Help finding WBL and humanoid creature stat modifiers

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

Having a little trouble with the DMG and MM at the moment, probably because I am coming from 3.5e and I am just used to how those books are written.

From the looks of it, 5e isnt, at present, designed for a magic item economy like 3.5e was, and also tries to simplify creature stat blocks. All great things, no issues there.

However, with the DMG, I am now struggling to get my head around a players recommended WBL, particularly with regards to magic items. Am I missing something? Is there a page number someone can pass me? What are the magic item milestones (when should players be getting their first +1 weapon, when should they first get 3 attuned items, etc, in a low, medium and high magic game)?

With regards to the MM, humanoid monsters can, as with 3.5e, be advanced by character level. I could have a goblin fighter 2 for example. Right? If so, where could I find the base creature stat advancement, or an intelligent creatures "level adjust"? Im sure that info is in the MM or the DMG somewhere, but I cant seem to find it.

Thanks

[DivisibleByZero]

I can help.
This isn't 3.5, and you won't find either of the things that you're looking for.
Sorry to be the bearer of what you'll probably consider to be bad news.

[Ninja_Prawn]

However, with the DMG, I am now struggling to get my head around a players recommended WBL, particularly with regards to magic items. Am I missing something? Is there a page number someone can pass me? What are the magic item milestones (when should players be getting their first +1 weapon, when should they first get 3 attuned items, etc, in a low, medium and high magic game)?

The party line is "there is no WBL." In theory, PCs should be fine with never receiving any money or magic items at all. YMMV.

The only RAW advice you're going to find is on DMG 38.


With regards to the MM, humanoid monsters can, as with 3.5e, be advanced by character level. I could have a goblin fighter 2 for example. Right? If so, where could I find the base creature stat advancement, or an intelligent creatures "level adjust"? Im sure that info is in the MM or the DMG somewhere, but I cant seem to find it.

...the RAW doesn't give you much support here either. It sort of says "you are allowed to give monsters class levels" but never explains how to implement it. The best advice I can give you is just to write your own stat blocks from the ground up using DMG 274.

And DivisibleByZero is right. 5e may look like a mash-up of 2e and 3.5, but in some very important ways it isn't. You'll be much happier in the long term if you can forget what you used to know and embrace the 5e way, rather than trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks for the page numbers :)

Yeah, I know I shouldnt go into it wanting 3.5e. Still love the old system, want to play it, struggle to find people still willing in my local area (either all old 3.5e players who are bored and want to move up to 5e, or all new players who dont believe me when I say 3.5e has some fun mechanics). So moving on up, trying to embrace it.

Was just a bit confused about how to judge loot and things. How much I should be giving as money, how much as items to be sold, and how much as items they will want to keep. That sort of thing. Guess I will learn as I go along.

The statblocks, that just confuses me. Seems like such an obvious thing to have, regardless of the system. "Hmm, this storm giant isnt quite enough of a challenge. Lets make them a cleric" or "Hey, not every goblin in this settlement is average. Just like other races, they have hunters, guards, soldiers, priests and thieves."

In your experiences, should you be using numbers to make encounters with the same monster scale with level?

[DivisibleByZero]

In your experiences, should you be using numbers to make encounters with the same monster scale with level?

Can you please rephrase the question so that we can try to give you the answer that you're looking for?

[Albions_Angel]

Ok, say my players are in a particular region of the world that is harassed by Goblins. Goblins are low level, sort of first battles territory for adventurers. They deal with them. Level up. This provokes a response from the goblins. The cycle continues.

Should I just be ramping up the number of goblins (in this situation, I am not saying I will have a 100% goblin campaign) as the party levels, rather than, as I would have done if this was a different system, making the individuals of the goblin bands harder? Or should I be throwing out any ideas of having non-player races as persistent enemies, instead leaving player races as the only permanent sources of trouble? In this example, should I replace a tribe of troublesome goblins with a tribe of troublesome halflings, and keep goblins as wandering one-off encounters?

[Fayd]

Well, while WBL doesn't officially exist, I did find this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402507-Deconstructing-5e-Typical-Wealth-by-Level). I've used it with no great problems.

I have no experience with your other question, sorry.

[DivisibleByZero]

You could ramp up the numbers. That's one way to do it. And with Bounded Accuracy, those goblins, in enough numbers, can still pose a threat to the PCs at any level.
You could use player races are the sources as well. That's another option.
You could use the guidelines in the DMG to create goblins that have certain abilities, such as spellcasting to create a goblin mage, and follow the guidelines for figuring out its CR. That's a third option.
There are more options as well, such as using different monsters with higher CRs that have goblin minions, etc, but I don't think that's where you're going with this.

The bottom line is that monsters and PCs are created differently. This is unlike 3.5 that you're used to, where they were created using the same rules.
Play with the rules in the MM/DMG for designing your own monsters, and for figuring out what that monster's CR should be.
That's where your real answer lies.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You could ramp up the numbers. That's one way to do it. And with Bounded Accuracy, those goblins, in enough numbers, can still pose a threat to the PCs at any level.
You could use player races are the sources as well. That's another option.
You could use the guidelines in the DMG to create goblins that have certain abilities, such as spellcasting to create a goblin mage, and follow the guidelines for figuring out its CR. That's a third option.
There are more options as well, such as using different monsters with higher CRs that have goblin minions, etc, but I don't think that's where you're going with this.

The bottom line is that monsters and PCs are created differently. This is unlike 3.5 that you're used to, where they were created using the same rules.
Play with the rules in the MM/DMG for designing your own monsters, and for figuring out what that monster's CR should be.
That's where your real answer lies.

I second all of this.

As an example of "[using] the guidelines in the DMG to create goblins that have certain abilities, such as spellcasting to create a goblin mage," I made a thing (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u0jm3ysj495hky/Kobolds.pdf?dl=0). Once you get comfortable with the monster creation rules, you can knock these out at the table while your players take a toilet break.

[DivisibleByZero]

I second all of this.

As an example of "[using] the guidelines in the DMG to create goblins that have certain abilities, such as spellcasting to create a goblin mage," I made a thing (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u0jm3ysj495hky/Kobolds.pdf?dl=0). Once you get comfortable with the monster creation rules, you can knock these out at the table while your players take a toilet break.

And I, in turn, second this.
At first glance, those rules seem complicated. Once you actually understand them, it becomes easy and intuitive enough that you really can churn them out almost on the fly.

[rbstr]

Volo's Guide to Monsters also has a whole thing about goblins and goblinoids. There's a bit of a stratified society where in a host you basically end up with Hobgoblins in charge, Bugbears as shocktroopers and lowly goblin masses.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

As far as wealth by level, since you cannot buy magic items in 5e, there is no real need to police the wealth of players as long as you keep the following in mind

Wizards eat wealth as they scribe their spell books ( Given the chance they will use all the party wealth and the extra become spell scrolls ) No class needs money like the wizard ( I mean they don't really need money, you can bet that they will want every spell in the book in their book)

[Vogonjeltz]

Hi all

Having a little trouble with the DMG and MM at the moment, probably because I am coming from 3.5e and I am just used to how those books are written.

From the looks of it, 5e isnt, at present, designed for a magic item economy like 3.5e was, and also tries to simplify creature stat blocks. All great things, no issues there.

However, with the DMG, I am now struggling to get my head around a players recommended WBL, particularly with regards to magic items. Am I missing something? Is there a page number someone can pass me? What are the magic item milestones (when should players be getting their first +1 weapon, when should they first get 3 attuned items, etc, in a low, medium and high magic game)?

With regards to the MM, humanoid monsters can, as with 3.5e, be advanced by character level. I could have a goblin fighter 2 for example. Right? If so, where could I find the base creature stat advancement, or an intelligent creatures "level adjust"? Im sure that info is in the MM or the DMG somewhere, but I cant seem to find it.

Thanks

Starting Equipment sidebar is found on DMG 38. It isn't the same amount of equipment that a party actually could gather if they were to fight their way to that level, however, using the treasure tables in the DMG.
If you want to have a PC playing as a monster, that's in Volo's Guide to Monsters (pg 118-120) They are not, however, balanced as the standard races.

[xanderh]

Take a look at page 282 of the DMG. It has ability modifiers and features for some NPC races, and is pretty much exactly what you're asking for.
In terms of loot, don't sweat it. The game balance won't suffer from PCs not getting magic items, and if they get more than they're supposed to, you can just adjust the difficulty up a bit.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Take a look at page 282 of the DMG. It has ability modifiers and features for some NPC races, and is pretty much exactly what you're asking for.

A health warning: using PC builds as monsters/NPCs is a risky business in 5e. PCs have lots of fiddly abilities that monsters don't need, and come with enough resources to get through a whole adventuring day (while monsters are typically only around for one encounter). PCs also have less HP and higher damage outputs than the monsters they face, so they become very glass-cannony when used in the monster role. It's hard to put an accurate CR on PCs; the relationship between CR and ECL is non-linear and varies by class.

I would always advise designing monsters from the ground up as the 'gold standard'. I know a lot of people don't have the time or inclination to do that, so as of this week, I've decided to make a resolution to publish at least one homebrewed stat block every Sunday for a year. Follow me on tumblr (https://nailsofvecna.tumblr.com/) if you're interested!

[blurneko]

There are a few things to take note of. As others have said, 5e is balanced such that a party can go their whole life without magic items and still be perfectly functional. Attempting to give players crazy amounts of magic items as the previous editions did will quickly make combat trivial and it will start becoming an arms race between the DM and Players as you try to keep combat challenging and interesting. I am not saying magic items are bad. Just that giving +3 swords with +1d8 force damage might make games less fun rather than more.

Regarding adjusting monsters, it is really up to you. Just be aware that adding more features to existing statblocks can be quite significant. Now I love homebrewed monsters and I especially love fights with gimmicks where you can't just click attack to win. That being said, you might want to upgrade monsters slowly? Really just to get used to how impactful certain features are. If you are new to 5e, try not to add class features or spellcasting to monsters and expect little to change.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to create monsters with "PC classes", you can either take one of the NPC statblocks of the appropriate class, then either apply the racial modifiers found in the Volo's, or just change the stats to be more like the "normal" version of the monster.

What a Giant Archmage? Take the Archmage and adds the features that make the Giant a Giant.

[xanderh]

A health warning: using PC builds as monsters/NPCs is a risky business in 5e. PCs have lots of fiddly abilities that monsters don't need, and come with enough resources to get through a whole adventuring day (while monsters are typically only around for one encounter). PCs also have less HP and higher damage outputs than the monsters they face, so they become very glass-cannony when used in the monster role. It's hard to put an accurate CR on PCs; the relationship between CR and ECL is non-linear and varies by class.

I would always advise designing monsters from the ground up as the 'gold standard'.

I agree completely with everything you said, but I just wanted to point the OP towards the page I mentioned because the information they're looking for actually does exist. Whether they should use it or not is another matter, and one I feel has been adequately discussed by now.