Just realized Battlemaster lets you make a dex based trip character

[MadBear]

This might be old hat to many of you, but looking into building a new character I've noticed that a battle masters trip attack can use dex rather then strength for the saving throw the character makes.

Having a swashbuckling rogue with a 3-6 level dip in fighter to knock opponents prone seems pretty good (especially if you pick up riposte as well to give you more options for reaction sneak attacks)

[Garresh]

Yep. Fighters in general make absolutely amazing multiclass for rogues. Battlemasters can use dex for control, eldritch knights give cantrips which work off the single rogue attack, and champions give rogues super-crit chance which scales amazingly with sneak attack.

Additionally, every fighter feature works great for rogues. Action surge? Fantastic. Second Wind? Amazing on a slightly squishier rogue. Proficiencies? Hey my rogue is tanky and uses a shield now. Fight style? Literally ANY of them are great for rogue.

TBH, you'd be hard pressed to make a fighter rogue multiclass that wasn't absolutely amazing. Those two just fit together perfectly.

[Corran]

Yeah, rogues and fighters combine very well. The precision maneuvre too, among other things already mentioned.

Perhaps I am missing sth, but I dont quite see how trip attack helps a rogue that much. Is it a flavour thing mostly then, or am I missing sth big?

[Cybren]

Yeah, rogues and fighters combine very well. The precision maneuvre too, among other things already mentioned.

Perhaps I am missing sth, but I dont quite see how trip attack helps a rogue that much. Is it a flavour thing mostly then, or am I missing sth big?

It does give advantage for sneak attack, not that it's that hard to get as is

[MadBear]

Mostly I was trying to make a swashbuckler, and realized taking 6 levels of battlemaster net:

- 2 attacks
- action surge
- Riposte (for reaction attacks)
- Trip attack (for advantage on your attacks)
- Parry (for damage reduction and flavor)
- 2 feats (negating what was lost in the multiclass)
- twf style (for bonus to damage on offhand attack)


Then rogue nets you all that juice sneak attack damage, expertise on persuasion checks (for that debonair charm), and the rest of the rogue package.

[Corran]

Mostly I was trying to make a swashbuckler, and realized taking 6 levels of battlemaster net:

- 2 attacks
- action surge
- Riposte (for reaction attacks)
- Trip attack (for advantage on your attacks)
- Parry (for damage reduction and flavor)
- 2 feats (negating what was lost in the multiclass)
- twf style (for bonus to damage on offhand attack)


Then rogue nets you all that juice sneak attack damage, expertise on persuasion checks (for that debonair charm), and the rest of the rogue package.
If you are going with 6 fighter levels in your final build [so fighter (BM) 6 / rogue (swashbuckler) 14], you might as well go fighter7/rogue13. You essentially trade blindsense with 2 more maneuvres, 1 more superiority die, and that 7th level battlemaster feature which is somehow thematic (''... because I know something you dont know...'').


It does give advantage for sneak attack, not that it's that hard to get as is
Well, I figured as much (my bad for not being more specific), but.... I still dont really see it as overly useful. Meaning, the potential to trip an enemy is not that great when you have an off hand attack already and even less if extra attack is in the mix. As a way to negate disadvantage, you can always shove with your main attack and follow that up with an off-hand attack (if extra attack is in play, even better), without expending sd that could go in precision or riposte. If not twf, so I assume a shield, then SM is better, as it profits from potential expertise in athletics and it does not rely on resources (though it has its limitations, size wise). And there is always feinting, which guarantees negating the disadvantage at the same cost as trip attack (though with trip the enemy has a chance to save). With the rogue needing mostly one good strike, I just dont find trip attack that much tempting, as say, for a GWM BM fighter who has many attacks and each and every one of those counts. Maybe I am just wrong though, this is just my first impression on how trip attack would work on a rogue, never really gave it much thought on rogues. Ofc trip becomes immediatelly better if you have a party heavily geared towards melee, so there is that.

[MadBear]

The big advantage with trip attack is that it procs after you already hit. Since a twf character will often be making 3 attacks, getting advantage on the 2nd & 3rd attack is a great way to increase your overall damage output.

[djreynolds]

This might be old hat to many of you, but looking into building a new character I've noticed that a battle masters trip attack can use dex rather then strength for the saving throw the character makes.

Having a swashbuckling rogue with a 3-6 level dip in fighter to knock opponents prone seems pretty good (especially if you pick up riposte as well to give you more options for reaction sneak attacks)

I'm playing a strength based BM/SW and I have found expertise in athletics/shield master at a higher level in melee is better than trip.

Shield master can be used before you strike and even with an 8 in strength it is the same athletics score a 17th level fighter with a 20 strength.

So even with a dex based rogue with shield master, at level 13 you have a +9 to whatever you roll and shield master's shove never runs out

[MadBear]

I'm playing a strength based BM/SW and I have found expertise in athletics/shield master at a higher level in melee is better than trip.

Shield master can be used before you strike and even with an 8 in strength it is the same athletics score a 17th level fighter with a 20 strength.

So even with a dex based rogue with shield master, at level 13 you have a +9 to whatever you roll and shield master's shove never runs out

True, I'm not saying that it's superior above all else. It's just that it doesn't eat an action at all when used. Shield master eats through a bonus action, which while not huge, competes with other choices. Meanwhile, trip procs after a successful hit, adds extra damage, and doesn't waste any action economy. It's also a limited resource and isn't a guarantee to work, but that's the price you pay for it's upsides.

[Garresh]

There's more advantages for trip attacks. Since they can be done at range, a rogue can function as a frontline protector to squishies while staying out of range. Move into 30 feet, fire crossbow, trip, pull back. They lose half their movement allowing you and any backline characters to easily evade the worst threats.

[Citan]

Mostly I was trying to make a swashbuckler, and realized taking 6 levels of battlemaster net:

- 2 attacks
- action surge
- Riposte (for reaction attacks)
- Trip attack (for advantage on your attacks)
- Parry (for damage reduction and flavor)
- 2 feats (negating what was lost in the multiclass)
- twf style (for bonus to damage on offhand attack)


Then rogue nets you all that juice sneak attack damage, expertise on persuasion checks (for that debonair charm), and the rest of the rogue package.
Not sure if Parry is the best third choice considering you already have many uses for your reactions and strong defensive abilities as a Rogue, but certainly not the worst either. ;) I would rather take Precision personally but that's my taste. ^^

Otherwise, I'd say you are spot on.:smallbiggrin:

[MadBear]

Not sure if Parry is the best third choice considering you already have many uses for your reactions and strong defensive abilities as a Rogue, but certainly not the worst either. ;) I would rather take Precision personally but that's my taste. ^^

Otherwise, I'd say you are spot on.:smallbiggrin:

In that case, make it 7 levels of BM to get more superiority dice, and have both manuevers.

[bid]

The weakness of trip attack is you don't get expertise, and DC acts as a roll of 8 on your "opposed check". You could potentially be 8 points behind at high level (6 from expertise, 2 for rolling 10 on average, this assumes the target isn't proficient in athletics/acrobatics).

The range is nice though. And it's better against high-Dex enemies.

[Tanarii]

Mostly I was trying to make a swashbuckler,As in the swashbuckler sub-class from SCAG?

But yeah, Dex Fighters already are swashbucklers, using the term generically. Rapier & Shield is even where the term swashbuckling comes from.

[djreynolds]

True, I'm not saying that it's superior above all else. It's just that it doesn't eat an action at all when used. Shield master eats through a bonus action, which while not huge, competes with other choices. Meanwhile, trip procs after a successful hit, adds extra damage, and doesn't waste any action economy. It's also a limited resource and isn't a guarantee to work, but that's the price you pay for it's upsides.

The great thing about a dex based battlemaster is those maneuvers work in melee and even some ranged like trip.

There is no reason your swashbuckler/battlemaster can't use a bow and trip that way for others or even disarm, and then move in to melee as well, and do it reliably

Rogue/fighter is awesome and swashbuckler coupled with battlemaster is great, you can toss a dagger and trip them or disarm them.

[Arkhios]

A bonus point: whip is a martial reach finesse weapon. Imagine what you could accomplish with that and tripping maneuver :D

[djreynolds]

That's an awesome idea, in the DMG page 271, "creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp, etc."

So you can use an attack action, your actual attack roll vs the enemy's acrobatics/strength check

Now a battlemaster could have up to +19 on his maneuver and doesn't need to give up an attack and has a damage rider.

But since most athletics/acrobatics checks will be on par with you attack stat, you always have a good chance to mundanely disarm someone

Rapier and whip swashbuckler/battlemaster... looks very cool

Question, can a paladin smite with a whip?

[Arkhios]

Question, can a paladin smite with a whip?

Of course. It's a melee reach weapon.

[djreynolds]

Well swashbuckler/battlemaster/paladin look really cool then

OoA paladin with a whip and rapier, spamming ensnaring strike as the whip strikes, cool image

"Did you just litter in the sacred garden" Crack "Now stay here ensnared until that goblet bio-degrades"

[Arkhios]

Well swashbuckler/battlemaster/paladin look really cool then

OoA paladin with a whip and rapier, spamming ensnaring strike as the whip strikes, cool image

"Did you just litter in the sacred garden" Crack "Now stay here ensnared until that goblet bio-degrades"

Not a bad idea. While my (OoA) paladin couldn't even dream about swashbuckler multiclass, I might still purchase a whip next time I can.

[djreynolds]

Though you wouldn't be "optimized" 13 or even a 14 in dex isn't that expensive with a half-elf.

You could 13/13/14/10/12/12, with half elf 14/14/14/10/12/14... these are very doable stats

I have ran a swashbuckler/paladin mountain dwarf, the sister of a slain dwarf fighter out for vengeance. You just won't have a 20 in attack stat and charisma, oh well, she was still cool and died but had her vnegeance