Low level Gestalt damage builds?

[JonathanPDX]

I recently joined a 4th level Gestalt Pathfinder group and I'm looking for some new character ideas. The party composition can change week to week so I want to have a backup plan, plus it's just fun to design new characters. The party always has a tank so I would like to focus more on pumping out damage than protecting everyone else.

I'm look for options to put out the most damage at 4th level, ideally without running out of steam or being a total glass cannon (unless the build is super cool!) I really like the Path of War books, though I'm open to other ideas. This group is pretty accepting of 3rd party material, and stats are rolled but the totals are pretty high so there's room to get ambitious.

Do any of you have suggestions or favorite builds that put out tons of damage at low levels? I understand the basic concepts of Gestalt character building but I haven't found the right way to put the pieces together for maximum damage output.

I'm intrigued by using the Warlord as a base with a strength focus and a two-handed weapon but I'm not sure if that can out-perform dex builds.
Or perhaps unarmed is the way to go, and the Warlord, UC Monk, or Mystic could all make a great base to build around, but what do you pair them with?
There are several ways to build around DEX (Stalker, rogue, ninja, etc.) but I don't see a combination that isn't missing something crucial (BAB, saves, HD, etc.)
Paladin / Bard seems like an obvious combination but even with a two-hander can it put out enough damage to rival POW classes?
I've heard that Magus / Swashbuckler works well, and it looks good on paper, but I've never tried it and I'm not sure how you avoid running out of Shocking Grasps after one combat.

All my ideas so far are melee, I don't have much experience with blasters so I don't know many tricks for dealing sustainable magic damage at low levels. I've always been a fan of psionics too but I'm more familiar with them as utility than straight damage enhancement.

Any builds or concepts you'd like to share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[rallas6]

Paladin // oracle have charisma going for them, this is also known as an Oradin.

Magus // Swashbuckler seems to have good and quite steady damage.

those two are played in a current gestal campaign im playing in.

[Peat]

Maybe gestalt Magus with Sorcerer or Wizard to get even more uses of Shocking Grasp (plus some bonuses to spell damage)? Not entirely sure that works with Gestalt.

I've always thought Paladin//Barbarian would be a fun gestalt for simple melee damage. Bloodrager or Skald would give it an even bigger kick in the tail.

At lower levels, a Natural Attack or Archery build might be the best way to go simply due to more attacks. Maybe a Zen Archer Monk with Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer - you're very SAD, the Zen Archer is a decent platform as is and you can use Gravity Bow and Arcane Strike to boost your archery even further.

[Long_shanks]

Take some classes that are known for their possible damage outpout, and shore up their weaknesses.

Inquisitor//Fighter: Full bab + all the feats of the fighter + the self-buff and the bane ability of the Inquisitor.

Barbarian//Alchemist: Basically the incredible hulk, with mutagen + rage + extracts. Fluff as you like.

Rogue//Slayer: Sneak attack galore (16d6 IIRC) + full bab

Paladin//Oracle: As mentioned before, the melee chassis of the Paladin, Charisma synergy and 9th level spells with acces to incredible buffs.

[Geddy2112]

Lots of good suggestions above.

Building on the zen archer monk, a zen archer/fighter, zen archer/ranger, or zen archer/slayer is going to be really nasty at low to mid levels, shooting a ton of arrows for a ton of damage.

Monk/inquisitor also works well for this with judgements.

Paladin/swashbuckler lets you do a dex/cha build paladin and has good damage.

[CharonsHelper]

Unchained Monk/Kineticist : Take the Kinetic Fist which adds elemental damage to all of your unarmed attacks and it quickly gets ridiculous.

Plus: d10 HD and all high saves! If you want to be ridiculous - make him a dwarf (kineticist benefits from Con, and monk from Wis - and eventually +5 saves vs spells is stupidly good - though you have to burn a trait and a feat to get that high)

Go with a Dex Monk build (my favorite anyway) as by level 4 you can grab a Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, and with the dex you'll have excellent AC (get a buddy to cast Mage Armor on you with a pearl of power)

With the Dex you'll be highly accurate with the Kineticist blasts, and unlike a normal Kineticist you have full BAB. So go with a physical element as your primary (normally the disadvantage to the higher damage is somewhat low accuracy).

[Fouredged Sword]

Maybe gestalt Magus with Sorcerer or Wizard to get even more uses of Shocking Grasp (plus some bonuses to spell damage)? Not entirely sure that works with Gestalt.

I've always thought Paladin//Barbarian would be a fun gestalt for simple melee damage. Bloodrager or Skald would give it an even bigger kick in the tail.

At lower levels, a Natural Attack or Archery build might be the best way to go simply due to more attacks. Maybe a Zen Archer Monk with Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer - you're very SAD, the Zen Archer is a decent platform as is and you can use Gravity Bow and Arcane Strike to boost your archery even further.

Magus // other caster doesn't take off until level 6 when you can take broad study to allow magus stuff with both spell pools.

[mistermysterio]

Warlord/Bloodrager would probably be pretty fun ;)

[Fouredged Sword]

Fighter // rogue going skulking slayer half orc sap master would have the feats to build his build pretty quick and start doing HDd8+HD damage with every hit and hit everything in range through cleave/greatcleave and surprise follow through.

[Florian]

A Suli Paladin//Magus (Eldritch Scion) is pretty brutal, as is a Suli Paladin//Bloodrager (Arcane) at this level.

[legomaster00156]

Rogue//Slayer: Sneak attack galore (16d6 IIRC) + full bab
Nope, the gestalt rules cover this. Only 10d6. You'd be better with Rogue/Investigator, which gets Sneak Attack and Studied Strike (in addition to being the ultimate skillmonkey).

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[Tuvarkz]

Regarding Strength vs Dex-to be honest, there's not much in the way of a significant enough difference. You can compensate for initiative, AC, and Dex through a variety of ways with initiators.
Warlord//Paladin is a really powerful combination, or with Warsighted Oracle. Mystic, I'd probably pair with Ranger or Soulknife.
For Dex and all the crucials covered, Warlord//Dread makes for a solid case, and so does Stalker//Slayer.
Regarding damage output, if the path of war initiator gets serious on it, nothing short of an optimized barbarian or smiting paladin will keep up, particularly with something like Gestalt where the initiator can just get a side that gives them passive bonuses to rack up his numbers.
Swashbuckler is always a bad pick. Poor action economy, and a terrible class overall. If Path of War is on play, there's literally no reason to not go Warlord instead.

[Long_shanks]

Nope, the gestalt rules cover this. Only 10d6. You'd be better with Rogue/Investigator, which gets Sneak Attack and Studied Strike (in addition to being the ultimate skillmonkey).

Ah, I always forget that one. To continue on your idea, wouldn't Slayer//Investigator (even if it looses a few dice of sneak attack) be better, as the class don't overlap as much (Full bab, 6+int skills, d10 hp, studied target and studied strike)?

[legomaster00156]

I would argue that other than both being skill monkeys in general, and having a similar roguish chassis, the Rogue and Investigator have enough differences to make gestalting them worth it. However, Slayer/Investigator would also be a great choice.

[CharonsHelper]

Swashbuckler is always a bad pick. Poor action economy, and a terrible class overall.

I'd disagree - especially for a gish.

Frankly - Swashbuckler is a stupidly good 1 level dip normally.

The big weakness of class the terrible saves (I've seen solid Swash builds with a 2 level paladin dip to make up for it) - besides that it's a pretty solid martial class. And some of the archetypes even help with the weak saves. (One trades Charmed Life for a boost vs mind-affecting which is very nice - and helps with the swift action overload.)

For a gish - just don't combine it with anything else which uses swift actions and you'll be fine, especially if you combine it with good fort/will saves.

[Snowbluff]

Synthesist Summoner//Vivisectionist Alchemist.

Synthesist provides bonus HP and stats, as well as extra attacks and pounce.

Vivisectionist gives sneak attack to go with those attacks.

At low levels you'll be kicking all kinds of butt. You're sturdy, and since you can't PEW PEW if you aren't alive, you're in good shape. Probably invest in 16 Int, but don't bother maxing out cha until you need more for spell access later.

You can pick up the dimensional agility featline as well, letting you flank for sneak attack.

[Tuvarkz]

I'd disagree - especially for a gish.

Frankly - Swashbuckler is a stupidly good 1 level dip normally.

The big weakness of class the terrible saves (I've seen solid Swash builds with a 2 level paladin dip to make up for it) - besides that it's a pretty solid martial class. And some of the archetypes even help with the weak saves. (One trades Charmed Life for a boost vs mind-affecting which is very nice - and helps with the swift action overload.)

For a gish - just don't combine it with anything else which uses swift actions and you'll be fine, especially if you combine it with good fort/will saves.

Level 1 for what, fairly limited weapon finesse? Parry and Riposte, which can be entirely wasted if the creature rolls low anyways, and gets increasingly worse against bigger enemies? Dodging Panache is not a gamechanger most of the fights, and Derring-do is likely to be useless later on (and a +3 isn't that significant on average, particularly because of how most of the listed skills work).

Yeah, swift actions, which either the paladin needs for smiting, warsighted oracle for his stuff, or initiators for initiating, with far stronger uses.

Swashbuckler will always be stuck as a Tier 5 class due to the fact that just dealing damage is all that it has for it.

[CharonsHelper]

Parry and Riposte,

Yes. That's the #1 reason it's a great dip. (Though the WF version they get is in many ways BETTER than normal as it works with ALL piercing weapons. Heck - if you go Swash 1/Phalanx Fighter 3 you can weapon finesse a polearm and get Dex to damage with Slashing Grace.)

Even against large foes it's not hard to parry most of them. It's only -2 per size, and they take a -1. And parry doesn't use up your swift action anyway - it's an AOO. Take combat reflexes with a Dex build and you get bunches. Once you have improved crit at 5 it's not an issue to keep them with critting on 15-20, especially if you take critical focus.

And Parry works against TOUCH ATTACKS. Which is amazing.

Plus there are a few swash only items which make them far better. Get several feathers for an extra panache each fight. Get the Swordmaster's Flairs (especially the blue scarf - though the red sash is pretty good too)

And of course it's tier 5. It's a martial. Every martial is tier 4-5. Combine it with an oracle or a sorcerer though as a gish and it becomes ridiculous.

[Peat]

The Synthesist//Vivisectionist idea is pretty gnarly.

[Tuvarkz]

Yes. That's the #1 reason it's a great dip. (Though the WF version they get is in many ways BETTER than normal as it works with ALL piercing weapons. Heck - if you go Swash 1/Phalanx Fighter 3 you can weapon finesse a polearm and get Dex to damage with Slashing Grace.)

Errata'd out. You need to have a shield to 1-hand the polearm and then Slashing Grace doesn't work. Of course, you could do Weapon Trick, but then you're trading what is at best a 2 damage per hit increase (1d10 nodachi vs 1d6 rapier) against a -2 penalty to attack rolls, totally inefficient.


Even against large foes it's not hard to parry most of them. It's only -2 per size, and they take a -1. And parry doesn't use up your swift action anyway - it's an AOO. Take combat reflexes with a Dex build and you get bunches. Once you have improved crit at 5 it's not an issue to keep them with critting on 15-20, especially if you take critical focus.

And Parry works against TOUCH ATTACKS. Which is amazing.

Not really, your AC should roughly be 8-10 points higher than your attack roll until later levels unless you're absolutely dumping it-this means you're running 50% at best chances of getting it to happen against medium enemies, less if you're power attacking or piranha striking. And then you're either facing huge enemies or larger, or spellcasters. (Given that humanoid melee enemies are mostly irrelevant then given how fragile they tend to end up being) And you shouldn't be worrying against melee touch attacks most of the time, ranged stuff is where the danger's at-particularly because 99% of the time, an enemy that tries a touch attack against you is ought to be dead the next round. And Critical Focus? You mean the option that is literally weaker than Weapon Focus in absolute DPR?



And of course it's tier 5. It's a martial. Every martial is tier 4-5. Combine it with an oracle or a sorcerer though as a gish and it becomes ridiculous.

Not counting top-of-the-optimization chain paladins and bloodragers, you might be right, but Path of War and psionics are allowed, which means that there's Warlords, Warders, Stalkers, Zealots, Harbingers, Mystics, Aegides, and a bunch of archetypes that do Tier 3 quite well while being exclusive martials.

[CharonsHelper]

Errata'd out. You need to have a shield to 1-hand the polearm and then Slashing Grace doesn't work.

Nope - sorry. Slashing Grace works with a buckler which is still a shield and therefore works with Phalanx Soldier.



Of course, you could do Weapon Trick, but then you're trading what is at best a 2 damage per hit increase (1d10 nodachi vs 1d6 rapier) against a -2 penalty to attack rolls, totally inefficient.

Lol - the point isn't to get boosted damage - it's to get reach on a dex build and the crazy AOOs which follow.



Not really, your AC should roughly be 8-10 points higher than your attack roll until later levels unless you're absolutely dumping it-this means you're running 50% at best chances of getting it to happen against medium enemies, less if you're power attacking or piranha striking.

At high levels PA is terrible on full attacks anyway - and it's rarely useful when going one-handed of TWF at any level.

And things besides casters use touch attacks. Parry works against incorporeal creatures too. And Brilliant Energy weapons. Not to mention there is a trait which gives +2 to AOOs with blades. It's a gimme for a Swash.

And a 50% to block a normal attack which would otherwise hit you seems pretty sweet to me - that's the equivalent to a 50% miss chance. And with Combat Reflexes you can use Parry when flat-footed and your (dex build) AC is tanked.


And Critical Focus? You mean the option that is literally weaker than Weapon Focus in absolute DPR?

*sigh* It's not for the DPR. It's for the panache recharging. Yes - I mean Critical Focus - the feat which is the gateway to all of the awesome critical feats. Which a Swashbuckler qualifies for the fighter only ones.


Not counting top-of-the-optimization chain paladins and bloodragers, you might be right,.

You mean those classes which have spellcasting? It's the spells which make them better than tier 4-5.

[Florian]

Yes. That's the #1 reason it's a great dip. (Though the WF version they get is in many ways BETTER than normal as it works with ALL piercing weapons. Heck - if you go Swash 1/Phalanx Fighter 3 you can weapon finesse a polearm and get Dex to damage with Slashing Grace.)

Right now you can do a very decent DEX/CHA build around using a glaive and buckler with regular Fighter5/Devoted Muse 1+ using the Blade Rush and Shield Brace feats.

[khaldorgas]

The Synthesist // Monk/brawler/bloodrager (wich you prefer)

[Krazzman]

Not counting top-of-the-optimization chain paladins and bloodragers, you might be right, but Path of War and psionics are allowed, which means that there's Warlords, Warders, Stalkers, Zealots, Harbingers, Mystics, Aegides, and a bunch of archetypes that do Tier 3 quite well while being exclusive martials.

Even paladin and bloodrager are still T4 with some corner case builds pushing it really hard.

With the inclusion of PoW there are quite a lot of possibilities.

UnMonk // mystic
Druid//mystic
Basically anything with access to broken blade + extra bonuses for Unarmed Strike should be taken for damage output.

[Ualaa]

Ranger | Wizard is a really sweet gestalt.
D10 HD, full BAB, three saves, bonus feats, 6+INT skills.

Not sure that you're very high damage at 4th level, but you're getting there.
Scorching Ray, with full BAB, is a lot more accurate.



One of my players absolutely loved going with a 2H build, using Soulknife + Aegis.
His two handed builds did pretty ridiculous damage.

If going melee, I'd consider something from Path of War.

[upho]

Lol - the point isn't to get boosted damage - it's to get reach on a dex build and the crazy AOOs which follow.Huh? :smallconfused: Why would an AoO focused build want Dex? Seems Dex melee is really not very good idea to combine with reach and AoO optimization, since size increases don't really go very well with Dex as an attack stat. Sure, you can Dex a polearm through Polearm Dancer, and even combine it with a heavy shield, for a minor increase in the number of squares you threaten. But that's not exactly going to impress an enlarged Str based opponent with the same set-up, who could spend more feats actually improving his attacks (not to mention something like an ogre), nor is it going to provide much control outside the most cramped areas.


At high levels PA is terrible on full attacks anyway - and it's rarely useful when going one-handed of TWF at any level.If melee damage is the goal, I don't think there's any good way around PA. And if PA is "terrible on full attacks" in high levels, you don't think there might be something else wrong with the build? Regardless, why are you even making regular full attacks?

And perhaps more importantly, why are you saying it's rarely useful when going one-handed or TWF? That sounds very weird to me, as if feats like Dragon Ferocity or Horn of the Criosphinx didn't exist, much less PrCs such as the Dragon Fury. Not to mention natural attacks or entire disciplines such Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade.

In the case of damage builds, I actually think the problem is rarely that PA and plain full attacks with TWF is terrible in higher levels, it's that expecting TWF to be competitive by making plain full attacks is pretty much doomed to fail. The opportunities for making plain full attacks aren't going to just happen nearly often enough to begin with, especially during higher levels. That is, you actually have to work on creating opportunities for making multiple attacks. Which begs the question why you're not during earlier levels instead going say Time Skitter + Minute Hand + Broken Blade Stance + Raging Hunter Pounce pouncing or Frenzy Strike or Steel Flurry Strike or any other of the tons of better options than a plain full attack? Or why you're not during higher levels instead going say Primal Frenzy or Thrashing Blades? All these are somewhat to considerably more accurate than regular full attacks, on top of typically also allowing you to move before attacking and also to make more numerous attacks.


And things besides casters use touch attacks. Parry works against incorporeal creatures too. And Brilliant Energy weapons. Not to mention there is a trait which gives +2 to AOOs with blades. It's a gimme for a Swash.And what exactly has you believe there are no low level counters able to deal with these kinds of attacks?


And a 50% to block a normal attack which would otherwise hit you seems pretty sweet to me - that's the equivalent to a 50% miss chance. And with Combat Reflexes you can use Parry when flat-footed and your (dex build) AC is tanked.A 50% risk to waste your immediate (and therefore also your upcoming turn's swift) and get hit "seems pretty sweet"? Even when there are (non-swash) alternatives that can allow for less than a 25% risk with a minimum of investments? :smallfrown:


*sigh* It's not for the DPR. It's for the panache recharging. Yes - I mean Critical Focus - the feat which is the gateway to all of the awesome critical feats. Which a Swashbuckler qualifies for the fighter only ones.What's so awesome about imposing conditions on corpses? :smallwink:

That aside, don't you think it would be better if you had like 3+ types of even stronger and considerably more reliable versions of Parry? Like, say, a Parry which even stops spells? Or a higher level one which even gives you both a move and a standard or a full-round to act in before the triggering attack/effect/whatever hits? One which didn't even cost any limited daily resource which requires crits to recharge?

I get the feeling you don't really know much about what you're comparing the swash to. Because there's absolutely no competition whatsoever here. Really, suggesting the swash would be an optimal choice of martial class in game with DSP content is sorta like suggesting a go-kart is an optimal choice for beating lap records set by F1 cars.


You mean those classes which have spellcasting? It's the spells which make them better than tier 4-5.No, they're not high T4 just because of their minor spellcasting, which should be clear when you consider that the ranger isn't stronger than the barb, but more likely weaker. And at least in the case of bloodragers, the reason certain variants belong in T3 (= primalists of certain bloodlines) have nothing to do with these variants having better than vanilla casting.

[CharonsHelper]

Huh? :smallconfused: Why would an AoO focused build want Dex?

Really!? So that they get multiple Aoos a turn! With a Dex of 10 you can't get more than 1 Aoo per turn due to how Combat Reflexes works.

With a Dex of 30 you can get an Aoo against everyone that moves through, then trip them, get another Aoo with Greater trip, and another Aoo when they stand up.

Plus - Dex builds are straight up better. Str only boosts accuracy/damage. If Dex can do that it's a much better stat since it also boost initiative, reflex, AC, and skills.


If melee damage is the goal, I don't think there's any good way around PA. And if PA is "terrible on full attacks" in high levels, you don't think there might be something else wrong with the build?

Please actually run the math. Once you get the 2nd iterative attack, power attack is pretty worthless if the foe has decent AC because it's far too likely to make your iteratives miss.

It's rarely useful for one-handed or TWF because only two-handed gets the 3-to-1 ratio for PA.


A 50% risk to waste your immediate (and therefore also your upcoming turn's swift) and get hit "seems pretty sweet"? Even when there are (non-swash) alternatives that can allow for less than a 25% risk with a minimum of investments?

Have you actually read Parry/Riposte? Parry doesn't use an immediate action. It uses an AOO, which dex builds have out the wazoo with Combat Reflexes. Only Riposte uses an immediate action. If Parry used up your immediate action I'd agree with you that it's pretty mediocre.

[upho]

Really!? So that they get multiple Aoos a turn! With a Dex of 10 you can't get more than 1 Aoo per turn due to how Combat Reflexes works.Not necessarily. You can have Combat Reflexes work off of your initiation mod instead (meaning Int, Wis or Cha). It seems you keep forgetting the OP's game includes DSP content. This changes things. Quite a bit when it comes to questions like these, judging how optimal a martial class is for some purpose. What might be considered an impressive ability for a martial class in a game limited to Paizo material, may be a lot less so in a game with DSP content. And I believe the swash's parry is clearly one such case, because it's attractiveness is based on of the scarcity of working active defensive abilities in Paizo material, just like it was for the pre-errata Crane Wing. But with PoW content, active defense abilities like these aren't scarce at all, and instead the previously unique stuff like Parry seem mostly limited and complicated in comparison to counters.


With a Dex of 30 you can get an Aoo against everyone that moves through, then trip them, get another Aoo with Greater trip, and another Aoo when they stand up.Yeah, trip is fantastic, at least for the first 8 levels or so. But by the time you have a Dex of 30, not so much IME. And again, you can do a lot more impressive combos with DSP stuff (and with investments, they also happen to work all they way up to and beyond 20th).


Plus - Dex builds are straight up better. Str only boosts accuracy/damage. If Dex can do that it's a much better stat since it also boost initiative, reflex, AC, and skills.This has been repeatedly proven to very much not be the case with DSP material. But in order to avoid reiterating the same things yet again, I'll simply ask you again to not forget that the game we're talking about includes DSP content. So regardless of how valid your analysis might be in the context of an otherwise Paizo-only game, this isn't that context. Please keep in mind you may not be aware of the DSP options for things like Combat Reflexes, initiative, reflex and AC.

Let's just say that IME Dex melee builds can certainly be competitive - and sometimes even superior - in a DSP game, at least in certain combat roles/focuses and during certain levels. But Str melee still very much rules for example control/debuff - including AoO builds thereof - and 2-handed damage, and I'd say increasingly also in other roles/focuses the higher you raise the optimization bar. Which probably isn't very strange, considering the much more numerous, more significant, more easily accessible and more synergizing Str bonuses also a Paizo-only game includes (such as size, rage, bloodlines, PrCs, etc), not to mention the many Str related things which require additional investments in order to work for Dex, or that simply have no Dex counterpart (such as for example the aforementioned Dragon Ferocity and Horn of the Criosphinx).


Please actually run the math. Once you get the 2nd iterative attack, power attack is pretty worthless if the foe has decent AC because it's far too likely to make your iteratives miss.Yes, this is certainly often true for weapon wielders in a Paizo-only game. But we run into the same problem here: you've missed my point because you're obviously not talking about a DSP game. What I meant was that since there are other kinds of full attacks available, ones which for example allow you to make several attacks, all at full bab, why did you claim full attacks aren't accurate enough to even make PA worthwhile in higher levels?


It's rarely useful for one-handed or TWF because only two-handed gets the 3-to-1 ratio for PA.And again, this isn't necessarily true in a DSP game. And even in a Paizo-only game, TWF with things like monk/brawler unarmed strikes or Ascetic Style weapons would at least avoid the horrible off-hand 1:1 ratio (and can also have a Str x 2 bonus or more).

TL/DR: TWF is typically sub-par in a Paizo-only game. This isn't necessarily the case in a DSP game. And regardless of your chosen delivery method, I believe at least single-target melee damage isn't going to be a problem.


Have you actually read Parry/Riposte? Parry doesn't use an immediate action. It uses an AOO, which dex builds have out the wazoo with Combat Reflexes. Only Riposte uses an immediate action. If Parry used up your immediate action I'd agree with you that it's pretty mediocre.But that was what I wro-! Ooops! :smallredface: Seems I made a mess through hasty shuffling of sentences between paragraphs and not thinking straight! Sorry, my bad.

What I meant to say was that the parry costs both a limited resource and an AoO and still has a rather poor chance of success, and that the riposte also eats up your immediate, while counters will provide you with a much greater overall protection. (And btw, it's entirely possible to make a build able to initiate as many as three counters per round, in every round, at 9th level.)

And even in say a game which has houseruled parry to not require any panache at all, it still wouldn't make the swash a class that should be recommended as a strong mechanical choice. Because even if it's actually a considerably less weak choice if paired with a magus in a Paizo-only gestalt game, that class combo is nevertheless far weaker than any Int-based PoW class/archetype paired with a magus is in a DSP game. So my main gripe with suggesting the swash is the same as Tuvarkz's AFAICT.


Shameless OT advertising: Here's an over-the-top example build I made for Castilonium's Zealot guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505647-Unity-and-Determination-Castilonium%92s-guide-to-the-Path-of-War-Zealot/page3). If you take a quick look at the defense and offense numbers in the summary, and then at the example opening combat round, I think you can at least see that especially when it comes to martial builds, DSP content may change things quite considerably. (And this is by the way also an example of a Str based build which I dare say no Dex based build can come close to in terms of combat power.)
The following details Nelly while she is raging, in the stances of Black Seraph Style and Lesson VI: Supremacy with Stance of Thunderbrand, and affected by banshee’s hearing, heartbinding, metamorphosis, Time Skitter and applicable spells from her wands (listed in the Gear section below).

Angel-Blooded Aasimar Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1/Wilder 1/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder Ordained Defender) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Zealot 6/Awakened Blade 10
N Gargantuan female humanoid outsider (human, native, psionic)

Initiative +16; Senses blindsight 60 ft. (not vs creatures w/o heartbeat), darkvision 60 ft., Perception +33
Aura Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (enemies lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 vs fear), and as 1st level Neutral cleric


DEFENSE
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
HP 290; staggered at -1 to -31 hp (8+1d12+17d10+1d8 hit dice, 160 Con, 12 Psionic Body, 6 favored class; 6 zealot levels, 26 Con)
Fort +34, Ref +22, Will +35; +5 profane vs scared*; +5 dodge to Reflex vs traps
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 15
Defensive Abilities Black Seraph Style, defiance, Diehard, heartbinding, living bastion, Lurker in Darkness, situational awareness, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats) (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 30 caster level check to bring Nelly back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE
Speed 70 ft., fly 90 ft.
Melee nephilim's grip +45/+45/+40/+35/+30 and solstice's grip +45 (8d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision, plus bull rush, cruel, demoralize, lock, grab and constrict)
Space 20 ft., Reach 35 ft., 55 ft. with fiend's grips (50 ft., 70 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks bull rush (CMB +64 best of 2 rolls), constrict (2d6+30 nonlethal, +2d6 precision plus demoralize), cruel weapon 4/round (scared* sickened on hit, 5 THP if target knocked unconscious or killed), Enforcer (Intimidate +59), grab (CMB +62), lock (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.i8k533te3o3q) on hit 1/round and on any AoO hit (Reflex DC 38, adjacent enemy only)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy

Special Abilities
Attacks of Opportunity 6/round, triggered by any movement from threatened space, +47 attack (hit effects as nephilim's grip), or combat maneuver
Clairsentient Counter immediate when Nelly risks being affected by attack/spell/power/ability: may expend a maneuver and psionic focus to gain a standard or move action
Collective Nelly and 8 allies, 160' range, members can communicate telepathically, Nelly can use personal range power on member by expending psionic focus and +4 PP
Dastardly Gambit swift, +6 luck to dirty trick attempt; on success Nelly regains psionic focus, allies in 30' recover 1 maneuver and gain +6 morale to damage vs target for 1 round
Dazzling Gambit free when successfully performing a Dastardly Gambit, Nelly may make a demoralize attempt vs. all enemies within 30'
Demoralization enemies in 30' of Nelly lose immunity to fear, foe she demoralizes more than once suffers more severe fear condition instead of +1 round duration
Echoes of Steel when Nelly initiates maneuver of max 8th level, she can spend 1 PP/maneuver level to allow ally in collective initiate maneuver before she recovers it
Gauntlet Slam when Nelly hits with a fiend's grip she can make a bull rush as a free action, and she replaces unarmed strikes granted by maneuvers with fiend's grip attacks
Heartbinding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/mobilebasic) ally in collective gains +1 deflect to AC, +1 resist on saves, Nelly and ally both gain morale bonuses granted to either, and either may save for both vs emotion
Lock free when Nelly hits adjacent enemy with melee 1/round or whenever she hits adjacent with AoO, Reflex DC 38; can drag locked enemies w/o penalties
Martyrdom 1/round when ally in collective takes damage: Nelly may transfer up to 30 damage and reduce it by -3/PP spent, up to -18 (not below 1)
Precognitive Defenses Nelly may expend psionic focus as free action at any time to initiate readied counter (w/o using immediate action)
Zeal when Nelly hits with a strike or uses Aid Another to recover maneuvers, allies in collective gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

Wilder Surge and Powers 173 PP/day (163 remaining), ML 11 (12 using wild surge)
Raging Surge barbarian rage 22 rounds/day (20 remaining), wild surge +1 (psychic enervation 15%, -11 hp)
4th fold space
3rd banshee’s hearing augment 4 active, 12 h, metamorphosis augment 2 active, 11 min. (+2 size, +3 NA, +10' base land speed, Improved Trip)
2nd heartbinding active, 12 h
1st defensive precognition, offensive precognition

Awakened Blade and Zealot Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 20, Charisma
Stances God of the Hourglass StanceRH8, Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT3, Lesson VI: SupremacyFE8 active, Riven Hourglass StanceRH3, Stance of the Inner Eye active , Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5 active
Boosts Lord of the PridelandsGL9, Overpowering OptimismSG6, Time SkitterRH3 active, 5 rounds remaining
Counters Break the HourglassRH9, Oath of EternityEG9, Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4
Strikes zeal on hit: Hammer of the ImmortalEG8, Thrashing Dragon TwistTD5
Recovery move: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus; Aid Another for +11 to attack or AC, or +6 to skill check, zeal activated
Known Beat the Clock, Grasp of the Goddess, Grim Guard’s Laughter, Orichalcum Swipe, Sands of Time Hurricane

Monk Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Lesson II: ControlFE1
Boosts Minute HandRH1
Counters Iron ShellIT1
Strikes zeal on hit: One-Two PunchFE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, moves up to speed, grants adjacent ally +5 insight to AC and saves for one round

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's GlareBS1
Counters Guard’s OathEG1, Spilled SaltCR1
Strikes zeal on hit: Flurry StrikeBB1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, defensive focus for +15 ft. reach, CMD 72 vs Acrobatics to avoid AoO
Known Clockwatcher, Terrifying Blow

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 10, Charisma
Stances Inner Sphere StanceTD1
Boosts Encouraging RoarGL1, Leaping DragonTD1
Strikes zeal on hit: Swift ClawsTD1, Whirlwind SweepFE1
Recovery full-round: recovers 6 maneuvers and regains psionic focus, demoralize vs enemies in 30 ft.
Known Hunting Party, Tactical Strike

STATISTICS
Str 42, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 22 (20-point buy); Bab +19
CMB +47 (bull rush +64 best of 2 rolls, dirty trick +75, disarm +73, drag +62, grapple +62, reposition +90, steal +49, trip +92)
CMD 65 (bull rush 74, dirty trick 81, disarm 90, drag 72, grapple 67, reposition 100, steal 67, trip 102)



PP Reserve
Enhancement
Grips Atk/Dmg/Shld
B. Rush B/D
D. Trick B/D
Disarm B/D
Drag B/D
Grapple B/D
Repos. B/D
Trip B/D


130-173
+7
+47/+30/+8
+64/74
+73/81
+73/90
+62/72
+62/67
+90/100
+92/102


80-129
+6
+46/+29/+7
+62/73
+70/79
+70/87
+60/71
+61/67
+84/95
+86/97


30-79
+5
+45/+28/+6
+60/72
+67/77
+67/84
+58/70
+60/67
+78/90
+80/92


5-29
+4
+44/+27/+5
+58/71
+64/75
+64/81
+56/69
+59/67
+72/85
+74/87


4-0
+3
+43/+26/+4
+56/70
+61/73
+61/78
+54/68
+58/67
+66/80
+68/82


Feats Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy, Psionic Knack), Black Seraph AnnihilationB, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Buckler Bash, Combat ReflexesB, Deep FocusB, DiehardB, Dirty Trick MasterB, EnforcerB, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)B, Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Fiendskin (fire), Greater Dirty TrickB, Improved Dirty TrickB, Improved InitiativeB, Improved MetamorphosisB, Improved Shield BashB, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Lurker in DarknessB, Psionic BodyB, Psionic Meditation, Seize the OpportunityB, Shared PowerB, Shield SlamB, Soulless Gaze, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)B

Skills Acrobatics +10, Autohypnosis +17, Bluff +12, Climb +24, Diplomacy +28, Fly +7 (+14 using wand/+15 using armor), Intimidate +59, Knowledge (martial, psionics) +7, Perception +33, Sense Motive +35, Stealth +4 (+7 while Large), Use Magic Device +19

Alternate Racial Traits Gamla Heritage (Large size), Scion of Humanity, Variant Ability (+2 Wisdom)
Traits Adopted (Helpful), Blade of Mercy, Practiced Initiator (zealot), Psionic Knack (wilder)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass)

Gear nephilim's grip (+1 angered1 benevolent training (Enforcer) deep crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-special-materials) spiked gauntlet), solstice's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Seize the Opportunity, Shield Slam) deep crystal spiked gauntlet), dueling (PSFG) leveraging furious amulet of dueling psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Psychic) mighty fists, +1 cruel training (Improved Initiative) body wrap of mighty strikes, +5 benevolent mithral celestial plate of natural armor and protection2, pauldrons of the splendid resisting bull (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pauldrons-of-the-bull) +5 (+5 to Diplomacy)2, twisting vines (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-twisting-vines) gauntlets of the skilled bull rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-the-skilled-maneuver) and manipulation (+5 to UMD)2, anaconda’s coils belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-anaconda-s-coils) of physical perfection +62, menacing observant mask of mental superiority +6 (+10 & max ranks in Sense Motive, Intimidate, Perception)2, feathered boots of the battle herald (+5 & +2 circumstance to Fly)2, bracelet and necklace of charms3 with 12 charms of anger3 and a power charm of intensity3, cognizance crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/cognizance-crystals) (7 pp) x2, manual of gainful exercise +3 (used), cracked dusty rose prism, cracked pale green prism x2, mwk device instruction manual (+2 circumstance to UMD), wands of contingent action (CL 5), fly (CL 6), long arm (CL 5) and strong jaw (CL 7), 11,650 gp (remainder of 880,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "big six" or skill competence bonuses to (any) slotted item). All skill bonuses are competence bonuses unless otherwise noted.
3 Item from Steelforge.


Credit to exelsisxax for general hole-poking!

In order to show Nelly's combat mechanics against truly dangerous opponents and hopefully provide at least a glimpse of her actual in-game combat effectiveness, without me having to write the equivalent of a PhD thesis on the subject, I'm going to describe an opening round in a somewhat simplified fight against Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu) (the CR 30 demon lord). Since Nelly is rather heavily optimized to be effective in a primary defender/controller (secondary leader) combat role, she should be capable of beating the opposition on her own while also protecting and supporting a few useless squishy allies, even if Pazuzu has brought along say three balor lords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor/balor-lord) (CR 25 each, let's call them "Leftbal", "Midbal" and "Rightbal"). For simplicity's sake, I've assumed that Nelly and her useless allies encounter these monsters in some dark featureless place with plenty of room to move, starting about 60' from the enemies (when a combatant is first able to see and target an opponent):


http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/q_100/v1484447431/Nelly_vs_Pazuzu_y0ptnj.png
LB = Leftbal, MB = Midbal, RB = Rightbal
P = Pazuzu (flying 20' above ground)
N = Nelly (flying 20' above ground)
A = Nelly's PC allies

I've also assumed that no combatant is surprised and all have some rudimentary knowledge of the opposition's strength gleaned from scouting, Knowledge skill checks, potential previous run-ins etc. (For Nelly, this would include say approximate minimum CR and maybe the most obvious creature/class type, meaning something along the lines of "one unique(ly) badass demon lord of a CR above 28, and three martially oriented balor-ish demons, each of a CR above 24".)

The following describes the combatants' likely actions and their effects, including average damage (adjusted for hit chance but not including crit damage, rounded to closest integer) and average/typical chances and results of other effects. As before, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful. Note also that outside of the rules specifically for AoOs, there are AFAIK no general rules detailing the order in which to resolve multiple free and potentially interrupting actions triggered by one single event and/or its immediate effects, so in the cases when the rules are silent I've assumed the creature performing the actions in question decides the order. Naturally, I've tried to adhere strictly to RAW.

1 Initiative roll
Nelly has the highest initiative bonus so she is likely to act first.

2 Automatic by Nelly
Nelly's contingent action is triggered, and she enters Black Seraph Style stance.

3 Standard by Nelly
Nelly initiates Lord of the Pridelands: Nelly and her allies gain +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves for 1 round (assuming her allies are 3 PCs and at least one of them has a familiar/AC/eidolon or similar).

4 Free by Nelly
Nelly uses Precognitive Defenses by expending her psionic focus to initiate Oath of Eternity: for 1 round, Nelly's AoOs deals +3d6 damage and curses target for 1 round, and she can make a total of 16 AoOs during round.

5 Move by Nelly
Nelly flies off to pick a fight, moving 55' straight north to within 10' of Pazuzu and 30' of the balor lords (of course taking the opportunity to call the demon lord "A chicken little chicken!" and cackle mockingly for emphasis). Nelly would have automatically succeeded on the save vs Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts (Fortitude +44 vs DC 43), but she does not need make the throw as Pazuzu is pushed back at least 20', after he takes 179 damage (mostly nonlethal) and becomes blinded for at least 2 rounds, cowering for 3 rounds, cursed and sickened for 1 round and dazed for 5 rounds:

5.1 Free - Precognitive Defenses by Nelly expending her Deep Focus, triggered by Nelly being exposed to Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts, allowing her to initiate Break the Hourglass
5.2 Move granted by Break the Hourglass - in this situation, Nelly unfortunately can't use this move for anything more constructive than going "Nye, nye, nye, nye, nye!" at Pazuzu and sticking out her tongue at him
5.3 Standard granted by Break the Hourglass - Hammer of the Immortal vs Pazuzu: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 48) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds

5.4 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu shaken for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57) and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs his attacks
5.5 Swift - Dastardly Gambit: Nelly gains +6 luck to dirty trick (doesn't stack with the +14 luck already granted by Nelly's Dueling (PFSG) Amulet of Mighty Fists)
5.6 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: 90% chance of Pazuzu being blinded for at least 2 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 88); Nelly recovers Hammer of the Immortal, allies recover 1 maneuver (and all gain +6 morale to damage which doesn't stack with the +10 already granted by Lord of the Pridelands)

5.7 Free - Hypercognitive Focus granted by Nelly recovering a maneuver: Nelly regains her Deep Focus
5.8 Free - Intimidate attempt vs enemies within 30' granted by Dazzling Gambit: Pazuzu frightened for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), and the balor lords are shaken for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43), and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs their attacks as well
5.9 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab: 0% success chance since Pazuzu is protected by constant freedom of movement (Though not listed, Nelly might make additional free grapple attempts on her following hits (5.11, 5.14 and 5.16 below) without realizing the futility of it.)
5.10 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 77), moving Pazuzu at least 5' after:

5.11 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - 95% hit chance for 81 damage and Pazuzu is cursed and sickened for 1 round

5.12 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu panicked for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), dropping the Scepter Of Shibaxet
5.13 Free - bull rush as 5.10 above

5.14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazzled for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.15 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.01 above

5.16 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazed for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)

5.17 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.18 Automatic - Pazuzu is pushed back the total distance (typically at least 20') caused by successful bull rushes (5.10, 5.13, 5.15 and 5.17 above)

6 Standard by Leftbal
In their current positions, none of the balor lords are close enough to Nelly's allies to be able to see and target them, so the demons are therefore likely to decide to first concentrate on the most immediate threat, meaning Nelly. Especially since that threat just made their boss soil his feathers in fear before hitting him over the head so hard even the balors can see the obligatory imaginary little chattering quasits flying in circles around their leader, cartoon style. So unless Leftbal decides to simply flee instead of attacking (unlikely), it must try to either charge Nelly, move south towards where it probably has heard Nelly's allies, and/or cast a spell. Going by the tactics section in the bestiary entry for balor lords, Leftbal is most likely to try using a damaging SLA, like firestorm, targeting the whole space Nelly occupies. And if Leftbal does so, all three balor lords are most likely doomed, each one taking 98 damage (mostly nonlethal), being panicked for 12 rounds, dazed for 8 rounds and pushed back up to at least 30', while Leftbal's firestorm never occurs since Nelly's immediate response to the threat interrupts the balor's action to use the SLA:

6.1 Immediate - Clairsentient Counter by Nelly expending her Deep Focus and Hunting Party, triggered by Nelly potentially being affected by Leftbal's firestorm
6.2 Standard granted by Clairsentient Counter - Hammer of the Immortal vs Leftbal: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 33) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Leftbal is sickened for 1 round (and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds)

6.3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Leftbal is frightened for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43)
6.4 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: Leftbal is dazzled for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.5 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 62), moving Leftbal up to at least 15' after:

6.6 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Leftbal is cursed for 1 round and dazed for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)

6.7 Free - bull rush as 6.5 above
6.8 Automatic - Leftbal is pushed back the total distance (typically up to at least 30') caused by successful bull rushes (6.5 and 6.7 above)
6.9 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Midbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Midbal
6.10 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Rightbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Rightbal

Resources Spent When the first round ends, Nelly has expended Hunting Party and all her readied zealot/awakened blade maneuvers except Temporal Body Adjustment, Thrashing Dragon Twist and Time Skitter, plus her psionic focus and Deep Focus. She has also used her Hypercognitive Focus for the round and made 6 AoOs (10 additional AoOs possible before the start of her next turn).

Clearly, Pazuzu and his balor lords lost this fight almost before it started. As they end up dazed and cowering or frightened for several rounds, Nelly and her allies have plenty of time to take care of the beaten demons in the way they prefer before Pazuzu is able to threaten anyone with so much as bad language.

Due to Pazuzu's +13 to Initiative and the inherently fluky nature of opposed d20 rolls, there's a considerable risk Pazuzu wins the initiative and may act before Nelly. But even if he can do so, he still doesn't stand much of chance against her in a straight up fight like this. None of his SLAs or (Su) abilities has a DC high enough to affect Nelly while she's affected by Lord of the Pridelands, and even should she not be, none of his SLAs will be effective and none of his (Su) abilities will have more than a 40% chance to succeed if Nelly makes a saving throw (the most powerful ones being avoided with a successful Fortitude or Will save vs DC 43). But most importantly, any effect he tries to expose Nelly to can be countered by her Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, meaning Pazuzu grants Nelly up to a standard and a move action to interrupt his triggering standard action each time he uses any such offensive SLA or (Su) ability. On top of that, Nelly's Precognitive Defenses, Deep Focus and Hypercognitive Focus ensures she may typically make two such interrupting counters per round at any time, in addition to her normally granted actions, while Pazuzu may only make the normal one standard action during his own turn, leaving him far behind Nelly in the action economy race.

Instead, if Pazuzu is lucky and gets to go first, to avoid further humiliation and likely being captured, his best chance is actually to just get the hell abyss out by using his greater teleport as his very first action. That can at least save his ruffled feathers long enough for him to start trying to deal with Nelly in some much less overt manner. But Pazuzu is highly unlikely to realize this without having very extensive and highly detailed knowledge of Nelly's combat abilities. And if he does have such knowledge, he probably would've used his considerable power to ensure he doesn't risk ending up anywhere remotely close to Nelly in the first place, much less in a fight he knows he's bound to lose. Instead, he'd probably try offering Nelly some kind of agreement to help her against common enemies, hoping to (further) corrupt her soul in the process so he may eventually turn her into his powerful servant once her life is at an end.

The next best thing Pazuzu can do if he wins initiative is probably to go for Nelly's magic items and buffs using a targeted greater dispel magic. This action has the problem of triggering Nelly's Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, and may very well put Pazuzu within range of Nelly's interrupting attacks since he must be within 60' in order to see and target her. But this option at least has a chance of causing Nelly some minor annoyance and may delay Pazuzu's downfall another round if he can get most of his allies between him and Nelly.

[JonathanPDX]

Wow, so many great ideas and discussions, thank you guys!


Synthesist Summoner//Vivisectionist Alchemist.
Synthesist provides bonus HP and stats, as well as extra attacks and pounce.
Vivisectionist gives sneak attack to go with those attacks.
At low levels you'll be kicking all kinds of butt. You're sturdy, and since you can't PEW PEW if you aren't alive, you're in good shape. Probably invest in 16 Int, but don't bother maxing out cha until you need more for spell access later.
You can pick up the dimensional agility featline as well, letting you flank for sneak attack.

You're right, Synthesist / Vivisectionist would be a monster. But they're both banned in PFS so I am guessing that even in this campaign it would be degenerate enough to be vetoed by the DM. But if he said "literally anything goes" I'm sure that build would throw down a lot of dice!


Fighter // rogue going skulking slayer half orc sap master would have the feats to build his build pretty quick and start doing HDd8+HD damage with every hit and hit everything in range through cleave/greatcleave and surprise follow through.

Oh, this is hilarious! I don't think it would turn on until level 5 (3D6 sneak attack) but when it did, oh my! 6D6+6 nonlethal damage not even including the weapon itself! If we level up to 5 I am going to have to at least mock this up. I wonder if you could swap fighter for a POW class and still dish out nonlethal damage via strike maneuvers.


Regarding Strength vs Dex-to be honest, there's not much in the way of a significant enough difference. You can compensate for initiative, AC, and Dex through a variety of ways with initiators.
Warlord//Paladin is a really powerful combination, or with Warsighted Oracle. Mystic, I'd probably pair with Ranger or Soulknife.
For Dex and all the crucials covered, Warlord//Dread makes for a solid case, and so does Stalker//Slayer.

The Stalker / Slayer looks like the ideal build for a pure-dex two-weapon fighting build, maybe with Kukri's and the Stalker Art to improve their threat range. I haven't mapped out how that damage might compare to a two-hander or unarmed build, though.

Looking at unarmed builds, the best I have come up with so far is an Soulknife (Deadly Fist / Gifted Blade) / Mystic (Aurora Soul). This would let you run literally everything through WIS, has access to the best disciplines, and all it is really missing is a solid Fort save. By my count, my damage would be 1D6 +1 (enchant) + 5 (WIS bonus) +5 (Elemental Nimbus Stance) and perhaps Power Attack or some other feats as well. Going Mystic / Unchained Monk fixes the Fort issue but has a ton of overlap between the two classes, while the Soulknife has more flexibility in where to spend bonus feats. It would also take a big leap at level 5, too.

I'm still pondering how to make the ideal plate-wearing strength-based two-hander, though. Harbinger fits the bill thematically and has great disciplines to play with but without a reflex save, full BAB, or heavy armor proficiency my options for a second class are limited. The Warlord is closer but in a similar boat, stuck in medium armor which makes it hard to tank Dex and no good options for a second class that offers reflex and will saves as well as heavy armor or feats to throw away.

The Zealot fits the bill quite nicely with maneuvers, heavy armor, full BAB, aid-another on himself, and flexible abilities. I might need to use traits to select more damage-heavy disciplines but there's a lot to work with there. The question is what second class would add the most and also has a good Reflex save to shore up that weakness. Ninja or Rogue both add +2D6 sneak attack, a couple tricks / talents, uncanny dodge, and a mess of skill points. The Investigator doesn't max out the damage but extracts of Enlarge Person could be handy.

Any suggestions on ways to build the ideal POW greatsword swinging monster? Or which of the three approaches (Dex, unarmed, strength) might have the best means to pump out consistent damage at this level?

Thanks, you guys rock!

[Tuvarkz]

Except that Armor proficiency is meaningless?
A +1 Fusing Mithral Fullplate has only an ACP of -2. Slap a Steelbone Frame on it, and it's down to 0, which means no penalties for not being proficiency.
Also, you can always to shield focus+shield brace for that extra AC, and grab a Nodachi which works with this, with 2-handed damage, at no real penalties since darkwood or mithral negate shield ACP.

If you want a Greatsword, though...I'd say something like Half-Giant Pathwalker Psychic Warrior into Awakened Blade would do. Powerful Build+Primal Warrior's Stance+Augmented Expansion means 12d6 weapon damage die as early as level 7, or 6 with Overchannel. You can also dip a couple levels of Fighter for Str to AoOs, or a single level of ordained defender ZS warder for Wisdom to AoOs, and chain with Seize the Opportunity+Vital Strike so your AoOs hit like a truck, or offensively wise, get Vital Strike and the Gorum Divine Fighting Technique+Martial Charge, and your strikes add another 12d6 die, and with movement-boosting maneuvers, you might manage to charge every turn or something.

[Peat]

I'm still pondering how to make the ideal plate-wearing strength-based two-hander, though. Harbinger fits the bill thematically and has great disciplines to play with but without a reflex save, full BAB, or heavy armor proficiency my options for a second class are limited. The Warlord is closer but in a similar boat, stuck in medium armor which makes it hard to tank Dex and no good options for a second class that offers reflex and will saves as well as heavy armor or feats to throw away.

The Zealot fits the bill quite nicely with maneuvers, heavy armor, full BAB, aid-another on himself, and flexible abilities. I might need to use traits to select more damage-heavy disciplines but there's a lot to work with there. The question is what second class would add the most and also has a good Reflex save to shore up that weakness. Ninja or Rogue both add +2D6 sneak attack, a couple tricks / talents, uncanny dodge, and a mess of skill points. The Investigator doesn't max out the damage but extracts of Enlarge Person could be handy.

Any suggestions on ways to build the ideal POW greatsword swinging monster? Or which of the three approaches (Dex, unarmed, strength) might have the best means to pump out consistent damage at this level?

Thanks, you guys rock!

Paladin sounds the obvious choice for shoring up a save and getting heavy armour. Although Ninja/Rogue/Investigator/Whatever and just taking Heavy Armour Proficiency would work.

[the_archduke]

Paladin//Wilder - super defenses, cha synergy, nice burst damage

Aegis//uRogue- Elf, dex focus, elven curve blade

Soulknife//Psychic Warrior - wis SAD (use focused offense), could do warsoul or pathwalker

[upho]

Low level heavily armored damage dealer of size "Silly L", swinging a Greatsword of size "Even Sillier XXXL":

Aasimar/skinwalker/tiefling of gamla (Akashic Mysteries) heritage Zweihander Sentinel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/zweihander-sentinel-warder-archetype/) warder 5/awakened blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/awakened-blade/) 10//psion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/) (egoist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/psionic-disciplines/psychometabolism/)) 7/aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/) 8: let's you start as a very heavily armed and armored giant, blending full Int-based initiation with incredible full Int-based self-buff focused manifestation. You start Large and can grow Huge with minor metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/) from 1st level as a move action with Swift Shapeshifter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/swift-shapeshifter-psionic/) gained as a psion bonus feat, and as early as 5th you can grow Gargantuan with metamorphosis. Add the Mixed Blood (orc) trait and the Mighty Frame feat for the powerful build special quality, allowing to wield a Colossal Greatsword with an 8d6 base damage die. Add Vital Strike, Seize the Opportunity and perhaps the Gorum's Swordsmanship (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Divine%20Fighting%20Tech nique) Tuvarkz suggested, and your AoOs and charges will have a 16d6 die, or 32d6(!) if you're in the Primal Warrior Stance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Primal-Warrior-Stance) at 5th. Focus on the Primal Fury and Scarlet Throne disciplines.

At 1st level, with an augmented minor metamorphosis and excluding bonuses from maneuvers or other temporary effects, you'll have a Str score of 22 (16 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement minor metamorphosis, 2 size minor metamorphosis), giving you a:

+5 attack bonus (1 bab, 6 str, 1 Mixed Blood (orc), -2 size, -1 Power Attack)
+10 damage bonus (6 str, 1 Mixed Blood (orc), 3 Power Attack)

And by 5th, with Improved Metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/improved-metamorphosis-psionic/) (psion 5th level bonus feat), Mighty Frame (3rd level feat), Vital Strike (warder 3rd level bonus feat), Seize the Opportunity (5th level feat) and Weapon Focus (cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder for 2,000 gp), this will have increased to a Str score of 27 (16 base, 2 race, 1 level, 4 enhancement metamorphosis, 4 size metamorphosis), giving you a:

+9 attack bonus (5 bab, 8 str, 1 Mixed Blood (orc), 1 Weapon Focus, -4 size, -2 Power Attack)
+15 damage bonus (8 str, 1 Mixed Blood (orc), 6 Power Attack)

In other words, while you're in the Primal Warrior Stance, a single AoO will typically one-shot an average CR 5 monster (AC 18, 55 hp) provoking within your 20 feet reach, dealing a massive average of 127 points of damage on a regular hit. But even if you don't go for this kind of crazy size and damage potential (which you most likely shouldn't), the combo of excellent fighting skills and self-buffing plus plenty of utility powers and skills makes this build a great adventurer, allowing your character to not only be an awesome combatant, but also to contribute substantially in a vast majority of other challenges your party is likely to face.


For an some nice party support abilities, better social skills and additional combat shenanigans with an even greater Str (and Con) score, you could do a Cha-based variant of the above as a zealot 5/awakened blade 10//wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder/) (raging surge) 7/Primal Disciple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-barbarian-archetypes/primal-disciple-barbarian-archetype/) barbarian 8 (and/or paladin levels for superior defenses and smite). This will delay access to metamorphosis to 8th level and requires you to spend a feat on Expanded Knowledge, but you'll also give you rage and rage powers, more Power Points and the zealot's awesome move action recovery allowing you to spam your best maneuvers.

Since both these builds have quite impressive tank/defender abilities in addition to their great damage output potential, together with your party's primary tank the other PC's will probably become near untouchable in melee.


CAUTION! Unless your game is really high-op, if you go for either of the above variants I really recommend you hold back on the frankly stupid combat potential and don't push size increases and Vital Strike damage as hard as I've described here, and especially not as early. Besides, if you're going to play beyond 5th level, you'll probably want to enter the awakened blade PrC at 6th, which in turn requires you to prioritize your feats differently.