiv’s Breach Crystal Sphere and Proctiv’s Seal Crystal Sphere. They're 11th-level spells, though, so you'd have to either Teleport Through Time back to when Mystryl was around/ before Karsus, or use them under the auspices of a different willing deity/ different magic system. That said, I don't know how those spells would interact with the gray fog that surrounds Dark Sun. Afroakuma might know.

Edit: Breach Crystal Sphere says:
The sealing of a sphere prevented spelljamming vessels from
entering its space. Only through planar travel, teleportation
magic, or other mystical means could one gain entry to a crystal
sphere sealed by this spell.

So whether you could get into Dark Sun probably depends on the mechanics of the gray mist, which I don't remember as being particularly permissive.

ShurikVch

2017-04-15, 07:41 AM

Honestly if my name was Iggwilv I'd go by a normal nickname like Tasha, too.Her name is Natasha; Tasha is pseudonym; Iggwilv (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iggwilv) is her regnal name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnal_name) - in 481 - 491 CY she was the Queen of Perrenland
(Also, she's stepdaughter of Baba Yaga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)))

They didn't act in a manner deserving worship, and relied on the wall of the faithless as the most horrible stick to force people to choose one of them over being obliterated painfully, and then when that stick was no longer there they cried and moaned and somehow managed to force the god of death to change alignment to lawful neutral instead of realizing that maybe they should do their damn jobs properly.The problem is: if the afterlife don't depends on religion, then why the heck to believe in anything at all? (Also, made-up cults - such as Unseeing Eye)
If Evil powers can just strong-arm mortals to worship them, but what's Good deities should do?
After the Time of Troubles Ao made deity's power to depend on worshipers: Gargoth was forced to pretend being Astaroth until reformed the cult which he usurped; Sseth's power base was stolen by Set; Bhaal lost almost all power when Bane killed all assassins of Faerûn
Thus, Ao is the primary guilty party there; not caring about mortals is bad, but the Wall, apparently, is completely OK :smallmad:

but they act surprised when killing, say, the goddess of magic breaks magicWhat's you mean?
Mystryl committed suicide because of Karsus, Mystra was killed because Helm was Lawful Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid), and Midnight (AFAIC) is still alive
Also, when Ibrandul, a lesser god of caverns, was destroyed, it doesn't caused collapse of Underdark; so, why killing the goddess of magic should "break magic"? :smallconfused:

Keltest

2017-04-15, 08:50 AM

The problem is: if the afterlife don't depends on religion, then why the heck to believe in anything at all? (Also, made-up cults - such as Unseeing Eye)
If Evil powers can just strong-arm mortals to worship them, but what's Good deities should do?
After the Time of Troubles Ao made deity's power to depend on worshipers: Gargoth was forced to pretend being Astaroth until reformed the cult which he usurped; Sseth's power base was stolen by Set; Bhaal lost almost all power when Bane killed all assassins of Faerûn
Thus, Ao is the primary guilty party there; not caring about mortals is bad, but the Wall, apparently, is completely OK :smallmad:

The afterlife does depend on religion. Normally you go to the afterlife of whoever your deity is. The faithless go to the wall, and the False, who only pay lip service, go get to do manual labor for the god of the dead for the rest of always

What's you mean?
Mystryl committed suicide because of Karsus, Mystra was killed because Helm was Lawful Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid), and Midnight (AFAIC) is still alive
Also, when Ibrandul, a lesser god of caverns, was destroyed, it doesn't caused collapse of Underdark; so, why killing the goddess of magic should "break magic"? :smallconfused:

Remember the Spellplague?

Anyway, the magic bit was just an example. Forgotten Realms is full of stories of deities messing with other deities to the point where their profiles go out of control. Theres one where Lathander tries to combine Tymora and Beshaba back into Tyche, and everyone's luck, good and bad, goes wildly out of control.

Bohandas

2017-04-15, 09:07 AM

Teleport Effects are limited to within a plane.

Given unlimited range you should be able to teleport between crystal spheres (although spelljammer's crystal spheres weren't given much support in 3e)

ShurikVch

2017-04-15, 09:22 AM

The afterlife does depend on religion. Normally you go to the afterlife of whoever your deity is. The faithless go to the wall, and the False, who only pay lip service, go get to do manual labor for the god of the dead for the rest of alwaysAnd what's about those people who's mental state prevent them from being religious, who worshiping dead or made-up deities, can't decide which deity to worship, never thought about it, just don't care about religion, or actively hate any powers and deny them all on general principle?

Remember the Spellplague?AFAIC - no such thing happened
But if you insisting about it - then it was All According to Plan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllAccordingToPlan?from=Main.JustAsPlanned) - Shar is an apocalyptic deity who want to destroy everything

Keltest

2017-04-15, 10:10 AM

And what's about those people who's mental state prevent them from being religious, who worshiping dead or made-up deities, can't decide which deity to worship, never thought about it, just don't care about religion, or actively hate any powers and deny them all on general principle?

Then it sucks to be them, for the most part. The Wall of the Faithless isn't completely common knowledge, but its not totally unheard of either. Plus, Faerun has so many different gods that finding the patron of whatever it is you do for a living isn't a difficult task either.

Madmen are more of a case by case basis. "Cyric happened" is generally considered a good enough excuse to keep them off the Wall, at least. Worshiping a dead deity will either stick you with whoever replaced them or count you as one of the Faithless, depending on the deity in question.

Bronk

2017-04-15, 01:09 PM

Given unlimited range you should be able to teleport between crystal spheres (although spelljammer's crystal spheres weren't given much support in 3e)

The main feature of the Phlogiston between the spheres is that it prevents teleportation and planar travel of all kinds. To get from the outside of one sphere to the outside of another sphere you need a spelljammer ship to travel the flow the long way.

The Viscount

2017-04-18, 06:16 PM

Eternal Blade is an Elf-only PrC that gives you a blade guide, a floating ball of light that gives you assistance and tells you what to do. The art shows a sword and shield warrior in green.
http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/f/1284488731/Eternal%20Blade.PNG
So it's Link, right? Is it just me reading into that?

Zombulian

2017-04-18, 07:18 PM

Thurbane

2017-04-18, 10:40 PM

I really didn't like some of the artwork in ToB, especially the guy who's art looked like leftover 90s Microsoft Clip Art (i.e. the guy who did the Eternal Blade and Crusader, among others).

http://i68.tinypic.com/2v13jau.jpghttp://i67.tinypic.com/2818w0.jpghttp://i66.tinypic.com/2928l1c.jpg

ATHATH

2017-04-18, 10:47 PM

Wait... That's actual art from the ToB?

Thurbane

2017-04-18, 10:52 PM

Wait... That's actual art from the ToB?

No, just me taking the ****. :smalltongue:

Here's some real examples (the Crusader in particular):

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99659.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99664.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/tob_gallery/99656.jpg

atemu1234

2017-04-18, 11:02 PM

There's a reason the book is colloquially called The Book of W***** Fightan Magic

I still have absolutely no ****ing clue why that's tagged as a slur.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-18, 11:06 PM

Sagetim

2017-04-18, 11:10 PM

There's a reason the book is colloquially called The Book of W***** Fightan Magic

Oh, good, you censored it. I got a warning the last time I referred to the book by that name on this forum without, you know, the *'s.

So, Binders are a class that uses the magical power of precision drawing on the ground to get in contact with beings that are not-dead. They aren't undead, they aren't dead. They are removed from existence. The funny bit is how many of them are references to old editions and stuff that happened within them. Like Tenebros (the divine aspect of orcus that got killed or something), Acecerak (the Demi lich behind the Tomb of Horrors), Amon (which seems to be a reference to what happened to Amanuator in Baldur's Gate 2), and Karsus (only wizard to hit level 44 or higher in Netheril's age of magic, tried to become the god of magic and that...didn't work out). I'm not sure if Zagan is also a reference, but he's a lizardfolk that was going to become a god, but right at the last moment thought that killing all his followers would be what would catapult him over the edge and into godhood...it, rather did the opposite. And then there's Dahlver-Nar, who just seems to be some kind of horrifying tooth fetishist or something. I dunno, he has teeth for eyes and looks like he belongs in a Hellraiser movie. The thing about Vestiges is that they are Not. Not dead, not living, not in any kind of afterlife or state of being. This is why they are a) really hard to have a conversation with, and b) willing to form pacts with Binders to ride around experiencing even just the dregs of sensations in exchange for supernatural powers.

Oh, and the churches and spellcasters tend to hate them because Binding magic has a super low floor for making it work. You don't need to be extroidinary in any way, just draw the right shape on the ground/floor/wall and say some words. Even a drunk can do it. No wonder they have witch hunts to kill these people, the commoners might get wind of magic that even their illiterate selves can use.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-18, 11:20 PM

Amon, which seems to be a reference to what happened to Amanuator in Baldur's Gate 2...

Actually, I think this one is derived from smooshing together a bunch of Ancient Egyptian deities, such as Amun, and his goat-headed Ku****e counterpart, and Ra, who he was often conflated with. He briefly got overthrown with the Aten heresy, but that didn't really stick. Still, as a not-oft remembered god of light and law, well...

Amaunator's lore was established outside of Baldur's Gate, and since Amauntaor got better in 4e, either someone went off the rails or they were planning that all along (since there were hints since I think 2e that he was Lathander or Lathander was him).

Or maybe both, depending on which writer you ask.

Thurbane

2017-04-19, 12:07 AM

I dunno, I actually really like that artwork. Perhaps the design? The boob plate is a mite silly, but you rarely get to see muscular women with short hair cuts like that, as opposed to someone looking like they bought their armor to match their purse. But maybe I am biased!

I had never even noticed that was supposed to be a woman before. I guess I was too distracted by the mace that looks like a light-bulb, the odd "turtle shell" style shield slung on the back and the weird "miniature arm" perspective effect.

Each to their own of course - I love Wayne Reynolds' art, for instance, but a lot of other people can't stand it.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-19, 12:13 AM

I had never even noticed that was supposed to be a woman before. I guess I was too distracted by the mace that looks like a light-bulb, the odd "turtle shell" style shield slung on the back and the weird "miniature arm" perspective effect.

You must either really hate that art style, or she's not your type to miss the breastplate that certainly lives up to its name.

Svata

2017-04-19, 12:18 AM

To be fair it is a little hard to tell if woman or just really Liefeldian.

Thurbane

2017-04-19, 12:34 AM

You must either really hate that art style, or she's not your type to miss the breastplate that certainly lives up to its name.

It seems quite obvious now you've pointed it out.

I believe I just don't think that art style meshes well with most other D&D book art.

To be fair it is a little hard to tell if woman or just really Liefeldian.

I think you nailed it! :smalltongue:

http://i65.tinypic.com/24lorpi.jpg

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-19, 12:37 AM

I believe I just don't think that art style meshes well with most other D&D book art.

No, that's a pretty valid complaint. Some of the DnD art is quite pretty, but is weird sitting next to more typical examples.

http://i65.tinypic.com/24lorpi.jpg

Eh, not as pretty as the other one. Captain America is just not my type of gal.

Particle_Man

2017-04-19, 02:18 AM

Oh, and the churches and spellcasters tend to hate them because Binding magic has a super low floor for making it work. You don't need to be extroidinary in any way, just draw the right shape on the ground/floor/wall and say some words. Even a drunk can do it. No wonder they have witch hunts to kill these people, the commoners might get wind of magic that even their illiterate selves can use.

It was recently pointed out to me that in 3.5, all adult commoners can read. They are one up on barbarians in that respect.

Venger

2017-04-19, 02:35 AM

It was recently pointed out to me that in 3.5, all adult commoners can read. They are one up on barbarians in that respect.

You're welcome.

It actually goes beyond that.

While in 3.5, only adults with at least 1 class level have statblocks, the language surrounding literacy is actually far more ridiculous than that.

All creatures can automatically read and write any language that they speak.

Except barbarians.

This is true even if you're a level 0 commoner. Or a level 0 barbarian.

Barbarians haven't just never learned how to read. Due to the starting age of nearly all playable races (aside from warforged, I don't think anyone else can play straight out of the womb) they have actively forgotten how to read by virtue of taking levels in barbarian.

(also totemist)

But if a barbarian/totemist took levels in the truly abysmal totem rager class, which is a kind of totemist/barbarian theurge, in addition to its other powers, he would remember how to read and write.

ben-zayb

2017-04-19, 03:58 AM

What I find the most jarring about those ToB images is that they had the gall to put an archer there (Yes, there's a sheathed sword, but that isn't really the highlight, is it?).

Pronounceable

2017-04-19, 04:32 AM

All creatures can automatically read and write any language that they speak.
So anything that can speak automatically gains the ability to manipulate tiny objects to a very advanced level. That'll certainly come in handy for various critters without limbs or digits.

Inevitability

2017-04-19, 06:20 AM

So anything that can speak automatically gains the ability to manipulate tiny objects to a very advanced level. That'll certainly come in handy for various critters without limbs or digits.

Write does not necessarily mean write with pen and paper. Stomping words into the ground counts.

Honest Tiefling

2017-04-19, 12:59 PM

What I find the most jarring about those ToB images is that they had the gall to put an archer there (Yes, there's a sheathed sword, but that isn't really the highlight, is it?).

Considering how inaccurate a lot of the art is, I'm surprised that the unarmed swordsage isn't blue for some reason.

Telonius

2017-04-19, 02:03 PM

Considering how inaccurate a lot of the art is, I'm surprised that the unarmed swordsage isn't blue for some reason.

I think they had one, but an intern put it in the "Incarnum" pile.

noob

2017-04-19, 02:11 PM

There is a need for a prc for doing both incarnum and the sublime ways together.
I guess someone have found it somewhere in dnd 3.5 lore.

Dagroth

2017-04-19, 03:12 PM

There is a need for a prc for doing both incarnum and the sublime ways together.
I guess someone have found it somewhere in dnd 3.5 lore.

Doesn't exist, but I'd imagine there could be two...

Incarnate/Devoted Spirit & Totemist/Tiger Claw

It would take someone with a lot more Incarnum-Fu than I have to create such a thing.

The Viscount

2017-04-20, 12:04 PM

There is a need for a prc for doing both incarnum and the sublime ways together.
I guess someone have found it somewhere in dnd 3.5 lore.
Well since both are fairly tolerant to dips and splashes, mutliclassing with the two can produce some pretty good results. I've made an Incarnate/Crusader or two for Iron Chef and they are exceptionally hard to kill.

I had never even noticed that was supposed to be a woman before. I guess I was too distracted by the mace that looks like a light-bulb, the odd "turtle shell" style shield slung on the back and the weird "miniature arm" perspective effect.

Each to their own of course - I love Wayne Reynolds' art, for instance, but a lot of other people can't stand it.

Is that what her shield is? I always thought it was some weird back crest-axe thing, but that makes more sense. A lot of people don't realize that Crusader is a woman, the distortion with her arm makes it difficult to tell how much her breastplate is protruding.

What I find the most jarring about those ToB images is that they had the gall to put an archer there (Yes, there's a sheathed sword, but that isn't really the highlight, is it?).
For bonus fun, swordsages aren't even proficient with the bow. I looked at the statblock to make sure there wasn't something I was missing, but they didn't even have him spend a feat on it. They either assumed that half-elves have the elven weapon proficiency (they don't) or forgot about the weapon restriction.

Rijan_Sai

2017-04-20, 03:01 PM

Is that what her shield is? I always thought it was some weird back crest-axe thing, but that makes more sense. A lot of people don't realize that Crusader is a woman, the distortion with her arm makes it difficult to tell how much her breastplate is protruding.

Funny, I never had any problems telling that was a woman...

The Shadowcraft Mage, on the other hand...

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/2/22/Shadowcraft_mage.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141229004510
Bardal Silverwhisper the Shadowcraft Mage: Male
gnome sorcerer 8/shadowcraft mage 2

Dagroth

2017-04-20, 04:28 PM

Funny, I never had any problems telling that was a woman...

The Shadowcraft Mage, on the other hand...

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/2/22/Shadowcraft_mage.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141229004510
Bardal Silverwhisper the Shadowcraft Mage: Male
gnome sorcerer 8/shadowcraft mage 2

Welll... maybe it's like Dwarves. Dwarven women have beards, Gnomish men have breasts.

Gildedragon

2017-04-20, 04:38 PM

Funny, I never had any problems telling that was a woman...

The Shadowcraft Mage, on the other hand...

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dungeonsdragons/images/2/22/Shadowcraft_mage.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141229004510
Bardal Silverwhisper the Shadowcraft Mage: Male
gnome sorcerer 8/shadowcraft mage 2

curses that change sex exist in dndverse. Bardal just put the wrong belt on.
That or the Illustrator/luck put him in a female body, but his true gender is male.

Particle_Man

2017-04-20, 05:10 PM

There is a need for a prc for doing both incarnum and the sublime ways together.
I guess someone have found it somewhere in dnd 3.5 lore.

Amethyst Knight Vindicator Hierarch of Wee Jas and Incarnum?

Gildedragon

2017-04-20, 06:05 PM

Amethyst Knight Vindicator Hierarch of Wee Jas and Incarnum?
Sapphire Knight of Bahamut or Ghost-Shrouded <something> or <something> chakra
chakra warrior

The Viscount

2017-04-24, 08:15 PM

There are two people in the PHB who are not presented as associated with any classes.
On page 105 we have Devis.
On page 110 we have a figure named Nerull, spelled exactly the same as the evil death deity.

We know from page 112 of Complete Mage that Devis is a bard, because he can cast Otto's Imperative Ambulation.

However, I have never seen any art of this Nerull character anywhere else, and there's no information to suggest that this is the form that the deity Nerull typically appears as.

Fiendish Codex I page 94 has art with the label "Mialee casts Embrace the Dark Chaos on a half-orc." We can see from the art that this is not any half-orc, but is in fact Krusk. Despite the art making it look like they're fighting, Mialee is then using the feat for its intended use: Giving your teammates an abyssal feat so you can then cast shun the dark chaos to shuffle. The hints were there the whole time!