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ReluctantDragon
2007-07-27, 08:08 PM
So, here I am, 1 day before I need to have my character ready for the game. I have nothing. So, I was planning on working on that tonight when I realize I have no muse, no inspiration, no aenema.

In such a dire emergency, I am turning to whatever helpful souls wish to contribute to my cause. It is not an easy undertaking, but those who assist me will have my undying praise and respect. Shall we proceed? Very well.

Terms:
I am needing a level 30 build for a rogue. I must have atleast 20 levels of rogue in this build. The desire is to optimize either stealth/agility/scouting ability or damage in this build. The best I could come up with on my own, sans inspiration was Rogue 25/Thief-Acrobat 5. It is a nice build...it has nice lines, but I seek something with a bit more sauce. In terms of what is possible with resources, consider all WoTC published books available in 3.5 and later release. No Dragon or Dungeon magazines will be available. In terms of what I am looking for, level build, feat build, equipment build, etc. Consider yourself starting from scratch. Again the only prerequisite is that it start at 20 levels of rogue, for unimportant reasons.

Also of note is the fact that epic level spellcasting does not come into play here, save in terms of something that will not be absolutely necessary to be addressed. In other words, myself facing against an epic level spellcaster is not a concern. The largest concern would be optimizing a 20 Rogue/X 10 character for the above parameters.

I hope I have fully explained myself and that there are those of you out there willing to aid me. To those who do submit suggestions, my eternal thanks.

RD.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-27, 08:21 PM
Try the [url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a]Void Incarnate! Rogue 24 (nets an Epic Bonus Feat)/Void Incarnate 4/Swordsage 1, or Rogue 20/Swordsage 1/Void Incarnate 10, or even just Rogue 20/Void Incarnate 10--Swordsage is for Dex to damage (although if you take it as your 30th level, you gain an Initiator level of 1 + floor[29/2] = 15, and can thus pick up maneuvers of 8th level or below.
You can also take a +1 LA (buy it off if the LA Buyoff alternate rules are availible) for the Dark template, which lets you Hide In Plain Sight.

Don't rely on Void Presence too much--mind-effect immunity should be very common in Epic.

Max out Use Magic Device, of course, instead pick up Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery(UMD for one of them), Slippery Mind, and maybe an extra feat (given how unlikely Crippling Strike is to land).

Make sure to take the Darkstalker feat--that means that you can hide from Blindsight, Tremorsense, and all those other things that automatically locate you!

Jasdoif
2007-07-27, 08:50 PM
I make no claims that this is optimal (likely far from it), but it sounds like fun.

Rogue 20 / Warmage 6 / Arcane Trickster 4.

Using the Eclectic Learning variant of Warmage in PHB2 to add mage hand to your list to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

Naturally, keep UMD maxed through your rogue levels. Also, take Practiced Spellcaster for Warmage. The end result here, you can use a staff without needing to roll a UMD check, and you use your Warmage caster level (14 thanks to Practiced Spellcaster) with the spells you cast from them. Also with the usual rogue fun stuff, and ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack from arcane trickster.

Basic concept: Having been a "second-hand caster" through UMD for so long, rogue decides to try being a "first-hand caster" as well.


I picked warmage primarily because you get the ability to cast in light armor without any trouble, but also because you can get your +12d6 sneak attack with your spells, and warmage has a wide array of offensive spells to work with. You might consider going Sorcerer instead, since utility/buff spells won't suffer as much from your lower caster level or save DCs.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-27, 09:00 PM
I make no claims that this is optimal (likely far from it), but it sounds like fun.

Rogue 20 / Warmage 6 / Arcane Trickster 4.

Using the Eclectic Learning variant of Warmage in PHB2 to add mage hand to your list to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

Naturally, keep UMD maxed through your rogue levels. Also, take Practiced Spellcaster for Warmage. The end result here, you can use a staff without needing to roll a UMD check, and you use your Warmage caster level (14 thanks to Practiced Spellcaster) with the spells you cast from them. Also with the usual rogue fun stuff, and ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack from arcane trickster.

Basic concept: Having been a "second-hand caster" through UMD for so long, rogue decides to try being a "first-hand caster" as well.


I picked warmage primarily because you get the ability to cast in light armor without any trouble, but also because you can get your +12d6 sneak attack with your spells, and warmage has a wide array of offensive spells to work with. You might consider going Sorcerer instead, since utility/buff spells won't suffer as much from your lower caster level or save DCs.

I'm going to have to say this is a bad move. Especially with Warmage. Getting sneak attack without flanking is very tricky in Epic--and a fifth level spell +12d6 frankly isn't very much when it's once per round. If the rogue wants to blast, UMDing a staff can let him do that; as a level 30 character he can certainly afford it--but sneak attack is almost never going to work in epic levels, and blasting spells are especially weak, especially for tiny casting like that. Even taking Rogue 30 and getting the two epic bonus feats is a stronger choice than Warmage/Arcane Trickster.

A Rogue/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster build could be solid, but it's not 20 Levels of Rogue.

Dweven
2007-07-27, 09:35 PM
Well. You can try this :

Rogue 20 with the PH II variant. (Don't worry you'll get Improved uncanny dodge with the Scout levels)
Scout 3
Swashbuckler 3
Thief-acrobat 4

Feats
1-Daring outlaw (complete scoundrel) ---> Rogue and swashbuckler levels stack (gives Grace +3 and Dodge +4 (stacks with the dodge bonus granted by the feat))
2-Swift ambusher (idem) ---> Rogue and Scout levels stack (gives skirmish +5d6 +5AC when you move more than 10 feet in a round)
3-Savvy rogue : better special rogue abilities
4-Telling blow: you can now add your sneak attack and/or skirmish dice to critical hit (ouch!)
5,6,7-Dodge, mobility and spring attack
8-Elusive target (for negate power attack)
9-Combat reflexes
10- Robilar's Gambit
11- I think there is a feat that let you add your sneak attack dice on an AoO automatically but I can't remeber which...
12- Deft opportunist
13- Profit ! (or epic feat)

Feat that could also interest you :

Improved skirmish
Staggering strike
Acrobatic strike
Vexing flanker
Adaptable flanker
Improved critical ( weapon of your choice)

So you got +12d6 sneak attack and you can add your skirmish (+5d6) and you gain +5AC for the round if you move more than 10 feet in a round. A lot of skill points, many attacks of opportunities (with robilar's gambit). Your base speed is +10 feet. You add your int score to damage, agilie fighting class features gives you another 2 dodge bonus to armor class ( I think we are at 7 or so now?).

It's a strong build which can move around a lot, hide/sneak into some banks and steal gold pieces or even craft toys for the orphans if you want (epic rogues get so many skill points after all :p) and some more goodies that are listed in detail in the class features.

What do you think of this build ?

P.S. Sorry for the poor grammar/orthograph, english isn't really my first language ;)

Starsinger
2007-07-27, 09:41 PM
You add your int score to damage


I swear Swashbuckler has this stipulation, "Up to your Swashbuckler level", which is fine if you only have 16 or so Int.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-27, 09:49 PM
I swear Swashbuckler has this stipulation, "Up to your Swashbuckler level", which is fine if you only have 16 or so Int.

There's no such limitation. It'd be pretty unnecessary--without uncapped Insightful Strike, Swashbuckler would be even less useful...

Lemur
2007-07-27, 10:47 PM
Well, if any book includes Unapproachable East (it is 3.5, right?) and Tome of Battle, here a thought. You can take the Martial Study feat with the Shadow Hand maneuver Shadow Stride. This should qualify you for the Telflammar Shadowlord's teleport prerequisite. If you take 4 levels of it, you get the Shadow Pounce ability, which lets you full attack someone immediately after teleporting next to them.

You can also take Martial Study again with the Shadow Blink maneuver. Now you can teleport as a standard action (TS' shadow jump ability), a move action (shadow stride), and a swift action (shadow blink). You can burn shadow stride and shadow blink in the same turn, and then follow it up with a shadow jump. The net effect is 3 full attacks on the target of your choice in a single round. It can only be done once per combat, but it's not a shabby attack routine.

Feats needed:
Blind Fight
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Martial Study x2

Recommended Feats:
Elusive Target (you already have Dodge and Mobility)
TWF, Imp TWF, Greater TWF

Unfortunately, I too, lack ideas for a full build. There's 6 levels in something available, but not a lot of feats left over.

Lord Tataraus
2007-07-27, 11:08 PM
Well if you use Lemur's idea, the other six levels could be warblade, allowing you to pull off the 3 full attack combo every other round, plus you can take Martial Stance for a Shadow Hand stance and then take Shadow Blade for dex to damage. Plus you can get the Raging Mongoose boost for massive attacks if you go TWF. 4 attacks normally, plus 4 from off hand (via perfect two-weapon fighting), plus 2 per weapon, gives 12 attacks per full round, 3 full round attacks gives 36 attacks. I would suggest going with some ToB build, but thats just me. Though I would like to second taking the dark template and buy it off.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-28, 03:01 PM
Rogue through level 19 is very solid, and one wasted level isn't too bad. You might want to consider being a dilettante for the other 10 levels. The reason for this is that the beginning abilities of many classes are their strongest, so picking up a bunch of these will make your character more effective.

1 level of Cleric boosts your saves, and gives you 2 domains with their granted powers. (Or go Cloistered Cleric and get a 3rd domain, plus more skill points.)
1 level of Shadowdancer gives the Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight ability, which is especially useful for a Rogue.
2 levels of Fighter give you 2 bonus feats, which are precious to a Rogue. And full BAB, which helps your goal of getting more iterative attacks.
You might consider 2 levels of Monk if your DM won't let you use UMD to train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master. Being able to take a 10' step is very handy. And 2 levels of Monk also provides Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, and Combat Reflexes, all useful for a Rogue.
2 levels of Ranger give you Track and either Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot as bonus feats. Usually TWF is the better choice if you're going to try for sneak attacks via flanking. Plus full BAB.
2 levels of Assassin can provide some useful immediate action spells, and also offers Uncanny Dodge, meaning you can choose the Disruptive Attack alternate class feature (in PH2) that sacrifices Uncanny Dodge to impair enemies that you can't sneak attack, and yet still get Improved Uncanny Dodge through your combined classes.
You should arrange your class progression so you get 4 levels of full BAB classes in your first 20 levels. Combined with your Rogue levels this gives a BAB of +16 at level 20, which means 4 iterative attacks. Only the pre-Epic levels determine how many iterative attacks you get. You can also play with alternate class features, such as Penetrating Strike (in Dungeonscape) to trade trap sense at level 3 for the ability to deal 1/2 sneak attack damage against those normally immune to it. Complete Mage also has some interesting alternate class features that are worth perusing.

Pick equipment and feats to emphasize two characteristics:
Don't get hit!
Maximize your sneak attack.
Don't get hit! You don't have enough hit points, so preserve them. With high DEX and WIS and a Monk's Belt (if you don't have Monk levels) you'll get boosts to your AC from both stats. Buy both the Tome of Wisdom +5 and Manual of Quickness of Action +5 to maximize these abilities, and also +6 stat boosting items. The Belt of Magnificence +6 is probably your best buy at 200,000 gp. Get Bracers of Armor +8, or better if you can afford them. With a limited budget you're better off spending your money on lots of non-Epic items to avoid the Epic price surcharge. A Gemstone of Heavy Fortification (Draconomicon) is cheaper than getting this as an armor property. You'll want Mobility as an armor property for your Bracers to save a feat. You must also get +5 deflection and +5 natural armor enhancement items, and a Dusty rose Ioun stone for another +1 to AC.

A wand of Alter Self is cheap and extremely useful for you. You can get the base speed(s), natural armor, and racial feats of any suitable form. The Tren (from Serpent Kingdoms) has 30' land speed, 40' swim speed, and +8 natural armor. I really like the Varag (from MM4) with a 60' land speed, +3 natural armor, and Run and Spring Attack as racial feats. Whichever form you choose, your +5 natural armor enhancement will stack with the base natural armor from the Alter Self form. Using all these options, your flat-footed AC should be at least in the 50s. You can also add a constant 20% miss chance from something like Blur or a Cloak of Deflection.

A high AC, 100% Fortification, and a 20% miss chance makes you set for melee. But you also need help against magic. A Lavender and green Ioun stone is a great option for targeted spells of 8th level and lower. But getting your saves up will help the most. A Cloak of Resistance +5 is a good start, and your excellent Reflex save and Evasion is 1/3 of the total save solution. Add the Dexterous Fortitude and Dexterous Will Epic feats and you're in great shape to save against almost anything. If you're going to have Clerical domains I recommend the Pride domain because it lets you reroll any 1 on a saving throw, once per save.

Maximize your sneak attack. A Rogue's main source of damage is from sneak attack. Concentrate on that. Don't ever spend money on weapon enhancements (such as flaming) that increase damage when you can increase your chances of hitting instead. Remember the First Rule of Sneak Attack: If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero. Get all your weapons enhanced up to +5 and keen/impact before you consider any other enhancements.

The main ways of getting sneak attack are:
When the enemy is flat-footed at the start of combat
When the enemy can't see you
When you flank the enemy
When the enemy is denied their DEX bonus to AC
If you score a critical hit and have the Telling Blow feat
When the enemy is flat-footed at the start of combat and isn't immune to such sneak attack, every hit within 30' range adds sneak attack damage. You want your initiative modifier to be very high. Your high DEX helps greatly, of course. You should add Improved Initiative (which uses up one of your Fighter bonus feats) for +4 and Quick Reconnoiter for +2. Also carry a ranged weapon with the warning enhancement for another +5. The ranged weapon is key, because you'd waste an opportunity to sneak attack by closing for melee combat instead of attacking. Your ranged weapon must be able to fire at your full iterative attack rate for precision damage so you can attack both in the surprise round and for a full attack in the next round when you win initiative.

When the enemy can't see you and isn't immune you can also sneak attack. You should have a wand of Greater Invisibility. At high levels See Invisibility is common, though, so you can try sneakier options. Use Deeper Darkness cast on the tip of a sheathed weapon, and Ebon Eyes on yourself. The Darkness when you draw the weapon provides 100% concealment, yut the other spell keeps it from impairing you. But the option I like best is simply the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight, because you're almost always within 10' of a shadow. Then you can get anywhere within 30' of an enemy and attack them, making a Hide check with a -20 penalty on each swing or missile. With HiPS you don't have to use the sniping maneuver, which means you can make full attacks and (with a maxed out Hide skill) likely staying hidden all the while. If you remain hidden you get to add sneak attack damage on each hit.

When you flank the enemy you'll be need to be opposite a helpful ally. Getting into this position requires good speed. The Alter Self wand with the Varag form helps. You can also consider adding the Clerical Celerity domain for a +10' boost to your speed, and maybe a level of Barbarian if your DM lets you take the Use Magic Device option to train with the Sparring Dummy of the Master instead of taking Monk levels. One essential Epic item for you to have is a pair of Boots of Swiftness, as this doubles your (unenhanced) base speed. Varag + Barbarian + Celerity domain + Quick trait (Unearthed Arcana) + Boots of Swiftness = 180' base land speed, without any enhancement bonus. At this speed you'll be able to get into flanking position almost anywhere in the battlefield in a single move action. But to do it safely you'll want to Tumble all the way there. You take a -10 penalty for Accelerated Tumbling or a -20 penalty for Sprinting Tumble, so you'll need a lot of ranks in the skill. Basically you don't walk, hustle, or run on your feet -- you Tumble in place of all these, avoiding almost all AoOs.

When the enemy is denied their DEX bonus to AC you can sneak attack them. This covers a slew of different combat situations. A balancing enemy with under 5 ranks in Balance is flat-footed. Buy a wand of Grease with the Widen Spell metamagic feat pre-applied; this lets you slick up a 20' x 20' area. An enemy that's climbing is denied their DEX bonus to AC, so you should get into trees and the like to oppose melee foes; you also get the "on higher ground" bonus this way. The Sleight of Hand technique in Complete Warrior, the Flick of the Wrist feat (also CW), and the Hidden Blade skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) all let you perform a sneak attack with a hidden weapon. Some of these require Quick Draw, which will use up your other Fighter bonus feat. The Acrobatic Backstab skill trick lets you Tumble to get in a sneak attack. Skill tricks are limited to once/encounter, so your most reliable way of denying an enemy their DEX bonus to AC is through feinting. Maximizing your Bluff skill is key. Most enemies won't have much in Sense Motive skill, so you'll be opposing their straight BAB with your higher Bluff check. A CHA boost helps you, naturally. Feinting works well with Spring Attack and high speed, and that feat's prerequisites will be met once you take a level of Shadowdancer.

If you score a critical hit and have the Telling Blow feat you can sneak attack enemies when you don't meet the usual sneak attack criteria. A weapon with a wide threat range is essential here. A +5 keen rapier is a good start for melee combat with a 15-20 critical threat range. There aren't too many good choices for missile weapons, but a +5 quick loading light crossbow with a wand of Keen Edge to improve the bolts will give you a 17-20 threat range and full rate of fire.

There are some enemies that are normally immune to sneak attack. For undead and constructs there are good workarounds: the Truedeath and Demolition weapon augment crystals (in Magic Item Compendium). Ghost Strike is a handy 1st level immediate action Cleric spell that you can prepare for when you're surprised by undead and don't have the Truedeath crystal installed. And I've already mentioned the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature, for other sneak-immune enemies.

You can't sneak attack an enemy with concealment. Get a wand of True Strike. It's not only an almost guaranteed hit because of the +20 insight bonus, but this spell also lets you ignore concealment.

Having covered making sneak attacks, you want to increase your damage. When you attack with a touch spell you only have to hit the enemy's touch AC, and your sneak attack damage is added to, and is of the same type as that of the spell (except when you do ability damage, in which case the sneak attack is negative energy damage). You can buy wands with high caster levels to do more damage. A wand of Shivering Touch (from Frostburn) is very effective because this spell damages the enemy's DEX. Also consider a wand of Vampiric Touch, because you'll get back all the damage you deal -- including sneak attack damage -- as temporary hit points.

The best way of increasing your sneak attack damage is the Craven feat (from Champions of Ruin). This will add +30 damage to every one of your sneak attacks -- at the risk of running like a sissy from some fights, because it makes you more vulnerable to fear.

I think this should get your Rogue ready. Good luck!