Introspection about a character class of myself (swashbuckler+skald(+OotA-paladin?))

[Arkhios]

My better half suddenly said that she'd been recently thinking that if I had a D&D class, it'd be Bard. Honestly, I had been thinking I would be a Swashbuckler more likely as I used to be a fencer (yes, this post was partially sparked by the thread about building a better fencer). Then I came to wonder that why couldn't I be a little bit of both? I mean, there's quite a bit of synergy between bards and Swashbucklers, both benefiting from high Charisma and multiclassing requirements would be met no sweat.

In addition, I'm a huge Viking/Celtic lore enthusiast so that'd probably set my Bardic College as Valor (Skald!), and I consider myself being more of a warrior type anyway.

And I hold up high morals and generally strive to be a good person (although, admittedly sometimes I cross the line with my short temper; my apologies to anyone who has felt the sting first-hand) which is probably why I usually prefer paladin over fighter, for example. So, I might have a dash of Paladin too. Maybe Oath of the Ancients due to my fondness for all things natural.

That said, how would you build an optimal character with the above parameters?

Race would have to be either V.Human or default Half-elf, for the additional skills.

I would think that probable/best stats derived from myself would be as follows (before racials):

Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 8 (hello there, short temper! :smallbiggrin:), Cha 14

As variant human: +1 dex, +1 (any) + bonus feat, depending on the build and a possible str 13 requirement for paladin.

As half-elf: +1 dex, +1 con, +2 cha, w/o paladin

[blurneko]

A class doesn't define your character. Your personality and actions in-game do. A class is simply an abstract concept to deliver mechanical rules to the game and players. You could be a wizard and still be a swashbuckler, could be a warlock and still keep your ideals, even barbarians can be fencers and just call rage "focus".

What I'm trying to say is, do not recommend to try to fit class archetypes to your personality. Just choose based on the mechanical values of the class. More levels in Bard means more spell slots, more levels in Rogue means you have better sneak attacks.

Anyway, your stats are fine which are good for what you want to be. If you want paladin human, you also have the option of Regular Human for a small bump to all your stats.

[Specter]

Valor Bard 10/Paladin 6/Swashbuckler 4
I believe that gives you the best of each class without losing too much.

[Arkhios]

A class doesn't define your character. Your personality and actions in-game do. A class is simply an abstract concept to deliver mechanical rules to the game and players. You could be a wizard and still be a swashbuckler, could be a warlock and still keep your ideals, even barbarians can be fencers and just call rage "focus".

What I'm trying to say is, do not recommend to try to fit class archetypes to your personality. Just choose based on the mechanical values of the class. More levels in Bard means more spell slots, more levels in Rogue means you have better sneak attacks.

Anyway, your stats are fine which are good for what you want to be. If you want paladin human, you also have the option of Regular Human for a small bump to all your stats.

True enough, and I'm aware of that class doesn't define character. However, I'm no stranger to playing out of the ordinary characters. I do consider classes as merely means to an end.


Valor Bard 10/Paladin 6/Swashbuckler 4
I believe that gives you the best of each class without losing too much.

That might be it, though I'm kinda curious about seeing Panache in play. On paper, at least, It's probably one of the better ways to "taunt", which would work seemingly well with the Rakish Audacity letting a swashbuckler use sneak attack while alone against a creature by taunting them to engage me instead while I'm within reasonable range from my companions. Because Aura of Protection is such a great ability, I can't help but wonder if I should take more than 5 levels of Valor bard, since otherwise the extra attack from paladin would go to waste.

I believe that Font of Inspiration at 5th bard level might be enough from Bard, in addition to granting bonus AC to my companions via Combat Inspiration. I don't see myself as much of a caster really (which is part of the reason why I initially considered myself more like a swashbuckler than bard), so if I chose to take paladin into the equation, it would probably be only for the smites - and the aura. My Fighting style would be Defense, because my fencing background would "require" me to wield a rapier and a dagger (thus, taking Dual Wielder at some point is mandatory; likely as the 1st level feat)

I was thinking of the following change to Specter's suggestion:

Swashbuckler 9/Valor Bard 5/Paladin 6 (not neccessarily in that order, but I'd start with rogue for dex saves and 4+ skills from the get-go, and probably take at least 5 levels in paladin for the Extra Attack as soon as possible; which would be at 6th character level - same as Valor Bard would get it, if I started with it). I know that with the Wis 8, my saves in that regard would suck for a long time until I get the aura, but I don't think that's really a huge problem with the bounded accuracy and that generally the save DC's won't go higher than 19.

I think the stats could be changed to Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14 to make the paladin multiclass possible by RAW. (I generally don't like the idea of bending the RAW when it would be only for personal gain, but there are exceptions, which I won't be discussing here).

I was thinking that Sailor (Pirate) background would be fitting for the character, for a couple of reasons. I served my military service in the marines, and although I wasn't on the sea much, I have noticed that I'm most at peace while I'm by the sea. Secondly, if the character is to take any resemblance from the vikings, that's one reason to consider that sailing was, at least at some point, an important part of the character's background, and since going viking is essentially to be a pirate, that's another point towards the (variant) background choice. Becoming a Paladin would also serve as a character growth from a seafaring scoundrel to a more righteous person. (I used to be quite the rascal in my early years, and I still am a bit playful by nature!)

[djreynolds]

TWF or PAM are 2 great ways to take advantage of improved divine smite, 3 attacks all with an extra 1d8 radiant damage

So paladin 11 looks sweet. And though I like the OoA, I think a marauding paladin of vengeance seems more Viking like.

Paladin 11/ swashbuckler 9.... I mean with expertise in persuasion and history, you make for very inspiring skald and leader.

Improved divine smite, 4 skills expertise.. acrobatics, athletics, persuasion and I like history, and panache

[Arkhios]

TWF or PAM are 2 great ways to take advantage of improved divine smite, 3 attacks all with an extra 1d8 radiant damage

So paladin 11 looks sweet. And though I like the OoA, I think a marauding paladin of vengeance seems more Viking like.
The paladin part isn't really that essential for the concept, I could just as well drop it, and go Swasbuckler 14/Bard 6 for 6 expertises, and Reliable Talent with a ton of skill proficiencies, and with jack of all trades, even the skills I'm not proficient with would be quite decent.
Besides, the idea is to be a good person, which a marauding paladin of vengeance doesn't really seem to be. Background can be just that, a background. Something you've been once, but not anymore. The character might have origins as being a viking, but for some reason he took a 180 degrees turn in his life, and now aspires to be something better.


Paladin 11/ swashbuckler 9.... I mean with expertise in persuasion and history, you make for very inspiring skald and leader.

Improved divine smite, 4 skills expertise.. acrobatics, athletics, persuasion and I like history, and panache
Sure, although that drops the idea of being a Bard completely. While I agree that you could be a skald without being a Bard, I kinda like the Bard's class features too. And as above, being a paladin is not the main goal. Paladin 11 is quite against that thought. I'd say that I'd much preferably have a combined level of Swashbuckler/Bard be higher than the total paladin level.

[djreynolds]

The paladin part isn't really that essential for the concept, I could just as well drop it, and go Swasbuckler 14/Bard 6 for 6 expertises, and Reliable Talent with a ton of skill proficiencies, and with jack of all trades, even the skills I'm not proficient with would be quite decent.
Besides, the idea is to be a good person, which a marauding paladin of vengeance doesn't really seem to be. Background can be just that, a background. Something you've been once, but not anymore. The character might have origins as being a viking, but for some reason he took a 180 degrees turn in his life, and now aspires to be something better.


Sure, although that drops the idea of being a Bard completely. While I agree that you could be a skald without being a Bard, I kinda like the Bard's class features too. And as above, being a paladin is not the main goal. Paladin 11 is quite against that thought. I'd say that I'd much preferably have a combined level of Swashbuckler/Bard be higher than the total paladin level.

Well aside from the mechanical aspect of paladin and smiting and aura of protection and paladin/charisma spell casting... what else is paladin giving you?

What about barbarian and Storm herald?

Or even ranger, which I like because it is more akin to us mortals

[Arkhios]

Well aside from the mechanical aspect of paladin and smiting and aura of protection and paladin/charisma spell casting... what else is paladin giving you?
It's mostly due to the class flavor, and that I really could see making an oath that would give me additional guidelines and mechanical reasons to how to play the character, although I'm aware (why am I repeating myself here?) paladin is not necessary part. At all.


What about barbarian and Storm herald?

Or even ranger, which I like because it is more akin to us mortals

This is where I could just as well throw the original post and the original reason for the character out of the window. Sorry for being blunt, but not thanks. I think you might be clinging a bit too much on the viking part. It's only a small part of the whole.

[djreynolds]

It's mostly due to the class flavor, and that I really could see making an oath that would give me additional guidelines and mechanical reasons to how to play the character, although I'm aware (why am I repeating myself here?) paladin is not necessary part. At all.



This is where I could just as well throw the original post and the original reason for the character out of the window. Sorry for being blunt, but not thanks. I think you might be clinging a bit too much on the viking part. It's only a small part of the whole.

I like the barbarian class, it has a lot of flavor.

My old samurai was based on the barbarian wolf totem chassis, and rage and reckless attack was re-fluffed as Bushido.

I see a fencer as a guy who has lots of muscle and dex, 14-16 and 18-20, I mean, fencers train, they hit road and the weights and the push ups and pull ups.

I like the idea of refluffing rage, "my comrades are in danger" kinda of zeal.

We have in our party a dex based barbarian/ bard and it is really cool. Is it optimized, they have 14 in strength and an 18 in dex and 14 in con and 16 in charisma? It is very warrior/poet though.

Barb, swashbuckler, refluffed barbarian has lots of appeal to me, when you need it rage is there.

I think since it is model after you perhaps it should show the progression of yourself.

Did you fence as a kid or an adult?
We're you a dreamer type bard before that, started studying fencing. Perhaps you were a young idealist first, hence paladin and then later on you got an appreciation of nature, went back to bard and then picked up oath of ancients.

It's cool. Cooler than I am, I feel like a fighter who doesn't meet the requisites to multiclass out.

[Arkhios]

If I made as accurate picture of myself as possible, it would be mad as hell.

As a kid, I used to practice Judo, so I guess I'd start as a monk (and/or have the Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats?)

Then, after a long while, I started fencing, so I suppose swashbuckler would be next.

In my military service I was MP (military police), so I guess a Paladin would be next.

After military service I graduated from career school as a security-supervisor and my studies included Hokutoryu Jiujitsu (monk again?)

I've only recently started serious dungeonmastering, a.k.a. story telling, so I suppose that would be bard.

In the end I'd need str 13, dex 13, wis 13, and cha 13 at minimum! (Which isn't impossible with point buy, just slightly difficult)

Standard human:
14, 16, 12, 9, 14, 14 (5+9+3+0+5+5)

Maybe 5 or so levels each?

[djreynolds]

If I made as accurate picture of myself as possible, it would be mad as hell.

As a kid, I used to practice Judo, so I guess I'd start as a monk (and/or have the Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats?)

Then, after a long while, I started fencing, so I suppose swashbuckler would be next.

In my military service I was MP (military police), so I guess a Paladin would be next.

After military service I graduated from career school as a security-supervisor and my studies included Hokutoryu Jiujitsu (monk again?)

I've only recently started serious dungeonmastering, a.k.a. story telling, so I suppose that would be bard.

In the end I'd need str 13, dex 13, wis 13, and cha 13 at minimum! (Which isn't impossible with point buy, just slightly difficult)

Standard human:
14, 16, 12, 9, 14, 14 (5+9+3+0+5+5)

Maybe 5 or so levels each?

This is cool

I'm unsure how long you've played, but in OLD 1E they had how much you could military press over your head associated with a strength score... needless to say in highschool we weren't the strongest warriors, but we used to model our stats off stuff like this. If you never missed school you had a high constitution, did well on test for int, good at throwing and hitting a baseball was high dex, good with the girls was high charisma (that may have lower than our strength scores) and we had going to church for wisdom

I honestly because Judo doesn't involve all the strikes a Kung Fu or Karate does, this could be considered to be a grappler and bard or rogue would be appropriate with expertise in Athletics, so rogue

I like really like the idea of trying to see in society what a paladin would be, and I always comeback to police and firefighters and FBI law enforcement types, and paladin

Any schooling, college could definitely mean bard... and bard

I think you have it. Rogue, paladin, bard

[Arkhios]

This is cool

I'm unsure how long you've played, but in OLD 1E they had how much you could military press over your head associated with a strength score... needless to say in highschool we weren't the strongest warriors, but we used to model our stats off stuff like this. If you never missed school you had a high constitution, did well on test for int, good at throwing and hitting a baseball was high dex, good with the girls was high charisma (that may have lower than our strength scores) and we had going to church for wisdom

I honestly because Judo doesn't involve all the strikes a Kung Fu or Karate does, this could be considered to be a grappler and bard or rogue would be appropriate with expertise in Athletics, so rogue

I like really like the idea of trying to see in society what a paladin would be, and I always comeback to police and firefighters and FBI law enforcement types, and paladin

Any schooling, college could definitely mean bard... and bard

I think you have it. Rogue, paladin, bard

We MP's had our fair share of physical exercise (climbing, grappling, rappeling, and all the gear we had to carry... jayzus that was heavy!); also, in time of peace, it's basically our duty to restrain a target by unarmed force, if they start acting up. Also, MP's practice the force of personality so that we know how to be convincingly persuasive or intimidating, if need be.

Actually, even Judo has it's own strikes, and all of them deadly if you do them right. (In sports, this is why they don't teach a Judoka most of the strikes, and those they do, they're taught not to deliver them through, for a good reason - you could shatter the sternum with a swift strike, for example.) So, even Judo could be seen as a monk training.

However, I was never among the best in regards to Judo and Jiujitsu. I know the basics well enough, but that's pretty much it, so while Monk could fit in, it could easily be emulated with Tavern Brawler and Grappler.

PS. oh, and I've played since the transition from 3.0 to 3.5. I got introduced to the game just before 3.5 was released.

[djreynolds]

Ogma from real mythos, not D&D, was god of great strength and learning. So bards can be brawns and brains, and wrestling could emulate judo.

I think if you twist judo into old world wrestling and grappling, then bard could fit in there along with representing college and higher learning

And rogue, swashbuckler and fencing go quite well together

And law enforcement and paladin, upholding ideals and oaths.

I have always found that it is tough to lump fighters and military together, as any PC could fill in a military role.

But military police and infantry have lots of training with lots of weapon systems and tactics, so battlemaster could be included in there.

Perhaps swashbuckler/battlemaster/OoD paladin or OoA paladin/ and maybe bard

You could go 4SW/4BM/6 paladin/ 6 bard, could be cool 4 ASI/feats (and perhaps since you are playing yourself you get a "bump up" in the standard array) or you know, "I rolled all 20s"

[Arkhios]

or you know, "I rolled all 20s"

Or, you know, it could be fun to play along with the weaknesses :smalltongue: Like wielding a longsword with strength 12, for example :smallbiggrin:

And I agree, military role could fit for any PC. not just fighter-y types. Although I'd say infantry and the like would more likely be Fighters. MP definitely Paladin. Special Forces could be Rangers and maybe even Rogues, depending on their focus.

[djreynolds]

Or, you know, it could be fun to play along with the weaknesses :smalltongue: Like wielding a longsword with strength 12, for example :smallbiggrin:

And I agree, military role could fit for any PC. not just fighter-y types. I'd say infantry and the like would more likely be Fighters. MP definitely Paladin. Special Forces could be Rangers and maybe Rogues, depending on their focus.

I think our strength scores in highschool, were definitely in the 12 range.... maybe

It is fun to play real stats

And it weird, but I see the champion fighter, or what I would like it to be, is a professional athlete .... not military at all, maybe a football player

And yes ranger/rogue definitely would be SF types

I don't know what barbarians would be.

But back to your concept, a little fighter, especially battlemaster, goes along way with dex based PCs and grab your TWF so you rapier and dagger/whip

[Citan]

My better half suddenly said that she'd been recently thinking that if I had a D&D class, it'd be Bard. Honestly, I had been thinking I would be a Swashbuckler more likely as I used to be a fencer (yes, this post was partially sparked by the thread about building a better fencer). Then I came to wonder that why couldn't I be a little bit of both? I mean, there's quite a bit of synergy between bards and Swashbucklers, both benefiting from high Charisma and multiclassing requirements would be met no sweat.

In addition, I'm a huge Viking/Celtic lore enthusiast so that'd probably set my Bardic College as Valor (Skald!), and I consider myself being more of a warrior type anyway.

And I hold up high morals and generally strive to be a good person (although, admittedly sometimes I cross the line with my short temper; my apologies to anyone who has felt the sting first-hand) which is probably why I usually prefer paladin over fighter, for example. So, I might have a dash of Paladin too. Maybe Oath of the Ancients due to my fondness for all things natural.

That said, how would you build an optimal character with the above parameters?

Race would have to be either V.Human or default Half-elf, for the additional skills.

I would think that probable/best stats derived from myself would be as follows (before racials):

Str 12, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 8 (hello there, short temper! :smallbiggrin:), Cha 14

As variant human: +1 dex, +1 (any) + bonus feat, depending on the build and a possible str 13 requirement for paladin.

As half-elf: +1 dex, +1 con, +2 cha, w/o paladin
Hmm...

I'd say you have many ways to go at this.
Without Paladin, I'd say the best split would be...
1. Valor Bard 15 / Swashbuckler Rogue 5 with Booming Blade cantrip as a Magic Secrets + possibly Warcaster (if it fits your fluff though): you can unleash two attacks a turn (thanks to Bard 14 feature), you get many great spells to use and Fancy Footwork + Uncanny Dodge for defense.
This is one very balanced build, between martial and magic.

2. Swashbuckler 14 / Valor Bard 6 with Expertise in Athletics: lvl 14 feature means you can bonus action get Advantage, then blow one of Bard's Extra Attack on Shove with quasi-certainty before attacking normally with Sneak Attack.
Not the easiest way, but the most classy for sure. XD
Works great with Panache because it means you put your opponent prone so there is little chance he will break the effect by moving more than 60 feet away from you.

3. Swashbuckler 11(12) / Valor Bard 9(8) with Shield Master: basically the same idea as before, locking your Panache enemy by Shoving him, but using Shield Master bonus action instead. We keep Swashbuckler 11 to get Reliable Talent. Less "strong" on the shoving part than the previous, but you get more (great) spellcasting.
If you don't care about Reliable Talent, going either 12/8 (more ASI for Sentinel for example) or 10/10 (same number of ASI but you get Magic Secrets for Haste, Circle of Power, Elemental Weapon etc).

If you put Paladin into it, well...
The most 1 VS 1 build you could ever make would probably be combining Panache and Compelled Duel with either the previous Shove tactic or Paladin Oath feature. Sentinel on top of that would be gravy.

a) "Relentless": Swashbuckler Rogue 9 / Vengeance Paladin 7 / Lore Bard 4:
you get more Expertise from Bard and a few utility/healing spells, but your main trick will be to Compelled Duel someone then use Panache and Vow on Enmity. Big deal here is action economy: taking one level of Bard and one level of Paladin to grab Action Surge and TWF style could be very well worth it because, provided your enemy is within normal speed range, you can set everything up in one turn (Panache > Compelled Duel > Vow of Enmity). :)

b) "Resilient": swap Vengeance with Ancients:
you won't get particular advantage on attack rolls, so you may want Shield Master. On the other hand, you get Aura of Warding and Ensnaring Strike. So you could try to launch a ranged attack on the first turn and Ensnare target while you close in, then resume the usual tactic.

c) "Honorable": Swashbuckler Rogue 9 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 5 (or Lore Bard 3 / Fighter 2).
Honestly I feel this may be the best for you, if you have high morals. Devotion feels right fluff, you are solely relying on Charisma, and you don't really have better stuff to concentrate on than Compelled Duel usually.
You wield sword and shield, and pride yourself in always putting up a fair 1 on 1 fight, enforcing your honor on your enemy thanks to Compelled Duel and Panache.
I would certainly recommend the "Fighter 2" option, possibly starting Fighter if you really want your Compelled Duel to Hold. This build is the most intense in action economy should you want to be the most prepared (Sacred Weapon -action- + Compelled Duel -action- + Panache -action- + Shove -bonus action-). But Sacred Weapon you can probably either set before when you know a fight is coming, or don't use since you should get advantage with Shove.

d) "Featful": Swashbuckler 11 / Crown Paladin 3 / Lore Bard 6
Idea here is to use Paladin's Channel Divinity instead of Compelled Duel, so you can use your concentration on any buff you seem useful (including Bard's Magic Secrets: Elemental Weapon, Haste, Mirror Image, etc).
Use ASI on
- Shield Master: shove as bonus action
- Sentinel: so he never moves away
- Dual Wielder (optional) (unless DM refuses to accept the shield as improvised weapon): +1 AC in addition to Shield bonus, and you can attack as a bonus action (even if to hit is lesser, and damage is ridiculous, it's another chance to land Sneak Attack)
- Tavern Brawler (optional): makes the S&B shield really competitive paired with DUal Wielder. ;)
- Defensive Duelist (optional):, can be an alternative to Uncanny Dodge (great, but you still take damage)
- Resilient: Constitution: if you want your buffs to stick (especially Haste).

e) "Devious": Swashbuckler 10 / Crown Paladin 3 / Lore Bard 7
Same as the previous one, except this time you can use Greater Invisibility. Will make most enemies cry: disadvantage against attacking others, can't move away from you, and most won't have any way of reliably hurting you (attacks at disadvantage since they can't see + Uncanny Dodge).

Hope these few ideas may be a source of inspiration. ;)