Help Channeling Spells Trough Punches?!

[jorgelrr]

First post ever on this forum. The thing is, i am making a new character for a new campaign starting at level 3. The idea is that im a sage that believes that kicks and magic will reduce my foes to ashes. I wanted to be capacle of channeling my spells(arcane or divine, i don't care wich) into my unnarmed or natural attacks(for instance, i was planning on creating a human with the Feral template from savage species) the same way a Ordained champion, a Havoc Mage or a Spellsword would do with their weapons, but to my unnarmed strike. And it would be nice to capable of casting it like in the middle of a flurry of blows(Totally not aware if even possible :smalleek:). Anyway, thats the idea i wanted.

Ps.: I considered Arcane Strike, but i dont want to sacrifice spells to increase damage, i want to kick somebody's stomach and combust the shape of my feet in his shirt.

Ps2.:It's not optimized, actually half the ppl on the table had never played before. so im making a character for the flavor, not caring much about optimization. the DM is addicted to min/maxing though, and everything is allowed except for Dragon Magazine.

[Technetium43]

Enlightened Fist, Complete Arcane. Doesn't come on until later, though. Duskblade could do it too, with Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike, I suppose, though it definitely wouldn't be optimal. Pretty much your only option for level 3.

[Ruethgar]

Improved Unarmed Strike already does this for touch spells, though IIRC it also removes the touch AC aspect. Desert Wind maneuvers can certainly be used Unarmed and are spell-ish. I mean you are shooting fire from your fists. There is also the Fiery Fist feat fire fire punches. Produce Flame and its modified versions are easy to get with one of a few different feats. Then there is always the Ward Cestus and use weapon channeling means.

[jorgelrr]

Enlightened Fist, Complete Arcane. Doesn't come on until later, though. Duskblade could do it too, with Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike, I suppose, though it definitely wouldn't be optimal. Pretty much your only option for level 3.

Doesn't duskblade specific requires that i use a weapon to deliver the spell? I thought about him because of his 13th level ability, but figured it wouldn't be possible. Enlightened Fist seems promissing, though it would take me forever just sitting and waiting for level up =/. Any ideas on how to maintain the character ideology until i reach the lv 7 of the Pcr? Thank you BTW.


Improved Unarmed Strike already does this for touch spells, though IIRC it also removes the touch AC aspect. Desert Wind maneuvers can certainly be used Unarmed and are spell-ish. I mean you are shooting fire from your fists. There is also the Fiery Fist feat fire fire punches. Produce Flame and its modified versions are easy to get with one of a few different feats. Then there is always the Ward Cestus and use weapon channeling means.

Maybe using combust as an example was a bad ideia =/. I didnt exactly plan on use just fire. Or just damage spells. Ray of enfeeblement for example came to my mind. I like combust for a series of reasons. Slow. Call of stone. Are all spells it would be nice to see channeled trough a kick(visually speaking). Ward cestus and weapom channeling are nice ideas though. I'll take a look at the desert wind maneauvers, Thank You =D.

[Dagroth]

Duskblade can use Fists if you dip a level or two of Monk, because a Monk treats his Unarmed Strike as a manufactured weapon. Get the Incardine (sp?) Monk feat to make your Monk Abilities trigger off Int instead of Wis.

Then, because you only need Caster Level 3rd and that's when Duskblade gets Arcane Channelling, you can jump in to Enlightened Fist.

The other option is to go WarMage -> Monk (Get Ascetic Mage once you can cast 2nd level spells) -> Enlightened Fist.

You can always go Swordsage instead of Monk, though you'll need to get the Improved Unarmed Strike & Stunning Fist feats yourself. You'll still be able to get the Ascetic Mage or Incardine Monk feats if your DM agrees (should be okay) and be able to wear light armor too!

Edit: P.S. Don't fall for Sacred Fist... it's almost as much of a trap as Vow of Poverty.

[Technetium43]

Edit: P.S. Don't fall for Sacred Fist... it's almost as much of a trap as Vow of Poverty.

Okay I'm not gonna touch the rest of this post but... what????? Sacred Fist is just fine. Full BAB, Full Casting, decent class features, the only real problem is the prereqs which aren't even too bad by the standards of most PrCs. In what way is it a trap?

[Dagroth]

Okay I'm not gonna touch the rest of this post but... what????? Sacred Fist is just fine. Full BAB, Full Casting, decent class features, the only real problem is the prereqs which aren't even too bad by the standards of most PrCs. In what way is it a trap?

If you ever wield a weapon or wear armor for any reason, you fall harder than a Paladin who killed babies.

[Technetium43]

If you ever wield a weapon or wear armor for any reason, you fall harder than a Paladin who killed babies.

Cool? You don't need any of that stuff anyways? And it's not like they can be 'tricked' into it, it specifically says 'knowingly' wielding a weapon. Also you're wrong, it's just weapons, and not armor. And if you're a sacred fist you don't need weapons at all.

[Venger]

Duskblade can use Fists if you dip a level or two of Monk, because a Monk treats his Unarmed Strike as a manufactured weapon. Get the Incardine (sp?) Monk feat to make your Monk Abilities trigger off Int instead of Wis.

Then, because you only need Caster Level 3rd and that's when Duskblade gets Arcane Channelling, you can jump in to Enlightened Fist.

The other option is to go WarMage -> Monk (Get Ascetic Mage once you can cast 2nd level spells) -> Enlightened Fist.

You can always go Swordsage instead of Monk, though you'll need to get the Improved Unarmed Strike & Stunning Fist feats yourself. You'll still be able to get the Ascetic Mage or Incardine Monk feats if your DM agrees (should be okay) and be able to wear light armor too!

Edit: P.S. Don't fall for Sacred Fist... it's almost as much of a trap as Vow of Poverty.

It's carmendine monk.

Absolutely go sacred fist, what are you talking about? even if you don't go sacrilegious fist, it's an awesome class. you do lose powers if you use a weapon (not armor,) but why would you want to do that? you're a full caster.

[Ruethgar]

A Silverbrow Human Major Silver Bloodline 3/Monk 1 with a Primary Contact can enter Enlightened Fist at ECL 2 and immediately retrain away Favored and then Primary Contact at third. Still a bit of delay for rays though.

Clawlocks are a good way to mix magic and punching even if only for damage, but I thought I may as well mention it as an option.

[Rebel7284]

My favorite way of doing this concert is:
Duskblade 3/Monk 2/Ur Priest 2 finish with Sacred Fist if ruled to use text over table. (Text over table is the official way to resolve these types of conflicts)

At level three, just channel through a gauntlet or something and switch to fists next level.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Can't Ordained Champion do this?

Nevermind. Just read the op.

[Venger]

A Silverbrow Human Major Silver Bloodline 3/Monk 1 with a Primary Contact can enter Enlightened Fist at ECL 2 and immediately retrain away Favored and then Primary Contact at third. Still a bit of delay for rays though.

Clawlocks are a good way to mix magic and punching even if only for damage, but I thought I may as well mention it as an option.

RAW, retraining can't let you do things that'd make your build at the time illegal, but ask your GM. balance-wise, there's nothing wrong with this use of it.

[Matrota]

Spellsword specifically states that you can channel spells into your melee weapon, and it never says that your weapon has to be a sword. Gauntlets and brass knuckles count as melee weapons, and if your DM was willing, you could consider fists melee weapons so long as you have improved unarmed strike.

[Dagroth]

My favorite way of doing this concert is:
Duskblade 3/Monk 2/Ur Priest 2 finish with Sacred Fist if ruled to use text over table. (Text over table is the official way to resolve these types of conflicts)

At level three, just channel through a gauntlet or something and switch to fists next level.


Spellsword specifically states that you can channel spells into your melee weapon, and it never says that your weapon has to be a sword. Gauntlets and brass knuckles count as melee weapons, and if your DM was willing, you could consider fists melee weapons so long as you have improved unarmed strike.

In the Monk Class description, it clearly states that a Monk treats their Unarmed Strike as a Manufactured Weapon. Thus, it qualifies for all forms of "channeling".

[PaucaTerrorem]

Or just ask your DM to refluff a class feature. Kinda silly that the channeling can go down the arm, past the fist, and into a weapon without making a pit stop at the fist.

[Ruethgar]

RAW, retraining can't let you do things that'd make your build at the time illegal, but ask your GM. balance-wise, there's nothing wrong with this use of it.

Once you hit ECL you have the 8 ranks you need and don't need Primary Contact anymore. Of course you might have to wait til 3&4 to retrain since it takes effect before the level is applied. You could also play one of the Awakened Animals with an ECL of 0 to get those few extra ranks and a book thrown at you for free.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can have a lot of fun with a Duskblade 3 / monk 2 / enlightened fist 10.

It's... well... really unoptimized, but it's a fun way to punch people in the face with kelgore's fireball and shocking grasp.

[jorgelrr]

Thank you all for your help, i just have a few more questions. i came to realise there are 2 possible builds that fit what i want. The Enlightened Fist route or the Sacrilegious Fist route. lets make my question on topics here.

The Enlightened Fist Route

This build seems kind of solid, but i see a couple of problems, duskblade spell list aint exactly the best list, should I make a dip in wizard and progress with the build, or any other class with a large spell list? And progress it. And as Stated before, i can cast a touch spell with an unnarmed strike, if i use total AC, so is duskblade really adding anything here?
Any spellcasters with lots of Ray and Touch spells?


Sacrilegious Fist Route

Talking about this build, something came to my mind, at first i Thought Doing this as a arcane caster would be better, But the Ur-Priest States that you have access to all the spells on the cleric spell list, does it means i can get Divine power and DMM Persist it? would be a nice way to make this character hit a little more.
The second doubt i have here is, what is duskblade really doing here? it seemed so nice to me before i learned i could already use his 3 level ability... can he use channel ranged touch attacks too? i dont see him adding up anything in the build :smallconfused:



Aside from those two ideas, clawlocks are from DM## i cant use them :smallfrown:

[Venger]

Thank you all for your help, i just have a few more questions. i came to realise there are 2 possible builds that fit what i want. The Enlightened Fist route or the Sacrilegious Fist route. lets make my question on topics here.

The Enlightened Fist Route

This build seems kind of solid, but i see a couple of problems, duskblade spell list aint exactly the best list, should I make a dip in wizard and progress with the build, or any other class with a large spell list? And progress it. And as Stated before, i can cast a touch spell with an unnarmed strike, if i use total AC, so is duskblade really adding anything here?
Any spellcasters with lots of Ray and Touch spells?


Sacrilegious Fist Route

Talking about this build, something came to my mind, at first i Thought Doing this as a arcane caster would be better, But the Ur-Priest States that you have access to all the spells on the cleric spell list, does it means i can get Divine power and DMM Persist it? would be a nice way to make this character hit a little more.
The second doubt i have here is, what is duskblade really doing here? it seemed so nice to me before i learned i could already use his 3 level ability... can he use channel ranged touch attacks too? i dont see him adding up anything in the build :smallconfused:



Aside from those two ideas, clawlocks are from DM## i cant use them :smallfrown:


dipping further in an enlightened fist build will not help you.

as for sacrilegious fist, savage bard is the most popular method of entry for ur-priest. yes, you can dmm divine power via ur-priest. duskblade boosts your ba, provides methods to channel attacks and pays some of the taxes for sacred fist, which is a pain in the ass to qualify for.

[Rebel7284]

Thank you all for your help, i just have a few more questions. i came to realise there are 2 possible builds that fit what i want. The Enlightened Fist route or the Sacrilegious Fist route. lets make my question on topics here.

The Enlightened Fist Route
[LIST]
This build seems kind of solid, but i see a couple of problems, duskblade spell list aint exactly the best list, should I make a dip in wizard and progress with the build, or any other class with a large spell list? And progress it. And as Stated before, i can cast a touch spell with an unnarmed strike, if i use total AC, so is duskblade really adding anything here?
Any spellcasters with lots of Ray and Touch spells?



With the amount of lost caster levels, if you want to be channeling level-appropriate spells, you should be going Monk 1/Wizard 4/ but that makes you wait until level 7 to start channeling spells. If you take this class at all, I suggest doing this.
Taking Duskblade and then switching to wizard will pay off eventually, but with those five(!) lost caster levels (Duskblade 3/Monk 1/Wizard 1 entry), you are SO far behind for so much of the game that it hurts.
The lack of good fast-progression arcane classes in the game limits you somewhat here. Sublime Chord can't be entered until way too late and Knight of the Weave stops at 6th level spells.



Sacrilegious Fist Route

Talking about this build, something came to my mind, at first i Thought Doing this as a arcane caster would be better, But the Ur-Priest States that you have access to all the spells on the cleric spell list, does it means i can get Divine power and DMM Persist it? would be a nice way to make this character hit a little more.
The second doubt i have here is, what is duskblade really doing here? it seemed so nice to me before i learned i could already use his 3 level ability... can he use channel ranged touch attacks too? i dont see him adding up anything in the build :smallconfused:



Yes, Ur Priests rock DMM pretty hard.
I mean, you can punch people in the guts with Inflict spells and eventually with Harm, that's pretty nice, doubling up on damage like that. I am not an expert on cleric touch attack spells, but I am sure there are a number of other useful ones.

Edit: A quick scan of my memory and the SRD tells me that Shivering Touch, Contagion, Poison, and Plane Shift can also be nice to punch people with. For bonus points, make your melee attacks into touch attacks, so you get the bonus damage without the extra cost. Perhaps Eternal Wand of Wraithstrike?

Edit2: Actually, the best way to get melee touch attacks as an Ur-Priest is probably a persisted Ice Axe [SpC]. Although that does kinda negate the Unarmed Strike portion of the exercise.