Open hand technique twice in turn?

[Haydensan]

I'm in the middle of building my first monk and I'm looking ahead at the options for archetypes. Open hand definitely looks to be my favourite but I've got a little question about the rules.

It states that whenever you hit a creature with *one* of your attacks with flurry of blows you can select one of the effects. Since flurry of blows is two attacks could I double up and choose one effect for each hit?

For example take the same effect twice (like the pushing one), or even two different effects?

[War_lord]

No, you apply the effect to "one" of your attacks.

[Haydensan]

I see your point, starting to think it comes down to where the reader puts the emphasis in the wording.


Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:

[Arkhios]

No, you apply the effect to "one" of your attacks.

To be honest, I believe you can, actually, use Open Hand Technique more than once per turn. As long as the hit comes from one of the flurry of blows attacks, but only once per hit, so you can't combine one hit with multiple effects. Multiple hits with different effects, sure why not?

[Citan]

I'm in the middle of building my first monk and I'm looking ahead at the options for archetypes. Open hand definitely looks to be my favourite but I've got a little question about the rules.

It states that whenever you hit a creature with *one* of your attacks with flurry of blows you can select one of the effects. Since flurry of blows is two attacks could I double up and choose one effect for each hit?

For example take the same effect twice (like the pushing one), or even two different effects?
Yeah, you can.
I don't understand people who would believe you are restricted to once per turn.
If that had been the case, they would have worded in the same way as for Ranger's Hunter abilities for example ("once per turn when you hit with one of the attacks granted"...)

Here, it's "whenever": so obviously if you hit both times, you can apply two effects. :)

Beyond that, it has to be logical: for example, if you hit the same target with first attack of FoB and choose the push effect, which succeeds, you will need to move yourself to chain the second. :)
However, as strange as it may seem, by RAW you could hit a creature, put it prone (if failed save), then hit again (with advantage, yeah) and use the push effect.
I say it's "strange" because I have problems to see how you can push away when hitting a prone enemy, but after all, you could just say you kicked instead of punching. Monk masters his whole body after all. ;)

[Arkhios]

but after all, you could just say you kicked instead of punching. Monk masters his whole body after all. ;)

Not only monk, to be honest. Unarmed Strike has that capability for everyone using an unarmed strike. A Monk is just better at it. :)

[Dappershire]

That's a difficult decision.

But I have to think it's only once per bonus action. If it was meant to give an effect for each hit from the FoB, then wouldn't the wording have been more like "Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target."

Though I assume, if Monk's are allowed to move between FoB attacks (are they? I don't really know 5e), or simply switch targets, theoretically, even the wording as I take it, would allow him to attach an effect to both targets he hits.

[War_lord]

It's not restricted to once per turn. It's once per flurry. You can do two flurrys per turn. But you cannot, for example go "attack, bonus attack (knock prone), bonus attack (shove)".

[MrStabby]

I would say yes.

When the monk makes a successful unarmed attack against someone check if that hit is from a flurry of blows attack. If so apply the bonus, else don't.

[Arkhios]

It's not restricted to once per turn. It's once per flurry. You can do two flurrys per turn. But you cannot, for example go "attack, bonus attack (knock prone), bonus attack (shove)".

No, it's not once per flurry. It's whenever you hit with one of your attacks granted by flurry of blows (not one of your regular attacks granted by Attack action). There's two attacks in a flurry and if either of them hits, you get to apply the rider effect. Once per hit.

[Haydensan]

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm fairly comfortable with it applying per hit from flurry of blows now. Taking that as hows its ruled then, what would be the typical go to effects?

And btw Citan, I love the idea of chaining two pushing attacks chasing someone down :smallsmile:

[Solunaris]

If you can't apply Open Hand techniques more than once per flurry, then one of the greatest moments I've ever seen is null and void.

Once, when 5e was still new and fresh I DM'd for a group of friends. The game lasted just long enough for use to get a taste of the game and fall into the roles that we liked over the course of 3 months. The game climaxed at level 5 with a showdown on a seaside cliff the BBEG and his minions had been pushed to by the PCs. The battle started with the Sorcerer wining initiative and casting Haste on the Monk, who was next in the list. The Monk proceeded to use his extra action to dash and sprinted up to the BBEG where he unleashed the greatest combo of abilities I've seen.

First strike and the BBEG takes a stun to the face and flubs the roll. Then the Monk flurries for his bonus attacks to knock the BBEG prone and follows up by pushing him 10 feet off of the side of the cliff. The image was painted as such, "Brethnor leaps forward with unnatural speed weaving in and out of the armored men between himself and Felnir. Once upon his foe Brethnor unleashes a punishing strike to Felnir's throat, knocking him off balance and opening him up to a sweeping kick to the feet. As his foe falls to the ground Brethnor unleashes one last mighty strike catching Felnir midair launching him over the side of the cliff to the rocked depths below."

Admittedly, I shouldn't have placed the BBEG so close to the cliff but we all had a great laugh about how the campaign ended so easily after everything the PCs had to go through to get there.

Edit: I just realized it's not super obvious, but I recommend starting with a Stunning Strike to ensure they fail the follow-up saves which should be knocking them prone if you have other melee combatants or pushing them away to control the flow of battle. If you don't need the push or the prone instead deny reactions because no reactions is always a win. Especially against an enemy caster.

[Malifice]

No, you apply the effect to "one" of your attacks.

Hahaha.

Wait. You don't really think this is true do you?

[Dappershire]

No, it's not once per flurry. It's whenever you hit with one of your attacks granted by flurry of blows (not one of your regular attacks granted by Attack action). There's two attacks in a flurry and if either of them hits, you get to apply the rider effect. Once per hit.

I see where you're coming from. But it can also be read as when -one- of your attacks hits, you apply one effect. If both FoB attacks hit, then you just hit with -two- of your attacks from FoBs. Not One and One.



However, after staring at it, I suppose the word "Whenever" as opposed to "When" does sit the issue in your favor. I grudgingly agree that as written, you are most likely right.
Caveat; I don't like it. I think it should not be allowed, both from a roll playing and a role playing foundation. And I hope they change the wording.

[Dappershire]

Hahaha.

Wait. You don't really think this is true do you?

No need to be snarky. It is not like it can't be read both ways.
Flurry of Blows is a technique giving a Monk two attacks. Open Palm is a technique letting one attack from FoB be used for Battlefield Control.


And didn't your band just break up?

[Cybren]

No need to be snarky. It is not like it can't be read both ways.
Flurry of Blows is a technique giving a Monk two attacks. Open Palm is a technique letting one attack from FoB be used for Battlefield Control.


And didn't your band just break up?

Sure, it can be read both ways, but one way is clearly wrong.

[Arkhios]

Sure, it can be read both ways, but one way is clearly wrong.

Although I can see that work either way in any given table, when in doubt, ask yourself which way is more fun and/or cool :)

[Dappershire]

Sure, it can be read both ways, but one way is clearly wrong.

Eh, I don't see it as clearly. But hey, if you wanna make a monk character a bit more technically and tactically awesome, go for it. Its not broken. I just don't think it is balanced. At least the DM has the right to do the same for his baddies. I can definitely see BBEMonk utilizing this against a party.

[Cybren]

Eh, I don't see it as clearly. But hey, if you wanna make a monk character a bit more technically and tactically awesome, go for it. Its not broken. I just don't think it is balanced. At least the DM has the right to do the same for his baddies. I can definitely see BBEMonk utilizing this against a party.
"Whenever" does not mean "a subset of whenever"

[Dappershire]

"Whenever" does not mean "a subset of whenever"

True, and I capitulated on that point. But if you want to get technical on definitions, "whenever" suggests a state in time. So "whenever" you manage to hit someone with a FoB, you can use your Open Hand technique to throw in a battlefield control. But once you've done that, there is nothing in the wording saying that whenever's state in time is still going. I read it as you've then finished your Open Hand technique. And you have to perform another FoB before you can use that Open Hand technique again.

[Cybren]

True, and I capitulated on that point. But if you want to get technical on definitions, "whenever" suggests a state in time. So "whenever" you manage to hit someone with a FoB, you can use your Open Hand technique to throw in a battlefield control. But once you've done that, there is nothing in the wording saying that whenever's state in time is still going. I read it as you've then finished your Open Hand technique. And you have to perform another FoB before you can use that Open Hand technique again.
The state in time starts again the next time the condition specified with "whenever" occurs again. Because that's what "whenever" means.

Whenever the sun comes up, the rooster crows applies on monday AND tuesday (and wednesday, etc).

[Solunaris]

Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target...(etc)

This is in a completely different section from Flurry of Blows, makes no stipulation about being once per turn or once per flurry, and instead gives a single TRUE/FALSE event that triggers when the conditions are met. I think it's fairly cut and dry. Every other ability that can only be used once per turn specifically calls out it's limited use in it's description, which this one does not. Rather, it just has a slightly more restrictive requirement for it's use.

You Flurry, hit with one attack and the conditions are met. The effect is applied and then you roll to attack again. If you hit again, you have now met the conditions again. Thus the effect is applied again.

[Citan]

I see where you're coming from. But it can also be read as when -one- of your attacks hits, you apply one effect. If both FoB attacks hit, then you just hit with -two- of your attacks from FoBs. Not One and One.



However, after staring at it, I suppose the word "Whenever" as opposed to "When" does sit the issue in your favor. I grudgingly agree that as written, you are most likely right.
Caveat; I don't like it. I think it should not be allowed, both from a roll playing and a role playing foundation. And I hope they change the wording.
Honestly, I fail to see what is bothering you with being able to apply one effect on each attack.
Considering that...
- Only one of the effect requires no save and is not stackable.
- The second requires a DEX save and is not stackable (prone stays prone).
- The third targets another save, and would require Monk to move inbetween attacks to stack.
So rare will be occurences when you can apply both save conditions on the same creature.

Also, using Flurry of Blows does still consumes one ki. Small cost, but a cost nevertheless.

So, mechanically, I don't see why this could be deemed unbalanced.
And flavor-wise, I see no reason why the Monk would be limited to only one effect, considering there is absolutely no restriction in order (like "on the second attack") nor on prealable movement or on target.

[Dappershire]

The state in time starts again the next time the condition specified with "whenever" occurs again. Because that's what "whenever" means.

Whenever the sun comes up, the rooster crows applies on monday AND tuesday (and wednesday, etc).

Sure. Whenever the Sun comes up. So at 6 am, when it rises over the horizon. And 8 am, when it comes up a bit higher? And 11 AM, when it does it again? And 5 pm, when you've been teleported a few kingdoms away, just to see the sun hit its zenith?

[Cybren]

Sure. Whenever the Sun comes up. So at 6 am, when it rises over the horizon. And 8 am, when it comes up a bit higher? And 11 AM, when it does it again? And 5 pm, when you've been teleported a few kingdoms away, just to see the sun hit its zenith?
What wonderful sophistry.

[Solunaris]

Sure. Whenever the Sun comes up. So at 6 am, when it rises over the horizon. And 8 am, when it comes up a bit higher? And 11 AM, when it does it again? And 5 pm, when you've been teleported a few kingdoms away, just to see the sun hit its zenith?

This is actually a poor example because yes, the Rooster does crow at each of those moments. And every moment in between. It even crows as the sun goes down.

I hate Roosters with a passion, and was glad when my family decided to eat the one we kept on the property.

[Haydensan]

Thanks for all the help guys, enjoyed reading the discussion on it too.

@Solunaris, really cool story. Epic way to take out the BBEG.

Makes me wonder -and i know im getting a little farfetched now, but RAC :smallcool:- if you use the push one to knock them over a cliffside and run after them as they get pushed over, could you run up to them and flavour the second hit knocking prone (while flying over the edge) as hammering down over the cliff to increase the fall speed?

If i was DM'ing and the creature they were doing it too wasn't going to get out the situation of being pushed over the edge i think i would let it happen cause it'd be an awesome narrative.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, it's not once per flurry. It's whenever you hit with one of your attacks granted by flurry of blows (not one of your regular attacks granted by Attack action). There's two attacks in a flurry and if either of them hits, you get to apply the rider effect. Once per hit. And it costs a ki point each. :smallbiggrin:

This discussion supports your point (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/62812/22566). I'll discuss with my DM as I just began playing a monk. Your take looks like a good reading of the text.

[Arkhios]

And it costs a ki point each. :smallbiggrin:

yeah, that too. pretty decent (yet steep) cost for chaining, in my opinion :smallbiggrin:

[JBPuffin]

And it costs a ki point each. :smallbiggrin:

This discussion supports your point (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/62812/22566). I'll discuss with my DM as I just began playing a monk. Your take looks like a good reading of the text.


yeah, that too. pretty decent (yet steep) cost for chaining, in my opinion :smallbiggrin:

Wait, where does it say anything but the flurry costs 1 ki point? What is there to cost for "each one?"

I need to check with my DM on this - our monk just got his tradition, need to see where he stands so our monk can be even more ridiculous (may the dice ever roll in his favor...)

[LordVonDerp]

I'm in the middle of building my first monk and I'm looking ahead at the options for archetypes. Open hand definitely looks to be my favourite but I've got a little question about the rules.

It states that whenever you hit a creature with *one* of your attacks with flurry of blows you can select one of the effects. Since flurry of blows is two attacks could I double up and choose one effect for each hit?

For example take the same effect twice (like the pushing one), or even two different effects?
Yes, you can apply an effect whenever you hit with a flurry of blow attack.

[Arkhios]

Wait, where does it say anything but the flurry costs 1 ki point? What is there to cost for "each one?"

I need to check with my DM on this - our monk just got his tradition, need to see where he stands so our monk can be even more ridiculous (may the dice ever roll in his favor...)

Oh, wait, you're right! Open Hand Technique doesn't cost any extra ki! Nice catch!

[Citan]

And it costs a ki point each. :smallbiggrin:

This discussion supports your point (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/62812/22566). I'll discuss with my DM as I just began playing a monk. Your take looks like a good reading of the text.
Errrm. No. Absolutely NOT.
It's one point of Ki to make 2 unarmed attacks as a bonus action (which is perfectly logical since you can already make 1 unarmed attack as a bonus action for no cost), and no additional cost for applying Open Hand Tradition rider.

[Lombra]

Yes you can and yes you can move between the two flurry attacks.