A 20th level martial class vs a party of 5 9th level characters

[Douche]

A single non-caster class (therefore, Wizard, Warlock, Cleric, Sorcerer are banned. Half casters are okay) at level 20, versus your typical band of adventurers at 9th level. I'm being purposefully vague on the composition of party, but assume it's not totally stacked with Wizards or something who will just fly around & cast Hold Person until they succeed. It should be something you can conceivably imagine people forming (Warrior, Ranger, Spellcaster, Healer, Thief... Whatever) not a gimmick team.

The 20th level has just entered the castle of King Henry VIII and slain the king before the eyes of all. Everyone else either fled in terror or was cut down just the same. The castle is now empty & the 20th level sits upon the throne. The only force who can possibly stop him is the typical band of adventurers that just happened to stroll through town... But according to generic RPG conventions, no NPCs will help them aside from letting them buy generic adventuring goods at reduced cost.

Both teams are being controlled by human beings who will meta-game (within reason) and will take intelligent, strategic action. One party is incapable of hearing or eavesdropping on the other out-of-game though.

Can the party of 9th level adventurers bring justice to the town & stop the mad warrior?

Bonus: if 9th level is simply incapable of beating a 20th level, what's the lowest level that a party of 5 could be to succeed?

[Armored Walrus]

Without any analysis at all I would say they can beat him simply due to the fact that the single 20th level character has no lair actions, legendary actions or minions. The action economy is totally against him. The party should only have to spread out and plink at him until they get hits.

[nickl_2000]

I would have to agree with Walrus. In a typical party of 5 you would likely have a cleric and 2 other spell casters.

Round 1, caster casts Wall to lock the Martial character in and make it waste the first round. The other casters start slinging Hold Person, Dominate Person, Polymorph and other such spells until one of them lands and the 1 enemy becomes easy to massacre.

[Armored Walrus]

Looking at it another way. I went on roll20 and quickly put together a level 20 champion and gave him shield +3, Plate +3, Longsword +3, 20 str, 20con, entered his resulting stats in the CR calculator, and the guy is a CR 13 monster. So some of the party will die, facing him, but again, I still think they can stay at range and take him down eventually, unless he can reach them and burn his two action surges to take the whole party out before they can move away.

Edit: His Wisdom saves are only +2, so Hold person is going to cause him to be destroyed pretty quickly, actually.

[User_Undefined]

I think which martial class is also important. A fight against a thief will be very different from one against a berserker.

[Typhon]

Depending on players and a ton of other variables, I am not sure. A couple common and uncommon magic items and time to familiarize oneself with the combat chamber could swing this for the 20th level martial easily. Same goes for the party though, if they learn the layout of the combat chamber and enter from multiple points or in a particular fashion.

Either way I see at least one or two party members going down before the 20th level.

[Specter]

Sure they can. Actually, they will, unless there is some shift in scenario in favor of the 20.

Considering a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and (bonus) Bard, the damage three of those guys can do coupled with the other's support to turn the 20 upside down should clear him out in 3 or 4 turns.

[LeonBH]

Without exact stats of the level 20 character, it's hard to say. But here is the XP budget of five level 9 characters:

Easy: 2750 XP
Medium: 5500 XP
Hard: 8000 XP
Deadly: 12000 XP

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK.

A level 20 character will have a lot of attack power. If they get even one turn, they can drop one or two of those players immediately. With Action Surge (if they were a fighter), they can drop three or four. A Ranger will similarly have four attacks with Swift Quiver. A Paladin has only two attacks, but has Divine Smite. Barbarians will have four attacks too with the Frenzy Path (including bonus action and reaction), while they will be incredibly tanky with the Bear Totem path and thus hard to kill.

If the party gets a drop on him, maybe they can take him out. But the more likely scenario, if metagaming within reason is allowed, is the party dies.

[Shining Wrath]

Action economy is on the side of the party. Mobility is likely on the side of the party unless the L20 martial is a monk or a barbarian.

L20 has nova ability in some fashion (action surge, monk maneuvers, Sneak Attack or gods help the L9 target, a Smite).

If the L9 folks can keep the L20 guy from closing quickly they ought to wear him down.

[Knaight]

The 20th level character is basically screwed in a straight fight. Hit and run alpha strike tactics could work - a 20th level fighter with Action Surge could potentially get 8 attacks off in the first turn of the fight, and because of how movement works if they do this in a sufficiently labyrinthine area they could get in, strike, get out, and then vanish into the terrain; managing that a couple of times could easily turn the fight. If they get attacked in the throne room though, action advantage prevails.

[Shining Wrath]

Without exact stats of the level 20 character, it's hard to say. But here is the XP budget of five level 9 characters:

Easy: 2750 XP
Medium: 5500 XP
Hard: 8000 XP
Deadly: 12000 XP

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK.

A level 20 character will have a lot of attack power. If they get even one turn, they can drop one or two of those players immediately. With Action Surge (if they were a fighter), they can drop three or four. A Ranger will similarly have four attacks with Swift Quiver. A Paladin has only two attacks, but has Divine Smite. Barbarians will have four attacks too with the Frenzy Path (including bonus action and reaction), while they will be incredibly tanky with the Bear Totem path and thus hard to kill.

If the party gets a drop on him, maybe they can take him out. But the more likely scenario, if metagaming within reason is allowed, is the party dies.

Adjust for single enemy = divide by 2 = 12,500, more or less.
The battle is, in fact, epic.

[Armored Walrus]

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK.

That's just it, though, a level 20 character is not a CR 20 creature. A CR 20 creature is likely to have legendary actions, lair actions, legendary resists, and bonuses to every saving throw. A level 20 character - unless magic items change the scenario - is only proficient in two saving throws,and has really crappy saves on everything else. So for my level 20 champion example, his Wis save is only +2. A level 9 spellcaster will nail him down as easily as nailing down a goblin, and then everyone else can proceed to beat on him 'til he dies. Granted, his AC is 26, and his HPs are 200+, so it's gonna take awhile, but it will get done.

Edit: I guess two uses of Indomitable count as legendary resists.

[Specter]

Let's sling in some hypotheticals.

20th-level martial is an Oathbreaker Paladin.
Party is Battlemaster, Thief, Life Cleric, Evoker Wizard and Lore Bard.

The bad guy can do burst damage equivalent to 2d6+4d8(staggering smite)+5d8(smite)+1d8(improved divine smite)+5+5(charisma). That's an average of 69, in one attack. That should outright murder those level 9 guys, right? But the Wizard is blasting him on DEX saves, and the Cleric just Healing Worded his friend to 1hp so he could act, and the Fighter Action Surged and spent dice, and the rogue is creeping in for the sneak attack, and the Bard has inspired someone and cast some Animate Objects or whatever. Start again.

Basically, the villain can bring one of them down at a time, which doesn't help much against five guys who can lift him up.

[D-naras]

I'd use a Half-Orc Ancients Paladin for the 20 level warrior. Great saves, resistance to magic,Destructive Wave as a bonus action, 10 hp regen per round, Undying Sentinel and the Half Orc trait will propably kill most parties.

Assuming standard array, the paladin would have 20 Str and Cha and 14 Con, amounting to +5 on all saves and 144 hit points. Defense fighting style and +3 plate, shield and sword for 27 AC. Attacks for +14, 1d8+8 +1d8 radiant damage.
First round activate capstone ability and fire a DC 19 Destructive wave as a bonus action dealing 10d6 to the PCs that it can get close enough.
2nd round she regenerates 10 hp for free, fires another Destructive wave and attacks the squishiest PC, smiting using 3rd level slots, propably killing at least one.
3rd round she can spend 1 action to lay on hands for up to 200 hp if needed and bonus action Ice Storm.
From then on repeat round 2 and 3 until victorious.

The party has to get her to 0 then hit her 2 more times before they can defeat her. Plenty of time to Lay on hands for full, depending on initiative.

[Flashy]

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK..

This part is not accurate. There is no transparency between player and monster statblocks in 5e, and 20th level characters generally land in the CR 10-14 range (as demonstrated above in this thread).

[Dr.Samurai]

Douche, is the level 20 rolling stats or using point buy or standard array?

[LeonBH]

Adjust for single enemy = divide by 2 = 12,500, more or less.
The battle is, in fact, epic.

No, you do not divide by 2 when the enemy is just by itself. Look at DMG pg 82.

You multiply by 2 when there's a pair of them.


That's just it, though, a level 20 character is not a CR 20 creature. A CR 20 creature is likely to have legendary actions, lair actions, legendary resists, and bonuses to every saving throw. A level 20 character - unless magic items change the scenario - is only proficient in two saving throws,and has really crappy saves on everything else. So for my level 20 champion example, his Wis save is only +2. A level 9 spellcaster will nail him down as easily as nailing down a goblin, and then everyone else can proceed to beat on him 'til he dies. Granted, his AC is 26, and his HPs are 200+, so it's gonna take awhile, but it will get done.

Edit: I guess two uses of Indomitable count as legendary resists.


This part is not accurate. There is no transparency between player and monster statblocks in 5e, and 20th level characters generally land in the CR 10-14 range (as demonstrated above in this thread).

I can make a Paladin/Sorcerer, at level 20, who is CR 19 with point buy, even without legendary resistances or actions. It depends on how you choose to play the NPC. The final CR is just the average of your offensive CR and defensive CR. And a level 20 PC will very likely have a CR 20+ offensively, and a CR 15~ defensively.

Hold Monster allows a save round per round. And an NPC at 1 HP is just as dangerous as the same NPC at full HP. I'm proposing, it's possible that their offensive capabilities can be so high as to be able to drop the PCs -- more than one PC -- in only one round. Even if it's the only round they get.

[Armored Walrus]

I think the answer is "it depends on what magic items the DM hands out" If you restrict the experiment to simply base class mechanics and mundane equipment, I think the level 20 dies because his level advantage is not enough power to overcome having 1/5 of the actions available per round, and he can be kited.

[Armored Walrus]

I'm proposing, it's possible that their offensive capabilities can be so high as to be able to drop the PCs -- more than one PC -- in only one round. Even if it's the only round they get.

I agree, some members of that party will die - or at least go unconscious. But the level 20 can't drop all of them in the same round unless they all stand in an area of effect. Plus, the point about a 1hp enemy being just as dangerous as a full hp enemy applies to the PCs as well.

I think the party definitely has the potential to lose the fight. I think the party definitely will have a hard time keeping the NPC from getting away if it doesn't choose to stand and fight. But I think if the requirement is that they stay in the room and no one leaves until one side or the other is dead, I'd put my money on the PCs. (unless I knew the *players* well enough to know they would be likely to screw it up, of course :P )

[NNescio]

The only viable martial here is a 1/2 or 1/3 caster with access to Dimension Door (Misty Step may work, but it's kinda iffy if the party also has some means to block LoS), because otherwise it's GG the moment the party lands an ongoing damaging effect + Wall of Force (like, say, Heat Metal from the Druid or Bard, or even a simple Spiritual Weapon from a Cleric). Heck, the damaging effect might not even be necessary if the Wizard is allowed to slightly shift his Wall of Force slightly off-grid to let ranged attacks and targeted spells hit the martial's feet.

Even then, the martial still has a significant disadvantage in action economy. His best hope is to use either high mobility or stealth (or both) to split up the party and defeat them in detail. In any case, his first priority is to nova the Wizard first because the latter's is likely the most dangerous with many ways to deny the martial actions without even allowing a save.

Banishment is also a significant threat (Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers and Warlocks can all have that by level 7, and even the Bard can grab it via Magical Secrets), so any martial with a weak Charisma save has to be wary of it (less so if they have Lucky and/or Indomitable), since it's basically Time Stop ++ for the whole party (49 free turns, really) if the martial fails his save, after which the party is free to arrange the battlefield in whichever way to screw him over when he comes back (beartraps, ball bearings, etc. Plus the aforementioned Heat Metal/Spiritual Weapon + Wall of Force, but as readied actions, so initiative order and range is less of an issue so the combo is guaranteed to fire).

[Ruslan]

Sure they can. Actually, they will, unless there is some shift in scenario in favor of the 20.

Considering a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric and (bonus) Bard, the damage three of those guys can do coupled with the other's support to turn the 20 upside down should clear him out in 3 or 4 turns.
Only if he doesn't clear them out first. A good 20th level melee should be able to deal 100+ damage per round. A 9th level Fighter has about ... 85 hit points?

[Specter]

Only if he doesn't clear them out first. A good 20th level melee should be able to deal 100+ damage per round. A 9th level Fighter has about ... 85 hit points?

I've made a sample analysis above. Any other discussion will need more details.

[MadBear]

I'm thinking a good paladin/revised deepstalker ranger/assassin could pull it off against the party. They just need to use hit and run tactics. With 20 dex, smite, 3 attacks (2 base, + 1 deepstalker ranger ability) auto crit, they can take out the low dex players right away (probably go wizard->cleric->marital->rogue).

In fact with misty step, they could get past most barriers that the 9th level adventurers could throw in their way.

The big advantage they have to hit&run tactics over low level players is that their attacks can kill in one hit, where 9th level characters won't likely be dealing killing blows. So when they seperate, the paladin can use LOH, to gain back lost HP, while even at full, the PC's are at risk of instakills.

Not to say it's a guarentee, because of course not, but I'd say overall, they have a higher chance then the 9th levels.

(I'd also assume that they have more/better magic gear that'd give them an edge in AC/Attack bonus)

[Lonely Tylenol]

This answer has a pretty definite solution: observe the Champion or Warlord NPCs from Volo's Guide to Monsters. I'm away from book, but I recall both of their Hit Dice approaching 20, with a pretty favorable stat array (which makes up at least a little bit for the d8 Hit Dice; if you're not satisfied, bump the Con by 2 to get equivalent HP to a d10 Hit Dice, and by 4 to get equivalent HP to a d12 Hit Dice), and at least some features from, I believe, the Fighter on both counts. I think their proficiency bonus is only +4, but I think their Strength exceeds 20, which balances out the to-hit issue a bit. You can give them the treasure hoard of a Challenge 9 creature and make them wear it, so magic items supplement their ability to fight, but not ridiculously so in terms of Challenge rating (multiple +3 items of each type). Is this creature fundamentally impossible for a party of 9th-level creatures to beat? Likely not.

Now, give that NPC the other features of, say, Champion or Battlemaster Fighter which they are missing (Action Surge, Indomitable, either Supremacy dice and maneuvers or broadened critical hit range). Does this single change up the Challenge to impossible levels of difficulty for a 9th-level party? It might bump it up once on the difficulty scale, but it's probably roughly the same difficulty overall.

The fact of the matter is, the way NPC stat blocks scale in terms of difficulty, a group of 9th-level adventurers fighting a single 20th-level martial character and winning sounds kind of like the default assumption for the game.

[LeonBH]

I've made a sample analysis above. Any other discussion will need more details.


The bad guy can do burst damage equivalent to 2d6+4d8(staggering smite)+5d8(smite)+1d8(improved divine smite)+5+5(charisma). That's an average of 69, in one attack. That should outright murder those level 9 guys, right? But the Wizard is blasting him on DEX saves, and the Cleric just Healing Worded his friend to 1hp so he could act, and the Fighter Action Surged and spent dice, and the rogue is creeping in for the sneak attack, and the Bard has inspired someone and cast some Animate Objects or whatever. Start again.

The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.

The Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue have their go. They can't drop a level 20 character in 1 round. If those guys try to revive the Cleric or Bard, that was their action to administer a potion.

Bad guy hits the Wizard and Rogue (or Cleric or Bard, if those guys were revived via potion). Now we only have the Fighter left who's up.

Then, Banishing Smite him a few times.

Edit:

Tacking on a few extra things. Had he multiclassed to Fighter 2, he would have had Action Surge too. So his first turn equates to four attacks, which drops the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, and Rogue with 1 hit each (but priority to Cleric, Bard, Wizard, and Rogue in that order).

Also, as a Paladin, he has +CHA to all his saves. At 20th level this is probably +5. Resilient (Wisdom) gives his Wis saves +6 just for proficiency, for a total of +11 before his Wisdom modifier. He would have a fair chance to resist the Wizard's spells.

[jas61292]

The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.

The Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue have their go. They can't drop a level 20 character in 1 round. If those guys try to revive the Cleric or Bard, that was their action to administer a potion.

Bad guy hits the Wizard and Rogue (or Cleric or Bard, if those guys were revived via potion). Now we only have the Fighter left who's up.

Then, Banishing Smite him a few times.

Edit:

Tacking on a few extra things. Had he multiclassed to Fighter 2, he would have had Action Surge too. So his first turn equates to four attacks, which drops the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, and Rogue with 1 hit each (but priority to Cleric, Bard, Wizard, and Rogue in that order).

Yeah... if the party is dumb and has no tactics. You are using a great weapon user, and therefore a strength character. As such, the bard, rogue, and possibly wizard are likely to be going first, and the other two pretty much have an even shot at it too. Assuming one of the casters doesn't outright incapacitate the NPC in the first round, at the very least they can tactically place themselves to make your scenario impossible.

[Rynjin]

The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.

Or, assuming the party aren't complete idiots who parked themselves in a neat semi-circle around the kingslayer he either hits the Cleric and potentially drops him, or gets Sentinel'd by the party's Battlemaster and has to take that target. Or, most likely, they're on the opposite side of a pretty big room and he has to Rush with his 20 ft. speed to even get in striking range. The melee characters attack, the spellcasters back off and cast their spells and god help the poor bastard if there's a mobile fighter like Rogue (Swashbuckler) or Monk in the party because best case scenario he gets plinked over the course of however many rounds and dies, or gets deep dicked by the combined might of 5 people in a game where action economy is still king...but he can't boost his AC to Hammer levels by any means.

[Knaight]

The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.

Maybe they hit, maybe they don't. Even with a magic weapon they're attacking at +14 tops, and with magic in effect the cleric could easily have an AC of 22 (+1 Full Plate, +1 Shield) without even getting into spell defenses. The bard meanwhile is likely to have AC 17 (Studded Armor +1, Dex 18), again before taking magic defenses into account. Then there's the assumption that the low level party is clumped together tightly enough to even reach them all in one round. This isn't 3.x, bounded accuracy makes guaranteed hits much harder.

[LeonBH]

Yeah... if the party is dumb and has no tactics. You are using a great weapon user, and therefore a strength character. As such, the bard, rogue, and possibly wizard are likely to be going first, and the other two pretty much have an even shot at it too. Assuming one of the casters doesn't outright incapacitate the NPC in the first round, at the very least they can tactically place themselves to make your scenario impossible.

I'm not using one. I was responding to someone else's analysis who used a strength character, to show their analysis was not a fair one either. Flipping your argument around onto them, it only works if the level 20 character is an idiot.

An optimized Level 20 character will likely have a decent Dex, perhaps even the Alert feat. If you switched the class to Barbarian from Paladin, you still have a Strength character with crazy Initiative. Alternatively, Matt Mercer's Gunslinger subclass who gets to add proficiency bonus into initiative checks.


Or, assuming the party aren't complete idiots who parked themselves in a neat semi-circle around the kingslayer he either hits the Cleric and potentially drops him, or gets Sentinel'd by the party's Battlemaster and has to take that target. Or, most likely, they're on the opposite side of a pretty big room and he has to Rush with his 20 ft. speed to even get in striking range. The melee characters attack, the spellcasters back off and cast their spells and god help the poor bastard if there's a mobile fighter like Rogue (Swashbuckler) or Monk in the party because best case scenario he gets plinked over the course of however many rounds and dies, or gets deep dicked by the combined might of 5 people in a game where action economy is still king...but he can't boost his AC to Hammer levels by any means

If they're all split apart in a favorable way for the party, it's also reasonable to say they could be arranged in a way that's favorable to the NPC.

Seems like an arbitrary discussion at this point.


Maybe they hit, maybe they don't. Even with a magic weapon they're attacking at +14 tops, and with magic in effect the cleric could easily have an AC of 22 (+1 Full Plate, +1 Shield) without even getting into spell defenses. The bard meanwhile is likely to have AC 17 (Studded Armor +1, Dex 18), again before taking magic defenses into account. Then there's the assumption that the low level party is clumped together tightly enough to even reach them all in one round. This isn't 3.x, bounded accuracy makes guaranteed hits much harder.

Well... what if the party also misses all their attacks on the NPC?

[jas61292]

If they're all split apart in a favorable way for the party, it's also reasonable to say they could be arranged in a way that's favorable to the NPC.

Seems like an arbitrary discussion at this point

But when the conversation turns from "can a generic level 20 martial character beat a party of level 9s" to "can a level 20 martial character, specifically designed and optimized to take on a party of level 9 characters, take a party of level 9 characters, when the situation is advantageous to them," it is pretty revealing.

[KorvinStarmast]

I find dubious the premise that a 20th level martial character will be alone.
If it's a male, he's likely to at least have groupies, likely a love interest (women are attracted to wealth and fame) and a few henchmen/hirelings around.

Then again, the 20th level might be very anti social, which is reason enough for 5 murder hoboes to go out and kill him. :smallbiggrin:

[Lonely Tylenol]

But when the conversation turns from "can a generic level 20 martial character beat a party of level 9s" to "can a level 20 martial character, specifically designed and optimized to take on a party of level 9 characters, take a party of level 9 characters, when the situation is advantageous to them," it is pretty revealing.

Agreed. I still maintain that such a character should be closer to the Champion or Warlord NPC blocks from Volo rather than a specific build, which gives you an eyeball test of what the PCs should be able to do.

[NNescio]

An optimized Level 20 character will likely have a decent Dex, perhaps even the Alert feat. If you switched the class to Barbarian from Paladin, you still have a Strength character with crazy Initiative.

You need Paladin. Barbs can be taken out by Spiritual Weapon + Wall of Force if they lose initiative (or fail to down enough casters because they miss or don't deal enough damage). Also highly susceptible to Banishment.


Alternatively, Matt Mercer's Gunslinger subclass who gets to add proficiency bonus into initiative checks.

Bring 3rd party classes (Gunslinger is arguably OP because it's basically Battlemaster+ with some Champion features) into play, and you open the floodgates to Mystics, Theurges, Loremasters, et al for the party. And maybe some Middle of Vecna OP classes while we're at it.


Well... what if the party also misses all their attacks on the NPC?

They have more attacks, they are less likely to miss. The more important thing is that if any two casters get their turns and the martial doesn't have teleports then it's GG for him, no save allowed or attack rolls required.

(And even teleports can be risky affair because Clerics/Bards have Silence and quite a few number of spellcasters have the means to deny LoS for Misty Step.)

[LeonBH]

But when the conversation turns from "can a generic level 20 martial character beat a party of level 9s" to "can a level 20 martial character, specifically designed and optimized to take on a party of level 9 characters, take a party of level 9 characters, when the situation is advantageous to them," it is pretty revealing.

My opinion there is, yes, the level 20 character who is optimized to defeat those level 9 PCs can defeat them, even if the positioning is advantageous to the PCs.

But that wasn't what we were asking. And I'm not sure I can convince you otherwise. Any specific examples anyone gives will always be subjective, and geared towards the specific biases of the person offering that example. My counterexample is coming under fire, but it was a counterexample to an existing example. Does that invalidate it? No, it's just showing there are cases where you can provide a counterexample to a counterexample.

Simply, it depends on the level 20 character in question. What is their CR rating? Yes, it can be calculated even for creatures with class levels. Then compare that to the party's XP budget. The result will determine if the party can handle it or not.



You need Paladin. Barbs can be taken out by Spiritual Weapon + Wall of Force if they lose initiative (or fail to down enough casters because they miss or don't deal enough damage). Also highly susceptible to Banishment.

A Barbarian with the Alert feat may not lose initiative, though. Granted, even if he does, if they're trapped in a Wall of Force, he's not necessarily dead. The same goes with Banishment. He can kill the squishies with his 4 attacks per round (with Frenzy path), or else be very hard to kill with Bear Totem path.

I'm not arguing that any level 20 Barbarian can kill any group of 5 PCs. I'm also not arguing that any group of 5 PCs can kill any level 20 Barbarian. It's not a thing that makes sense to argue about.


YBring 3rd party classes (Gunslinger is arguably OP because it's basically Battlemaster+ with some Champion features) into play, and you open the floodgates to Mystics, Theurges, Loremasters, et al for the party. And maybe some Middle of Vecna OP classes while we're at it.

I agree. Though in this largely exaggerated case, you would have to heavily favor this case to the level 20 character, once they get Epic Boons, stats that can reach 30, etc.


YThey have more attacks, they are less likely to miss. The more important thing is that if any two casters get their turns and the martial doesn't have teleports then it's GG for him, no save allowed or attack rolls required.

It's still based on a die roll. Any of them can hit or miss. The thing that was said to me was "but the Paladin can miss"; the proper reply is "so can the PCs, they miss, too". Because, if one side hits in a game of rocket tag, the side that hit first wins.

[MadBear]

I'll also point out that the Paladin can cast Banishment using a 5th level slot to send 2 of the PC's to another plane for 1 minute. During this time the action economy won't hurt the Paladin as much. Bonus points if you banish the secondary healers, and drop the cleric with your first attack, kill him outright with the 2nd, and proceed to bonus action misty step away with the body of the dead cleric (to prevent any raise dead).

[Dr.Samurai]

OP is vague on the 9th level party members, so we can't assume what spells they have access to. I mean really, there just isn't enough to go on. The answer to the OP is yes, a 20th level character could defeat a party of 9th level characters. But the answer is meaningless because it is only technical. We don't know the builds for *any* of the characters involved.

I suspect the half casters are at an advantage in this, but I like non-casters so:

Frenzied Berserker gets:

4 attacks (2 Extra Attack, 1 Bonus, 1 Reaction)
Half Damage from Weapons
Advantage on Initiative
Immunity to being Charmed/Frightened
Can't go below 1hp w/ Con Save
+4 Str/Con

[mephnick]

Level 9 PC's have some pretty good nova abilities of their own. A single hold person providing auto-crits is going to burn that 200+ HP really, really fast.

[Specter]

The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.
The Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue have their go. They can't drop a level 20 character in 1 round. If those guys try to revive the Cleric or Bard, that was their action to administer a potion.
Bad guy hits the Wizard and Rogue (or Cleric or Bard, if those guys were revived via potion). Now we only have the Fighter left who's up.
Then, Banishing Smite him a few times.

Edit:
Tacking on a few extra things. Had he multiclassed to Fighter 2, he would have had Action Surge too. So his first turn equates to four attacks, which drops the Wizard, Cleric, Bard, and Rogue with 1 hit each (but priority to Cleric, Bard, Wizard, and Rogue in that order).
Also, as a Paladin, he has +CHA to all his saves. At 20th level this is probably +5. Resilient (Wisdom) gives his Wis saves +6 just for proficiency, for a total of +11 before his Wisdom modifier. He would have a fair chance to resist the Wizard's spells.

He can't cast a bonus action spell twice in the same round to have 69 damage in both attacks. So, right in the first paragraph, your argument is dead.

But ok, let's go on. For him to surely bring someone down, he would need to win initiative. No matter your level, as a Paladin that's an upstream for you.

And then there's the Wizard's counterspell, which the Bard could have too. Suddenly those smite spells and etc are not so terrifying.

And then there's the Wizard locking you down with a wall. Are you going to waste your turn on Dispel Magic?

And then there's Cutting Words to wreck your attack roll of 7. That's half as much damage to you.

And then there are two guys on the frontline just waiting for you to try to move past them so they can AoO you silly (especially the Rogue).

And then there's the Rogue cutting one of your attacks in half.

I never mentioned any WIS spells in my analysis, and I,m not optimizing anybody with multiclass.

[dejarnjc]

I can't believe no one's mentioned Monk yet, the king of skirmishers. Also remember that ostensibly this conflict is taking place INSIDE a castle where the level 20 PC has time to prepare. I.E. they'll know the layout and be able to execute hit and run attacks. There is no better class for that then the Monk.




Obviously this analysis is waaaayy complicated but my gut tells me that a smartly played Monk could handle this easily enough, especially a Way of the Open Hand monk. Also maybe add in the mobility feat.

Assume maximum DEX and maximum WIS

Diamond soul gives you proficiency in all saves AND the chance to re-roll with a ki point. So you won't have to worry as much about those pesky Save or Suck spells.

Stunning Strike is an easy way to incapacitate up to four party members per round.

Quivering Palm... here is where it gets silly. Party is wandering down a hallway when suddenly the Monk drops down from the ceiling where he was concealed with his +11 stealth bonus.
Surprise round, depending on feats one or more of the five other PCs may get to go.

Regardless, monk drops down, attacks cleric, quivering palm, DC 19 constitution save. Monk attacks second target because why not and then Monk runs away with 70 feet of normal combat movement, use a ki point if you want to double that for a dash. Next turn Monk activates quivering palm and cleric saves and takes 10d10 necrotic or drops to 0 HP.

Rinse and repeat. Keep doing this until you're confident they've expended most of their resources. If need be take a short rest and get all your Ki back. Follow the adventurers and make sure they can't get a long rest and eventually you'll just wear them down.



*EDIT* I didn't even think about the fact that Tranquility (sanctuary) with a DC 19 wisdom save would prevent the party from even targeting the monk potentially for a round or two. More reason to take out any wisdom based spell casters first though.

[SharkForce]

if both sides are well-optimized for general play (and not this specific scenario) and played competently, and i had to place money on one side or the other... i'd put my money on the level 9 party, provided that the requirement for both sides is total defeat of the other.

on the other hand, if escape is an acceptable goal for the level 20 character (and i can't see any compelling reason why it wouldn't be... nothing has established that the level 20 character has a compelling reason to kill the party, after all), i think the level 20 character stands a pretty good chance of pulling that off. possibly an extremely good chance depending on class.

and even if the level 20 character does need to kill the party, well, apparently this level 20 martial is reasonably competent at ambushes (having just pulled one off), so i'd expect the level 20 to prefer to pull out and plan an ambush for the party, preferably at a time when the party is split up and can't bring all their resources to bear.

[LeonBH]

He can't cast a bonus action spell twice in the same round to have 69 damage in both attacks. So, right in the first paragraph, your argument is dead.

But ok, let's go on. For him to surely bring someone down, he would need to win initiative. No matter your level, as a Paladin that's an upstream for you.

And then there's the Wizard's counterspell, which the Bard could have too. Suddenly those smite spells and etc are not so terrifying.

And then there's the Wizard locking you down with a wall. Are you going to waste your turn on Dispel Magic?

And then there's Cutting Words to wreck your attack roll of 7. That's half as much damage to you.

And then there are two guys on the frontline just waiting for you to try to move past them so they can AoO you silly (especially the Rogue).

And then there's the Rogue cutting one of your attacks in half.

I never mentioned any WIS spells in my analysis, and I,m not optimizing anybody with multiclass.

Nah, I never said he dealt 69 damage with each hit. He just downs two characters with separate hits. Huh, right from there, your counterargument is dead.

Hmm. Are you arguing against me using a scenario you concocted? Strange, I can somehow feel like this is optimized for you to win.

But let's go on anyway. The party can lose initiative, it's a dice roll. This is not a solid argument, it's based on chance.

Then the Wizard locks him down with a wall. So he waits, perhaps readies an action to Dimension Door as soon as the wall is removed with his magic cloak. Or he applies Oil of Etherealness and escapes, then comes back and kites the party.

Then there's Bless to mitigate Cutting Words. Also, Cutting Words can roll to be a 1, so that didn't help.

And then there's the two frontliners, who can't drop the Paladin with one AoO each.

... Really, as long as we can whip out random builds, the point is meaningless.

[Armored Walrus]

... Really, as long as we can whip out random builds, the point is meaningless.

I agree. The discussion is about as meaningful as any of this type of thread ever are. "Can the party defeat the level 20?" Sure they can. We can think of all kinds of scenarios in which they can. "Will they?" Ah, now that's an interesting question, and one that can only be answered in play. The rest of this thread is just supposition and subjectivity. No one is going to be able to "prove" an answer here.

[Waar]

A rogue with a long range weapon might be able to wipe the party.

At level 20 a rogue (with expertise stealth and dex 20) will at lowest get a 27 (10+12+5) on its stealth roll. This means that the party needs expertise in perception, or a 16+ wis to be able to ever detect the rogue. And if the rogue could get into a position/distance so that the party has disadvantage on perception it gets even worse.

If the rogue is an assasin it will rutinely drop a party member on an initial hit (a sample level 9 party member might have 8+5*8+3*9=75 hp which is less than the expected damage of a crit from the assasin), and therefore instakill them if they fail the dc 19 con save from Death Strike.

If the 5 people party only has one member that can revive the dead, instakilling that character makes the party quite vulnarable to this kind of hit and run tactic.

[KorvinStarmast]

Monkification
Loved the post, and you saved me a lot of typing. Well played! :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

I can't believe no one's mentioned Monk yet, the king of skirmishers. Also remember that ostensibly this conflict is taking place INSIDE a castle where the level 20 PC has time to prepare. I.E. they'll know the layout and be able to execute hit and run attacks. There is no better class for that then the Monk.

This is rather entertaining. Excuse me while I go drop a level 20 Monk living in a castle on my PCs. :D

[Dr.Samurai]

If a Redeemer Paladin can take out the cleric, he can choose not to kill the cleric and have himself a healbot for 1 minute. He also auto-heals hp while he's bloodied, and has a resistance and thorns aura against everyone until he attacks them. Which he means he can just target one person and tank the damage from the rest while they take half the damage they deal him, softening them up for when it's their turn.

So yeah, the Usurper should be a redeemer.

[N810]

OP is vague on the 9th level party members, so we can't assume what spells they have access to. I mean really, there just isn't enough to go on. The answer to the OP is yes, a 20th level character could defeat a party of 9th level characters. But the answer is meaningless because it is only technical. We don't know the builds for *any* of the characters involved.

I suspect the half casters are at an advantage in this, but I like non-casters so:

Frenzied Berserker gets:

4 attacks (2 Extra Attack, 1 Bonus, 1 Reaction)
Half Damage from Weapons
Advantage on Initiative
Immunity to being Charmed/Frightened
Can't go below 1hp w/ Con Save
+4 Str/Con

also 3 extra die on a crit, 4 if it's a half ork.
also 3 attuned magic items, and other minor magic items.

[NNescio]

A Barbarian with the Alert feat may not lose initiative, though. Granted, even if he does, if they're trapped in a Wall of Force, he's not necessarily dead.

Trapped in Wall of Force followed by a spell lobbed inside from the top (or if height doesn't permit, the other spell goes first) that deal auto-damage to the Barbarian until he gets chipped to death.



The same goes with Banishment. He can kill the squishies with his 4 attacks per round (with Frenzy path), or else be very hard to kill with Bear Totem path.

He gets Banished, he's going to come back on top of a bear trap surrounded by caltrops and ball bearings, followed by multiple spells (readied or precasted) than a Wall of Force on top. Whoever cast the Banishment is also free to shift his concentration to another spell to end it early. And the Wizard can layer Mordenkainen's Hounds there as well even if he's concentrating on Banishment).
.




It's still based on a die roll. Any of them can hit or miss. The thing that was said to me was "but the Paladin can miss"; the proper reply is "so can the PCs, they miss, too". Because, if one side hits in a game of rocket tag, the side that hit first wins.

Wall of Force + Hunger of Hadar, no save no attack no nothing you just automatically take damage and can't see (no Misty Step).

Party plays rocket tag with homing autohit missiles instead of rockets, basically.


I'll also point out that the Paladin can cast Banishment using a 5th level slot to send 2 of the PC's to another plane for 1 minute. During this time the action economy won't hurt the Paladin as much. Bonus points if you banish the secondary healers, and drop the cleric with your first attack, kill him outright with the 2nd, and proceed to bonus action misty step away with the body of the dead cleric (to prevent any raise dead).

Counterspell.

And don't drop the Cleric (he might have Death Ward up too). Drop the friggin' Wizard with his no-save BFCs.


OP is vague on the 9th level party members, so we can't assume what spells they have access to. I mean really, there just isn't enough to go on. The answer to the OP is yes, a 20th level character could defeat a party of 9th level characters. But the answer is meaningless because it is only technical. We don't know the builds for *any* of the characters involved.

I suspect the half casters are at an advantage in this, but I like non-casters so:

Frenzied Berserker gets:

4 attacks (2 Extra Attack, 1 Bonus, 1 Reaction)
Half Damage from Weapons
Advantage on Initiative
Immunity to being Charmed/Frightened
Can't go below 1hp w/ Con Save
+4 Str/Con

Frenzied Zerk gets Wall of Force + whatever, dies, no save, no attack roll, no nothing.


I can't believe no one's mentioned Monk yet, the king of skirmishers. Also remember that ostensibly this conflict is taking place INSIDE a castle where the level 20 PC has time to prepare. I.E. they'll know the layout and be able to execute hit and run attacks. There is no better class for that then the Monk.




Obviously this analysis is waaaayy complicated but my gut tells me that a smartly played Monk could handle this easily enough, especially a Way of the Open Hand monk. Also maybe add in the mobility feat.

Assume maximum DEX and maximum WIS

Diamond soul gives you proficiency in all saves AND the chance to re-roll with a ki point. So you won't have to worry as much about those pesky Save or Suck spells.

Can't do jack against no-save-no-attack-just-suck spells though.



Stunning Strike is an easy way to incapacitate up to four party members per round.

Assuming you hit all of them. And they all fail their saves.



Quivering Palm... here is where it gets silly. Party is wandering down a hallway when suddenly the Monk drops down from the ceiling where he was concealed with his +11 stealth bonus.
Surprise round, depending on feats one or more of the five other PCs may get to go.

+11 stealth isn't really stellar, really (every member of the enemy party can do much better if there's someone with Pass Without Trace), it also has a high chance of being blown by the party scout (Wis guy + Observant).

Which is not to say stealth tactics aren't good (in fact they are one of the best tactics against this kind of party), but you need Rogue multiclass to it, to get expertise. Best done with a Shadow Monk + Assassin. Still need to be careful of Blindsight from the Wizard's bat familiar or from the Druid's Wildshape though.



Regardless, monk drops down, attacks cleric, quivering palm, DC 19 constitution save. Monk attacks second target because why not and then Monk runs away with 70 feet of normal combat movement, use a ki point if you want to double that for a dash. Next turn Monk activates quivering palm and cleric saves and takes 10d10 necrotic or drops to 0 HP.

Look, guys, what's the preoccupation with attacking the Medic first? Geek the Mage! He's the most dangerous guy with all the no-save-no-attack-just-suck-and-do-nothing spells. Kidnap or mutilate his body after that if you don't want the Cleric bringing him back.



Rinse and repeat. Keep doing this until you're confident they've expended most of their resources. If need be take a short rest and get all your Ki back. Follow the adventurers and make sure they can't get a long rest and eventually you'll just wear them down.

One LTH and they can laugh at you from the inside of their forcefield. Assuming they don't take potshots at you.

Which is why...

Geek the Mage first!




*EDIT* I didn't even think about the fact that Tranquility (sanctuary) with a DC 19 wisdom save would prevent the party from even targeting the monk potentially for a round or two. More reason to take out any wisdom based spell casters first though.

The moment you attack, you break the Sanctuary effect. Also it doesn't stop no-attack-no-target spells like Wall of Force from blocking you.

Which is why...

Kill the Friggin' Wizard first!

Look, this isn't exactly an impossible task for a Lvl 20 martial, but he's at an action disadvantage in particular if the Wizard is still up. The best choice is to have access to some sort of spellcasting for the martial (via Paladin, for example) for mobility (especially teleports to get around Walls) and stealth to let him defeat the party in detail. Also, kill the enemy Wizard first.

Or yannow, just go Longbow Rogue or some optimized Ranger/Rogue multiclass and kite the living hell out of them, beyond the range of most spells. At worse it's a stalemate.


Then the Wizard locks him down with a wall. So he waits, perhaps readies an action to Dimension Door as soon as the wall is removed with his magic cloak. Or he applies Oil of Etherealness and escapes, then comes back and kites the party.

The level of WBLmancy is starting to remind me of Giamonk and his partially charged wands.

In any case, no, you don't want full access to magic items, as the enemy party has far more actions to use them. All of them firing L7 Magic Missiles from wands alone can be a huge problem.



Then there's Bless to mitigate Cutting Words. Also, Cutting Words can roll to be a 1, so that didn't help.

You precast a short-term spell, they get to precast their short-term spells too. You don't want that.




... Really, as long as we can whip out random builds, the point is meaningless.

We use reasonable builds that don't require ad-hoc magic items, convenient arrangement of enemy positions (the standard arena setup is all one one side and the opposing team on the other), ridiculous stats, epic boons (which strictly speaking are post-level 20 advancements) and all that.

(Also no all-Wizard parties, for that matter.)

Like, yannow, optimized long ranged sneak builds, or just straight up nova skirmishers who target the Wizard first. Target the Wizard first. Because it bears mentioning twice I-don't-know-how-many-times.

If you have to resort to contrived builds like that, then you have already conceded to the other party (like 3.5e Giamonks with partially-charged wands vs Wizards.)

[Dr.Samurai]

also 3 extra die on a crit, 4 if it's a half ork.
also 3 attuned magic items, and other minor magic items.
True. The other features though help to mitigate the imbalance in action economy to some extent (however minor).

If the barbarian were to go with the Zealot path instead, we lose the two attacks, but we gain ~13 auto damage within 5ft, and the zealot doesn't get knocked out at 0hp and can't die even from failed saving throws until his Rage ends.

[Douche]

I find dubious the premise that a 20th level martial character will be alone.
If it's a male, he's likely to at least have groupies, likely a love interest (women are attracted to wealth and fame) and a few henchmen/hirelings around.

Then again, the 20th level might be very anti social, which is reason enough for 5 murder hoboes to go out and kill him. :smallbiggrin:

What are you, trying to roleplay your way out of this?

Fine then, the 20th level is actually a great adventurer who helped save the world with his friends 14 years ago. Since then, he has squandered his fortune & all his friends have abandoned him because he's a notorious drunk & generally unpleasant man. For a few months, he figured that with his superhuman power he could make a decent living working security... But after a few months of being treated like a common thug, he felt he wasn't getting the respect he deserved. He should be treated like a king! So he went & killed the king, deciding that'd be enough for him to take his place.


OP is vague on the 9th level party members, so we can't assume what spells they have access to. I mean really, there just isn't enough to go on. The answer to the OP is yes, a 20th level character could defeat a party of 9th level characters. But the answer is meaningless because it is only technical. We don't know the builds for *any* of the characters involved.

Because I didn't want to stifle creativity or bottleneck the conversation when I was looking for a general one.

But if it helps, it seems to me like the hypothetical party has naturally formed into a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, and Bard.

[Dr.Samurai]

Trapped in Wall of Force followed by a spell lobbed inside from the top (or if height doesn't permit, the other spell goes first) that deal auto-damage to the Barbarian until he gets chipped to death.
Assuming Wall of Force.

He gets Banished, he's going to come back on top of a bear trap surrounded by caltrops and ball bearings, followed by multiple spells (readied or precasted) than a Wall of Force on top. Whoever cast the Banishment is also free to shift his concentration to another spell to end it early. And the Wizard can layer Mordenkainen's Hounds there as well even if he's concentrating on Banishment).
Assuming Banishment. Assuming Bear Trap. Assuming Caltrops. Assuming Ball Bearings. Assuming Wall of Force. Assuming Mordenkainen's Hounds.

Wall of Force + Hunger of Hadar, no save no attack no nothing you just automatically take damage and can't see (no Misty Step).
Assuming Wall of Force. Assuming Hunger of Hadar.

Counterspell.
Assuming Counterspell.

And don't drop the Cleric. Drop the friggin' Wizard with his no-save BFCs.
Okay.

Frenzied Zerk gets Wall of Force + whatever, dies, no save, no attack roll, no nothing.
Zerk walks up to Wizard and attacks three times. Wizard dies. No save, no nothing. Done. I have "dropped the friggin' wizard". I have "geeked the mage".

Can't do jack against no-save-no-attack-just-suck spells though.
True. Not all spells are those kinds.

Look, guys, what's the preoccupation with attacking the Medic first?
Because the medic can heal the mage.

One LTH and they can laugh at you from the inside of their forcefield. Assuming they don't take potshots at you.
Assuming Leomund's Tiny Hut.

In any case, no, you don't want full access to magic items, as the enemy party has far more actions to use them.
Why are you assuming that they have full access to magic items as well? They are less than half the level of the bad guy.

You precast a short-term spell, they get to precast their short-term spells too. You don't want that.
You just mentioned precasting up above lol. But again, it doesn't matter. They don't know what the other is doing. I don't know why you're trying to equalize both sides of the equation. They cannot eavesdrop on each other.

[N810]

Just give the Barbarian a wand of counter spell,
a cloak of spell resistance,
and a ring of invisibility.

Also grapple the mage and then grab is focus/spellbook/component pouch. :P

[Malifice]

Without exact stats of the level 20 character, it's hard to say. But here is the XP budget of five level 9 characters:

Easy: 2750 XP
Medium: 5500 XP
Hard: 8000 XP
Deadly: 12000 XP

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK.

A level 20 character will have a lot of attack power. If they get even one turn, they can drop one or two of those players immediately. With Action Surge (if they were a fighter), they can drop three or four. A Ranger will similarly have four attacks with Swift Quiver. A Paladin has only two attacks, but has Divine Smite. Barbarians will have four attacks too with the Frenzy Path (including bonus action and reaction), while they will be incredibly tanky with the Bear Totem path and thus hard to kill.

If the party gets a drop on him, maybe they can take him out. But the more likely scenario, if metagaming within reason is allowed, is the party dies.

level is not = to CR

[LeonBH]

level is not = to CR

I never said it was. You have to average the offensive CR and the defensive CR to get its real CR, which is completely calculable for any given NPC.


Like, yannow, optimized long ranged sneak builds, or just straight up nova skirmishers who target the Wizard first. Target the Wizard first. Because it bears mentioning twice I-don't-know-how-many-times.

Cleric casts Divination. "Where is the level 20 character? Oh, there he is." Hold Person.

Bard casts Leomund's Tiny Hut. Ranger attacks from inside the hut. Wizard is also inside the hut.

Seems like your own defenses work against your own proposed optimized build.

[dejarnjc]

Bard casts Leomund's Tiny Hut. Ranger attacks from inside the hut. Wizard is also inside the hut.

Seems like your own defenses work against your own proposed optimized build.

Well aside from the 1 min casting time of LTH, Crawford has ruled that characters are not intended to be able to fire ranged weapons out of the hut from within.

[Phoenix042]

On the issue of "will they," obviously the actual result will come down to die rolls in some way, but the ODDS of 5 9th level characters defeating a 20th level one are something we maybe CAN meaningfully talk about, even if nothing is certain.

My intuition is that if you set up this scenario a thousand times with a thousand different build combos most of the community would agree are "typical" (which doesn't even brush the surface of all possible builds, even without varying up magic items too much), I think the party would defeat the 20th level guy most of the time, though it would be a challenge and one or more deaths should be expected.

If we assume non-full caster, single-classed character, that leaves us with:

Barbarian: I think a balanced party will do very well against a 20th level barbarian. He's got a ton of HP and resistance to physical attacks, but most of the best combat features come online at the low levels, and focus-firing is very effective. Lots of non-HP targeting magic attacks can be tried at once, greatly increasing the odds the the barbarian will fail a save at some point.

Fighter: I think this is a little harder, particularly against a fighter that didn't waste his path on "champion," which I would guess almost no one ever does. In this case, the fighter's ability to get off up to 9 attacks in a round, many of which can be modified by superiority dice, is going to be a problem for the party. I suspect they still win, but more than one of them will die.

Monk: This depends VERY heavily on terrain and what everyone's mobility resources look like. Because of a monk's high speed and power to zip around all the time, a party with variable mobility powers may get easily divided. My intuition is that the monk doesn't pose enough of a threat to the party at a distance for him to kill them all if they work together, but that the party can't kill him easily either. If they both commit to a slug-out, I think the party wins, but the monk can get away much to easily at low HP if the party can't chase him. And again, very terrain dependent.

Paladin: Paladin might win. Saving throws probably won't work on him, but still, the action economy is steeped against him SO much that it's just unlikely for him to get very far through the party before some effect takes hold or the focus-firing gets to be too much. This also depends on build though.

Ranger: In the PHB? Party wins this pretty easily, I'd guess. He has to few extra resources to make up for his lack of decent combat features.
Unearthed Arcana reworked version? I think it depends on the conclave choice and the terrain, but I suspect the party still wins most of the time.

Rogue: Someone already pointed out how effective an assassin rogue can be at 20th level in this type of scenario. If he can identify the magic-user most likely to cause him problems, he can likely take him out before combat really starts, and with cunning action and expertise in stealth, he's got a solid chance of disappearing to engage elsewhere if the terrain lets him. I think this may favor the assassin slightly. Against a rogue of any other archetype, I'd say the party wins usually.

[LeonBH]

Well aside from the 1 min casting time of LTH, Crawford has ruled that characters are not intended to be able to fire ranged weapons out of the hut from within.

I'm only citing it back, as the other guy cited it. Boiling in your own oil and all that, or is it drinking your own medicine? :)

[NNescio]

Cleric casts Divination. "Where is the level 20 character? Oh, there he is." Hold Person.

At sniping range you don't have range for Hold Person. Also Divination doesn't show you where the enemy is -- best situation is the deity tells you where he is, soon to be where he "was" once he moved.



Bard casts Leomund's Tiny Hut. Ranger attacks from inside the hut. Wizard is also inside the hut.

Seems like your own defenses work against your own proposed optimized build.

1-min casting time while you're getting peppered with arrows, not a combat spell unless paired with Banishment from an allied caster (to buy time for the cast). And Banishment doesn't have the range -- the point of using a sniper build is to neuter most spells since they usually have short ranges.

(Unless you run into a dedicated Eldritch Spear Spell Sniping Warlock, but those are less common then BFC Wizard, Banishment/Hold Person Cleric [because Clerics don't get much control beyond those spells), BFC/DPR Repelling Blast Warlocks, summoner Druids, etc.)


I'm only citing it back, as the other guy cited it. Boiling in your own oil and all that, or is it drinking your own medicine? :)

That was in response to dejarnjc, who advocated harassing the party (over a long period of time) to prevent them from taking a long rest. There's enough time to use LTH then, and this is the intended use of the spell.


Assuming Wall of Force.

Assuming Banishment. Assuming Bear Trap. Assuming Caltrops. Assuming Ball Bearings. Assuming Wall of Force. Assuming Mordenkainen's Hounds.

Assuming Wall of Force. Assuming Hunger of Hadar.

Assuming Counterspell.

You mean assuming spells that are part of a character build instead of you assuming the dice will all roll in your favor. Strong spells that are likely going to be part of any optimized Wizard's (and Cleric's and Warlock's and Bard's) repertoire regardless of school tradition, unless he's intentionally gimping himself (which is fine for roleplaying reasons, but this is an optimized team 'arena' fight.

And bear traps/caltrops/ball bearings are going to be in a party inventory if any one of them can cast Banishment.



Okay.

Zerk walks up to Wizard and attacks three times. Wizard dies. No save, no nothing. Done. I have "dropped the friggin' wizard". I have "geeked the mage".

Ah yes, assuming autohit again (again, not the same as assuming spell choices, which are part of a character's build, in the same sense then being a Zerk Lvl 20 is). And assuming you can deal enough damage to gib him, since you aren't a Paladin with smite or anything (or a Fighter with superiority dice and Action Surge). Also assuming you can reach the Wiz and his teammate aren't screening for him, since you aren't using ranged attacks.



Because the medic can heal the mage.

Not if you instagib him and carry-off his corpse. Or mutilate it enough such that Revivify no longer works.

Instagibbing the Wizard is possible, but you need something like a Paladin (using teleports or a mount for mobility) or ranged Assassin (or optimized Assassin/Battlemaster/Ranger) for it, not the Barb.


4]Assuming Leomund's Tiny Hut.

What optimized Wizard doesn't pick LTH? Also, again, this is for the purposes of securing a long rest, not in-combat use or anything.




Why are you assuming that they have full access to magic items as well? They are less than half the level of the bad guy.

Because there are a lot of powerful uncommons (WotC didn't balance rarity properly) that can be 'reasonably' accessed by the low level party, if you're going to give carte blanche access to magical items for the martial (beyond the usual magical weapons and armor).

Also, really, if you're going to play the "stack the magical items game", past a certain point, this is no longer a 20th level martial class vs a party of 5 9th level characters, but infinite magic items (*cough* Giamonk with partially-charged wands *cough*) vs. the party challenge instead.



You just mentioned precasting up above lol. But again, it doesn't matter. They don't know what the other is doing. I don't know why you're trying to equalize both sides of the equation. They cannot eavesdrop on each other.

If you meant the LTH, it was in another situation (guarding against long-rest harassment by dejarnjc's monk). Context, guys.

If you mean Death Ward, that's a long-term no-concentration buff similar to a Wizard''s Mage Armor, i.e. a spell that they are likely to have up. Not something like 1-minute concentration-required Bless. If the 'martial' gets to cast that, the Wizard gets to have his 1-minute buffs like Blink and Mirror Image up (and possibly Greater Invis), and the Cleric gets to throw Sanctuary on all the squishies (the Wizard can even cast most Walls without breaking Sanctuary, since most of them technically don't affect an enemy target0.

[LeonBH]

NNescio, so what are you saying? That a level 9 party of 5 can kill all the level 20 characters?

Edit: Or rather, all the level 20 characters that are not optimized ranged Rogue builds?

[NNescio]

NNescio, so what are you saying? That a level 9 party of 5 can kill all the level 20 characters?

No.

More like a party of 5 level 9 has a very strong advantage in action economy against a single level 20 non-spellcaster, so the level 20 has to separate them to defeat them in detail, or to play the spellcaster game as well to counteract some of the party's spells (or for stealth and mobility purpose, which itself also indirectly counteracts some spells). He also has to play the spellcaster game in such a way that his spells are not easily Counterspelled or Dispelled (usually by staying out of Counterspelling range, and not being too overt with his buffs to invite a Dispel).


Or rather, all the level 20 characters that are not optimized ranged Rogue builds?

Straight Paladin could work, 'though it's not without risk (blow your two attack rolls against a priority target and you leave yourself open). Optimized stealth sniper builds has far less risk (you're still safe and stealthed even if you miss), at the cost of letting the party escape more easily (you have a stalemate if they retreat to less open areas and set up barricades). That said, Paladin does have the significant advantages of having good saves, spells to bypass walls, and easy nova without specifically optimizing for it.

Straight Barbarians, no. Can't nova as good as the other martials, even if they don't die so easily, since they can be trivially shut down by no-save spells anyway. MC Barbarians could work though, perhaps optimized grappling builds with high mobility and stealth, or Barbarian MC builds (Battlemaster with SA, maybe) with strong nova potential.

Straight Monks are not that strong in direct combat, and long-term harassment (with constant withdrawing and reengaging combat) can be shut down by LTH or Rope Trick. They are also not that good at stealth, without multiclassing into Rogue for expertise.

Fighters (Battlemasters or EKs) with ranged attacks can also do it, depending on how their nova go, and how they optimize their damage (again well, this turns into an optimized ranged build, but not necessarily at sniping ranges -- it could be midrange instead).

Basically, the build should have the ability to nova, plus having the ability to play the caster game, or can engage from ranges where most spells are ineffective, or have stealth and mobility. Preferably more than one of the three (in addition to nova potential).

Most of them would benefit from two levels of Fighter for Action Surge for a stronger nova or the capability to Action Surge to cast a spell and GTFO (if things are about to go pear-shaped because the dice didn't roll in your favor), in the case of Vengeance Paladins and some ATs. Rogue is also good for expertise and Cunning Action, and possibly the Assassinate class feature if they dip Rogue 3.

[LeonBH]

No.

More like a party of 5 level 9 has a very strong advantage in action economy against a single level 20 non-spellcaster, so the level 20 has to separate them to defeat them in detail, or to play the spellcaster game as well to counteract some of the party's spells or for stealth and mobility purposes.

OK, so you are saying that the level 20 character can kill the party of five level 9 PCs then?

[Dr.Samurai]

You mean assuming spells that are part of a character build...
Yes, you are assuming which spells a person is choosing.

instead of you assuming the dice will all roll in your favor
I don't assume that. I did, to poke fun at your example, but I'm not saying definitively one way or the other that the level 20 will win. That's *impossible* to do without knowing anything about either group.

Strong spells that are likely...
Key word --> likely

Also, "strong spells" like Hunger of Hadar are assuming an entire class.

(which is fine for roleplaying reasons, but this is an optimized team 'arena' fight)
I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I get the impression from the OP that the group of level 9 characters already exist, but I could be wrong.

And bear traps/caltrops/ball bearings are going to be in a party inventory if any one of them can cast Banishment.
Right. An assumption on top of an assumption. I get it dude. I mentioned it earlier.

Ah yes, assuming autohit again (again, not the same as assuming spell choices, which are part of a character's build, in the same sense then being a Zerk Lvl 20 is).
No, not assuming auto-hit. I'm not fighting your guys. I'm saying that the berserker can kill the wizard if he hits him with all three attacks. He's not guaranteed to of course. Neither is the wizard guaranteed to have all of the right spells.

And assuming you can deal enough damage to gib him, since you aren't a Paladin with smite or anything (or a Fighter with superiority dice and Action Surge).
I don't need to be to kill the wizard (under certain... assumptions!).

Also assuming you can reach the Wiz and his teammate aren't screening for him, since you aren't using ranged attacks.
Yes, precisely. That's how melee attacks work.

Not if you instagib him and carry-off his corpse. Or mutilate it enough such that Revivify no longer works.
Please explain this. When you are already at a disadvantage in the action economy department, how exactly are you going to cart off a corpse and/or mutilate it with four other PCs chasing you and attacking you?

Instagibbing the Wizard is possible, but you need something like a Paladin (using teleports or a mount for mobility) or ranged Assassin (or optimized Assassin/Battlemaster/Ranger) for it, not the Barb.
Don't quite know, given we have no information on builds or throne room layout.

Because there are a lot of powerful uncommons that can be reasonably accessed by the low level party.
I'm operating under the assumption that this is a party that reached level 9 and builds are static, but maybe I'm totally missing the point of the OP.

If you meant the LTH, it was in another situation (guarding against long-rest harassment by dejarnjc's monk). Context, guys.
Context was the level 20 is banished and has to return to deal with spells (including precasted spells).

[JBPuffin]

5e's bounded accuracy helps the Level 9s a lot - it's not impossible for either side to win, but having five times as many actions as your opponent means you're incredibly likely to win through attrition. Level 20 half-casters have 5th levels, like any fullcaster 9th level opponents, and have better class features to work with, but the action count just makes it hard for the kingslayer to win this in most scenarios...

[Vogonjeltz]

A single non-caster class (therefore, Wizard, Warlock, Cleric, Sorcerer are banned. Half casters are okay) at level 20, versus your typical band of adventurers at 9th level. I'm being purposefully vague on the composition of party, but assume it's not totally stacked with Wizards or something who will just fly around & cast Hold Person until they succeed. It should be something you can conceivably imagine people forming (Warrior, Ranger, Spellcaster, Healer, Thief... Whatever) not a gimmick team.

The 20th level has just entered the castle of King Henry VIII and slain the king before the eyes of all. Everyone else either fled in terror or was cut down just the same. The castle is now empty & the 20th level sits upon the throne. The only force who can possibly stop him is the typical band of adventurers that just happened to stroll through town... But according to generic RPG conventions, no NPCs will help them aside from letting them buy generic adventuring goods at reduced cost.

Both teams are being controlled by human beings who will meta-game (within reason) and will take intelligent, strategic action. One party is incapable of hearing or eavesdropping on the other out-of-game though.

Can the party of 9th level adventurers bring justice to the town & stop the mad warrior?

Bonus: if 9th level is simply incapable of beating a 20th level, what's the lowest level that a party of 5 could be to succeed?

Only 9 HD means that the Wizard in a typical party would only have 38, 47, or 56 hp (if we very generously assume +2 con mod).

Is there any 20th level class that couldn't insta-gib the Wizard right off the bat with basically no chance of failure?

Sorry, but a group of Wizards is DOA. A 20th level Fighter almost certainly would kill 2+ Wizards on turn 1.

Also, per the DMG a Level 20 character would have 1 very rare, 2 rare, and 3 uncommon magic items (baseline).

If we simply get to pick this guy could take something absurd like the Horn of Valhalla, which evens the odds quite horrifically for the PCs. Do they have even a tiny chance against 8-20 Berserkers? What if he has an Ioun Stone of Absorption or Rod of Absorption? Or perhaps worse, a Robe of Scintillating Colors or Stars? Basically escape anytime he feels like it only to come back and murder any surviving Adventurers.


The bad guy hits the Cleric first, who has less than 69 HP, thus dropping him with 1 hit. Then he turns around and hits the Bard, knocking him out, too. Now nobody has healing spells for a bonus action.

I'd start on the Wizard, he drops easily (as noted, we're talking less than 56 hp!) and is instantly killed by the next attack (melee attacks on unconscious characters are automatic criticals and count for 2 failed death saving throws). That should only require about 3 of the first 4 attacks. Turn and use action surge to do the same thing same turn to the Bard and now you only have 3 enemies left, only one of whom presents a spell threat, a mediocre one at that thanks to Indomitable.


Yeah... if the party is dumb and has no tactics. You are using a great weapon user, and therefore a strength character. As such, the bard, rogue, and possibly wizard are likely to be going first, and the other two pretty much have an even shot at it too. Assuming one of the casters doesn't outright incapacitate the NPC in the first round, at the very least they can tactically place themselves to make your scenario impossible.

In what universe is a Wizard going to win initiative?


Maybe they hit, maybe they don't. Even with a magic weapon they're attacking at +14 tops, and with magic in effect the cleric could easily have an AC of 22 (+1 Full Plate, +1 Shield) without even getting into spell defenses. The bard meanwhile is likely to have AC 17 (Studded Armor +1, Dex 18), again before taking magic defenses into account. Then there's the assumption that the low level party is clumped together tightly enough to even reach them all in one round. This isn't 3.x, bounded accuracy makes guaranteed hits much harder.

9th level characters in a High Magic setting don't get any rare items.

That means no +1 anything for the Cleric or the Bard. Cleric's AC caps at 20 assuming they have heavy armor access AND plate mail and are using a shield. So before they cast any spells, they're looking at getting hit on a roll of 6+ (that's without advantage)

Bard's AC caps at a meagre 16, meaning they get hit on a roll of 2 or higher. They would be more likely to be critically hit, than to be missed if the Kingslayer is a Champion fighter.

No, these guys are dead on arrival. Only in the most unlikely of scenarios do they actually get turns, let alone have a chance of victory.


You need Paladin. Barbs can be taken out by Spiritual Weapon + Wall of Force if they lose initiative (or fail to down enough casters because they miss or don't deal enough damage). Also highly susceptible to Banishment.

Barbarians have advantage on Initiative. It's absurd to think that they would lose initiative to the Cleric.

[Dr.Samurai]

Also, per the DMG a Level 20 character would have 1 very rare, 2 rare, and 3 uncommon magic items (baseline).

If we simply get to pick this guy could take something absurd like the Horn of Valhalla, which evens the odds quite horrifically for the PCs. Do they have even a tiny chance against 8-20 Berserkers?
This would be hilarious and actually appropriate...

Adventurers: *kick in the doors to the throne room* Alright, we're here to take back--- *see fifteen berserkers lounging around the throne room*

Usurper: Meet my sycophants. *nods at the berserkers* Kill the intruders.

Adventurers: *die*

Re: Wizard HP
I was assuming a +2 con modifier when I said the Berserker could kill him.

Re: Attack Modifier
With a barbarian, we're looking at +13 before magic items, so it could go as high as +16 if he has a +3 weapon (don't know parameters obviously). And that's before Advantage.

[Unoriginal]

I'm pretty sure that if the lvl 20 got to attack, they can one-turn-kill at least one of the party members.

Turning this into a 4 vs 1 battle

[jas61292]

In what universe is a Wizard going to win initiative?

Well, that specific case I was talking about was against a Paladin build. Dex is a secondary stat for a Wizard. Its pretty much a dump stat for a Paladin. That's not to say the Wizard is going to have a massive advantage, but it would likely have a higher initiative bonus in that scenario.

[Specter]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has gotten out of hand way too fast.

Assuming magical items and setting and range is one thing, but assuming a Wizard doesn't have 14CON? Come on. Come on.

Any Wizard of any race can and should start with 14 CON, at the very least. That's what they call a secondary stat.

And the level 20 is not killing anyone in one turn. He will drop someone, sure, but any healing spell is throwing a wrench in your plan. Even if he did kill someone, you'd be looking at 5-4-3-2-1 in the number or turns, while he'd be taking 1-1-1-1-1. 15 against 5. There's really very little to talk about here.

[russdm]

A single non-caster class (therefore, Wizard, Warlock, Cleric, Sorcerer are banned. Half casters are okay) at level 20, versus your typical band of adventurers at 9th level. I'm being purposefully vague on the composition of party, but assume it's not totally stacked with Wizards or something who will just fly around & cast Hold Person until they succeed. It should be something you can conceivably imagine people forming (Warrior, Ranger, Spellcaster, Healer, Thief... Whatever) not a gimmick team.

The 20th level has just entered the castle of King Henry VIII and slain the king before the eyes of all. Everyone else either fled in terror or was cut down just the same. The castle is now empty & the 20th level sits upon the throne. The only force who can possibly stop him is the typical band of adventurers that just happened to stroll through town... But according to generic RPG conventions, no NPCs will help them aside from letting them buy generic adventuring goods at reduced cost.

Both teams are being controlled by human beings who will meta-game (within reason) and will take intelligent, strategic action. One party is incapable of hearing or eavesdropping on the other out-of-game though.

Can the party of 9th level adventurers bring justice to the town & stop the mad warrior?

Bonus: if 9th level is simply incapable of beating a 20th level, what's the lowest level that a party of 5 could be to succeed?

The King hires the adventurers to help secure his new realm of England, and offers to split any treasure the party uncovers in bringing the various nobles to kneel before him in some percentage. Basically offers them a job, and any land with titles that freed up, he might be willing to hand out.

What actual reason does the PCs have for opposing him? Beyond him being a designated evil? This is Medieval Land after all, if he killed Henry 8th and took the throne, then he is the king of England. Might makes Right after all, plus he has the entire kingdom treasury available. He just needs to convince the nobles to support him.

If the new King has special powers, then everyone will quickly submit to his rule. So he should just hire the PCs for something. Again, why exactly should the PCs be fighting him?

Update: You are making some errors here. A group of 9th level characters will not have access to much magic items, because unlike 3.5/3.p, the Magic Item Tree was kicked out of 5e, so whatever they do have will rare. If the DM still gives them choice items, that's great, but ANY marital character who doesn't have high Dex and Improved Initiative (or similar) never made to level 20. Not being hit counts far more than having high con or Str anyway.

It has already been stated that the party is not optimized or a gimmick team, so they are more likely to lose. For them to win, they need to be optimized, then this is a different struggle altogether. If you optimize the party for actions, then you have to optimize the opposition. It's only fair, otherwise why ask? It also negates nearly all of the argument, to basically, can you out-optimize someone on the board.

[djreynolds]

20th level martial is very vague.

The fact that at 9th level you have access to banishment is huge, most martials will not be able to make that save.

A spell DC for a 9th level wizard is probably 17, 4+5+8. And the same for maneuvers, save of 17

A wisdom save for a martial, who took resilient wisdom, +7 to +9. So now he/she only needs to roll a 10

The strength save is +11, so on a roll of 6 or higher most maneuvers will fail

Half-Orc Champion, longsword+3, plate+3, shield+3, AC27

20/8/18/10/16/8
Str +11/ Con +10/ Wis+9
Shield master, resilient wisdom, mage slayer, alert
max HP 280, 204 HP (average)
Athletics +11, acrobatics +5, perception +9
initiative +7
4 attacks, +14 to hit, 1d8 +10(+5+3+2) x 4=4.5+10=14.5x4=58 points a round not including crits
dueling and defensive style

This guy could clear out a wizard with 4 attacks and then action surge and maybe clean out the bard and with +14 to hit the shield spell maybe of little help, most maneuvers will fail, and most wisdom saves will be passed.

But like I said banishment is the big killer here

[Vorpalchicken]

This probably goes against the spirit of the OP's challenge, but a thief-Rogue would be able to use any magic item- including a staff of power and its Globe of Invulnerability. That and a couple feats could spell a devastating ambush. A nice concentration-free minor Illusion of solid bricks in front of an arrow slit could be handy.
Selecting other save- enhancing items could help the rogue weather the storm.

[Cespenar]

Why don't y'all just take this to the Play-by-Post section and try it out? Do some real science, people.

[Cybren]

I find dubious the premise that a 20th level martial character will be alone.
If it's a male, he's likely to at least have groupies, likely a love interest (women are attracted to wealth and fame) and a few henchmen/hirelings around.

Then again, the 20th level might be very anti social, which is reason enough for 5 murder hoboes to go out and kill him. :smallbiggrin:

Isn't this brazenly casual in its sexism

[Dr.Samurai]

Isn't this brazenly casual in its sexism
I don't find the assumption that some women and some men would be attracted to a powerful and wealthy usurper of the throne sexist, no.

[Cybren]

I don't find the assumption that some women and some men would be attracted to a powerful and wealthy usurper of the throne sexist, no.

The quoted text did not say "people are attracted to wealth and fame"

[Dr.Samurai]

Right but... I don't think it's untrue or unreasonable that the usurper would have women flocking to him and hireling and mercenaries (men, in this case) also flocking to him. Maybe hetero-normative I guess, and obviously women can be mercs as well.

[Cybren]

Right but... I don't think it's untrue or unreasonable that the usurper would have women flocking to him and hireling and mercenaries (men, in this case) also flocking to him. Maybe hetero-normative I guess, and obviously women can be mercs as well.

We're getting bogged down into this so I won't post anything else on the matter but the thing i was pointing out as sexist was the parenthetical aside that of course women are attracted to power and fame. It's sexist in generalizing an entire gender while perpetuating a common belief that women are shallow or vain in some way. Women in real life are attacked for being gold diggers or opportunists in this exact way.

[Dr.Samurai]

Fair enough. I certainly wouldn't argue that all women blah blah blah. I didn't take the post to mean that but I can see how it can be taken that way. Someone of that status will definitely he hanger-ons, whether men or women.

[Citan]

A single non-caster class (therefore, Wizard, Warlock, Cleric, Sorcerer are banned. Half casters are okay) at level 20, versus your typical band of adventurers at 9th level. I'm being purposefully vague on the composition of party, but assume it's not totally stacked with Wizards or something who will just fly around & cast Hold Person until they succeed. It should be something you can conceivably imagine people forming (Warrior, Ranger, Spellcaster, Healer, Thief... Whatever) not a gimmick team.

The 20th level has just entered the castle of King Henry VIII and slain the king before the eyes of all. Everyone else either fled in terror or was cut down just the same. The castle is now empty & the 20th level sits upon the throne. The only force who can possibly stop him is the typical band of adventurers that just happened to stroll through town... But according to generic RPG conventions, no NPCs will help them aside from letting them buy generic adventuring goods at reduced cost.

Both teams are being controlled by human beings who will meta-game (within reason) and will take intelligent, strategic action. One party is incapable of hearing or eavesdropping on the other out-of-game though.

Can the party of 9th level adventurers bring justice to the town & stop the mad warrior?

Bonus: if 9th level is simply incapable of beating a 20th level, what's the lowest level that a party of 5 could be to succeed?
I don't see how a non fullcaster, alone, even at lvl 20, could ever hope winning over a party of 5 people.

Action economy gives him no chance.
Only one I see having any chance to survive (unless real luck or strange enemy composition, I would not even expect to win but either be able to flee to safety or incite enemy party to break fight) would be a...

Vengeance Paladin (fly + fear), that would cast a buff on himself (Shield of Faith, Haste, Circle of Power) then hit & run while taking advantage of fear, targeting casters first, using Divine Smite as quickly as possible.

Ancients (HP regain, disadvantage against spells for enemies), using Circle of Power on himself then going for enemy break with Destructive Wave while mounted on his Find Steed.

Oathbreaker that had time to conjure some minions beforehand and fully uses his features, including his level 20 aura, along with some Bestow Curse or Confusion.

Hunter Ranger conjuring Woodland Beings or Animals to try and restore some balance in action economy then using them as decoy/shield/glass cannon while he drops Extra Attack+ bonus action or Volley on his enemies, or cast Pass Without Trace then hide away.

Arcane Trickster may have a chance provided he succeeds in staying hidden AND manages to drop a spell from far enough to be able to run away/hide again. Which is VERY situational.

Eldricht Knight with Resilient: Wisdom, GWM and Mobile feats, and Greater Invisibility may also put a serious dent into the party by using Shield/Absorb Elements for protection as needed, saving his ass with Indomitable.

4 Elements Monk with Alert and Mobile using Empty Body along with Fly to gain even greater speed or a Wall to try and divide the party while he uses Lucky feat to ensure his Stunning Strike hit to stun as many enemies as possible on first turn, then focus on the most powerful ones while using Ki on Dodge bonus action.

[B]Open Hand Monk with Alert (better chance to start) or Lucky (more various uses) that would start with Empty Body then try and alternative round 1. Quivering Palm application round 2. Quivering Palm triggering, using bonus action solely on Dash/Dodge to try and survive. Provided he survive long enough to drop them while surviving all the attacks, he is one with the most chances of actually winning the fight (10d10 on a failed save will put a hard dent on even a Barbarian and have a decent chance to instantly drop a d6 caster).

Honestly, all of these MAY have a chance at winning in some corner case situations (really "bad" party composition with very low spellcasting, AND much luck on the single warrior side either because of rolls or environment). Most of the time though?
Just a caster succeeding in a Blindness, Hold Person or the like will be enough to drop their chances to near 0...
In that regard, Paladin trumps everyone here thanks to Aura of Protection + Circle of Power, then Monk because of Empty Body + Diamond Soul, then Fighter thanks to Indomitable.

[Cybren]

I don't see how a non fullcaster, alone, even at lvl 20, could ever hope winning over a party of 5 people.

Action economy gives him no chance.
Only one I see having any chance to survive (unless real luck or strange enemy composition, I would not even expect to win but either be able to flee to safety or incite enemy party to break fight) would be a...
- Vengeance Paladin (fly + fear), that would cast a buff on himself (Shield of Faith, Haste, Circle of Power) then hit & run while taking advantage of fear, targeting casters first, using Divine Smite as quickly as possible.
- Ancients (HP regain, disadvantage against spells for enemies), using Circle of Power on himself then going for enemy break with Destructive Wave while mounted on his Find Steed.
- Hunter Ranger conjuring Woodland Beings or Animals to try and restore some balance in action economy then using them as decoy/shield/glass cannon while he drops Extra Attack+ bonus action or Volley on his enemies, or cast Pass Without Trace then hide away.
- Arcane Trickster may have a chance provided he succeeds in staying hidden AND manages to drop a spell from far enough to be able to run away/hide again. Which is VERY situational.
- Eldricht Knight with Resilient: Wisdom, GWM and Mobile feats, and Greater Invisibility may also put a serious dent into the party by using Shield/Absorb Elements for protection as needed, saving his ass with Indomitable.
- 4 Elements Monk while Alert and Mobile using Empty Body, Fly to gain even greater speed or a Wall to try and divide the party while he uses Lucky feat to ensure his Stunning Strike hit to stun as many enemies as possible on first turn, then focus on the most powerful ones while using Ki on Dodge bonus action.

Honestly, all of these MAY have a chance at winning in some corner case situations. Most of the time though?
Just a caster succeeding in a Blindness, Hold Person or the like will be enough to drop their chances to near 0 (Fighter is much better than others in that regard thanks to Indomitable, Monk coming closely behind thanks to Invisibility and proficiency in all saves).

An alert lucky sharpshooter battlemaster or champion fighter could probably drop one or two of them if they win initiative and even the odds in the first round. I think it would require a favorable terrain advantage for sharpshooter though.

[Specter]

Isn't it weird that almost nobody mentioned Ranger?

That's the only martial who could hit all the party members at once. 150 feet away.

[Cybren]

Does an action surging fighter not get 8 attacks at level 20?

[Specter]

Does an action surging fighter not get 8 attacks at level 20?

Oh yeah, there's that. But still it doesn't compare, it's a regular attack against 8d8 damage, saving for half. That's like Improved Fireball.

[dejarnjc]

An alert lucky sharpshooter battlemaster or champion fighter could probably drop one or two of them if they win initiative and even the odds in the first round. I think it would require a favorable terrain advantage for sharpshooter though.

We already know the terrain. It's King Henry the VIII's castle. So that probably means Hampton Court Palace, Windsor Castle, or Whitehall Palace. You can look up the layouts easily enough online but the essence is is that these are all big sprawling places. Lots of hallways and rooms and also plenty of wide open areas.


So basically, the terrain is whatever the level 20 wants it to be assuming he/she knows the party is coming after them.

[Douche]

The King hires the adventurers to help secure his new realm of England, and offers to split any treasure the party uncovers in bringing the various nobles to kneel before him in some percentage. Basically offers them a job, and any land with titles that freed up, he might be willing to hand out.

What actual reason does the PCs have for opposing him? Beyond him being a designated evil? This is Medieval Land after all, if he killed Henry 8th and took the throne, then he is the king of England. Might makes Right after all, plus he has the entire kingdom treasury available. He just needs to convince the nobles to support him.

If the new King has special powers, then everyone will quickly submit to his rule. So he should just hire the PCs for something. Again, why exactly should the PCs be fighting him?

Update: You are making some errors here. A group of 9th level characters will not have access to much magic items, because unlike 3.5/3.p, the Magic Item Tree was kicked out of 5e, so whatever they do have will rare. If the DM still gives them choice items, that's great, but ANY marital character who doesn't have high Dex and Improved Initiative (or similar) never made to level 20. Not being hit counts far more than having high con or Str anyway.

It has already been stated that the party is not optimized or a gimmick team, so they are more likely to lose. For them to win, they need to be optimized, then this is a different struggle altogether. If you optimize the party for actions, then you have to optimize the opposition. It's only fair, otherwise why ask? It also negates nearly all of the argument, to basically, can you out-optimize someone on the board.

Whoa, look at this guy! He wants to join forces with the Kingslayer! It's like he's got no sense of honor.

Little do you know that everyone in the realm loves Henry VIII so much that they will stop talking to you if you so much as utter his name in vain. If you side with his murderer, you will be universally hated & attacked on sight if people know you are working with the Kingslayer. Yep. That's it. Not because the hypothetical scenario is meant to find out how a 20th level would fare against an average 9th level party... It's because I wrote the small backstory for you to find a way to wiggle your way out of it!

Also, the Kingslayer, as I said, is MAD. Not multi-ability dependent. He's lost his marbles! He'll probably attack you on sight just because your presence is a perceived slight to him!!! He's craaAaAaAazyyyy!!!

(I'm jk... In all honesty, were I the DM, I would certainly allow the PCs to join forces with him if they wanted. I probably wouldn't make the Kingslayer an appealing character, but they could serve him if they desired. But again, that's not the topic of discussion. I just wanted a little backstory to make things more interesting & justify an empty castle as the battlefield)

Anyway, I didn't say they couldn't be optimized. I said they can't be designed specifically to kill one guy... Because these VS threads always gravitate from being general conversations to "Which ultra specific feats should I take specifically to counter my opponent" so it was just meant to be a little bit of a disclaimer.


We already know the terrain. It's King Henry the VIII's castle. So that probably means Hampton Court Palace, Windsor Castle, or Whitehall Palace. You can look up the layouts easily enough online but the essence is is that these are all big sprawling places. Lots of hallways and rooms and also plenty of wide open areas.


So basically, the terrain is whatever the level 20 wants it to be assuming he/she knows the party is coming after them.

Convenient timing on your comment, since I started explaining the battlefield.

Yes, I chose a real life character so that you could go look up Henry VIII's castle if you wanted a reference.

[Dr.Samurai]

Hey Douche, I didn't even realize that you had responded about the party composition. So just to be clear, because I think I was confused, this isn't an already existing party correct? I thought you had five players and were wondering if their current characters could take on a level 20.

[Citan]

Isn't it weird that almost nobody mentioned Ranger?

That's the only martial who could hit all the party members at once. 150 feet away.
Well, I did. ;) And I indeed spoke about Volley. With that said, there is little chance the Ranger could hit them more than once. After the party understands they are in danger by staying as a group, they will split.
Also, Volley does not that much damage unfortunately, even with Sharp. So it would be a good warning shot, but after that Ranger would probably better rely on Conjurations while spamming the same one.


Oh yeah, there's that. But still it doesn't compare, it's a regular attack against 8d8 damage, saving for half. That's like Improved Fireball.
Hence why I suggested the Arcane Trickster as one that could be able to also rebalance the odds in his favor... Provided he fulfills several hard requirements: being hidden from all party when they enter, while still being no further than around 100 feet away.
Magical Ambush paired with a Slow could be extremely good provided there is no apparent WIS-resistant character, or only one: you nullify Extra Attacks, bonus actions, halves movement and lessens AC. Along with delaying spells. The big drawback is that you didn't actually do anything to hurt them, so it's a gamble.

Same could be said for Stinking Cloud.

Magical Ambush with a Fireball or, depending composition, Ice Storm, could instantly cool down (if I may say so XD) any will to rush. And as long as Rogue manages to hide back on his turn, it would incite enemy party to split up and look for him, making it easier for him to stay at a safe range while picking them one at a time... ^^

Just made me think about something.
Let's say that, for any reason of luck, an Eldricht Knight or Arcane Trickster managed to drop an enemy dead AND had his turn come again before anyone could revive him.
If EK casts Animate Dead, then whatever happens next, the former PC cannot be revived anymore? Or could he still be revived later if you first "kill" the zombie?



Sorry, but a group of Wizards is DOA. A 20th level Fighter almost certainly would kill 2+ Wizards on turn 1.

In what universe is a Wizard going to win initiative?

Trying to catch up to the thread, read this part, made me laugh quite a bit.
1) You didn't take School into account: if the guy is an Abjurer he will certainly have his ward up, for an amount of "THP" comprised between 20 and 23 HP. If the guy is a Bladesinger, he may very well have had the chance to buff himself before the party entered the room, which means at least +3 to AC. If the guy is a Diviner, he will swap either his Initiative or yours to make you start dead last.

2) You didn't get spells into account. If the party had any chance to prepare or at least know *when/where* the encounter would begin, any Wizard will have taken precautions by casting a buff (Mirror Image / Blur / Haste / Greater Invisibility).
Even if they didn't have any time, Wizard still has Shield spell which add +5 AC until the start of his next turn. So as soon as you start hitting him, you will have to drop GWM/Sharpshooter to ensure a good chance to hit, and even so you may very well miss a few times. Considerably dropping the chance of putting him unconscious, lest killing him right off the bat. And if you didn't kill him right this turn, there is a fat chance one of his ally will put him back up.
So "killing 2+ Wizard on the first turn" is really, really a sad joke.

3) For Initiative, well, unless you are a Sharpshooter Fighter or a Fighter with Alert feat (which is not that common), a Wizard has a better modifier for Initiative, since he needs DEX for Armor and maybe weapon attacks in the first place. But honestly, the most important factor here is luck (or Lucky feat one side or the other, or Diviner Wizard / Bard on party side), since the modifier difference won't be more than 1-2 usually.

[Specter]

Well, I did. ;) And I indeed spoke about Volley. With that said, there is little chance the Ranger could hit them more than once. After the party understands they are in danger by staying as a group, they will split.
Also, Volley does not that much damage unfortunately, even with Sharp. So it would be a good warning shot, but after that Ranger would probably better rely on Conjurations while spamming the same one.


Hence why I suggested the Arcane Trickster as one that could be able to also rebalance the odds in his favor... Provided he fulfills several hard requirements: being hidden from all party when they enter, while still being no further than around 100 feet away.
Magical Ambush paired with a Slow could be extremely good provided there is no apparent WIS-resistant character, or only one: you nullify Extra Attacks, bonus actions, halves movement and lessens AC. Along with delaying spells. The big drawback is that you didn't actually do anything to hurt them, so it's a gamble.

Same could be said for Stinking Cloud.

Magical Ambush with a Fireball or, depending composition, Ice Storm, could instantly cool down (if I may say so XD) any will to rush. And as long as Rogue manages to hide back on his turn, it would incite enemy party to split up and look for him, making it easier for him to stay at a safe range while picking them one at a time... ^^

Just made me think about something.
Let's say that, for any reason of luck, an Eldricht Knight or Arcane Trickster managed to drop an enemy dead AND had his turn come again before anyone could revive him.
If EK casts Animate Dead, then whatever happens next, the former PC cannot be revived anymore? Or could he still be revived later if you first "kill" the zombie?

I meant Conjure Volley, not the regular. It can be used twice (average 72?).

I don't think undead can be revived. But even so, to raise a PC you would need him dead, not just unconscious. Therein lies the challenge.

[Citan]

I meant Conjure Volley, not the regular. It can be used twice (average 72?).

I don't think undead can be revived. But even so, to raise a PC you would need him dead, not just unconscious. Therein lies the challenge.
1. Oh. Well, it should have been obvious to me, how could I forget about that? Guess I was too focused on keeping concentration for conjuration spells. ;)

2. Yeah sure, I know that this was a very improbable situation. Was just wondering for the sake of undead/raise dead spell interactions. ;)
On one side, the Raide Dead says "you return a dead creature to life, provided that is has been dead for no longer than 10 days -and the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body-.
On the other side, the same says a bit further "the spell can't return an undead creature to life".

So, when I read Animate Dead: "This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes either a skeleton or a zombie, DM has the statistics."

Do I understand rightly when I consider that the body has been permanently altered by the Animate Dead spell and thus, even if his friends managed to put down the "foul soul" animating his corpse, he cannot be revived at all?
If I'm right, this means the only way of reviving the character would be to totally destroy the corpse of the zombie/ex-character then use True Resurrection.
Seems awfully hard, and the dickiest way to put a character aside... oO

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't this brazenly casual in its sexism I suggest you get out from behind the computer screen and experience the real world, where the real people are. I also suggest you read up on a history of rock 'n roll stars, NBA stars, NFL stars, and baseball stars. The 20th level martial goes somewhere beyond sports superstar.

So would a 20th level female bard, who'd make the people who swoon over Beyoncé, Angelina Jolie, and Jennifer Lawrence likely drop their fanatic devotion to those wildly popular ladies and come a drooling ... there would be henchmen a plenty.

[Ruslan]

Ok, if for no purpose as to stop the meaningless arguments, I will run the fight. I need one person to generate the Evil Overlord character, and one person to generate The Party. Here are the rules:

Evil Overlord:
- Level 20
- Allowed material is PHB + Villanous character options from DMG
- Feats and Multiclassing ok
- 15/14/13/12/10/8 array
- No Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
- One +1 weapon and one +1 armor
- No other magical items except those you can produce by your own power

Party:
- Five level 9 characters, of those classes exactly: Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Bard.
- Feats ok, but no multiclassing [to give the party an 'iconic' feel]
- PHB material only
- 15/14/13/12/10/8 array
- No magical items except those the party can produce by its own power (eg. by casting Magic Weapon)

The Fight:
- Will take place in the throne room. Area is mostly well-lit. There are some dimly-lit corners to hide, or some furniture to hide behind.
- Both sides start aware of each other. No surprise.
- Both sides start at full complement of spells and abilities
- Fight to be done three times, with pre-rolled group initiative:
1.Overlord rolls 13, party rolls 7.
2.Overlord rolls 7, party rolls 13.
3.Both sides roll 10.
- Combat placement is an abstraction. The party divide themselves into "front row" and "back row" as desired. The Evil Overlord can't engage the back row in melee until the front row is disabled (or take the OAs). Of course the back row also can't engage in melee without stepping to the front and becoming the front row. Some spells (eg. Burning Hands) can't conceivably be cast from the back row without affecting the frontliners. I will use best judgement.
- Pre-buffing: both sides can start with buffs that have duration measured in hours or more. Shorter-term buffs are not allowed pre-fight. Mage Armor - yes, Bless - no.
- Any additional creatures other than Familiars are explicitly disallowed at the start of a fight. Neither side gets to start with a summoned monster or an animated corpse (although you may summon monsters during the fight of course)

- I will start with a 4-vs-1 fight (no Bard), and if the Evil Overlord wins, will add the Bard character to see if it makes a difference.
- Of course, if the Evil Overlord loses a 4-vs-1, there's no point in doing a 5-vs-1

I will post a complete writeup in a day or two after I get the characters.

[Douche]

Hey Douche, I didn't even realize that you had responded about the party composition. So just to be clear, because I think I was confused, this isn't an already existing party correct? I thought you had five players and were wondering if their current characters could take on a level 20.

Yeah, I edited my comment after you had already posted.

No, I'm not DMing this combat scenario or anything like that. It's not an existing party. It's purely hypothetical. And in this hypothetical, both sides are controlled by players... The level 20 is not an NPC. Meaning, both sides want equally to win. The level 20 is not going to hold back or throw the fight because the narrative calls for it. He's in it to win it.

[dejarnjc]

snip


I applaud the effort but do keep in mind that this does limit the build of the martial character quite a bit and give a hefty advantage to the party of 5. This is due to the fact that classes such as the Assassin rogue and Way of the Open Hand monk (and possibly ranger / archer-Battle Master) which would rely heavily on multiple ambushes and terrain.


That being said, I think it's a great idea and I would be happy to participate but alas, my weekend is booked.

[Ruslan]

I applaud the effort but do keep in mind that this does limit the build of the martial character quite a bit and give a hefty advantage to the party of 5. This is due to the fact that classes such as the Assassin rogue and Way of the Open Hand monk (and possibly ranger / archer-Battle Master) which would rely heavily on multiple ambushes and terrain.Understood, and intentional. Dealing with terrain features and a prolonged hit-and-run fight is outside the scope of its exercise.

[dejarnjc]

Understood, and intentional. Dealing with terrain features and a prolonged hit-and-run fight is outside the scope of its exercise.

Yeah I imagine that would be incredibly tedious for all parties.

[Specter]

I'll make the evil guy. Will edit it into this post.

Variant Human Oathbreaker Paladin 20
ST16, DX8, CO14, IN10, WI12, CH16 (starting stats)
ST20, DX8, CO14, IN10, WI12, CH20 (final stats)
Starting feat: Great Weapon Master
Skills: Athletics, Insight, Perception, Religion, Deception
HP 164, 20AC
ASI's: +4STR, +4CHA, Polearm Master
+1 halberd, +1 full plate

Other features:
Lay on Hands (100)
Divine Sense
Spellcasting
Divine Smite
Fighting Style: Defense
Control Undead
Dreadful Aspect
Extra Attack
Aura of Protection
Aura of Hate
Aura of Courage
Improved Divine Smite
Cleansing Touch
Supernatural Resistance
Aura improvements
Dread Lord

Spells:
1 - hellish rebuke, inflict wounds, bless, shield of faith, command
2 - crown of madness, darkness, branding smite, aid, lesser restoration
3 - animate dead, bestow curse, elemental weapon, magic circle, dispel magic
4 - blight, confusion, banishment, death ward, locate creature
5 - contagion, dominate person, banishing smite, circle of power, destructive wave
__________________________________________________ ______

In case you're wondering, damage on the attack routine is as follows:

ATTACK ACTION
1d10+1+5+5+1d8 (avg 21)
1d10+1+5+5+1d8 (avg 21)

POLEARM MASTER BONUS
1d4+1+5+5+1d8 (avg 18)

[dejarnjc]

snip


I like the build.

FYI If no one else volunteers by tomorrow morning I'll go ahead and make a 9th level party.

*Edited because I can't read*

I'll start now because I have some time but may not finish...

Variant Human Fighter - Level 9
STR 15 (+1), DEX 12, CON 13(+1), INT10, WIS 14, CHA 8 (starting stats)
STR 20, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8 (ending stats)
Starting feat: Pole Arm Master
ASI's (three total): Two for +4 STR and one for Sentinel
Skills: Athletics, Perception, Insight, (extra 2 from whatever background)
Fighting Style: Defense
HP: 76, 19AC (18 from Full Plate, +1 from Defense fighting style)

Other Relevant Features:
Action Surge: 1 use per SR
Extra Attack
Indomitable: 1 use per LR
Five Superiority Die (d8's) for four Battle Master Maneuvers with a DC of 17 (Commander's Strike, Disarming Attack, Precision Attack, Pushing Attack)


Hill-Dwarf Life Cleric
STR 13, DEX 12, CON 14 (+2), INT8, WIS 15 (+1), CHA 10 (starting stats)
STR 13, DEX 12, CON 16, INT8, WIS 20, CHA 10 (ending stats)
ASI's: Two for +4 Wisdom
Skills: Insight, Religion (two more from Background)
HP: 84, AC 20 (Full Plate + Shield)

Other Relevant Features:
Disciple of Life
Channel Divinity: Preserve Life
Blessed Healer
Divine Strike

Spells (just going to do ones prepared for that day

Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame, Spare the Dying
1 - Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Command, Guiding Bolt, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
2 - Lessor Restoration, Spiritual Weapon, Aid, Blindness/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Hold Person
3 - Beacon of Hope, Revivify, Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic, Mass Healing Word
4 - Death Ward, Guardian of Faith, Banishment, Freedom of Movement
5 - Mass Cure Wounds, Raise Dead, Flame Strike, Greater Restoration



Lightfoot Halfling Rogue Arcane Trickster
STR 8, DEX 14 (+2), CON 15, INT12, WIS 10, CHA 13 (+1) (starting stats)
STR 8, DEX 20, CON 15, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 14 (ending stats)
ASI's: Two for +4 DEX
Skills: Acrobatics (Expertise), Stealth (Expertise), Perception (Expertise), Sleight of Hand (Expertise), Plus two skills from background
HP: 66, AC 17 (Studded Leather)


Other Relevant Features:
Sneak Attack (5d6)
Cunning Action
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Mage Hand Legerdemain
Magical Ambush

Spells
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Friends
1 - Shield, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Disguise Self, Silent Image
2 - Blur, Mirror Image

[Corran]

Ok, if for no purpose as to stop the meaningless arguments, I will run the fight. I need one person to generate the Evil Overlord character, and one person to generate The Party. Here are the rules:

Evil Overlord:
- Level 20
- Allowed material is PHB + Villanous character options from DMG
- Feats and Multiclassing ok
- 15/14/13/12/10/8 array
- No Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
- One +1 weapon and one +1 armor
- No other magical items except those you can produce by your own power

Class: Paladin (oathbreaker), Level 20
Race: Halfelf
Starting stats (using standard array): STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16
Final stats: STR 18, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 20
Feats: Alert (no surprise, acting faster), Lucky (closest thing to legendary resistance)
Skills: Athletics +10, Acrobatics +7, Perception +6, Stealth +7 (disadvantage), Investigation +5, Insight +6
Fighting style: Defense
Items: +1 greatsword, +1 fullplate
Initiative: +6
AC: 20 (10+8+1+1)
HP: 164 (1*10 + 19*6 + 20*2)
Saves: STR 9, DEX 6, CON 7, INT 4, WIS 11, CHA 16
Attack (greatsword): +11 (6+4+1), 2d6+d8+10 (4+1+5), 2 such attacks (extra attack)
Bonus action melee spell attack (from dread lord): +11, 3d10+5 (necrotic)
Spell Slots: 4 3 3 3 2


Round 1
Action: Activate dread lord (capstone)
Bonus action: Melee spell attack

Round 2
Action: Activate dreadful aspect (channel divinity)
Bonus action: Melee spell attack

After that, you have several choices.

1) You can just spam attacks adding smites on top of them.

2) If the bard has used his reaction, you can:

a) use those 5th levels slots with destructive wave (action), or with banishing smite (bonus action) that you will apply on your next attack during the same turn along with divine smite to banish an (unconscious most likely) PC so that the cleric or bard cannot bring them up. Careful of the bard though as his counterspelling can hurt with that.

b) use wrathful smite (bonus action) that you will apply on your next attack during the same turn on anyone who isn't already frightened by dreadful aspect, so they can start taking the area damage from the capstone (last priority target with wrathful smite is the wizard and after him the cleric, and first priority target is the fighter so that you can avoid him in melee completely).

Generall tips: Try to stay within 30 feet of everyone, and avoid the fighter completelly if he gets frightened by eitherr dreadful aspect or by wrathful smite, if the wizard countespells try to engage and attack him as he will not be able to use shield. If I think of any more I will come back to edit. Obviously, if a party of 4 (thus no bard), abide the first rule of combat: cleric dies first.


*** If the oathbreaker is allowed a few minions from either animate dead or control undead (even if it is a few zombies), then the above build would have to change significantly, but I took it that minions that would have taken downtime to be created is not the case.

Edit: Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! Specter, you damned ninja....!!!:smallsigh:



- Fight to be done three times, with pre-rolled group initiative:

Eeeh, group initiative would really hurt the evil overlord, I think...

[Citan]

Ok, if for no purpose as to stop the meaningless arguments, I will run the fight. I need one person to generate the Evil Overlord character, and one person to generate The Party. Here are the rules:

Evil Overlord:
- Level 20
- Allowed material is PHB + Villanous character options from DMG
- Feats and Multiclassing ok
- 15/14/13/12/10/8 array
- No Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
- One +1 weapon and one +1 armor
- No other magical items except those you can produce by your own power

Party:
- Five level 9 characters, of those classes exactly: Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Bard.
- Feats ok, but no multiclassing [to give the party an 'iconic' feel]
- PHB material only
- 15/14/13/12/10/8 array
- No magical items except those the party can produce by its own power (eg. by casting Magic Weapon)

The Fight:
- Will take place in the throne room. Area is mostly well-lit. There are some dimly-lit corners to hide, or some furniture to hide behind.
- Both sides start aware of each other. No surprise.
- Both sides start at full complement of spells and abilities
- Fight to be done three times, with pre-rolled group initiative:
1.Overlord rolls 13, party rolls 7.
2.Overlord rolls 7, party rolls 13.
3.Both sides roll 10.
- Combat placement is an abstraction. The party divide themselves into "front row" and "back row" as desired. The Evil Overlord can't engage the back row in melee until the front row is disabled (or take the OAs). Of course the back row also can't engage in melee without stepping to the front and becoming the front row. Some spells (eg. Burning Hands) can't conceivably be cast from the back row without affecting the frontliners. I will use best judgement.
- Pre-buffing: both sides can start with buffs that have duration measured in hours or more. Shorter-term buffs are not allowed pre-fight. Mage Armor - yes, Bless - no.
- Any additional creatures other than Familiars are explicitly disallowed at the start of a fight. Neither side gets to start with a summoned monster or an animated corpse (although you may summon monsters during the fight of course)

- I will start with a 4-vs-1 fight (no Bard), and if the Evil Overlord wins, will add the Bard character to see if it makes a difference.
- Of course, if the Evil Overlord loses a 4-vs-1, there's no point in doing a 5-vs-1

I will post a complete writeup in a day or two after I get the characters.
Hi!

I'll make a quick try, putting up a "generic" party (aka no optimized for this fight, but something I'd put up as a party that have to face many unknown dangers).

OVERLORDS
Overlord 1(why Evil? XD): Arcane Trickster lvl 19 / Fighter 1 (couldn't resist ^^)

High Elf: STR 8 / DEX 14 (+2) / CON 12 / INT 15(+1) / WIS 13 / CHA 10
ASI: +2 DEX (lvl4), Skulker (lvl8), +2 INT (lvl 10), Sharpshooter (lvl 12), Observant (lvl 16), Alert (lvl 19).
Final stats: STR 8 / DEX 18 / CON 12 / INT 18 / WIS 14 / CHA 10.
Archery Fighting Style.
Proficiencies: Strength, Constitution, Wisdom.
Cantrips known: Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth.
1st level: Shield, Silent Image, Charm Person.
2nd level: Mirror Image, Blur, Hold Person.
3rd level: Fear, Phantom Steed, Slow*, Fireball*
4th level: Greater Invisibility, Compulsion.
* denotes free school.

Usual tactics are, depending on the enemy (and how DM would rule Mirror Images interacting with Invisibility)
- casting Greater Invisibility and Attack, using bonus action to hide if you hit or move away faster if you missed (thanks to Skulker).
- or Hide and try to unleash a Magical Ambush Fear/Slow/Compulsion depending on enemy composition and use hit&run tactics, using Skulker benefit to try and hide more easily, mounted on a Phantom Steed depending on environment.
- on a 1 vs 1, casting either Mirror Image and Blur then using Booming Blade, or a Hold Person to finish it as quickly as possible.


Half-Elf Ancients Paladin.
Starting stats: STR 16 (15+1) / DEX 12 / CON 14(13+1) / INT 8 / WIS 10 / CHA 16(14+2)
15 / 13 / 10 /
ASI: STR +2, CHA +2, Spell Sniper (Warlock: Eldricht Blast), Alert, Sentinel.
Final stats: STR 18 / DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 10 / CHA 18
Defense Fighting style (AC +1), Aura of Protection (+4 to all saves), Aura of Warding (Magic Resistance), Undying Sentinel (drop to 1 instead of 0), Elder Champion.
Prepared spells: oath spells + Bless, Command, Compelled Duel, Shield of Faith, Aid, Find Steed, Branding Smite, Blinding Smite, Dispel Magic, Cure Wounds, Banishment, Circle of Power, Destructive Wave.

He wields heavy armor and shield for maximum defense (18+2+1), blasting Eldricht Blast and preparing a smite spell while he comes closer to his target then drawing his weapon to smite away. For tougher fights, he may cast either Bless or Shield of Faith depending on what seems the most likely target.
For the biggest fights, he will either cast Circle of Power or undergo his transformation, or both if he can, before wading into the fight, casting Plant Growth to slow down his enemies, or unleashing an Ice Storm or Destructive Wrath if still available, or just Commanding his enemies to drop prone or stop doing anything.

Note: I realize how Ancient's 20th level feature works against Circle of Power and Paladin in general: the fact you put enemies at disadvantage when close makes you willing to cast concentration spells. But most of them are smite spells which are already bonus action. And the few directly offensive spells are high-level. :/
So, Ancients Paladin may be one of the thoughest nuts to crack if he really goes turtle mode (Circle of Power + Elder Champion + max defense) but on the other hand, he has very little to actually threaten the party: not enough slots to use Ice Storm / Destructive Wrath repeatedly, no middle-cost AOE like Shatter, Moonbeam requires concentration...
On the bright side, he can either use Command as a bonus action to get advantage while still smiting (small cost), or Ice Storm as a bonus action while Dodging as an action.

Still, I see how he could put up a fair fight in 1 vs 2 max, but I don't see how he could win in the end in our particular context, unless he manages to... 1) Win Initiative 2) Manage to successfully activate Elder Champion, move close enough to the Wizard or Cleric and successfully bonus action Banish him away. 3) Survive until next round, in which he would kill the Bard or Wizard which a successful bonus action Command (drop) then Divine Smite Attack.
He would certainly manage to get away though. :)



Wood Elf.
Starting stats: STR 12 / DEX 16(14+2) / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 16(15+1) / CHA 10

Option 1: Hellish Stone Prison (pure Monk)
ASI: DEX, WIS, WIS, Mobile, Alert.
Final stats: STR 12 / DEX 18 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 20 / CHA 10.
Disciplines: Fireball, Wall of Stone.
Idea here is to win Initiative, use bonus action Dash (if needed) to reach as needed then cast Wall of Stone as 10-by-20 feet panels to encircle enemy party. On next turn, unleash upcast Fireball(s).
If the party cooperates, they will probably crush one panel in just one round, but then they have only one opening to go through so it will take time for them to spread away.
You could also instead wait a bit for party to split (melee people rushing towards you) then cast the Wall, to disrupt any ability from ranged people to hurt you while you take care of 1 or 2 guy with usual Stunning Strike.

Option 2: Devil's Circle (pure Monk)
Starting stats: STR 14 / DEX 16(14+2) / CON 12 / INT 8 / WIS 16(15+1) / CHA 10
ASI: WIS, WIS, Sentinel, Warcaster, Magic Initiate: Druid (Mold Earth, Thorn Whip, Jump/Absorb Elements).
Final stats: STR 14 / DEX 16 / CON 12 / INT 8 / WIS 20 / CHA 10
Disciplines: Burning Hands, Wall of Fire, Fist of Unbroken Air (push), Cone of Cold optionally or Water Whip (would have been golden in original, "bonus action" version).
Idea here is simply to enclose the party in a small, upcast Wall of Fire. Then...
- Either you could put it close enough to trap all the party, and you know 10 feet range is enough: just either pick anyone coming out, or throw a Fireball or Burning Hands "against" the wall (Cone of Cold is too costly unless you are sure to bring at least 2 people down).
- Or you suspect you will need a clear view, then you will have cast Jump beforehand and put the Wall just high enough to jump 1-2 feet beyond its maximum height (it's "up to 20" feet so, with a running and triple distance, you -and you only- can jump (3+2)*3= 15 feet.
- Or you take advantage of being immune to all damage by activating Empty Body then you bravely go through the flames, maybe using an Absorb Elements on the first time.
- If the DM allows it (not sure really, I'm always puzzled with attacking creatures you can't see) you can also use Fangs of the Fire Snake to try and hit people without actually crossing the wall.

Wall is opaque, so unless they can either Counterspell you (if you didn't activate Empty Body beforehand) or Dispel the Wall, they WILL have to cross it to do anything to you (well, they could always try to shoot things randomly).
If they cross it, they will suffer a good deal of damage. If they stay into it, they WILL suffer a good deal of damage. If everyone crosses it, then you can easily attack one of them then cross it the other way, sustaining a bit of damage in case you didn't take the "Jump" option.
Thanks to Fist of Unbroken Air and Thorn Whips, you get to pull or push people as needed to make them cross the wall again.
Even as they try to flee, the combination of Sentinel + Warcaster means you can keep people near you (preferably *inside* the part that damages automatically XD) with Thorn Whips.

If for some reason the Sentinel+Warcaster wasn't allowed, then dropping Monk 20 to get Fighter 2 would be a good choice: you still keep Empty Body, and although you lose one ASI you can replace Sentinel by Mobile or Spell Sniper or Tough or Alert for example, and you get Mariner Fighting Style (if allowed) along with Action Surge, which ensures you can get Empty Body and Wall of Fire running in the same round, or trying an alpha strike against 1/2 enemy members instead.



PARTY
Eldricht Knight Variant Human Fighter, with STR and CON as main stat, ASI: GWM (1), STR (4), STR (8).
Final stats: STR 20, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 8.
Spells: GreenFlame Blade, Ray of Frost, Shield, Magic Missile, Absorb Elements, Burning Hands, Shatter, Dust Devil*.
Usual tactic for biggest fight: casting Dust Devil so he has something good to do with his bonus action when GWM ability doesn't trigger, then rushing to smack away, keeping slots for Shield / Absorb Elements.


Wood Elf Nature Cleric, using his longbow or Sacred Flame to hit when at range while keeping Bless active, or a control spell such as Spike Growth. If tanking is needed, he draws his shortsword and wades into melee with Spirit Guardians active, using Healing Words and Dampen Elements to protect allies or pulling enemies inside with Thorns Whip or Command.
ASI: +DEX, +WIS.
Final stats: STR 10 / DEX 18 / CON 12 / INT 8 / WIS 18 /
Cantrips: Guidance, Sacred Flame, Thorns Whip
Spells prepared: Bless, Command, Healing Words, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Warding Bond, Blindness, Hold Person, Spiritual Weapon, Silence, Spirit Guardians, Death Ward, Flame Strike.
In addition to Nature Domain spells.



Bladesinger Forest Gnome Wizard
ASI: INT, INT
Final stats: STR 8 / DEX 16 / CON 12 / INT 20 / WIS 13 / CHA 10
Spells prepared
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, GreenFlame Blade, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Mold Earth.
1st level: Shield, Chromatic Orb, Mage Armor, Earth Tremor.
2nd level: Blindness, Darkness, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image.
3rd level: Slow, Haste, Fireball.
4th level: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph.
5th level: Animate Objects
First thing is the day is putting up Mage Armor.
Then, depending on the fight, he will...
- Either go into the fray with Mirror Image active, unleashing occasional Blindness, Chromatic Orb or Fireball.
- Or try and concentrate on a powerful spell such as Slow, Polymorph or Greater Invisibility.
Depending on what he plan for the day, he can swap any of those with the other he learned when leveling: Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Rope Trick, Web, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Glyph of Warding, Cone of Cold, Conjure Elementals.
He also has the following spells as rituals: Alarm, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Tenser Disk, Unseen Servant, Silence, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Water Breathing.




Arcane Trickster Variant Human Rogue
ASI: Sharpshooter (1), DEX (4), Crossbow Expert (8).
Final stats : STR 8 / DEX 18 / CON 14 / INT 14 / WIS 12 / CHA 10
Spell known: Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Booming Blade, Shield, Burning Hands*, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Hold Person.
Usual tactics is just to either hide and shoot, or run and shoot, casting Mirror Image / Shield if need be. Other spells are here mainly to set up a Magical Ambush.




Half-Elf Lore Bard
ASI: +CHA, Spell Sniper (Warlock: Eldricht Blast)
Final stats: STR 10 / DEX 16 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 12 / CHA 18
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery, Message.
Spells known: Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers, Bane, Faerie Fire, Blindness, Enhance Ability, Heat Metal, Shatter, Bestow Curse, Plant Growth, Greater Invisibility, Animate Objects, Counterspell*, Haste* (Magic Secrets)
Expertise: Persuasion, Stealth.
His usual tactics is to blast Eldricht Blast while keeping concentration on Faerie Fire, Bane, Heat Metal, Haste or Bestow Curse depending on the situation.
He can occasionally throw a Dissonant Whispers if it can throw opportunity attacks, or a Plant Growth to put some control.
Outside combat, he takes care of all CHA related skills.



Obviously others will have comments/critics to make about my suggestion of party. ;) I tried to make a group as versatile as possible but it obviously reflects my taste. ^^
I wanted to put up another big boss based on pure Ancients Paladin, and a third based on a multiclass, so you could have a choice depending on your own taste, but no time now.

[dejarnjc]

Obviously others will have comments/critics to make about my suggestion of party. ;) I tried to make a group as versatile as possible but it obviously reflects my taste. ^^
I wanted to put up another big boss based on pure Ancients Paladin, and a third based on a multiclass, so you could have a choice depending on your own taste, but no time now.

Hah, I got 3/5th of the way through mine when I saw yours.

One minor comments:
BladeSinger isn't PHB so I'd recommend changing that to a divination or illusionist wizard both of which I find to be incredibly popular.

[Corran]

[SPOILER=Rogue]
Arcane Trickster Variant Human Rogue
ASI: Sharpshooter (1), DEX (4), Crossbow Expert (8).
Final stats : STR 8 / DEX 18 / CON 16 / INT 14 / WIS 12 / CHA 10
Spell known: Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Booming Blade, Shield, Burning Hands*, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Hold Person.
Usual tactics is just to either hide and shoot, or run and shoot, casting Mirror Image / Shield if need be. Other spells are here mainly to set up a Magical Ambush.

Shouldn't you have a 14 in CON, rather than a 16?

[Citan]

Shouldn't you have a 14 in CON, rather than a 16?
Eeerrr, maybe?
I did it on the fly instead of making it step per step so I may have made a mistake.
So...
Starting array 15/14/13/12/10/8, with one ASi on DEX.
My idea was to put +1 from Variant Human on DEX and CON...
So, yeah, you are right, probably mixed up Variant Human bonus with ones from another character. You obviously can't have starting 16 both in DEX and CON with a fixed array and max +1 in any stat... :=)

So the stats should have been...
STR 8 / DEX 18(15+1+2) / CON 14 / INT 14(13+1) / WIS 12 / CHA 10

Thanks for the correction, I'll also edit the post above.

Hah, I got 3/5th of the way through mine when I saw yours.

One minor comments:
BladeSinger isn't PHB so I'd recommend changing that to a divination or illusionist wizard both of which I find to be incredibly popular.
Arf, the thing is, I totally forgot about this requirement in OP. And I did take weapon cantrips from SCAG into account also... :/
Well then, I'll let OP decide if he can bend his initial rules to accept SCAG. Otherwise, I'll have to revise a few things. ^^

[Noodz]

This post came a little late, but it is important that it be said regardless:

Regardless of build, the 20th level martial cannot pull a Death Adder (from Golden Axe) and just sit on his throne enjoying the scenery. From the general description, he has terrain advantage, so it's reasonable to assume he had the time to know the terrain, to set simple alarms and traps, and to utilize the environment to the best of his ability. Just sitting in a throne waiting for a well balanced group to arrive is basically suicide.

I think its reasonable to assume the martial had the common sense to stock up on supplies, lock and barricade all doors and windows, map as much of the terrain as possible and prepare for a long siege. Castles are naturally built to favor the defender, thus a smart level 20 character can obtain a possibly insurmountable advantage.

Of course this runs the risk of turning what was supposed to be a pitched battle into a slow cat-and-mouse game, not necessarily something pleasant to DM over.

[Cybren]

I suggest you get out from behind the computer screen and experience the real world, where the real people are. I also suggest you read up on a history of rock 'n roll stars, NBA stars, NFL stars, and baseball stars. The 20th level martial goes somewhere beyond sports superstar.

So would a 20th level female bard, who'd make the people who swoon over Beyoncé, Angelina Jolie, and Jennifer Lawrence likely drop their fanatic devotion to those wildly popular ladies and come a drooling ... there would be henchmen a plenty.

Doubling down on your sexism is a bad look dude

[Vogonjeltz]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has gotten out of hand way too fast.

Assuming magical items and setting and range is one thing, but assuming a Wizard doesn't have 14CON? Come on. Come on.

Any Wizard of any race can and should start with 14 CON, at the very least. That's what they call a secondary stat.

And the level 20 is not killing anyone in one turn. He will drop someone, sure, but any healing spell is throwing a wrench in your plan. Even if he did kill someone, you'd be looking at 5-4-3-2-1 in the number or turns, while he'd be taking 1-1-1-1-1. 15 against 5. There's really very little to talk about here.

It depends on prioritization, some Wizards might value Dex over Con, and if you want to get your primary stat to 20 you pretty much have to put both ASI into that stat, making for very little wiggle room on the others.

8 attacks from Action surge is well more than enough to drop the Wizard unconscious in one round and then kill them just from automatic failures on death saving throws. There's no chance at all to save a character in that situation.


I don't see how a non fullcaster, alone, even at lvl 20, could ever hope winning over a party of 5 people.

Action economy gives him no chance.
Only one I see having any chance to survive (unless real luck or strange enemy composition, I would not even expect to win but either be able to flee to safety or incite enemy party to break fight) would be a...

The actions of a level 20 character are substantially more valuable than those of level 9 characters.

A level 20 Fighter can do 8 attacks in the first two rounds, that's going to be basically double what the party can do. And it's enough in any one round to outright kill at least one party member each round.

What's your take in a 3 on 1 fight? Odds don't look good, at all, for the naive adventurers who tried to take on a legendarily powerful persona.


1) You didn't take School into account: if the guy is an Abjurer he will certainly have his ward up, for an amount of "THP" comprised between 20 and 23 HP. If the guy is a Bladesinger, he may very well have had the chance to buff himself before the party entered the room, which means at least +3 to AC. If the guy is a Diviner, he will swap either his Initiative or yours to make you start dead last.

20-23 Hit points is basically one attack, non-crit. So if that Wizard is an abjurer, congrats they've deflected one hit.

Hiring a Diviner specifically for portent in this scenario is clever, but relies entirely upon getting a very bad roll or a very good roll that specific morning, neither of which is very likely.


2) You didn't get spells into account. If the party had any chance to prepare or at least know *when/where* the encounter would begin, any Wizard will have taken precautions by casting a buff (Mirror Image / Blur / Haste / Greater Invisibility).
Even if they didn't have any time, Wizard still has Shield spell which add +5 AC until the start of his next turn. So as soon as you start hitting him, you will have to drop GWM/Sharpshooter to ensure a good chance to hit, and even so you may very well miss a few times. Considerably dropping the chance of putting him unconscious, lest killing him right off the bat. And if you didn't kill him right this turn, there is a fat chance one of his ally will put him back up.
So "killing 2+ Wizard on the first turn" is really, really a sad joke.

None of those spells present even a speed bump on the road to death, and this was in response to a party of Wizards so there's zero chance of someone putting them back on their feet at all...unless one of the Wizards is a Necromancer, but I don't think the subject would appreciate that effort.


3) For Initiative, well, unless you are a Sharpshooter Fighter or a Fighter with Alert feat (which is not that common), a Wizard has a better modifier for Initiative, since he needs DEX for Armor and maybe weapon attacks in the first place. But honestly, the most important factor here is luck (or Lucky feat one side or the other, or Diviner Wizard / Bard on party side), since the modifier difference won't be more than 1-2 usually.

Champions add proficiency to Initiative rolls, Fighters in general have more ASI and in this particular instance this fighter has 5 ASI more than any of our hapless adventurers, so there's more then enough room to have picked up feats/added on to various scores.

Net effect, there's little to no chance a Fighter has anything but a superior intiative roll, even if they aren't primarily a ranged combatant (which they have more than enough flexibility to do).


- One +1 weapon and one +1 armor
- No other magical items except those you can produce by your own power

This is vastly below what a PC starting at level 20 would have, let alone one who managed to kill the king singlehandedly. Way to Rig the Match in the party's favor!


- Fight to be done three times, with pre-rolled group initiative:

Again, tilting to the party.


- Combat placement is an abstraction. The party divide themselves into "front row" and "back row" as desired. The Evil Overlord can't engage the back row in melee until the front row is disabled (or take the OAs). Of course the back row also can't engage in melee without stepping to the front and becoming the front row. Some spells (eg. Burning Hands) can't conceivably be cast from the back row without affecting the frontliners. I will use best judgement.

It's totally inexplicable that a creature wouldn't be able to maneuver past a front line of 2-3 enemies in a throne room. Not only do they have the movement, but there are specific combat maneuvers (Tumble and OVerrun) that allow for exactly this.

Again, tilting the match in favor of the party.


ST16, DX8, CO14, IN10, WI12, CH16 (starting stats)

Starting stats should include a 13 and 15...how'd you get to two 16s? on a VHuman who only gets +1 to two different stats?


- Either go into the fray with Mirror Image active, unleashing occasional Blindness, Chromatic Orb or Fireball.

Mirror Image's duration is too short, he can't enter the room with it already on.

[Ruslan]

Thanks for posting the characters, guys!

I'll take the BBEG from Specter, the Fighter/Cleric/Rogue from dejarnc, and and Bard and Wizard from Citan [wizard changed into Diviner, as only PHB is allowed].

I'll let you know how that works out. Hopefully I can get at least one fight done tonight.

[Corran]

I'll let you know how that works out. Hopefully I can get at least one fight done tonight.
Can we please have the outcome described in a play-by-post sort of way?
Pleaseeeeeeeee???????????:smallfrown:

[Citan]

It depends on prioritization, some Wizards might value Dex over Con, and if you want to get your primary stat to 20 you pretty much have to put both ASI into that stat, making for very little wiggle room on the others.

8 attacks from Action surge is well more than enough to drop the Wizard unconscious in one round and then kill them just from automatic failures on death saving throws. There's no chance at all to save a character in that situation.

The actions of a level 20 character are substantially more valuable than those of level 9 characters.

A level 20 Fighter can do 8 attacks in the first two rounds, that's going to be basically double what the party can do. And it's enough in any one round to outright kill at least one party member each round.

What's your take in a 3 on 1 fight? Odds don't look good, at all, for the naive adventurers who tried to take on a legendarily powerful persona.



1. 20-23 Hit points is basically one attack, non-crit. So if that Wizard is an abjurer, congrats they've deflected one hit.

2. None of those spells present even a speed bump on the road to death, and this was in response to a party of Wizards so there's zero chance of someone putting them back on their feet at all...unless one of the Wizards is a Necromancer, but I don't think the subject would appreciate that effort.

3. Champions add proficiency to Initiative rolls, Fighters in general have more ASI and in this particular instance this fighter has 5 ASI more than any of our hapless adventurers, so there's more then enough room to have picked up feats/added on to various scores.


1. Please explain how a single attack from a Fighter, WITHOUT GWM/Sharpshooter, could reach that level of damage.

2. Really? Ok. Fighter, lvl 20, max attack stat: to-hit is 6+5=11. Right?
Wizard: let's put aside Bladesinger then and take "plain" Wizard (non Abjurer).
Let's say he went on the safe side and maxed both DEX and INT with his stats (considering how a Wizard can change the tide of battles, willing to be as Dextrous as possible for both AC and Initiative seems not far-stretched to me).

AC = 13+5 = 18 (Mage Armor), + Shield = 23, putting Blur/Mirror Image aside (IF Fighter won Initiative, which is not at all probable contrarily to what you pretend).
With normal attacks, Fighter has to reach at least 23-11=12 on the roll.
With GWM, Fighter would need to reach at least 23-11+5=17 on the roll (15 if Sharpshooter + Archery).
Probability of that happening on all 8 attacks? Very, very low.
And the Wizard will activate Shield on the first attack.
So Fighter will probably have to go on the safe side and use normal attacks.
Damage of normal attacks, let's be nice and take 1d10+5 (STR), and let's be extra nice and consider that all attacks hit.
Average damage: 10,5*8=84. Congrats. You very probably put down the Wizard. But you spent most of your turn, including Action Surge, in doing so, while just slightly harming another one best case. Either the Cleric Revivify him Wizard back up on the next turn if need be. Back to square one, with one Action Surge less. Or he doesn't have Revivify/he thinks his ally can wait and he opens the ballet of save-or-suck spells to drain your Indomitable rolls (you get 3, there are between 2 and 4 casters left). Sure, you may not need them immediately, and you can use again Action Surge to drop another caster, by far the most dangerous to you. But you will need luck on both accounts.
Or he prefers buffing one ally with Warding Bond to prevent his death. Or he casts Spirit Guardians to try and reduce your movement. Etc etc...

And you killing the Wizard outright was by far the best scenario (no premptive extra defense from Wizard or Cleric, no Cutting Words -or worse, Heat Metal cast in a previous turn- from Bard, no Domain defense feature from Cleric, no Protection from a Fighter, no School feature from the Wizard, etc).

So, no, sorry, only in the bestest of cases are you sure to kill ONE low hit-die character by wasting a good crunch of your resources, provided you won the initiative, and keeping you in the middle of a party that can and will crush you in the end in many situations, considering how many things can overrun you, even including the fact you have Indomitable.

You really want a viable build of Fighter to achieve what you boast?
a) Battlemaster Sharpshooter Fighter (with Alert and Martial Adept feat, Archery Style, maxed DEX, possibly Magic Initiate: Cleric for Bless): with 7d12 appliable on Precision Manoeuver, you can easily apply the bonus damage reliably. Bonus point, you can stay away from danger while you drop him. So you have a very very good chance to kill 1 character and, with a bit of luck, severely threatening the like of another. Party will probably launch spells at you, maybe blowing all your Indomitable at the same time. You will still be able to drop another one with the remaining Action Surge, even if you don't have Precision anymore. You are now 3 on 1. Or maybe you used Action Surge to cast Bless to help avoiding the next array of spells. As long as luck is with you for two more rounds against save or suck spells, you have a good chance to win.

b) Eldricht Knight with either (Archery FS + Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert+DEX bumps) OR (Alert+Mobile+GWM+Mage Slayer+(Warcaster)+Longstrider buff+STR bump) & INT bumps & Slow: Action Surge attack (without Sharpshooter/GWM, dealing damage is not the point) then cast Slow: with at least a 16 in INT and disadvantage because you hit your enemies before with a weapon attack, 4-5 of your six enemies will have a great chance of failing their saves. Worse case? They all break of it within one round. Tough luck, that's still one round when you could use your other Action Surge to finish one, maybe too, even easier (-2 AC). Best case? The effect lasts at least one more round, which means you can easily dispatch at least one other member while not having to worry as much about save or suck spells or opportunity attacks.

c) Eldricht Knight with Archery FS + Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert + Warcaster + DEX bumps + Resilient: Wisdom+ Lucky: cast Haste, blow 10 attacks on the same poor guy before backing to safety. Rinse and repeat hit&run tactics by staying too far away for most spells to be castable. Use Mirror Image if needed, otherwise Shield. When you have dropped 2 people, use Improved War Magic combined with Eldricht Strike to Hold Person a third (first bonus action attack > Hold Person = win). Next turn, drop the person by putting all attacks on it. Now you are 1*lvl 20 against 2 lvl9, probably the martial ones, your probability to win just spiked to 90%.

Note that, in all cases, winning Initiative (or at least having no more than 1-2 characters before you start) is a requirement to have any decent chance to win, meaning maxed DEX, or Alert, or Lucky, or all three. XD

3. He has certainly more ASI, but that's not the main point.
A Fighter has 7 ASI total.
He will always max his attack stat. 5 more.
He will most of the time take Resilient:Wisdom because it's just too dangerous otherwise. 4 more.
Mobile is a given for any melee Fighter because it further expands his defense and mobility, so it's only 3 more, and he will obviously take either GWM (STR, two-handed) or Dual Wielder/Defensive Duelist (TWF). so it's 2 more.
For a ranged Fighter, the Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert is an evidence. So it's two more.

You still have to choose, for a melee, between Sentinel, Polearm Master (especially paired with the previous), Mage Slayer (great for mobile Fighters), Tavern Brawler (with Dual Wielder), Shield Master (S&B shove action), Grappler (STR versatile).
Any Fighter could be interested in Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Tough, Lucky, Healer, Alert, Skulker (ranged). Or even more out-of-combat versatility with Skilled, Observant or Actor.
Many Eldricht Knights will be interested in Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Warcaster or Elemental Adept.

And you are telling us that "Alert" would be the obvious go-to feat for any Fighter?
Sorry, sir, but certainly not. This is a clear bias for our particular context, nothing more. :)
And without this feat, even a (STR) Champion will need a sheer amount of luck to beat Wizard, Rogue or even Bard (especially with Jack of all Trades) or Cleric (if Guidance biais) to the Initiative.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, you are also wrong about "Fighter having 8 attacks in a round being the double of what a party can do".
First, it's potentially nine with GWM provided you indeed kill someone. XD
Second, in the party you have a Fighter (Action Surge), a Cleric (Spiritual Weapon), a Rogue (dual-wielding if you went close enough). That's already up to between 7 (conservative options) and 10 (best-case options) attacks against you, not including what the Bard and Wizard could do.

[Ruslan]

Since the posted wizard was not legal, I changed him a bit, making him a diviner, and also a bit different spell list.
Also, as noted above the BBEG could not have started with two 16's. I have removed GWM from his list of feats (wasn't going to use it anyway), and this gave him the extra ASI to bring Str/Cha both to 20.

Here we go:

Fight #1: BBEG has 13 for initiative, Party has 7. BBEG goes first.

Wizard's portent rolls = (11, 20). Wizard has Mage Armor on.

- Action: activate 20th level capstone.
- Bonus action: shadows attack against the Wizard. 12+11=23. Wizard can't negate it with Shield, takes a hit for 3d10+5 = 15 damage.
- Movement: None.

- Rogue circles around, snipes at Disadvantage (7,14 = miss). Bonus Action to hide.

- Cleric hits the BBEG with Flame Strike. 8d6 damage, REF save for half: 2+5=7 (fails), takes 30 damage.
He stays in the back row

- Fighter approaches the BBEG. BBEG gets an attack as a Reaction. 11+12=23. Hit. Smites with a 4th level slot, for 1d10+11+1d8+5d8 = 44 damage
Fighter takes Action Surge, attacks 5 times with Disadvantage (12,20 [from Portent] = hit, 8,7 = miss, 12,18 = hit, 15,12 = hit, 13,9 = miss).
1d10+5+1d8 (Disarming Strike) = 14 damage (7 due to Resistance), BBEG rolls 10 on his save (10+10=20, success)
1d10+5+1d8 (Disarming Strike) = 13 damage (7 due to Resistance), BBEG rolls 8 on his save (8+10=18, success)
1d10+5+1d8 (Disarming Strike) = 17 damage (9 due to Resistance), BBEG rolls 18 on his save (18+10=28, success)
Fighter would really like to heal himself with Second Wind, but is out of Bonus Action.

- Wizard: casts SLOW, BBEG save: 13+11=24 (success)
He then hangs around in the back row

Summary: BBEG took 30+7+7+9 = 53 damage

- Action: attack the Fighter 7+12 = 19 (hit) Smite with 4th level slot = 1d10+11+1d8+5d8 = 43 damage.
Fighter is down, having taken 87 damage (had 76)
- Move: advance toward the Cleric.
- Bonus Action: Polearm attack, 7+12=19, which just misses the Cleric's AC 20

- Rogue, hidden, snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting each other. Gets 11 portent from the Wizard, 11+9=20, which just hits. 1d8+5+5d6 = 27 damage (down to 14 due to Resistance)
- Bonus Action: hide again.

- Cleric: Bonus Action to heal the Fighter with Healing Word. Fighter is at 1d4+5+3 = 10.
Action: can only cast cantrips, so Sacred Flame. BBEG reflex save: 9+5=14, fails. 2d8+5 = 14 damage.

- Fighter stands up and approaches the BBEG. Two attacks: (9,13 = miss, turned into a hit by Precision Strike, 4,14 = miss). Damage: 1d10+5 = 9 (5 due to Resistance)
Bonus Action: Second Wind, healing 1d10+9 = 15 damage, up to 25.

- Wizard casts Scorching Ray from a 5th level slot (six rays)
(12,13=hit, 15,9=miss, 12,12=hit, 2,12=miss, 1,20=miss, 8,13=miss)
two hits for 4d6 (15 damage)

Cleric, Rogue: healthy
Fighter: 22 hit points out of 76
Wizard: 32 hit points out of 47

BBEG: 63 hit points out of 164


- Action: attack the Cleric 18+12 = 30 (hit) Smite with 4th level slot = 1d10+11+1d8+5d8 = 46 damage.
Attack the Cleric again, natural 1 (miss)
Bonus Action: attack the Cleric 14+12=26 (hit), smiting with 3rd level slot = 1d10+11+1d8+4d8 = 40 damage. Cleric is down.
- Move: None

Rogue: healthy
Cleric: down
Fighter: 22 hit points out of 76
Wizard: 32 hit points out of 47

BBEG: 63 hit points out of 164



- Rogue, hidden, snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting each other. rolls a 20(!). 2d8+5+10d6 = 50 damage (down to 25 due to Resistance)
- Bonus Action: hide again.

Fighter attacks 3 times with Disadvantage (7,14 = miss turned into hit with Precision Attack, 1,13 = miss, 2,20 = miss)
1d10+5 = 12 damage (6 due to Resistance)

Wizard fires 6 Magic Missiles from a 4th level slot (6d4+6 = 21 damage)

BBEG down to 11.

- Uses Lay Hands to bring himself back to 111 hit points.
- Bonus Action: shadows attack Wizard, spell attack 7+11=18, a hit negated with Shield.


Rogue, hidden, snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting each other. 10+9=19, miss
Bonus Action: hide again.

Fighter attacks 3 times with Disadvantage (5,7 = miss, 19,5 = miss, 19,3 = miss)

Wizard fires 6 magic missiles from a 4th level slot (6d4+6 = 21 damage), BBEG down to 90.



Attacks Fighter once 7+12=19 (hit), smites with a 3rd level spell = 1d10+11+1d8+4d8 = 38 damage. Fighter is down.
Moves toward the Wizard, attacks the Wizard with his second main attack.
7+12=19, a hit turned into a miss with Shield.
Bonus attack, 14+12=26, a hit, smite with a 3rd level slot, 1d4+11+1d8+4d8 = 34 damage, Wizard is down.

This leaves the BBEG at 90 hit points, against just the Rogue.



Rogue, hidden, snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting each other. 15+9=24, hit. No Sneak attack, just 1d8+5=12 damage (6 due to Resistance)
Bonus Action, hide


Perception check 10+7 vs Rogue's Stealth check 10+13. Rogue remains hidden.
Action: takes another perception check, 16+7, success. Detects the Rogue.
Move: gets into the Rogue's face.
Bonus Action: Shield of Faith.


After being found out, the Rogue exits from hiding and takes his last stand, fighting with two shortswords.
(9,15 = miss, 14,19 = hit), for 1d6+5 = 8 damage (4 due to Resistance). BBEG CON save to keep the concentration on SoF: 5+6=11 (success)



Two Glaive attacks, smiting with 2nd level slots on a hit
3+12 = miss
17+12 = hit, 1d10+11+1d8+3d8 = 35 damage, rogue halves with Uncanny Dodge to 18.
Bonus attack
19+12 = hit, 1d4+11+1d8+3d8 = 33 damage, rogue is down to 15 hit points out of 66.

At this point, any hit is likely to kill the rogue, even with Uncanny Dodge. He takes Withdraw as a bonus action and escapes.
An hour later, he's scouting the local taverns for a new group of adventurers to recruit. He tells them how he and his comrades-in-arms came very close to deposing the Evil Overlord. Perhaps of they try once more, with better preparation ... a gruff dwarven priest, a bookish gnome, and a glaive-wielding human warrior join the call. They head toward the castle again.

TO BE CONTINUED.

I'm sure I made mistakes and sub-optimal plays for both sides. That's life.

[Sigreid]

Assuming no magic items on either side. A average 20 fighter has a pretty decent chance of being taken out of the fight by a single casting of Dominate. It depends entirely on the actual characters involved, but I think the odds are pretty against most of the martials.

[Lolzyking]

A level 20 open hand monk would kill the party in 4 turns, after laughing for 5 turns until someone passed the sanctuary save.

At which point the monk, who has proficiency in all saves will run up to the party's healer, punch them, then laugh as he tells them "you are already dead" their head then explodes.

this continues each turn until the last man is by himself, the monk then proceeds to punch him, over, and over, and over then blows them up like his friends.

[Pichu]

Without exact stats of the level 20 character, it's hard to say. But here is the XP budget of five level 9 characters:

Easy: 2750 XP
Medium: 5500 XP
Hard: 8000 XP
Deadly: 12000 XP

A level 20 monster will be worth 25000 XP, and there's a really good chance a level 20 character will have their CR around there, plus or minus one. Which means that this will most likely be a TPK.

A level 20 character will have a lot of attack power. If they get even one turn, they can drop one or two of those players immediately. With Action Surge (if they were a fighter), they can drop three or four. A Ranger will similarly have four attacks with Swift Quiver. A Paladin has only two attacks, but has Divine Smite. Barbarians will have four attacks too with the Frenzy Path (including bonus action and reaction), while they will be incredibly tanky with the Bear Totem path and thus hard to kill.

If the party gets a drop on him, maybe they can take him out. But the more likely scenario, if metagaming within reason is allowed, is the party dies.

Looking over this, I think you are severly overestimating the power of a level 20 character. A level 9 Fighter (14 Con) has an average HP of 67.5. A level 20 fighter could do (2d6+5)*8 damage, or 16d6+40. This averages out to 56. If I add a +3 weapon and he blows all 6 of his battlemaster die, that bumps it up to 16d6+6d8+64, which is 147. Sure, that could OHKO, but not likely. Anyways, that is assuming all attacks hit and the PCs (being the idiots they are) decide to full on attack him. If they come up with a battle plan, it would be an easy fight. Cheers!

[Specter]

Ruslan, your fight was interesting, but I felt like poor choices were all around on the party's side. No subclass bonuses for the rogue? And no wall/control spells from the Wizard? Like, a Wall of Stone would shut the villain until the cleric could heal everybody and they readied an action, at least. The cleric could also have used his Channel Divinity to heal a lot instead of Sacred Flaming for negligible damage.

And to all the many disinformed people in this thread: read the Player's Handbook before posting here. Unconscious is far from dead in 5e.

[Specter]

It depends on prioritization, some Wizards might value Dex over Con, and if you want to get your primary stat to 20 you pretty much have to put both ASI into that stat, making for very little wiggle room on the others.

There's no priorization at all. On a standard array, CON is the 14. Any decent Wizard will have CON as a secondary stat. CON governs your existence, your concentration checks and the most dangerous save around, while DEX governs AC and initiative, two things which are nice but more vital to other people. In a best case scenario, CON and DEX will be equal (as for High Elf, for instance). But nice move on making a bad Wizard just to see him fall immediately.

[SharkForce]

This post came a little late, but it is important that it be said regardless:

Regardless of build, the 20th level martial cannot pull a Death Adder (from Golden Axe) and just sit on his throne enjoying the scenery. From the general description, he has terrain advantage, so it's reasonable to assume he had the time to know the terrain, to set simple alarms and traps, and to utilize the environment to the best of his ability. Just sitting in a throne waiting for a well balanced group to arrive is basically suicide.

I think its reasonable to assume the martial had the common sense to stock up on supplies, lock and barricade all doors and windows, map as much of the terrain as possible and prepare for a long siege. Castles are naturally built to favor the defender, thus a smart level 20 character can obtain a possibly insurmountable advantage.

Of course this runs the risk of turning what was supposed to be a pitched battle into a slow cat-and-mouse game, not necessarily something pleasant to DM over.

there is no indication the martial was expecting to fight a level 9 party. there is nothing indicating the level 20 has had more than a few hours, tops, to set up. it would be an incredible achievement to put meaningful traps in more than one room, let alone the entire castle.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

snip
For your Battlemaster, I think he probably has enough feats to pick up Resilient: Wisdom, which will help with the saving throws. And he can still grab +4 Dex (to raise to 20), Alert, Sharpshooter, Magic Initiate: Bless and have one ASL left. Hm... If you're fighting indoors, so the range difference doesn't matter, you might want to use a Hand Crossbow instead of a longbow and spend that last ASL on Crossbow Expert for an extra attack and no penalty for ranged attacks in melee.

As you said, Archery fighting style and precision attack will let him use Sharpshooter reliably, especially since he can save Precision Attack for when he knows the attack roll is close but probably not good enough. Even more so if he's got Bless. Eight or nine attacks with +10 damage riders that hit reliably will definitely be felt by mid-level characters. Even without a magic weapon that's +6+5+2+1d4-5, +1d12 whenever you think you need it to hit. Or +10.5 with an additional +6.5 whenever you think you need it. Throw even a +2 magic weapon on there and missing becomes quite unlikely.

[russdm]

I personally would have gone with making a Half-Orc Bear Totem Barbarian. The 3rd level Bear Totem ability gives Damage Reduction, and then a weapon more suited to be used by an ogre or a giant. Barbarian with a Big Fracking Sword.

Feats would increase both his damage, and how quickly he can act, because Dex is the king of god stats followed by Con. Unless, you want to make a Champion Fighter as a Half-Orc. Could also go with Dragonborn as Bear Totem Barbarian, allowing for a breathe weapon.

The reason? All of the extra attacks, plus the Damage Reduction. I will have to scour my copy of the PHB some more though to make up something. Maybe tomorrow, I could have something.

[Citan]

There's no priorization at all. On a standard array, CON is the 14. Any decent Wizard will have CON as a secondary stat. CON governs your existence, your concentration checks and the most dangerous save around, while DEX governs AC and initiative, two things which are nice but more vital to other people. In a best case scenario, CON and DEX will be equal (as for High Elf, for instance). But nice move on making a bad Wizard just to see him fall immediately.
I have to disagree on that part, in any game with feats at least.
DEX governs Initiative, AC and Dex saves (which Wizard is not proficient in).
Wizard can always take Resilient: Constitution to make his concentration much better. And as far as HP goes, having 20 more HP by the end won't make much of a difference considering how hurting are enemy attacks at high-level and how lesser an AC you have compared to a Wizard with maxed DEX and Mage Armor.

Unless he's built to go into melee (unless Bladesinger I see really no reason), he will always stay as far as possible from the front lines, closing in just enough to get targets in the range of his spells then backing away. So the main dangers will be ranged attacks and DEX spells usually (there are some long-range save or suck spells, but as far as I can remember they are fairly rare).

So I would see more easily a Wizard max DEX so he is decent in DEX saves, has a high chance of winning Initiative (either to buff himelf for defense, or immediately cast a battlefield control spell to even the odds) and has as good an AC as a Fighter in heavy plate armor.

(Of course, as far as DEX saves are concerned, you could very well bump CON instead and take Resilient: Dexterity: but then you are lacking the AC against attacks, and lesser Initiative. And between maxing INT, secondary stat, and the Resilient, you don't have any space for Alert).


For your Battlemaster, I think he probably has enough feats to pick up Resilient: Wisdom, which will help with the saving throws. And he can still grab +4 Dex (to raise to 20), Alert, Sharpshooter, Magic Initiate: Bless and have one ASL left. Hm... If you're fighting indoors, so the range difference doesn't matter, you might want to use a Hand Crossbow instead of a longbow and spend that last ASL on Crossbow Expert for an extra attack and no penalty for ranged attacks in melee.

As you said, Archery fighting style and precision attack will let him use Sharpshooter reliably, especially since he can save Precision Attack for when he knows the attack roll is close but probably not good enough. Even more so if he's got Bless. Eight or nine attacks with +10 damage riders that hit reliably will definitely be felt by mid-level characters. Even without a magic weapon that's +6+5+2+1d4-5, +1d12 whenever you think you need it to hit. Or +10.5 with an additional +6.5 whenever you think you need it. Throw even a +2 magic weapon on there and missing becomes quite unlikely.
I didn't take any magic weapon into account because imo, starting to put magic items in a "theorycraft" play (aka no restriction on what you can get, no explanation/history on how you got it) is the worst kind of Pandora's Box you could open.:smallbiggrin:

Bless was a small touch, I mean, I was just wondering what useful thing he could spend his last ASI on and thought "since we are allowed to metagame a bit, what the hell? Let's improve offense and defense for the big fight!" XD
Still, he may or may not decide to use it, especially during the first rounds where action economy is far against him. And if he drops at least two casters, it may seem a better choice to him to continue on his hitting storm instead of "wasting" a precious action on Bless.

With that said, I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed for both sides to "Ready" an action with a trigger like "as soon as I see the enemy" or "as soon as I am behind / I enter the room's door".
In which case, Fighter could have Bless at the start of the fight.
It also means though that Cleric could have Warding Bonds / Shield of Faith prepared, Wizard have Haste / Greater Invisibility, Wizard Mirror Image / Greater Invisibility / Blur etc.
So it would probably advantage the party further. XD


I personally would have gone with making a Half-Orc Bear Totem Barbarian. The 3rd level Bear Totem ability gives Damage Reduction, and then a weapon more suited to be used by an ogre or a giant. Barbarian with a Big Fracking Sword.

Feats would increase both his damage, and how quickly he can act, because Dex is the king of god stats followed by Con. Unless, you want to make a Champion Fighter as a Half-Orc. Could also go with Dragonborn as Bear Totem Barbarian, allowing for a breathe weapon.

The reason? All of the extra attacks, plus the Damage Reduction. I will have to scour my copy of the PHB some more though to make up something. Maybe tomorrow, I could have something.
It's an interesting idea indeed. However, my guess about why it wasn't picked yet would be...
- Lack of utility (compared to an Eldricht Knight, Battlemaster, any Rogue or any half-caster), especially for spike mobility or defense.
- Lack of diverse tactics: he does one thing great, that's hitting, but that's about it: no Indomitable to help against save or suck spells, no great ranged attack unless you built him as such, more importantly, he totally relies on vision: so any spell blocking vision, either by walling or by blinding you, will make you more or less powerless.

So although he would resist damage very well, if he cannot act anyways because of a save or suck spell or otherwise, he's doomed.

[Specter]

I personally would have gone with making a Half-Orc Bear Totem Barbarian. The 3rd level Bear Totem ability gives Damage Reduction, and then a weapon more suited to be used by an ogre or a giant. Barbarian with a Big Fracking Sword.

Feats would increase both his damage, and how quickly he can act, because Dex is the king of god stats followed by Con. Unless, you want to make a Champion Fighter as a Half-Orc. Could also go with Dragonborn as Bear Totem Barbarian, allowing for a breathe weapon.

The reason? All of the extra attacks, plus the Damage Reduction. I will have to scour my copy of the PHB some more though to make up something. Maybe tomorrow, I could have something.

With a non-Frenzy Barbarian, the Wizard just has to cast Dominate Person or Tasha's and wait for his buddies to swarm the boss. Too easy. Even Frenzy suffers with a good Banishment.

As for the whole DEX vs. CON, the fact that Wizards get Resilient (CON) instead of (DEX) just shows that DEX is at most equal to CON in importance. There's always Absorb Elements.

[Vogonjeltz]

There's no priorization at all. On a standard array, CON is the 14. Any decent Wizard will have CON as a secondary stat. CON governs your existence, your concentration checks and the most dangerous save around, while DEX governs AC and initiative, two things which are nice but more vital to other people. In a best case scenario, CON and DEX will be equal (as for High Elf, for instance). But nice move on making a bad Wizard just to see him fall immediately.

With a +2 dex that wizard won't get their turn. As demonstrated a champion would easily have 8-10 points higher on their roll, plus if they wanted lucky, a much better roll.

[Unoriginal]

Aren't people over-hyping Banishment?

If the level 20 character has no goons that need to be separated form them, nor is from another plane, wouldn't it be a waste to cast Banishment on them?

[Vorpalchicken]

It would allow ten rounds of healing, buffs, traps, trap-like spells and four members to get off a prepared action.

[Specter]

With a +2 dex that wizard won't get their turn. As demonstrated a champion would easily have 8-10 points higher on their roll, plus if they wanted lucky, a much better roll.

Why would you assume Champion? Why would you assume the Wizard won't take a feat like Lucky or Alert? A wizard with +2 DEX is still more dexterous than most villains.

But in your extremely specific scenario, then yeah, sure, Wizard's down. Cleric just revived him.

[Vorpalchicken]

Sometimes I think a lot of people on these boards don't actually play the game.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Aren't people over-hyping Banishment?

If the level 20 character has no goons that need to be separated form them, nor is from another plane, wouldn't it be a waste to cast Banishment on them?

No. It wouldn't be great to open with, but you could fight a few rounds, banish them, heal and buff, then let the banishment lapse, rinse and repeat until you win.

[Waazraath]

This fight seems heaviliy in favour of the 9th level characters. Action economy because being outnumbered, but also that the BBEG is sitting on the throne and waiting. Also the throneroom being 1 big room where he can get ganged up and hardly can use terrain features (does it have windows and other exits btw?)

If he was allowed some interesting tactics (having a familiair scout when the party arrives, shoot arrows from behind the castle wall, setting traps, being invisible and surprise the party, being hidden while having an illusion sit on the throne as eldritch knight, etc.) it would have been easier.

But like this? You almost automaticly have to optimize the BBEG for this fight, making it dex based, with alert, to be able to take out 1 or more of the partymembers at the beginning of the fight to even the odds. Even then, against a clever party I don't think he survives.

If I had to build one, I'd go oathbreaker, and use animate dead on the corpses of the king and his retinue, and get my my warhorse in the throne room. His aura would make the skeletens of zombies do decent damage. Then he could be sitting there on the throne waiting, but at least with some assistance.

[Rhedyn]

Monk. Empty body + diamond soul + stuns + solid damage = dead party.

[Vogonjeltz]

Aren't people over-hyping Banishment?

If the level 20 character has no goons that need to be separated form them, nor is from another plane, wouldn't it be a waste to cast Banishment on them?

Yes, pretty much. The one thing that Banishment might net the party is time to cast more spells or get downed characters back on their feet. So there is some hypothetical value there.

The problem is there's no guarantee Banishment would even work. Paladins have high saves, Monks have high saves, Fighters are Indomitable. Even if the caster put all their stat points into their casting stat, they'd still fail about 25% of the time, at which point it's safe to assume the 20th level character would simply level them.


Why would you assume Champion? Why would you assume the Wizard won't take a feat like Lucky or Alert? A wizard with +2 DEX is still more dexterous than most villains.

But in your extremely specific scenario, then yeah, sure, Wizard's down. Cleric just revived him.

Because why wouldn't I assume Champion? It was an open-ended question and Champion is a martial.

Wizard only has access to 2 ASI, if they don't put both into Int they won't maximize their to-hit and their DC will be meh.

And that's just to try and get some parity on Initiative in order to get a single turn.

Cleric could use Revivify...if they had the expensive material component in hand, but that costs them their entire turn AND the Wizard comes back with 1 hit point, easily killed yet again on the next round (that's assuming of course that the Cleric didn't have their hands full with a shield and weapon, making Revivify impossible to execute on their turn (they'd have to put their weapon away, and pulling out the proper component would require an action....making it 2 used-turns, assuming the Cleric even lived that long, and there's nothing that would have prevented the Fighter from knocking the component out of their hands before they can even cast!)

[Specter]

Because why wouldn't I assume Champion? It was an open-ended question and Champion is a martial.

Wizard only has access to 2 ASI, if they don't put both into Int they won't maximize their to-hit and their DC will be meh.

And that's just to try and get some parity on Initiative in order to get a single turn.

Cleric could use Revivify...if they had the expensive material component in hand, but that costs them their entire turn AND the Wizard comes back with 1 hit point, easily killed yet again on the next round (that's assuming of course that the Cleric didn't have their hands full with a shield and weapon, making Revivify impossible to execute on their turn (they'd have to put their weapon away, and pulling out the proper component would require an action....making it 2 used-turns, assuming the Cleric even lived that long, and there's nothing that would have prevented the Fighter from knocking the component out of their hands before they can even cast!)

So you understand that all other STR melees other than Champion couldn't beat the Wizard to initiative? OK. Because if we're talking about initiative, we must talk about it in general, not specifically. Otherwise, I'll get myself a Diviner or a Human Wizard with Alert. Solved.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, by 'revived' I meant 'brought back from 0'. Because even if the bad guy dropped him like that, he's just dropped, not dead. Or would he waste another three attacks on a 'wizard finale'?

(And the cleric could drop his weapon for free and pick a component as an object interaction... but that's just stretching an argument.)

[Citan]

So you understand that all other STR melees other than Champion couldn't beat the Wizard to initiative? OK. Because if we're talking about initiative, we must talk about it in general, not specifically. Otherwise, I'll get myself a Diviner or a Human Wizard with Alert. Solved.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, by 'revived' I meant 'brought back from 0'. Because even if the bad guy dropped him like that, he's just dropped, not dead. Or would he waste another three attacks on a 'wizard finale'?
I won't jump into your argument otherwise (although I'd tend to agree with you on the Initiative point ^^), but I think you would be unfair in considering that the Fighter would not finish and kill the Wizard.
Obviously just dropping it would be stupid, because there are at least 2 people among enemies that would certainly get him back up.
On the other hand, with 8-9 attacks in a round, you have a decent chance (NOT a "great" chance though, confer my post about Shield and otherwise) of dropping the Wizard into 5 hits. And if you manage to do that, obviously the right thing to do is use the last 3 strikes to kill it. Even only 2 hits may be enough considering, on an unconscious creature you get advantage and autocrit on hit, which means 2 "failed death saves" on a single hit so 4 (>3) total.

Because there is a 99% chance that both Cleric and Bard will have Healing Words prepped (not even talking about potential abilities from other classes).
But there will be a fairly low chance that any of them actually has Revivify ready with all components.

Of course, if you see over the course of your attacks that your chances of outright killing the wizard are slim (because of Shield/Warding Bond/Protection Style/Death Ward/Aid/FireShield/Warding Flare/whatever else), it would be probably best to change tactic. :)

[Corran]

Here we go:

Fight #1: BBEG has 13 for initiative, Party has 7. BBEG goes first.
.............

Thanks for taking the time to do this. It was fun to read!





At this point, any hit is likely to kill the rogue, even with Uncanny Dodge. He takes Withdraw as a bonus action and escapes.
An hour later, he's scouting the local taverns for a new group of adventurers to recruit. He tells them how he and his comrades-in-arms came very close to deposing the Evil Overlord. Perhaps of they try once more, with better preparation ... a gruff dwarven priest, a bookish gnome, and a glaive-wielding human warrior join the call. They head toward the castle again.

TO BE CONTINUED.

I hope you find the time and energy to run it again, with the party going first this time.
If not, well, thanks anyway for running it once!

[Dr.Samurai]

So you understand that all other STR melees other than Champion couldn't beat the Wizard to initiative? OK.
The barbarian and the revised ranger both get Advantage on Initiative checks irrespective of their race or archetype. So, are you just talking about the paladin here???

[Specter]

I won't jump into your argument otherwise (although I'd tend to agree with you on the Initiative point ^^), but I think you would be unfair in considering that the Fighter would not finish and kill the Wizard.
Obviously just dropping it would be stupid, because there are at least 2 people among enemies that would certainly get him back up.
On the other hand, with 8-9 attacks in a round, you have a decent chance (NOT a "great" chance though, confer my post about Shield and otherwise) of dropping the Wizard into 5 hits. And if you manage to do that, obviously the right thing to do is use the last 3 strikes to kill it. Even only 2 hits may be enough considering, on an unconscious creature you get advantage and autocrit on hit, which means 2 "failed death saves" on a single hit so 4 (>3) total.

Because there is a 99% chance that both Cleric and Bard will have Healing Words prepped (not even talking about potential abilities from other classes).
But there will be a fairly low chance that any of them actually has Revivify ready with all components.

Of course, if you see over the course of your attacks that your chances of outright killing the wizard are slim (because of Shield/Warding Bond/Protection Style/Death Ward/Aid/FireShield/Warding Flare/whatever else), it would be probably best to change tactic. :)

Of course, it could happen, and it wouldn't be a bad tactic. But back in the thread many were assuming the villain could KILL more than one party member at a time, which is at the very least doubtful.

About initiative, I missed Barbarian, but Ranger is PHB only here.

[Rhedyn]

Also a rogue would wipe any level 9 party. Simply because you would never see her and she could plink the level 9s off, one at a time.

[Specter]

Also a rogue would wipe any level 9 party. Simply because you would never see her and she could plink the level 9s off, one at a time.

You do realize anyone can ready an action for when the rogue appears, which would happen every turn she attacked, right?

[Citan]

Of course, it could happen, and it wouldn't be a bad tactic. But back in the thread many were assuming the villain could KILL more than one party member at a time, which is at the very least doubtful.

Ah, ok, sorry I missed that.
Totally agree with you, having 1 member killed per round would already be a feat in most situations. Two seems highly unlikely to me:)

[Rhedyn]

You do realize anyone can ready an action for when the rogue appears, which would happen every turn she attacked, right?
The sharpshooter assassin or the greater invisible arcane trickster?

[KorvinStarmast]

Sometimes I think a lot of people on these boards don't actually play the game. Ya think? :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

Sometimes I think a lot of people on these boards don't actually play the game.

Why? I'm not sure which side you're arguing for (the 9th level group or the 20th level character), but this comment seems like you're saying this because they disagree with you.

[Ruslan]

Aren't people over-hyping Banishment?

If the level 20 character has no goons that need to be separated form them, nor is from another plane, wouldn't it be a waste to cast Banishment on them?
It's a Time Walk for the party. After 2-3 rounds of combat, cast Banishment.

When the BBEG comes back, the party is:
1. Completely healed (even those that were brough to 0 hp)
2. Under effects of Bless and/or other buffs
3. Sporting a few summoned monsters of Animated Objects
4. A Wall of Fire or some other trap was prepared for when the BBEG reappears

And so on. It's not an "I win" button, but it is a weapon of great power [which is why I think an Oathbreaker Paladin makes the best BBEG, incidentally, because he's proficient in CHA saves and can laugh at Banishment]

[RulesJD]

Monk. Empty body + diamond soul + stuns + solid damage = dead party.

Came here to state this ^^^^^ Monk is by FAAAAR the best Martial class to deal with uncertain situations, especially when low on Action Economy.

Of all the Martial Classes, a Monk would have the easiest time given the environment and need for hit-and-run to avoid the Action Economy imbalance.

Empty Body = non-concentration Invisibility + resist almost all damage.

Diamond Soul = almost certain to pass the ~DC 17 saves.

Stuns + Flurry of Blows = You can likely stun any class that's not proficient in Con Saves, aka the Wizard + Cleric (remember, at advantage on all attacks due to Empty Body).


Personally, I'd go with a Shadow Monk to avoid any sort of restraining conditions (Wall of Force, etc.) via Shadow Step. Access to Silence and Pass Without a Trace will help restrict any spellcasters while making Hit and Run super easy. At-will infinite duration Invisibility = easy peasy Short Rests to recharge Ki.

Open Palm is also good to consider for Nova strike rounds.

Round 1 = Empty Body + Run away.

Round 2 = Run in, Flurry of Blows + Quivering Palm + Stuns on as many PCs as you can. Go for Wizard first on the Stun (prevent WoF), then Cleric for Quivering Palm.

Round 3 = Trigger QP on Cleric. Bonus Action to Dash away. (Alternatively, 2 levels of Fighter = Action Surge then Attack + Flurry of Blows = 1 round guaranteed death for Cleric/Wizard/Bard that fails QP due to 2 failed death saves per hit against 4 at-advantaged attacks).

Round 4 = Even if they bring Cleric back up (Potion, Healing Word, etc) just run in and repeat Flurry of Blows + Stun on Wizard, but focus down the Cleric. 1 hit should drop the Cleric, only need two more to force 3 failed death saves. Poof, no Revivify. If Lore Bard takes Revivify (spell secrets), just rinse/repeat until they're out of 3/4 level spell slots. Or just sacrifice one attack to Grapple the Cleric's body and run away with it.


After that, Wizard next with same tactic. If you run low on Ki, just retreat and find a place to Short Rest. They ain't bringing the Cleric back so each player will stay dead.

[Ruslan]

Combat #2, party wins initiative. This one was short, with everyone just dogpiling the BBEG. Also, better preparation FTW. Magic Weapon apparently has duration measured in hours, and is therefore a legal prebuff. It ended up being huge for not only the measly bonus, but mostly for overcoming Resistance.

- Wizard has Mage Armor
- Cleric has Magic Weapon from a 4th level slot (on fighter's Glaive, making it +2)

Rogue: Moves sideways to get a clear shot, Bonus action to hide, readies an action "shoot the BBEG when an ally engages him in melee"
Wizard: Fireball from a 5th level slot for 10d6 damage (Reflex save failed), 35 damage
Fighter: charges the BBEG [gets an OA due to Polearm Master, 1d10+11+6d8 = 44 damage, but survives it]
- at this point, readied action triggers, rogue hits with Sneak Attack for (1d8+5+5d6)/2 = 14 damage
- Fighter attacks 5 times with Action Surge, three hits for 1d10+1d8+7, 1d10+1d8+7, 1d4+1d8+7, one miss-turned-into-hit with Precision Attack for 1d10+7
(resistance does not apply since the weapon is magical), total 59 damage.
Cleric: Flame Strike (reflex save succeeded), 8d6/2 = 14 damage

BBEG has taken 121 damage already (down to 43 hp), and he hasn't even taken a turn.

Activate 20th level Capstone, bonus action to heal himself with 5th level Healing Word (up to 60 hp)

Rogue uses Bonus Action to hide, then snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting, misses
Wizard: readied action to cast Fireball on the BBEG with the condition "fighter attempts to move"
Fighter: attacks three times with Disadvantage, one hit for 1d4+7 = 9 damage, one miss-turned-into-hit with Precision Attack for 1d10+7 = 12 damage, BBEG down to 39
then Fighter tries to move, circling the BBEG, which triggers the readied action - Fireball from a 4th level slot, dealing 30 the BBEG, bringing him down to 9. This also
friendly-fires the Fighter, who's down to 2 out of 76.
Cleric: Action: Sacred Flame - BBEG Reflex failed, and 2d8+5 damage (14) downs him.

[Citan]

Combat #2, party wins initiative. This one was short, with everyone just dogpiling the BBEG. Also, better preparation FTW. Magic Weapon apparently has duration measured in hours, and is therefore a legal prebuff. It ended up being huge for not only the measly bonus, but mostly for overcoming Resistance.

- Wizard has Mage Armor
- Cleric has Magic Weapon from a 4th level slot (on fighter's Glaive, making it +2)

Rogue: Moves sideways to get a clear shot, Bonus action to hide, readies an action "shoot the BBEG when an ally engages him in melee"
Wizard: Fireball from a 5th level slot for 10d6 damage (Reflex save failed), 35 damage
Fighter: charges the BBEG [gets an OA due to Polearm Master, 1d10+11+6d8 = 44 damage, but survives it]
- at this point, readied action triggers, rogue hits with Sneak Attack for (1d8+5+5d6)/2 = 14 damage
- Fighter attacks 5 times with Action Surge, three hits for 1d10+1d8+7, 1d10+1d8+7, 1d4+1d8+7, one miss-turned-into-hit with Precision Attack for 1d10+7
(resistance does not apply since the weapon is magical), total 59 damage.
Cleric: Flame Strike (reflex save succeeded), 8d6/2 = 14 damage

BBEG has taken 121 damage already (down to 43 hp), and he hasn't even taken a turn.

Activate 20th level Capstone, bonus action to heal himself with 5th level Healing Word (up to 60 hp)

Rogue uses Bonus Action to hide, then snipes with Advantage and Disadvantage offsetting, misses
Wizard: readied action to cast Fireball on the BBEG with the condition "fighter attempts to move"
Fighter: attacks three times with Disadvantage, one hit for 1d4+7 = 9 damage, one miss-turned-into-hit with Precision Attack for 1d10+7 = 12 damage, BBEG down to 39
then Fighter tries to move, circling the BBEG, which triggers the readied action - Fireball from a 4th level slot, dealing 30 the BBEG, bringing him down to 9. This also
friendly-fires the Fighter, who's down to 2 out of 76.
Cleric: Action: Sacred Flame - BBEG Reflex failed, and 2d8+5 damage (14) downs him.
Well, it went as expected.
BBEG that lost Initiative has lost the fight unless tremendous amount of luck on his side... XD

Not sure about choice of Wizard to cast Fireball though: I get that it was the most intensive damage-spell that target DEX, but he could also either cast Animate Objects (great action economy, flying speed), Bigby's Hand (to grapple) or Conjure Elemental (Earth for tanky ally, Water to try and grapple, Fire to set on autofire)...
Or even a Wall of Force to trap the BBEG while the whole party prepares to unleash hell on him...
Obviously any Wizard would not have every above spell prepared, but I'd be surprised that none of them would be available though. :)

Even an Earth Tremor could have been a good choice since it knocks prone (advantage to closing in Fighter).
Or an Immolation (dex save, sheds light, auto damage).
Or an EarthBind (restrained)...

Anyways. Thank you very much for running both simulations. :)

[Ruslan]

Citan, I see your point, but a Concentration spell is not the best choice against a BBEG able to inflict 3d10+5 at will as a Bonus Action. Losing the animated objects before they even took an action would hurt. I went for the sure thing - lots of damage against a (relatively weak) Dex save.

[Specter]

And the Oathbreaker doesn't even have Healing Word, so he would have been KO'd much faster.

For those who said 'at least one of them will die': any questions?

[Dr.Samurai]

For those who said 'at least one of them will die': any questions?
I didn't make this claim, though I do believe the 20th level has a chance to win. But, what are you trying to intimate with this question? That this example proves the 20th level has no chance?

[Specter]

I didn't make this claim, though I do believe the 20th level has a chance to win. But, what are you trying to intimate with this question? That this example proves the 20th level has no chance?

Not at all; the 20th level can win on the right circumstances. But to those who thought that for the party to win at least one of them would die, it must have been a shock.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, especially if they all win initiative, it is unlikely he gets to kill one before going down. Though maybe a fighter might have if he decided to action surge and focus fire, and maybe use the bonus action on Second Wind (still not enough to survive, but he might take someone out).

[Vogonjeltz]

So you understand that all other STR melees other than Champion couldn't beat the Wizard to initiative? OK. Because if we're talking about initiative, we must talk about it in general, not specifically. Otherwise, I'll get myself a Diviner or a Human Wizard with Alert. Solved.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, by 'revived' I meant 'brought back from 0'. Because even if the bad guy dropped him like that, he's just dropped, not dead. Or would he waste another three attacks on a 'wizard finale'?

(And the cleric could drop his weapon for free and pick a component as an object interaction... but that's just stretching an argument.)

Ah, I thought death because that's what I had indicated in the post you had responded to.

Barbarians have advantage on initiative checks, so they could easily outstrip the Wizard.

Rangers, Rogues, and Monks are very likely to have maximized Dexterity (whereas the Wizard has not).

Really only Paladins don't have any particular incentive to have a higher Dexterity score, nor a special feature granting advantage on initiative. Then again, Paladins don't seem like the kind of characters to kill a king and usurp their throne in the first place.

I agree that the Diviner alone, out of all the Wizard schools, has a small small chance of successfully triumphing over the Fighter in initiative. But if (and only if) they get incredibly lucky on the morning rolls, and as mentioned getting Alert makes them borderline useless even if they're alive, as the lower ability score makes their features that much less likely to land if fired.

Furthermore, as you noted, it's clearly worth it to expend the bonus action and a single further attack for an automatic critical hit on the downed Wizard that, in all probability, instantly kills them.

For your awareness, it only requires 2 attacks. Each melee attack (that hits) is an automatic critical against an Unconscious creature (PHB 292), and each critical hit counts as two failures (PHB 197).

Technically, if the Wizard beats the Cleric on initiative, but loses to the Fighter, they could get away with just using a single attack, and there'd be a 50% chance the Wizard dies on their own, before the Cleric can even act. Personally in my planning I tend to prefer a sure thing, so I'd just spend the extra attack to ensure the Wizard dies immediately, then go after the Cleric (or Bard, he's practically as fragile as the Wizard).


Of course, if you see over the course of your attacks that your chances of outright killing the wizard are slim (because of Shield/Warding Bond/Protection Style/Death Ward/Aid/FireShield/Warding Flare/whatever else), it would be probably best to change tactic. :)

Are we positing that the Cleric has burned how many spell slots now?

Death Ward is a 4th lvl spell (Cleric can cast up to 3) and effectively intercepts a single hit. Which would be fine if it wasn't so likely that the Wizard gets dropped in the first volley to begin with. Assuming they want to protect the most vulnerable members of the party (Wizard, Bard, Cleric?) that burns all their 4th level spell slots.

One tactic mentioned included Banishment which also requires a 4th level slot...of course it's very unlikely that any party member has "an item distasteful to the target" so I question whether Banishment can even be attempted in such a context. So that goes out the window if you want to have effective Death Wards.

Warding Bond is a 2nd level spell (leaving 2), Protection Style won't be useful if the Fighter isn't standing adjacent to the Wizard as combat begins, Aid requires 2nd level slots of which there are only 2 remaining (so only 2 party members can have it if Warding Bond is employed) and is a measily 5 HP, Fireshield requires the Wizard to win initiative (buffs in minutes may not be precast) and does nothing to actually reduce incoming harm, and of course Warding Flare is limited to one specific Domain, so I would imagine you already see the flaws in that. Furthermore, Light Domain precludes the Cleric from heavy armor (requires Life, Nature, Tempest, or War), making them a clear sitting duck and target of choice (which would also negate the value of Warding Bond entirely).

Cleric can't bring themselves back from the dead (and Bards don't have it).


And the Oathbreaker doesn't even have Healing Word, so he would have been KO'd much faster.

For those who said 'at least one of them will die': any questions?

Well, for one thing I said it in regards to a well designed character, not one apparently deliberately designed to fail.

Nor for that matter does Ruslan's test come remotely close to passing the sniff test.
His combat choices are straight up meta-gamed specifically to get around class features, target character stats that would be totally unknown to the party. Further, Ruslan set arbitrary ground rules outside the scope of the actual game in order to favor a party over a single character, a number of which were previously outlined.

It's just a typical garbage in, garbage out, scenario.

The sad part is that all those were easily avoidable errors that end up tainting any value the exercise possibly could have held.


Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, especially if they all win initiative, it is unlikely he gets to kill one before going down. Though maybe a fighter might have if he decided to action surge and focus fire, and maybe use the bonus action on Second Wind (still not enough to survive, but he might take someone out).

Or what even the Paladin ought to have done if they were supposed to be a tiny bit intelligent, leave the room instead of standing still and taking a shellacking. Seriously, why did the Paladin decide to stay put? Nothing the party did hindered the Dreadlords movement in the slightest.

In tandem with the poor character construction and house rules tilted in favor of the party, it seems like an all too obvious fix was in.

[Specter]

Barbarians have advantage on initiative checks, so they could easily outstrip the Wizard.

Rangers, Rogues, and Monks are very likely to have maximized Dexterity (whereas the Wizard has not).

Really only Paladins don't have any particular incentive to have a higher Dexterity score, nor a special feature granting advantage on initiative. Then again, Paladins don't seem like the kind of characters to kill a king and usurp their throne in the first place.

I agree that the Diviner alone, out of all the Wizard schools, has a small small chance of successfully triumphing over the Fighter in initiative. But if (and only if) they get incredibly lucky on the morning rolls, and as mentioned getting Alert makes them borderline useless even if they're alive, as the lower ability score makes their features that much less likely to land if fired.

Furthermore, as you noted, it's clearly worth it to expend the bonus action and a single further attack for an automatic critical hit on the downed Wizard that, in all probability, instantly kills them.

For your awareness, it only requires 2 attacks. Each melee attack (that hits) is an automatic critical against an Unconscious creature (PHB 292), and each critical hit counts as two failures (PHB 197).

*snip*

Well, for one thing I said it in regards to a well designed character, not one apparently deliberately designed to fail.

I already stood corrected in terms of Barbarian. As for the others, of course they do, but then again I was talking about STR melees, and full-plate fighters hardly ever have a Dexterity higher than 10.

You can have Alert/Lucky and still have 20 INT. Just be a human. What's wrong with that?

And now I stand corrected on the number of attacks needed to kill someone unconscious. But then again, the main question should be 'why is wizard is a melee position', instead of just hanging back.

Ah, build complaints. Of course they would. Well, why don't you build your own Oathbreaker (or any Paladin, for that matter) so we can judge it? Because I think that three attacks that add so much at-will damage, along with the tankiness of this build, speak for themselves.

EDIT: Let's not forget, Bard hasn't even been added to these simulations yet!

[Unoriginal]

I don't know for you, but almost always in PvP fights I get the impression it comes down to who get the initiative first.

[Citan]

Are we positing that the Cleric has burned how many spell slots now?

Death Ward is a 4th lvl spell (Cleric can cast up to 3) and effectively intercepts a single hit. Which would be fine if it wasn't so likely that the Wizard gets dropped in the first volley to begin with. Assuming they want to protect the most vulnerable members of the party (Wizard, Bard, Cleric?) that burns all their 4th level spell slots.

Warding Bond is a 2nd level spell (leaving 2), Protection Style won't be useful if the Fighter isn't standing adjacent to the Wizard as combat begins, Aid requires 2nd level slots of which there are only 2 remaining (so only 2 party members can have it if Warding Bond is employed) and is a measily 5 HP, Fireshield requires the Wizard to win initiative (buffs in minutes may not be precast) and does nothing to actually reduce incoming harm, and of course Warding Flare is limited to one specific Domain, so I would imagine you already see the flaws in that. Furthermore, Light Domain precludes the Cleric from heavy armor (requires Life, Nature, Tempest, or War), making them a clear sitting duck and target of choice (which would also negate the value of Warding Bond entirely).

Wow. You really take this personally, it's very fun (although also a bit sad) to read.

Just because people give plenty of reasons why the chance to kill a Wizard on the first round should not a reason enough to come that close to anger. XD

I was not suggesting that any and all spells were cast, just that any combination of them was significantly reducing the chance of Fighter to kill a Wizard.

Just a Warding Bond precast by Cleric + Wizard's own Shield makes the kill go from "pretty good chance" to "risky gamble", especially with a Fire Shield stacked on it.

About that, sorry, I don't care about OP rules: in practice, if a Wizard has it prepped (meaning he has the habit of using it OR he prepped it just for today), he will certainly cast it when entering the castle or closing in to throne room if he knows he is gonna face a powerful melee opponent. Which should be the case per the OP description: so I understand why 1mn buff would not be allowed precast, but 10mn... ;)
And anyways, the point isn't to reduce damage taken: it is to make some retaliation: the effect activates EACH TIME you suffer a hit (even if you are unconscious, since it's a non-concentration spell): so even if the Fighter kills you, he will have suffered between 5 and 8 times 2d8 damage. Even on a lvl 20 Fighter, with easily above >150 HP, that's still a significant chunk of life lost, with a minimum average of 45 HP.
At that point, even if Wizard dies indeed, the remaining party has a much better chance of downing his enemy before his next turn comes.

Aid wasn't supposed to be cast as a 2nd level spell either. If you are gonna use it, at least use it to the max. Cast as a lvl 4 spell, it gives 15 HP. Not necessarily the best use of spell slot (I myself don't use it often ;)), but still, it's a pretty good HP increase for the Wizard (and two others). :)

As for Protection, I don't see why the Fighter should be any further than the "frail guys" if, as you always suppose, the BBEG won Initiative. After all, the group should generally enter in the throne room in a tight, tactical formation. There are not suicidal, supposedly.

Just FIY, Valor Bard gets medium armor on a d8, so I don't see how it could be more frail than a Wizard when you don't use resources such as Shield.

Then again, I did not try and pretend being exhaustive in all potential class features or spells that could get in the way of your Fighter (not even accounting for the fact that each party member could Ready an action to do something just as they open the door of the throne room).

Just have the guts to admit that your tactic is very far from a sure-kill in most circumstances (although your chance are indeed reasonably good as long as you win initiative against most guys), and totally irrealistic provided some prerequisites per opposing party composition (any among Bladesinger/Diviner Wizard, Lore Bard, Swashbuckler Rogue, Battlemaster Fighter, Light/Tempest/War) or feats (Alert/Lucky) and let it go. XD

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't know for you, but almost always in PvP fights I get the impression it comes down to who get the initiative first.
It is very likely yes. In this case, five on one is already stacked. All five going first seems almost a pointless demonstration.

[Jamesps]

Also a rogue would wipe any level 9 party. Simply because you would never see her and she could plink the level 9s off, one at a time.

I agree, though for different reasons.

A Rogue (Thief) Could beat the entire party without picking up a 20 sided die.

Take 20 on initiative, then cast meteor swarm. Take 20 on the save to evade.

[Citan]

I agree, though for different reasons.

A Rogue (Thief) Could beat the entire party without picking up a 20 sided die.

Take 20 on initiative, then cast meteor swarm. Take 20 on the save to evade.
Very nice catch about using Stroke of Luck to ensure you have the highest Initiative whatever happens.

Meteor Swarm though? I guess you are talking about casting it from a spell scroll, but I wonder what chances would be in a classic D&d settings to find such one... :)

Also, you would certainly drop Wizard (only chance for him to survive would be to succeed on Dex save AND have Absorb Elements ready), Bard (unless specific Valor Bard with Shield Master feat, but that's very far-stretched) and Cleric (unless Nature Cleric with very high luck on save or any Cleric built as tank with Shield Master feat, both being unlikely).

Rogue? enter Evasion: high chance to get his save, he will laugh away as he slaloms between the falling rocks.
Fighter? If build S&B, he will certainly survive: Indomitable gives a pretty good chance to get the save, and Shield Master should be an obvious choice on a class with that many ASI.

Still, by that point, you probably won indeed, having made it a 2-1 worst case unless totally improbable niche situations ^^. Especially since you get another turn with "Initiative-10" which should not be a big requirement. :)

[Dr.Samurai]

I think the Redeemer Paladin would fare well, but I'm not as familiar with 5E's workings as most of you so I'd like to hear what you think.

Warrior of Reconciliation - Basically, you're trying to get someone on your side. While the cleric might be best, in that he can heal you (since his actions are limited by this feature), the wizard seems the most dangerous to get out of the way. Assuming the Paladin could nova and take someone out to use this feature with, who'd be the best target? If you take the wizard out, he may not have many spells to help you with, but he also won't be using them against you, and cleric can't "raise dead" because he's not dead (in Citan's example wizard, stuff like Haste and Polymorph would be good, or Wall of Force). he could also just use the Help action on your attacks. What do you guys think? Bard, Cleric, or Wizard?

Channel Divinity (Rebuke the Violent) - In case someone tries to take out your reconciled buddy?

Aura of the Guardian - This may be a wasted ability. If the reconciled PC can count as an ally, then you could keep them standing if the other PCs target them. But it depends on if they count as an ally (not sure what the rules say on this), if the PCs target the reconciled PC, and if he is worth keeping conscious.

Protective Spirit - Regain ~23hp if you're bloodied, up to your bloodied level. Useful with Emissary of Redemptions DR.

Emissary of Redemption - This I think is a biggie. No activation required. You take half damage dealt by any creature you haven't attacked, dealt damage to, or forced to make a save. This allows you to focus on one PC at a time. Further, anyone dealing you damage takes half damage again, softening them up for when you do finally target them.

In the case of Ruslan's second example, the Redeemer would be at 97hp at the end of that round 1 focus fire. And everyone would have taken some damage. Spells of note would be Shield and Wall of Force (though the 5th level slots might be used for Smiting, then again a Wall of Force could make a difference worth 1d8).

[Ruslan]

Very nice catch about using Stroke of Luck to ensure you have the highest Initiative whatever happens.

Meteor Swarm though? I guess you are talking about casting it from a spell scroll, but I wonder what chances would be in a classic D&d settings to find such one... :)

Also, you would certainly drop Wizard (only chance for him to survive would be to succeed on Dex save AND have Absorb Elements ready), Bard (unless specific Valor Bard with Shield Master feat, but that's very far-stretched) and Cleric (unless Nature Cleric with very high luck on save or any Cleric built as tank with Shield Master feat, both being unlikely).

Rogue? enter Evasion: high chance to get his save, he will laugh away as he slaloms between the falling rocks.
Fighter? If build S&B, he will certainly survive: Indomitable gives a pretty good chance to get the save, and Shield Master should be an obvious choice on a class with that many ASI.

Still, by that point, you probably won indeed, having made it a 2-1 worst case unless totally improbable niche situations ^^. Especially since you get another turn with "Initiative-10" which should not be a big requirement. :)

Wizard (and Bard, if 5-man party) are both likely to have Counterspell, so I would not count on any single silver bullet spell to win. Also, Stroke of Luck does not work this way.

If you fail an ability check, you can treat the d20 roll as a 20.Since you can't 'fail' an Initiative check, SoL does not apply.

[Jamesps]

Very nice catch about using Stroke of Luck to ensure you have the highest Initiative whatever happens.

Meteor Swarm though? I guess you are talking about casting it from a spell scroll, but I wonder what chances would be in a classic D&d settings to find such one... :)



I was going by the original post that these were characters metagamed to beat each other (though presumably without knowing each other's stats) and I was assuming that people got to pick their magic items according to high level starting conditions in the DMG.

Apparently the initiative thing doesn't work, but you can jury-rig an effective initiative of infinity by using stroke of luck on a failed stealth roll to get a surprise round. That'll have a good chance of nixing absorb elements since it can't be cast by a surprised character. Also the nature cleric 6th level ability. Even then, once they use all their reactions you can finish them off those without evasion with a cone of cold scroll. I guess if they have a rogue or monk you might actually have to get your hands dirty. Life is tough sometimes.

[Farecry]

Seems like a sword of wounding, which should be pretty easy for a level 20 to obtain, would swing this fight in his favor. And in a standard magic campaign, he would still have 2 uncommons if assuming fresh creation rules. That's 3 magic items up on your level 9's who by the same rule only have starting equipment. I think this should be pretty one sided in the lvl 20's favor.

[Citan]

Wizard (and Bard, if 5-man party) are both likely to have Counterspell, so I would not count on any single silver bullet spell to win. Also, Stroke of Luck does not work this way.
Since you can't 'fail' an Initiative check, SoL does not apply.
Arf, you are perfectly right on both counts.
I guess that's why it hadn't been already suggested earlier.


Apparently the initiative thing doesn't work, but you can jury-rig an effective initiative of infinity by using stroke of luck on a failed stealth roll to get a surprise round.
My god. That is... Genius! Also... Extremely nasty.
I would love to hire you as a supervillain in my game, but I'm afraid my players would actually be no match for this level of guile...
XD

[Ruslan]

Apparently the initiative thing doesn't work, but you can jury-rig an effective initiative of infinity by using stroke of luck on a failed stealth roll to get a surprise round. That'll have a good chance of nixing absorb elements since it can't be cast by a surprised character. Also the nature cleric 6th level ability. Even then, once they use all their reactions you can finish them off those without evasion with a cone of cold scroll. I guess if they have a rogue or monk you might actually have to get your hands dirty. Life is tough sometimes.
That would work. Also, Counterspell can't be cast by a surprised character. So, yeah, if we're allowing tailored-to-request magic items, a 20 on a Stealth check plus Meteor Swarm does seem to be a winner.

[Vogonjeltz]

I already stood corrected in terms of Barbarian. As for the others, of course they do, but then again I was talking about STR melees, and full-plate fighters hardly ever have a Dexterity higher than 10.

You can have Alert/Lucky and still have 20 INT. Just be a human. What's wrong with that?

And now I stand corrected on the number of attacks needed to kill someone unconscious. But then again, the main question should be 'why is wizard is a melee position', instead of just hanging back.

Ah, build complaints. Of course they would. Well, why don't you build your own Oathbreaker (or any Paladin, for that matter) so we can judge it? Because I think that three attacks that add so much at-will damage, along with the tankiness of this build, speak for themselves.

EDIT: Let's not forget, Bard hasn't even been added to these simulations yet!

When you post in direct response to me, expect to have your post read and responded to regardless of what someone else might say or do. I could ignore you instead if you like, but that wouldn't really be in the spirit of communication.

As for full-plate fighters, there's no rational basis for placing the 8 in Dexterity instead of Intelligence. None. Int saves are so rare they might as well not exist. Conversely you're looking at a Dexterity ability check every single combat of the game (6-8 per day!). Having a deficiency there, with an 8 is a trade off between hundreds of rolls, and possibly one.

Ah yes, Variant Human does net a free feat. Their Dex could be no more than 15 though, which puts their max AC (with mage armor) at 15. Any level 20 almost certainly has +11 to hit before magic items are taken into account (which brings that up to anywhere from +12 to +14) or even advantage.

Wizard can't hang back, the fight takes place in the throne room, there's no where to hang back in. Granted the actual topography of the location was pretty much un-mapped. Then again, if this character took over the kingdom...where are their guards?

AS to the build, I'd either change it from Oathbreaker to Oath of the Ancients, that gives them resistance on all spell damage (neuters the casters contributions) or Devotion for Sanctuary (makes them nigh untargetable by these mooks). Swap Dex and Int at the least.

Tankiness of the Oathbreaker would be fine if Ruslan hadn't meta-gamed for the party specifically to avoid it. Cleric has one concentration spell they can throw up, and they devote it to Magic Weapon? Right, because that's ever been the choice concentration spell for a Cleric...which it now occurs to me that Clerics, nature clerics in particular, don't even have the spell. So the fight wasn't even rules legal to begin with.


Wow. You really take this personally, it's very fun (although also a bit sad) to read.

Just because people give plenty of reasons why the chance to kill a Wizard on the first round should not a reason enough to come that close to anger. XD

I was not suggesting that any and all spells were cast, just that any combination of them was significantly reducing the chance of Fighter to kill a Wizard.

Just a Warding Bond precast by Cleric + Wizard's own Shield makes the kill go from "pretty good chance" to "risky gamble", especially with a Fire Shield stacked on it.

About that, sorry, I don't care about OP rules: in practice, if a Wizard has it prepped (meaning he has the habit of using it OR he prepped it just for today), he will certainly cast it when entering the castle or closing in to throne room if he knows he is gonna face a powerful melee opponent. Which should be the case per the OP description: so I understand why 1mn buff would not be allowed precast, but 10mn... ;)
And anyways, the point isn't to reduce damage taken: it is to make some retaliation: the effect activates EACH TIME you suffer a hit (even if you are unconscious, since it's a non-concentration spell): so even if the Fighter kills you, he will have suffered between 5 and 8 times 2d8 damage. Even on a lvl 20 Fighter, with easily above >150 HP, that's still a significant chunk of life lost, with a minimum average of 45 HP.
At that point, even if Wizard dies indeed, the remaining party has a much better chance of downing his enemy before his next turn comes.

Aid wasn't supposed to be cast as a 2nd level spell either. If you are gonna use it, at least use it to the max. Cast as a lvl 4 spell, it gives 15 HP. Not necessarily the best use of spell slot (I myself don't use it often ;)), but still, it's a pretty good HP increase for the Wizard (and two others). :)

As for Protection, I don't see why the Fighter should be any further than the "frail guys" if, as you always suppose, the BBEG won Initiative. After all, the group should generally enter in the throne room in a tight, tactical formation. There are not suicidal, supposedly.

Just FIY, Valor Bard gets medium armor on a d8, so I don't see how it could be more frail than a Wizard when you don't use resources such as Shield.

Then again, I did not try and pretend being exhaustive in all potential class features or spells that could get in the way of your Fighter (not even accounting for the fact that each party member could Ready an action to do something just as they open the door of the throne room).

Just have the guts to admit that your tactic is very far from a sure-kill in most circumstances (although your chance are indeed reasonably good as long as you win initiative against most guys), and totally irrealistic provided some prerequisites per opposing party composition (any among Bladesinger/Diviner Wizard, Lore Bard, Swashbuckler Rogue, Battlemaster Fighter, Light/Tempest/War) or feats (Alert/Lucky) and let it go. XD

You're projecting, it's just a list of reasons that was a sham.

Fire Shield only deals 2d8 damage, which is pretty worthwhile to eliminate the Wizard outright.

I agree, Ruslan's arbitrary rules were bad (not the OP, btw) and plainly biased. That being said, if we wanted to normalize this scenario for actual play, the BBEG would have a retinue for certain, there'd be no chance of surprise by the party (on the other hand, those in the throne room who hear the commotion of the party trying to fight their way through the castle guards would have been heard well in advance, so there's plenty of chance for an ambush against the party), and any level 20 character would have, at a minimum, the number of magic items listed in the DMG, more if they were created organically through actual adventures.

If Aid is cast at a higher level, that prevents the use of other spells which already are a higher level (i.e. one less Death Ward). Is that really worth 15 HP?

Formation prior to combat is dependent on the space available, and when initiative actually gets rolled, of course. If the party has to fight its way in (or their strange presence is obviously hostile as uninvited intruders) then combat would begin as the door(s) open meaning only one-two characters can even see what's going on. If the usurper is alone...why would they even take a risk and stay instead of exiting the throneroom through the back/side door? If they have a retinue, then presumably the party would get tied up with guards in the entryway. In any case, even if the Fighter were directly next to the Wizard (unlikely unless the Wizard is near the front) they can only give disadvantage to one attack anyway. Kind of meaningless when only 3 roll outcomes actually miss. Only one if the usurper has proper equipment.

FWIW, the Bard mentioned was a Lore Bard, but yes, a Valor Bard would have medium armor capacity. So they could have a 17 AC instead of ...17 AC assuming they maximized dexterity. The listed bard didn't of course (his AC would only be 15, so slight improvement there). And their HP without using rolling would be 9 points higher, only marginally better than the Wizard's HP.

Characters can not ready actions out of combat, so no, the party can't ready any actions before initiative gets rolled.

It's theoretically possible that the Wizard does not die if they run away before combat begins, sure. Probably they get hunted down anyway once the villain extracts a confession from whoever the last man standing is that (unfortunately for them) survives the combat to be taken prisoner, but they could run for a long time I'm sure.


I think the Redeemer Paladin would fare well, but I'm not as familiar with 5E's workings as most of you so I'd like to hear what you think.

Warrior of Reconciliation - Basically, you're trying to get someone on your side. While the cleric might be best, in that he can heal you (since his actions are limited by this feature), the wizard seems the most dangerous to get out of the way. Assuming the Paladin could nova and take someone out to use this feature with, who'd be the best target? If you take the wizard out, he may not have many spells to help you with, but he also won't be using them against you, and cleric can't "raise dead" because he's not dead (in Citan's example wizard, stuff like Haste and Polymorph would be good, or Wall of Force). he could also just use the Help action on your attacks. What do you guys think? Bard, Cleric, or Wizard?

Channel Divinity (Rebuke the Violent) - In case someone tries to take out your reconciled buddy?

Aura of the Guardian - This may be a wasted ability. If the reconciled PC can count as an ally, then you could keep them standing if the other PCs target them. But it depends on if they count as an ally (not sure what the rules say on this), if the PCs target the reconciled PC, and if he is worth keeping conscious.

Protective Spirit - Regain ~23hp if you're bloodied, up to your bloodied level. Useful with Emissary of Redemptions DR.

Emissary of Redemption - This I think is a biggie. No activation required. You take half damage dealt by any creature you haven't attacked, dealt damage to, or forced to make a save. This allows you to focus on one PC at a time. Further, anyone dealing you damage takes half damage again, softening them up for when you do finally target them.

In the case of Ruslan's second example, the Redeemer would be at 97hp at the end of that round 1 focus fire. And everyone would have taken some damage. Spells of note would be Shield and Wall of Force (though the 5th level slots might be used for Smiting, then again a Wall of Force could make a difference worth 1d8).

Given shield the Redeemer probably would have been missed by the Rogue and the Fighter entirely, further reducing damage down to just the spells, which was practically nothing.

For this character there would be no point to GWM, so instead take Tough for 40 additional HP (raising the level at which Protective Spirit kicks in), and maximize Constitution, raising it still further. 270 hp seems fairly pretty insurmountable by these enemies before they KO themselves. All that being said, the original restriction was to just PHB class options, I thought.

[Specter]

As for full-plate fighters, there's no rational basis for placing the 8 in Dexterity instead of Intelligence. None. Int saves are so rare they might as well not exist. Conversely you're looking at a Dexterity ability check every single combat of the game (6-8 per day!). Having a deficiency there, with an 8 is a trade off between hundreds of rolls, and possibly one.

Ah yes, Variant Human does net a free feat. Their Dex could be no more than 15 though, which puts their max AC (with mage armor) at 15. Any level 20 almost certainly has +11 to hit before magic items are taken into account (which brings that up to anywhere from +12 to +14) or even advantage.

Wizard can't hang back, the fight takes place in the throne room, there's no where to hang back in. Granted the actual topography of the location was pretty much un-mapped. Then again, if this character took over the kingdom...where are their guards?

AS to the build, I'd either change it from Oathbreaker to Oath of the Ancients, that gives them resistance on all spell damage (neuters the casters contributions) or Devotion for Sanctuary (makes them nigh untargetable by these mooks). Swap Dex and Int at the least.

Fine. The point is, any level-1 Wizard can have 14 on DEX, so they get a +2 to initiative.

Make that 3 roll an 8, Wizard would be casting Shield. So it's a 40% miss chance at every attack. Not even considering something like Blur or Greater Invisibility, which I d

And 'hanging back' is not standing far away, it's at least standing 3 squares behind a tank, so they take an opportunity attack if they try to reach you. That's pretty much standard party formation, squishies in the back or in the middle. And a wise opponent wouldn't be willing to get an opportunity attack if they can be tripped by it, or worse, taking a 5d6 sneak attack by it.

So bottomline, to drop the Wizard you would need decent rolls, taking damage on the way and being willing to do nothing.

[CursedRhubarb]

If the martial is wearing metal armor, it's chance of survival would drop pretty good. A normal party tends to have at least one person with access to Heat Metal and another with Hold Person. If the group happens to have a cleric, druid, and bard, then the martial is likely to face three 5th lvl heat metals for 5d8 each. Even in just one round, that'd hurt and then burns for it again each round plus other attacks. The martial would have to focus on one per turn and try to get a killer per round to win.

If they don't have metal armor, or with multiple members having HM, the martial would still get disarmed or take damage via HM and once disarmed, even a lvl 20 character is only doing 1+Str non-magic bludgeoning damage per hit, which even a wizard can survive. (Plus they'd loose the bonuses to hit from the weapon if disarmed or swing at disadvantage if they hold on.)

I would say the martial would have a rough time coming out on top. They could do it, but odds are not in their favor.

[Bohandas]

Not 5e but Temple of Elemental Evil has an optional fight wih a balor around party level 9-10, and it's doable, but very very difficult; I imagine this would fall into the same category

[Dr.Samurai]

Given shield the Redeemer probably would have been missed by the Rogue and the Fighter entirely, further reducing damage down to just the spells, which was practically nothing.

For this character there would be no point to GWM, so instead take Tough for 40 additional HP (raising the level at which Protective Spirit kicks in), and maximize Constitution, raising it still further. 270 hp seems fairly pretty insurmountable by these enemies before they KO themselves. All that being said, the original restriction was to just PHB class options, I thought.
PHB only for the purposes of Ruslan's demonstration I believe. But I'm happy to consider UA stuff myself. I don't particularly agree with all of his decisions anyways, and this is just theory.


If the martial is wearing metal armor, it's chance of survival would drop pretty good. A normal party tends to have at least one person with access to Heat Metal and another with Hold Person. If the group happens to have a cleric, druid, and bard, then the martial is likely to face three 5th lvl heat metals for 5d8 each. Even in just one round, that'd hurt and then burns for it again each round plus other attacks. The martial would have to focus on one per turn and try to get a killer per round to win.

If they don't have metal armor, or with multiple members having HM, the martial would still get disarmed or take damage via HM and once disarmed, even a lvl 20 character is only doing 1+Str non-magic bludgeoning damage per hit, which even a wizard can survive. (Plus they'd loose the bonuses to hit from the weapon if disarmed or swing at disadvantage if they hold on.)

I would say the martial would have a rough time coming out on top. They could do it, but odds are not in their favor.
A redeemer paladin doesn't need metal armor and wields... a quarterstaff? To make use of Warrior of Reconciliation as well as Polearm Master? So I don't think Heat Metal would phase him much.

[Citan]

If the martial is wearing metal armor, it's chance of survival would drop pretty good. A normal party tends to have at least one person with access to Heat Metal and another with Hold Person. If the group happens to have a cleric, druid, and bard, then the martial is likely to face three 5th lvl heat metals for 5d8 each. Even in just one round, that'd hurt and then burns for it again each round plus other attacks. The martial would have to focus on one per turn and try to get a killer per round to win.

I'm really not sure if what you say is RAW.
There has been a ruling quite old now (or maybe it's even in PHB) saying that effects of the same spell don't stack.

While it was probably aiming to stop the "buff stack" of previous editions, I don't see why it shouldn't apply as easily on debuffs.

Otherwise, you know, the best party would probably be a bunch of Wild/Shadow Sorcerer 8 + Lore Bard 6 + Tome Warlock 4 + Fighter 2 (with maybe an Ancients Paladin casting Circle of Power to be on the safe side against biggest/most resilient enemies XD). Drop an upcast Heightened Bestow Curse to apply a non-concentration "disadvantage on Wisdom saves", each Sorcerer taking care of his own target, then all Sorcerers just stack on Slow until targets have like 10 AC / -8 to DEX saves and absolutely no chance to drop all the stacked effects until at least 3rd turn.
Then Sorcerers would just have to stack Agonizing Blast or DEX AOE spells (Action Surge + Quickened = 12 Agonizing Blast with pretty good chance to hit).

This would be as stupid as the ruling made first about features like Aura of Protection which allowed stacking, making a 4-man multiclass Paladin group pretty unbeatable by any mean with at least a +12 to all saves in tight formation (although my munchkinist side is a bit frustrated they went back on that, it was really the only sane ruling to say they don't stack. Otherwise Paladin would be the dominating cast in any setting).

[Vogonjeltz]

Fine. The point is, any level-1 Wizard can have 14 on DEX, so they get a +2 to initiative.

Make that 3 roll an 8, Wizard would be casting Shield. So it's a 40% miss chance at every attack. Not even considering something like Blur or Greater Invisibility, which I d

And 'hanging back' is not standing far away, it's at least standing 3 squares behind a tank, so they take an opportunity attack if they try to reach you. That's pretty much standard party formation, squishies in the back or in the middle. And a wise opponent wouldn't be willing to get an opportunity attack if they can be tripped by it, or worse, taking a 5d6 sneak attack by it.

So bottomline, to drop the Wizard you would need decent rolls, taking damage on the way and being willing to do nothing.

Blur requires concentration, and of course was not compliant with the ground rules provided (as much as I disagree with those ground rules) being less than an hour duration. Greater Invisibility suffers from the same issues. Further, neither buff prevents (or in any way hinders) trading a single attack for shoving the Wizard to the ground, providing advantage to counteract either buff.

Nothing seems to stop the Usurper from just walking around the Fighter without entering a threatened square. Unfortunately, crawford has clarified that Opportunity attacks are single melee attacks only and can not be interchanged for a contest....which I totally disagree with, but there you have it. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/632227669938012160


PHB only for the purposes of Ruslan's demonstration I believe. But I'm happy to consider UA stuff myself. I don't particularly agree with all of his decisions anyways, and this is just theory.

Ah, well as long as we're not adhering to that, then I agree it looks good.

[Specter]

Blur requires concentration, and of course was not compliant with the ground rules provided (as much as I disagree with those ground rules) being less than an hour duration. Greater Invisibility suffers from the same issues. Further, neither buff prevents (or in any way hinders) trading a single attack for shoving the Wizard to the ground, providing advantage to counteract either buff.

Nothing seems to stop the Usurper from just walking around the Fighter without entering a threatened square. Unfortunately, crawford has clarified that Opportunity attacks are single melee attacks only and can not be interchanged for a contest....which I totally disagree with, but there you have it. https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/632227669938012160.

I wasn't implying the Wizard precast it, that would be cheap. But when a behemoth is trying to close in on you, Blur/Mirror Image/Misry Step start to seem very appealing. If the bad guy wants to spend an attack on a trip, even better for the wizard, I guess.

To walk around the fighter winning initiative, you'd need to start the fight 15 feet from him (30 feet from the wizard in this case, counting diagonals as 5).

The trip I mentioned was from the maneuver, Trip Attack.

But anyway, this has dragged on. I guess we're all convinced that circumstance is of the essence.

[Douche]

I saw someone that was willing to simulate the battle. What happened to that? Did they make a topic on the PBP board or something?

[Dr.Samurai]

Ah, well as long as we're not adhering to that, then I agree it looks good.
What would be a good stat spread using Point Buy? Maybe I'll check out the handbook and build one. What would a Redeemer prioritize?

I saw someone that was willing to simulate the battle. What happened to that? Did they make a topic on the PBP board or something?
Ruslan did it in this thread. One where the BBEG won Initiative, and one where the group curb-stomped the BBEG.

EDIT: Here you go Douche.

BBEG wins Initiative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21870360&postcount=109)

Party wins Initiative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21881482&postcount=142)