Advice for epic level characters for webcomic

[danielxcutter]

Yeah... I've got this idea for a webcomic using D&D 3.5 rules in the vein of Order of the Stick. One prominent group in the comic is a retired adventurer party, all ECL 24.

Here's what I've planned out so far:

*A multiclass martial adept, mostly based on Darrin's Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137260-3-5-ToB-Archon-of-Nine-All-9th-Level-Maneuvers&p=7627408#post7627408) build. Also party leader.

*Elan Ranger/Psion(Egoist)/Slayer gish, with Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, and Claws of the Beast for lots of melee damage. Also has a very large power list, because she's had a decade of downtime since she retired.

*Elf Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant. Takes care of most of the party's magic in general(although the Elan helps). In combat, uses summoning spells, buffs, and BFC, but can fill other caster roles rather easily.

*Human Warlock. Glaivelock build, without Hellfire Warlock. Also uses UMD a lot, and can craft as well. Good debuffer thanks to Utterdark Blast.

*Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian 20. Charger build with Spirit Lion Totem and Trapfinder ACFs, and may have other ACFs as well.

*Warforged NG Incarnate. Good meatshield and decent damage dealer, and also fills the role of skillmonkey to an extent.

*Human Rogue/Swashbuckler/Nightsong Enforcer, TWFing for lots of Sneak Attack damage.




Are there any glaring defiencies in the party makeup? Any advice for their builds? I've got decent ideas but I'd still like some feedback from the optimizers.

[Karl Aegis]

You've got six melee characters and a summoner. How do you expect this to work and what exactly is the warforged for?

[icefractal]

I think a big question here is - to what extent are you planning to go by the rules? OotS, for example, has made an increasing split from the rules, in the interest of more flexibility with plot, IIRC. Especially as the characters reached higher levels, which leads directly to -

The caster issue. You'll notice that for the casters in the OOTS:
1) V is a specialist Wizard with a very limited spellbook, so conveniently no Teleport.
2) Elan is only a partial caster, is low-Int/Wis enough to plausibly forget many applicable spell usages, and has a lack of the Concentration skill as a failsafe.
3) Durkon's not there anymore. And when he was, it was necessary to resort to homebrew complications in spell preparation.

Your party doesn't have these limitations. In fact, both of the casters are specifically noted as having a broad variety of spells, and the Druid can prepare anything on the list. That means you're going to have to take the full power of 9th level magic into account for whether your intended plots work - are you ready for that?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a webcomic that did do that. But the fact that I haven't so far gives me the impression that it's no easy task.

[danielxcutter]

You've got six melee characters and a summoner. How do you expect this to work and what exactly is the warforged for?

Well, the Warlock isn't a total melee, and neither is the Slayer - she both has a large number of and enjoys using offensive powers. The Warforged does some skillmonkey stuff, tanks, and has also prevented the party from falling apart of giving up more than once.


I think a big question here is - to what extent are you planning to go by the rules? OotS, for example, has made an increasing split from the rules, in the interest of more flexibility with plot, IIRC. Especially as the characters reached higher levels, which leads directly to -

The caster issue. You'll notice that for the casters in the OOTS:
1) V is a specialist Wizard with a very limited spellbook, so conveniently no Teleport.
2) Elan is only a partial caster, is low-Int/Wis enough to plausibly forget many applicable spell usages, and has a lack of the Concentration skill as a failsafe.
3) Durkon's not there anymore. And when he was, it was necessary to resort to homebrew complications in spell preparation.

Your party doesn't have these limitations. In fact, both of the casters are specifically noted as having a broad variety of spells, and the Druid can prepare anything on the list. That means you're going to have to take the full power of 9th level magic into account for whether your intended plots work - are you ready for that?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a webcomic that did do that. But the fact that I haven't so far gives me the impression that it's no easy task.

Well, these guys aren't the main characters. They're important to the plot, but there's a seperate protagonist party besides them.

Also, the party have several character flaws(not the Unearthed Arcana type). For example, the Arcane Hierophant has a severe lack of confidence and self-esteem, despite the others repeatingly reminding him that he's one of the strongest mortals in history.

In fact, their high levels actually work against them in peacetime - several people are at least wary of the sheer amount of power they have, so one false move from any of them could have surprisingly large political results. Especially the two "full casters", because they're practically living nukes.

Oh, about the rules... I intend to work by the rules in general, but I'm not above "nudging the dice" once in a while.

[Celestia]

Also, the party have several character flaws(not the Unearthed Arcana type). For example, the Arcane Hierophant has a severe lack of confidence and self-esteem, despite the others repeatingly reminding him that he's one of the strongest mortals in history.
I don't have much to say on the rest, but I do have to comment on this. I'd avoid self-esteem issues. Considering just what a level 24 character can and has gone through, it would require an absurd amount of intentional self delusion.

"I just killed an archfiend and his entire army singlehandedly, but I just don't know if I'm good enough! I wish I was stronger."

It makes no sense. A high level party should experience high level problems.

[CharonsHelper]

I don't have much to say on the rest, but I do have to comment on this. I'd avoid self-esteem issues. Considering just what a level 24 character can and has gone through, it would require an absurd amount of intentional self delusion.

"I just killed an archfiend and his entire army singlehandedly, but I just don't know if I'm good enough! I wish I was stronger."

It makes no sense. A high level party should experience high level problems.

+1

Frankly - I think that an epic level group in anything other than MAYBE a satire isn't going to work well for a story. Not if the abilities are anything like 3.x. It's not just the high power level, it's the scope. If you're following the rules, any halfway decent caster can just pull a silver age Superman and magically (pun intended) pull whatever ability they want out of their hat to deal with essentially any crisis. They should have their own freakin' demi-plane.

I'd also point out that while OOTS was started just as 3.5 came out, but at this point nothing for it has been printed in nearly a decade. It's not that D&D was ever topical - but a comic about 3.5 is now is much less so.

[danielxcutter]

I don't have much to say on the rest, but I do have to comment on this. I'd avoid self-esteem issues. Considering just what a level 24 character can and has gone through, it would require an absurd amount of intentional self delusion.

"I just killed an archfiend and his entire army singlehandedly, but I just don't know if I'm good enough! I wish I was stronger."

It makes no sense. A high level party should experience high level problems.

It's not just problems like that. Those are rather minor. Also, magic doesn't solve everything. It solves a lot, but not everything. Power itself is not the problem.

Plus he does have severe problems. They're spoilery, so I won't say more, but they're worse than you'd think.

[Gruftzwerg]

Human Warlock:
If you really intend to craft a lot with this character think about Chameleon 2 dip for floating feat. And if you take 4 lvls of Blood Magus you can scribe scrolls on your skin and brew potions in your blood (and share with one person if you want). Another 1 lvl dip into Effigy Master can also be nice.

Half-Ork Barbarian:
Imho it's just to flat of a stereotype. Further it should be flashier than just regular pounce builds. I recently did rebuild my Clawlock build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518880-Almighty-Claw-of-Malar-(v2-0)-a-monk-warlock-gish) which relies on pouncing every round (in almost any situation and space) with Stagger (unlimited free direction changes while charging). It involves much predator fluff and skills. Maybe have a look.

Imho if you would go with the mentioned build, you could ditch the Barb and the rogue (since he seems to focus on sneak attack dmg on not on skills), and go for a real "skillmonkey/jack of all trades" on the last spot.

[Celestia]

It's not just problems like that. Those are rather minor. Also, magic doesn't solve everything. It solves a lot, but not everything. Power itself is not the problem.

Plus he does have severe problems. They're spoilery, so I won't say more, but they're worse than you'd think.
Magic does solve everything, especially at his level. He can Shapechange into or Summon/Gate whatever creatures he wants to solve almost any problem. He can craft absurdly over powered epic spells to do anything he can image. And for the rest, he can just Wish up a solution. And as a Theurge, he has spell slots for days. An epic level caster can start killing off the gods if he grows bored. And he has low self-esteem. That's not just a minor problem.

And if his issues really are severe, then I question how he even made it to level 24. If they are as crippling as you seem to be implying, then they'd have gotten him killed ages ago. Epic level characters fighting epic level threats can't afford to make mistakes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The initiator needs to have a maxed out Perform: Weapon Drill skill (CW), all three Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers that allow a Concentration check in place of a saving throw, and a constant effect item of Undersong (SC) which allows him to make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check. This allows him to flourish his sword in place of a saving throw, such as cutting a Fireball in half, shaking it quickly to produce a hum which overpowers a sonic effect, etc.

Edit: Epic Warlock stuff from WotC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a), just in case you needed it. The epic feats offer some unique abilities that may help the narrative.

[danielxcutter]

Magic does solve everything, especially at his level. He can Shapechange into or Summon/Gate whatever creatures he wants to solve almost any problem. He can craft absurdly over powered epic spells to do anything he can image. And for the rest, he can just Wish up a solution. And as a Theurge, he has spell slots for days. An epic level caster can start killing off the gods if he grows bored. And he has low self-esteem. That's not just a minor problem.

I see where I've failed in explaining... His problems stem from things he can't solve with magic. Yes, he can destroy Balors in two rounds and solo the Tarrasque with minimal effort.(He actually did, as a matter of fact). But some things can't be just magicked away. Let's just say that there's no changing the past.

Oh, btw, Epic Spellcasting exists, but it's highly limited. Stuff like Epic Mage Armor or Superb Dispelling is okay, but making a spell that would be really world-changing is highly restricted. As in, "the gods literally step in to stop you" level. Abuse of epic spells is one of the few things that allow a god to manifest themselves on the Prime Material Plane instantly.


And if his issues really are severe, then I question how he even made it to level 24. If they are as crippling as you seem to be implying, then they'd have gotten him killed ages ago. Epic level characters fighting epic level threats can't afford to make mistakes.

Well, they don't limit his combat ability too much. It's... a long story, one that would also be filled with spoilers. Perhaps the term "Iron Woobie" might be better.

[danielxcutter]

The initiator needs to have a maxed out Perform: Weapon Drill skill (CW), all three Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers that allow a Concentration check in place of a saving throw, and a constant effect item of Undersong (SC) which allows him to make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check. This allows him to flourish his sword in place of a saving throw, such as cutting a Fireball in half, shaking it quickly to produce a hum which overpowers a sonic effect, etc.

Ummm... do any of his classes even have Perform as a class skill?


Edit: Epic Warlock stuff from WotC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a), just in case you needed it. The epic feats offer some unique abilities that may help the narrative.

Already was going to use them, but thanks for the link.

[Particle_Man]

One idea (only if it works for the comic) it to modify the warforged to a LN cleric/incarnate/sapphire hierarch. A robot that venerates an oracular giant blue talking rock - what's not to love?

[danielxcutter]

One idea (only if it works for the comic) it to modify the warforged to a LN cleric/incarnate/sapphire hierarch. A robot that venerates an oracular giant blue talking rock - what's not to love?

Amusing, but not exactly what I was aiming for. Still kinda funny, though, so I'll see if I can adapt that idea in some other way. :smallwink::smallwink:

[Celestia]

Let's just say that there's no changing the past.
Actually, yes there is. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) :smallwink:


Oh, btw, Epic Spellcasting exists, but it's highly limited. Stuff like Epic Mage Armor or Superb Dispelling is okay, but making a spell that would be really world-changing is highly restricted. As in, "the gods literally step in to stop you" level. Abuse of epic spells is one of the few things that allow a god to manifest themselves on the Prime Material Plane instantly.
Well, that certainly helps, but 9ths are still enough to solve every problem that ever existed.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, yes there is. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) :smallwink:

...Okay, that is the most borked thing I've ever seen in 3.5. At least Pun-Pun has to jump through a ton of hoops.


Well, that certainly helps, but 9ths are still enough to solve every problem that ever existed.

Hmm... will it? :smallwink:

[Karl Aegis]

Yes, ninth level spells are enough to solve every problem ever. If they aren't I can see why this character would have a mental breakdown. Not a normal mental breakdown, but one where you have illusions wearing mirrors on their faces having deep, philosophical conversations with you all the time. There is no, "Congratulations" at the end of it because there is no end.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean... this is a narrative. I don't think it's going to strain disbelief to conveniently ignore the really campaign-breaking magic-- after all, that's sort of how most D&D games not being played by Ryu or Emperor Tippy function. "I can kill the tarrasque in two moves" is a fine expression of power without destroying narratives; "I Shapechange into a Zolar for infinite Wishes" is a goofy exploit that has no place anywhere but a theorycrafting discussion.

And as I'm understanding it, these guys are sort of like nuclear weapons-- they're so powerful that they basically can't do anything without triggering disastrous countermoves and retaliation, yes?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

There is always the "I just one shot-your army" type for AOE

Use some class with extra damage like SA the EPIC feats Storm Of Throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#stormOfThrows) or Swarm Of Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#swarmOfArrows) and Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) with the spell Guided Shot from Complete Adventurer(some always on item with it).

The spell look like it make you ignore the range penalty of the feat Storm Of Throws\Swarm Of Arrows(your spot check with Distant Shot)

your ranged attacks do not take a penalty due to distance.

I think you can make it with Blood Storm (EX) of a LV10 Bloodstorm Blade with Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)

[danielxcutter]

I mean... this is a narrative. I don't think it's going to strain disbelief to conveniently ignore the really campaign-breaking magic-- after all, that's sort of how most D&D games not being played by Ryu or Emperor Tippy function. "I can kill the tarrasque in two moves" is a fine expression of power without destroying narratives; "I Shapechange into a Zolar for infinite Wishes" is a goofy exploit that has no place anywhere but a theorycrafting discussion.

Yes, indeed. There's powerful, and there's stupidly powerful. Guess which one I'm aiming for.


And as I'm understanding it, these guys are sort of like nuclear weapons-- they're so powerful that they basically can't do anything without triggering disastrous countermoves and retaliation, yes?

Finally, someone who's noticed this part. I wouldn't say that they can't move at all, but if they openly do something big, then there's going to be a few problems. Especially the casters.