*New Player* Druid/Barb/Monk Grapple Tank! Need help

[Blind_Prophet]

Hey all, me again are my failed attempt at a Warlock/Paladin tank I just played a random pre-gen (ran out of time before game), anyways it was a druid and I really liked the idea of wildshape...was planning a barb/druid since it's another of my fav multi-classes from 3e/PF but randomly stumbled upon a thread about grappling bears and octopi.

Anyways it seemed like a fun concept so I started theorizing...I bounced back and forth between a Druid/Monk and a Druid/Barb but was unable to settle so I figured I would see what a Druid/Monk/Barb looks like and this is what I came up with and I was wondering how viable this is (note: extra attack is pointless since several wildshapes get multi-attack)

Ghostwise Halfling Druid2/Monk1/Barb1 (current)
L8r: Barb4/Druid2/Monk2 or Monk5/Barb3/Druid2

Str 13 (barb pre-req)
Dex 16 (monk pre-req and useful outside of wildshape)
Con 12 (a little low but wildshape helps with this)
Int 10 (i need to put 2 points somewhere)
Wis 16 (Pre-req for monk & druid, decent AC outside of WS)
Cha 8

1. Monk1 - AC = 10 + Dex + Wis
2. Druid1 - Druid Spellcasting
3. Druid2 - CR 1 Wildshape, Self-heal, Quick WS
4. Barb1 - AC = 10 + Dex + Con (Best applies, rarely useful TBH), Rage (+X damage and adv. on Str checks ie. grappling)
5. Barb2 - Adv. on Dex saves
6. Barb3 - Bear Totem FTW (resist ALL)
7. Barb4 - Feat: Grappler or Mage Slayer (partially dependent on DM ruling of how grappler works...either useless or awesome)

Beyond 7 Possibilities
Monk 2+: Main boosts are unarmed damage (& DR bypass), movement speed, Ki and either Open Palm or Shadow, also evasion stacks nicely with danger sense.
Druid 3+: Higher CR Shapeshifts, DR Bypass (can gain from Monk instead), Higher Level Spells Slots.
Barb 5+: More rages per rest, higher rage damage boost, not much else until 11+ Lvls of Barb.

Mainly a mix of Druid and Monk most likely...just not sure in what order...prob get monk or druid to 4 than the other to start (for feats and ASIs)

So uh yeah,all help is greatly appreciated.


P.S. Can other players ride me when I'm wildshaped?

[Tetrasodium]

P.S. Can other players ride me when I'm wildshaped?

Yes, it's amazing & done right (i.e. mounted combatant rider & sentinel druid for pretty foolproof lockdown)will blow away grappling. to be honest, the monk/bararian doesn't work all that well because you don't add your wis/con bonus to the beast's natural ac. you use 10+the beast's dex mod+either wis or con mod & you ill be behind on your wildshape forms by multiclassing either. there's a guide in progress in my sig that might be of help.

[Blind_Prophet]

there's a guide in progress in my sig that might be of help.

Thanks I'll read through it :)

[Garresh]

You're on the right path, but you are approaching it incorrectly. Look up the grappler's handbook. It explains builds.

Anyways allow me to summarize the 3 things you need:

Extra Attack
Expertise Athletics
Advantage to Strength Checks

So, we can see monk offers none of this, so we can drop monk. A single dip in rogue is the fastest way to get athletics expertise. Remember, in wild shape you use the beast stats with YOUR proficiency, so bears will wreck.

Now then, you will want 5 levels in barbarian eventually, but extra attack is less important in the short term, and can be delayed for quite a while really. Generally the goal is to shove them down and grapple in one turn, BUT, this is not strictly necessary in the short term, so long as you have the other two requirements.

So the fastest way to come online is Barbarian 1 for Rage, Rogue 1 for Expertise, and Druid 2 for moon wild shape. The rage + moon makes you have a LOT of hp(but mediocre AC). From there, you *could* go to barbarian 5 quickly, picking up key things like extra attack and bonus resistances while raging, but I feel you are better off going to druid 6 first, and maybe delaying barbarian 5 for a long time(maybe even never taking it).

The reason for this is simple: Grapple is situational. Extra attack is wasted on forms with multiattack(which is the forms you'll be using). This means with 2 levels in non druid, you can go full druid from there on out, functioning as a good utility caster/controller, having pretty good damage progression(rage will help with low points), and absolutely amazing durability.

If you rush barbarian 5 first, you're actually not getting a huge damage spike unless you invest in feats, which will cause your build to lose focus and suffer. Really barbarian is a 1 point wonder as far as non-grapple wild shape is concerned.

This means you want to pick a very high power breakpoint for your druid multiclass, as extra attack isn't amazingly important til you're grappling balors and junk and *really* want to shove them down and grapple first turn.

So the best break points are druid 6 due to polar bear and druid 10 due to elementals. This means you can get extra attack by either level 12 or level 16, while still being mostly functional in fights where grappling isn't key. By high levels you can quickly control big bads while raging, and dump spell slots while raging(it works for wild shape healing) to create the ultimate tank.

If facing armies of mooks, you can drop control spells which will create difficult terrain, or even warding wind yourself then rush in as bear to create a moving ball of difficult terrain centered on you.

One more thing. Since druids don't care about ASIs much, you have some slots free to grap good feats. I strongly recommend you stary barbarian for Con saves, then pick up warcaster and sentinel. These will allow you to control multiple creatures around you while grappling one, and concentrate on spells without failing despite being in melee. It's a good way to compensate for levels "lost" to barbarian, and just to make moon druid a lot more versatile since you can sustain spells while in bear form.

[sxmedicus]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486146-D-amp-D-5e-2-player-combo-The-Direwolf-Riding-Knight

Some ideas to keep bouncing around.

[Blind_Prophet]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486146-D-amp-D-5e-2-player-combo-The-Direwolf-Riding-Knight

Some ideas to keep bouncing around.

Haven't read the whole thing yet but looks like it'll be helpful, are those your drawings? their really cool!

Just to note though my rider will be primarily a spellcaster (currently Undying Warlock, not sure if she's sticking with that) so not really a dual tank thing, I'm both her transport and her guardian. :D

[sxmedicus]

Haven't read the whole thing yet but looks like it'll be helpful, are those your drawings? their really cool!

Just to note though my rider will be primarily a spellcaster (currently Undying Warlock, not sure if she's sticking with that) so not really a dual tank thing, I'm both her transport and her guardian. :D

Yes they are, thank you!
To be honest, he mount(pal2/druid all the way, maybe fighter2-3)cant help that much on the defense, its more like a top tier glass cannon with great mobility and the options of doing 2 smite attacks while in brown/polar bear form or a bite with a rider effect and advantage while in direwolf form.
It looks troublesome to dms but has quite specific low level weakness which im going to let you figure out.
So the mounted combatant rider is the one doing the heavy lifting for defense having heavy armor, shield and buffs idealy while not sucking at fighting too... i would suggest a cleric(life) if the rider is so much inclined to be a spellcaster

The mount even multiclassing to barbarian for resistances cant go on par with mid level challenges by itself so id suggest you skip it... while Barb1/Drd2 is lots of low level OP fun thou... a raging brown bear that hits harder and heals itself as bonus action its fearsome, it witstood about 40 attackers on a 10ft passage while the party and him killed them all thermopilas style.. yeah a challenge our DM expected ua to run from or be stealty.. my (3rd lvl) ass

That sounds fun to you? The two player combo on the other post felled a huge demon smithing both of them while the monster was laying flat on its back trying to hit us but failing most, while we fought surrounded by his minions... every square around us....first to charge and last men standing... hope this helps

[sxmedicus]

http://img00.deviantart.net/b574/i/2016/117/9/5/13052683_10156688337570391_1460412282_o_by_sxcentr icus-da0f07m.jpg
Btw, the rider was supposed to be D-VA meets Jon Snow/Sejuani in design but the player (my girlfriend at that time) suggested otherwise. The mount was exactly how I wanted it, Winter wolf-ish.
The human faces were pretty much us.

[Citan]

Ghostwise Halfling Druid2/Monk1/Barb1 (current)
L8r: Barb4/Druid2/Monk2 or Monk5/Barb3/Druid2

Str 13 (barb pre-req)
Dex 16 (monk pre-req and useful outside of wildshape)
Con 12 (a little low but wildshape helps with this)
Int 10 (i need to put 2 points somewhere)
Wis 16 (Pre-req for monk & druid, decent AC outside of WS)
Cha 8

1. Monk1 - AC = 10 + Dex + Wis
2. Druid1 - Druid Spellcasting
3. Druid2 - CR 1 Wildshape, Self-heal, Quick WS
4. Barb1 - AC = 10 + Dex + Con (Best applies, rarely useful TBH), Rage (+X damage and adv. on Str checks ie. grappling)
5. Barb2 - Adv. on Dex saves
6. Barb3 - Bear Totem FTW (resist ALL)
7. Barb4 - Feat: Grappler or Mage Slayer (partially dependent on DM ruling of how grappler works...either useless or awesome)

Hi!

This will certainly be an interesting build. ;)
Honestly though, if you want to really take advantage of Moon Druid Wild Shapes, I'd say that Druid 10 is mandatory. Elemental Shapes are really that good.
A nice split could be Barb 4 / Monk 5 / Druid 10 / Rogue 1.
Why is that?
Considering your DM has no problem with Monk features mixing in Wild Shape (I'd really expect him to frown about bonus action unarmed attack/Flurry of Blows. Everything else should be fine), you get...
- All you said about Barbarian
- Extra Attack to stay competitive when out of Wild Shape but, more importantly, great defensive abilities that you can use with your bonus action, including the "Dodge/Dash/Disengage" features.
- Rogue 1 will net you Expertise in Athletics for those Shove/Grapple strategies.
- And you still get Druid Elemental Forms, some of which IIRC pair REALLY well with Barb.

You also get Monk archetype features...
- If DM is lenient and allow Flurry of Blows, Open Hand is golden. Otherwise, it's "just good".
- 4 Elements could be interesting for a Land Druid with higer investment, but unless you really want to get Burning Hands it's useless for you.
- Shadow is nice in that it gives you a few utility spells, although they will consume precious ki.
- Long Death Monk is probably the best choice if available: its lvl 3 feature totally works and has chance to trigger as a beast.

Another way to go at it would be to cap Druid 6 (CR 2), but it really restricts your choice of creatures: Giant Elk/Constrictor Snake/Boar, Polar Bear, Rhinoceros, Sabertooth Tiger...
Honestly I'm afraid that by the time you get these you will feel cheated because the enemies you will face at the time will usually drop your beast form in one, maybe 2 rounds so you will feel like you never could really enjoy it.

Even the build I suggest, I would advise you to priorize Druid otherwise you risk having the feeling you get overpowered as a form beast on a regular basis (although you will obviously last much longer than a normal Druid by stacking Monk defense and Barb damage resistance).

Like, starting as you said up until level 6 then rushing towards Druid 6 as a priority: Sabertooth Tiger or Giant Elk provide good mobility and attack, while Giant Constrictor Snake will make your grappling tactics shine.
Then either continuing on this road if you feel not satisfied enough with your current forms, or starting Monk straight up to 5 to get Ki on defense/mobility features in addition to direct speed bump and WIS bump...
- Tiger with Rage, Monk speed and bonus action Dash or Disengage could make for great hit and run tactics.
- Giant Elk with Monk's speed, Unarmored Defense AND bonus action Dodge stacked upon Rage would be a fearsome opponent, getting good AC (beast DEX + your WIS), great speed (60 feet + 10 feet + potential 10 feet from Longstrider) and great attack, keeping your bonus action open for ki.
Then finish to get Elemental Forms as a capstone.

In any case, you will certainly not end with a "powerful" build (compared to the "optimized" builds you can find on these forums), but it should provide enough versatility and efficiency to contribute sufficiently to the team, while allowing you to have fun with your concept. Which is all everyone need really. ;)

[Blind_Prophet]

@Citan. That stuff sounds pretty cool...I love the "Long Death Monk"....fluff wise it actually meshes with my rider pretty well since her concept is the study of life and death and the de-stigmitizing of "necromantic" practices (it's what you do with it not what it is), would be cool if my druid had similar ideals...more of a "circle of life" concept but enough that they might be close friends (enough to let her ride me)....with that I'm kind of tempted to drop barb in favor of more Monk, of course that drops the grapple idea but I think a Druid/Monk Mount and a Paladin/Sorc, Paladin/Warlock or Eldritch Knight Fighter is a good duo. If not I really like your idea...leveling order is gonna take alot of thought.

[Citan]

@Citan. That stuff sounds pretty cool...I love the "Long Death Monk"....fluff wise it actually meshes with my rider pretty well since her concept is the study of life and death and the de-stigmitizing of "necromantic" practices, would be cool if my druid had similar ideals...more of a "circle of life" concept but enough that they might be close friends (enough to let her ride me)....with that I'm kind of tempted to drop barb in favor of more Monk, of course that drops the grapple idea but I think a Druid/Monk Mount and a Paladin/Sorc, Paladin/Warlock or Eldritch Knight Fighter is a good duo. If not I really like your idea...leveling order is gonna take alot of thought.
I edited my post meanwhile, you may find some tips. :)

Yeah, leveling WILL be a PITA, that's for sure.
As long as you are okay with getting some "stalling" during a few levels it should be fine though, but you will certainly feel your concept fully online very late in the campaign.
Would have helped if you could jumpstart your character to something like character level 6-7.

Also, please bear in mind that I totally forgot about the "friend riding on me" aspect in my suggestions -and I never played that concept myself- so I may have missed things or made bad advice to that regard.
(Especially, people who already tried this kind of thing may consider that capping at CR1 creatures is fine. In which case leveling will be much easier for you obviously).

[Blind_Prophet]

I edited my post meanwhile, you may find some tips. :)

Yeah, leveling WILL be a PITA, that's for sure.
As long as you are okay with getting some "stalling" during a few levels it should be fine though, but you will certainly feel your concept fully online very late in the campaign.
Would have helped if you could jumpstart your character to something like character level 6-7.

Also, please bear in mind that I totally forgot about the "friend riding on me" aspect in my suggestions -and I never played that concept myself- so I may have missed things or made bad advice to that regard.
(Especially, people who already tried this kind of thing may consider that capping at CR1 creatures is fine. In which case leveling will be much easier for you obviously).

No worries your suggestions are quite helpful :D

Druid is still up in the air with the plans (still debating grappling vs. Druid progression, partially dependent on DM ruling but is Adventurer League so a bit worried about table variance)...CR 1's go to form seems to be Dire Wolf especially since having a rider grants me nearly permanent advantage on attack rolls (Pack Tactics), Giant Elk seems pretty cool at CR 2...with Monk AC the Elk has a nice 16 AC and 4D8+4 hoof dmg is crazy..makes me think twice about cranking up the Monk levels (as unarmed maxes out at D10).

Monk1 is of course still really useful (AC in and out of form and lethal punches out of form) so might be something like Druid18/Monk1-2/???0-1 (for beast spell and CR 6 Shapes) or Druid16/Barb3/Monk1 (For Rage/Bear Totem but only CR 5 shapes but CR 6 is kinda meh TBH)....or Druid16/Monk3-4/???0-1 (even sans the unarmed damage monks levels are still useful with stuff like deflect missiles, ki, monastic tradtions, increased movement and if 4 levels a feat and slow fall)

Speaking of druid how do you guys usually handle magic items, the rules seem to state that you basically meld (lose it's effects) or drop all your equipment (since rings and armor that fits a halfling or a human wouldn't fit a bear, wolf or elk)

Anyways as for the rider, we've settled on either Eldritch Knight or Paladin/Sorcerer leaning heavily to the latter allowing her to be both very tanky and have wicked damage output with quickened spell & Divine Smite (Guide Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass))

[Tetrasodium]

I edited my post meanwhile, you may find some tips. :)

Yeah, leveling WILL be a PITA, that's for sure.
As long as you are okay with getting some "stalling" during a few levels it should be fine though, but you will certainly feel your concept fully online very late in the campaign.
Would have helped if you could jumpstart your character to something like character level 6-7.

Also, please bear in mind that I totally forgot about the "friend riding on me" aspect in my suggestions -and I never played that concept myself- so I may have missed things or made bad advice to that regard.
(Especially, people who already tried this kind of thing may consider that capping at CR1 creatures is fine. In which case leveling will be much easier for you obviously).

a CR1 brown bear has 19 strength &2 attacks(2d6claws 1d8bite) , cr1 direwolf 17str w/1 attack. CR2 is pretty similar in that regard with beast form gains in areas like hp or maybe better proficiency bonus to attack for a level or so (you use whichever is higher yours or the beast). If he's going mount & rider, I strongly recommend a kobold for pack tactics on bear/elemental/mammoth/etc. If he's going to be playing in AL, that goes triple since his phb+1 will be volo's with all the beasts in volos.

[Blind_Prophet]

a CR1 brown bear has 19 strength &2 attacks(2d6claws 1d8bite) , cr1 direwolf 17str w/1 attack. CR2 is pretty similar in that regard with beast form gains in areas like hp or maybe better proficiency bonus to attack for a level or so (you use whichever is higher yours or the beast). If he's going mount & rider, I strongly recommend a kobold for pack tactics on bear/elemental/mammoth/etc. If he's going to be playing in AL, that goes triple since his phb+1 will be volo's with all the beasts in volos.

Ghostwise is primarily for silent speech (telepathy) since it allows me to "talk" whilst in wildshape but Kobold is a cool idea, also I was only looking in the monster manual for wildshape i'll check out volo....any suggestions for a good way to have all my wild shapes printed out? (I have a printer but table space is a consideration)

[Citan]

No worries your suggestions are quite helpful :D

Druid is still up in the air with the plans (still debating grappling vs. Druid progression, partially dependent on DM ruling but is Adventurer League so a bit worried about table variance)...CR 1's go to form seems to be Dire Wolf especially since having a rider grants me nearly permanent advantage on attack rolls (Pack Tactics), Giant Elk seems pretty cool at CR 2...with Monk AC the Elk has a nice 16 AC and 4D8+4 hoof dmg is crazy..makes me think twice about cranking up the Monk levels (as unarmed maxes out at D10).

Monk1 is of course still really useful (AC in and out of form and lethal punches out of form) so might be something like Druid18/Monk1-2/???0-1 (for beast spell and CR 6 Shapes) or Druid16/Barb3/Monk1 (For Rage/Bear Totem but only CR 5 shapes but CR 6 is kinda meh TBH)....or Druid16/Monk3-4/???0-1 (even sans the unarmed damage monks levels are still useful with stuff like deflect missiles, ki, monastic tradtions, increased movement and if 4 levels a feat and slow fall)

You are right, I did miss Dire Wolf, seems the perfect form for you... In fact I find it much much better than Brown Bear overall, wondering why so much hype about the latter (although you offset most BB drawbacks with your build, Dire Wolf has indeed good things to offer for a rider) And competitive enough to make a build capped at CR 1 for a while something to consider, with Monk bringing some kind of different value.

So... If you are set on a particular form for your whole life (Dire Wolf / Giant Elk -which is great indeed XD- / Elementals -could you ride on an Earth Elemental?-) make it your final goal and plan around it (don't forget to check with your DM beforehand, which Monk features he rules compatible with Rage/Wild Shape).

If Dire Wolf is, at the very least, fine by you for a good part of your life, then...
Monk 1 > Druid 2 > Barb 3 > Monk 4 seems good to me. Your concept is fully online at character level 6, then everything more is just strenghtening your fortes.
After that, it's open...

Either go more Barb for Extra Attack, 10 foot more movement, Elk (double travel pace for whole group is nice) and up to Feral Instinct.

Or go Monk for Extra Attack, 5 foot more, Stunning Strike, Magical Strikes, and more Ki for defensive features or Way features, up to Evasion (7) or ASI (8).

Or go Druid all the way (you can still reach Elemental forms).

Or do any mix in-between (honestly, you could even go Druid 6 / Barb 7 / Monk 7: you stack one useless Extra Attack but you get magic attacks either in beast or human (in case DM is strict), Giant Elk form + 10 feet from Barb + 15 feet from Monk + all useful traveling spells from Druid (Longstrider/Jump/Water Breathing/Water Walk/Pass Without Trace) along with Elk Totem bonus and more Rage (meaning you can travel very long distances with your rider). Big problem is ASI though.

If you want to keep ASIs, I'd say pick between...

a) "Raging" Dire Wolf: Druid 2 / Barb 14 (Wolf if rider melee, otherwise Bear/Elk or Wolf / Tiger) / Monk 4 (Long Death): the most martial one.

b) "Charging" Giant Elk: Druid 6 / Barb 11 (Bear/Elk/Elk obviously XD) / Monk 3 (Long Death): you rush into melee, proning people as you move. XD

c) "Resilient" Dire Wolf: Druid 2 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 14 (Shadow / 4 Elements): between Rage and Monk features (including Diamond Soul) you will be damn hard to bring down.

d) "Balanced" Giant Elk: Moon Druid 7 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 9 (any): great movement, all the good non-concentration spells you really need from Druid (+ some concentration ones to have fun with when out of Rage), all Monk defense up to Evasion, decent amount of Ki to blow on defensive features.

Thoughts about Totem choices
LVL 3
Bear is often the "obvious choice" for lvl 3 because of damage resistance.
If you go Dire Wolf though, I'd strongly suggest taking Wolf: perfect thematically, plus you "give back" to your rider the advantage he grants to you through Pack Tactics: perfect for a ranged with Crossbow Expert or melee fighter.
Finally, don't forget Elk: extra 15 feet of movement is pretty neat.

lvl6
These are mainly fluff/situational features.
If you go that far, I'd still suggest favoring Elk: doubling the travel pace for your whole group is pretty neat, and thematically fitting.
Or Wolf, if you want to make a scout team with your rider.

lvl 14
Tough choices here all are great: Bear for extra resilience, Elk or Tiger for "attack on move" effect, Eagle for FLY!!!
Honestly, I find the idea of a flying Wolf with something like 75 feet of move pretty funny. XD

As for Monk Way, I'd say it really depends on what your DM would allow.

4 Elements
IF DM is nice enough to accept that non-spells 4E abilities work in beast form AND you choose a leveling path with many Monks levels, then 4 Elements is high on the podium, competing closely with Long Death.
Fangs of Fire Snake means you won't even risk yourself to attack, Fist(lol) of Unbroken Air or Water Whip gives you some control, or you could just take Shape the Flowing River for your own personal ice passage on rivers, or just be able to cast occasional Burning Hands just as you go out of Wild Shape.
And if you go high enough you can get up to 3rd level spells that Druid don't have (Fly, Fireball) that keep you competitive when out of rage/wild shape.
So great for "Resilient" build, pretty nice for "Balanced" one. Pretty much a bad choice for others.

Long Death
Otherwise, I'd suggest Long Death: as said before, lvl3 has no reason to be incompatible with beast form nor Rage, and I would daresay it's the same for the lvl 6 ability (quite on the contrary XD).
So you could switch, depending on the situation, between pure offense (plain Extra Attack + bonus action as normal) to balanced martial (beast Action + Dodge bonus action) to balanced magic (Fear as Action + Flaming Sphere bonus action) to pure defense (Fear + Healing Words or move or whatever).
So it's a pretty good choice for all builds, offering great feature each step (Mastery of Death is very great also) and the preferable one for "Raging" and "Charging" builds: you want to keep those few ki points for something else.

Open Hand
IF your DM would allow Flurry of Blows in beast form though, Open Hand is a great choice for Balanced build mainly: lower builds lack the ki while higher level "Sanctuary" will be useless for you, works against Rage.

Shadow
Shadow is great for Balanced or fine for Resilient builds: while it works against Rage and Beasts as far as spells go and need a decent amount of ki to fuel, Shadow Step can be used in many situations, especially as an Elk (only one attack anyways). Lvl 11 Cloak of Shadows may or not be useful to you (I think not, but I may miss something)...

Sun Soul
Same for Sun Soul Monk: most abilities won't be usable as a beast, but they make you still a great asset while out of beast form. :) If you are solely interested in Burning Hands, a better choice than 4E: you only get it at level 6 (but you want decent pool of ki anyways) but it costs one ki less.

>>> In short, Long Death is the great "by default" choice (especially if you are not sure how far you will go in Monk), others may be better depending on your goal, taste and how your DM rules Monk features's interaction with beast form / raging.

[Blind_Prophet]

Hmmm...It will take some more discussion with my rider but let's break down the some of the options you mentioned

Resilient" Dire Wolf: Druid 2 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 14 (Shadow / 4 Elements): between Rage and Monk features (including Diamond Soul) you will be damn hard to bring down.

"Balanced" Giant Elk: Moon Druid 7 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 9

OR (my addition) "Elemental Rage" Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)

Lvl 3 = Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 6 = Barb3/Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 9 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 10 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2
Lvl 12 = Monk5/Druid4/Barb3 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 20 = Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)


Option Notes:
"Resilient" - AMAZING defensive features from monk (and barb 3 but all 3 builds get that) BUT Dire Wolf only has 37 HP which NEVER scales...Earth Elemental has 126 IIRC, also Wildshape duration is only 1 hour (1/2 druid level) making it difficult to be in form all day

"Balanced": This one isn't much better with Elk only having 42 HP...as with wolf great for low levels but I can see it becoming one shot at higher levels, that said wildshape is now for 3 hours. Losing feat/ASIs actually isn't all that bad since this build only needs +4 Wisdom. that said once again the monk abilities are VERY tempting, although my rider friend and I found that the feat "Mounted combatant" actually grants me the equivalent to Evasion AND 3rd edition improved evasion when she's riding my druid.

"Elemental Rage": Elk & Wolf are going to be an issue in mid-levels tempting to delay Bear-Barian until later to get Elly's earlier (CR 3s are around 52 HP, whereas Earth Elly has 126 IIRC) but than again I'll be taking alot more damage when I DO get hit, so I dunno, again as mentioned in "balanced" Monk evasion might be unnecessary due to "mounted combatant" so it's a question of how often I'm out of form and/or Riderless (should know by Lvl 12 no problem) whether I go for Druid10/Monk7 or Druid 12/Monk5 (or a lvl or 2 in a 4th class)


So looking at these 3 options I can definitely agree that allowing my druid levels to lag too much is a bad idea (so "Charging" & "Raging" aren't really options either), so thank you for helping me see that.

The questions that remain are the final Lvl tally of one of the following: Druid12/Monk5/Barb3, Druid10/Monk7/Barb3 or Druid10/Monk5/Barb3/???2 (although Druid12+/Monk6-7+ is still tempting)...but honestly that can probably only be answered through in-game experience, for now I have up to Lvl 6 planned Barb3/Druid2/Monk1 so I have plenty of level (currently 3) to figure out where I'm going for level 7+

The other being which Monk path, but you seemed to have edited your post with some suggestions so I'll check that out now :D

Edit: Monk Path wise seems like "Long Death" is my safest bet, with Four Elements being an "Ask the DM" thing. I'll probably go with the former just to avoid table variance issues.

Edit2: It seems earth elemental gets the same ability that Barb3 "Bear" does so it's actually really tempting to drop Barbarian in favor of fast druid progression...this would greatly delay the "Resistance" but save me 3 levels.

Edit3: Oh and thanks again everyone, you've all really helped me get my head wrapped around this idea :D Still not done of course but much closer.

[Tetrasodium]

Hmmm...It will take some more discussion with my rider but let's break down the some of the options you mentioned

Resilient" Dire Wolf: Druid 2 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 14 (Shadow / 4 Elements): between Rage and Monk features (including Diamond Soul) you will be damn hard to bring down.

"Balanced" Giant Elk: Moon Druid 7 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 9

OR (my addition) "Elemental Rage" Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)

Lvl 3 = Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 6 = Barb3/Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 9 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 10 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2
Lvl 12 = Monk5/Druid4/Barb3 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 20 = Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)


Option Notes:
"Resilient" - AMAZING defensive features from monk (and barb 3 but all 3 builds get that) BUT Dire Wolf only has 37 HP which NEVER scales...Earth Elemental has 126 IIRC, also Wildshape duration is only 1 hour (1/2 druid level) making it difficult to be in form all day

"Balanced": This one isn't much better with Elk only having 42 HP...as with wolf great for low levels but I can see it becoming one shot at higher levels, that said wildshape is now for 3 hours. Losing feat/ASIs actually isn't all that bad since this build only needs +4 Wisdom. that said once again the monk abilities are VERY tempting, although my rider friend and I found that the feat "Mounted combatant" actually grants me the equivalent to Evasion AND 3rd edition improved evasion when she's riding my druid.

"Elemental Rage": Elk & Wolf are going to be an issue in mid-levels tempting to delay Bear-Barian until later to get Elly's earlier (CR 3s are around 52 HP, whereas Earth Elly has 126 IIRC) but than again I'll be taking alot more damage when I DO get hit, so I dunno, again as mentioned in "balanced" Monk evasion might be unnecessary due to "mounted combatant" so it's a question of how often I'm out of form and/or Riderless (should know by Lvl 12 no problem) whether I go for Druid10/Monk7 or Druid 12/Monk5 (or a lvl or 2 in a 4th class)


So looking at these 3 options I can definitely agree that allowing my druid levels to lag too much is a bad idea (so "Charging" & "Raging" aren't really options either), so thank you for helping me see that.

The questions that remain are the final Lvl tally of one of the following: Druid12/Monk5/Barb3, Druid10/Monk7/Barb3 or Druid10/Monk5/Barb3/???2 (although Druid12+/Monk6-7+ is still tempting)...but honestly that can probably only be answered through in-game experience, for now I have up to Lvl 6 planned Barb3/Druid2/Monk1 so I have plenty of level (currently 3) to figure out where I'm going for level 7+

The other being which Monk path, but you seemed to have edited your post with some suggestions so I'll check that out now :D

Edit: Monk Path wise seems like "Long Death" is my safest bet, with Four Elements being an "Ask the DM" thing. I'll probably go with the former just to avoid table variance issues.

Edit2: It seems earth elemental gets the same ability that Barb3 "Bear" does so it's actually really tempting to drop Barbarian in favor of fast druid progression...this would greatly delay the "Resistance" but save me 3 levels.

Edit3: Oh and thanks again everyone, you've all really helped me get my head wrapped around this idea :D Still not done of course but much closer.

Sounds like you are starting to notice why people usually suggest against bear totem barbarian and such. yes you will be talk g half damage whole in rage.. Bug you will have around 20-50%of the hp you would have had otherwise. Also remember that unarmed defense is not natural armor+drx+con/wis... It's 10+dex mod+con/wis & even 20 wis on monk uad isn't much better than base... Certainly not if it means getting new forms when you would normally be counting the experience till you can step up.

Cr3 beasts at 9 is a set of options that are pretty lacking (but slowly improving with typ... But it's not the end of the world because you get rlemebtal wildshape @10 & cr4/5/6 critters at 12/15/18



Yes an earth rlemtal cam bd hidden by anything one or more sizes smaller. Fire/wayrt/air elementals have obvious difficulty for the rider

[Blind_Prophet]

Sounds like you are starting to notice why people usually suggest against bear totem barbarian and such. yes you will be talk g half damage whole in rage.. Bug you will have around 20-50%of the hp you would have had otherwise. Also remember that unarmed defense is not natural armor+drx+con/wis... It's 10+dex mod+con/wis & even 20 wis on monk uad isn't much better than base

Yeah it's really harsh for this build... So Likely take a single level of monk at either 1 or 2 than druid until 11 (Druid10/Monk1) than possible a bit more monk after than depending on how "tough" I feel.

Monk helps with enough forms that the single level is worth it, it also allows me to function well enough out of wildshape



Yes an earth rlemtal cam bd hidden by anything one or more sizes smaller. Fire/wayrt/air elementals have obvious difficulty for the rider

CMIIW but nothing in rules says I have to be humanoid either...I could easily be an earth elemental that is accommodating to a rider.

[Citan]

Hmmm...It will take some more discussion with my rider but let's break down the some of the options you mentioned

Resilient" Dire Wolf: Druid 2 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 14 (Shadow / 4 Elements): between Rage and Monk features (including Diamond Soul) you will be damn hard to bring down.

"Balanced" Giant Elk: Moon Druid 7 / Bear Barb 4 / Monk 9

OR (my addition) "Elemental Rage" Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)

Lvl 3 = Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 6 = Barb3/Druid2/Monk1
Lvl 9 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 10 = Monk5/Barb3/Druid2
Lvl 12 = Monk5/Druid4/Barb3 (+2 Wis)
Lvl 20 = Druid10-12/Monk5-7/Barb3 (Evasion vs. Feat & CR 3 Forms get elly's regardless)


Option Notes:
"Resilient" - AMAZING defensive features from monk (and barb 3 but all 3 builds get that) BUT Dire Wolf only has 37 HP which NEVER scales...Earth Elemental has 126 IIRC, also Wildshape duration is only 1 hour (1/2 druid level) making it difficult to be in form all day

"Balanced": This one isn't much better with Elk only having 42 HP...as with wolf great for low levels but I can see it becoming one shot at higher levels, that said wildshape is now for 3 hours. Losing feat/ASIs actually isn't all that bad since this build only needs +4 Wisdom. that said once again the monk abilities are VERY tempting, although my rider friend and I found that the feat "Mounted combatant" actually grants me the equivalent to Evasion AND 3rd edition improved evasion when she's riding my druid.

"Elemental Rage": Elk & Wolf are going to be an issue in mid-levels tempting to delay Bear-Barian until later to get Elly's earlier (CR 3s are around 52 HP, whereas Earth Elly has 126 IIRC) but than again I'll be taking alot more damage when I DO get hit, so I dunno, again as mentioned in "balanced" Monk evasion might be unnecessary due to "mounted combatant" so it's a question of how often I'm out of form and/or Riderless (should know by Lvl 12 no problem) whether I go for Druid10/Monk7 or Druid 12/Monk5 (or a lvl or 2 in a 4th class)


So looking at these 3 options I can definitely agree that allowing my druid levels to lag too much is a bad idea (so "Charging" & "Raging" aren't really options either), so thank you for helping me see that.

The questions that remain are the final Lvl tally of one of the following: Druid12/Monk5/Barb3, Druid10/Monk7/Barb3 or Druid10/Monk5/Barb3/???2 (although Druid12+/Monk6-7+ is still tempting)...but honestly that can probably only be answered through in-game experience, for now I have up to Lvl 6 planned Barb3/Druid2/Monk1 so I have plenty of level (currently 3) to figure out where I'm going for level 7+

The other being which Monk path, but you seemed to have edited your post with some suggestions so I'll check that out now :D

Edit: Monk Path wise seems like "Long Death" is my safest bet, with Four Elements being an "Ask the DM" thing. I'll probably go with the former just to avoid table variance issues.

Edit2: It seems earth elemental gets the same ability that Barb3 "Bear" does so it's actually really tempting to drop Barbarian in favor of fast druid progression...this would greatly delay the "Resistance" but save me 3 levels.

Edit3: Oh and thanks again everyone, you've all really helped me get my head wrapped around this idea :D Still not done of course but much closer.
Yeah, you noticed indeed the HP problem. :)

Please note that I did not suggest Elemental Builds because it seemed to me you really wanted a build with most classes bringing the most thematic features.
And, honestly, builds based on Dire Wolf or Elk could work without too much problem, on one condition (which depends mainly on your rider, and partially on your team): don't stay in the front line.
After all, these builds have very low HP compared to others, but tremendous speeds and defense (>60 normal speed + Dodge as bonus action + resistance against all damage).
Plus the idea that your rider can force attacks directed to you to target him instead with Mounted Combatant feat.

So the idea was to take advantage of this by making hit and run tactics. Of course, this is easier if your rider uses ranged attacks which may not be your initial idea (otherwise, unless your DM is nice and allow you to "share initiative", I don't see how you could coordinate so that you can close in, you both attack then you fall back, unless your rider uses Ready action but then if he's a Extra Attack martial it's a loss IIRC).

Other things that may or not help you are potential party buffs (Cleric casting a Shield of Faith / Bless) or Mobile feat (meaning you can safely disengage without resources, and yet another speed buff).

And Rages excepted, Monk and Druid resources both recharge on a short rest.

Of course though, if your main goal is to be a mount as often, long and reliably as possible, having a greater pool of HP will certainly help, in which case aiming towards Elementals ASAP is the best choice.
Although I'll let experienced people give opinion about how even a 120 HP creature fares 1/short rest against CR 13+ creatures, have no real experience of very high level game. But my guess is that unless you can short rest between every encounter, you will do some in humanoid form.

If you are fine with not being always the mount and switching between that role and humanoid gish, then the balanced/resilient builds I suggested will be good.

In case you want to let the path open to anything, start Monk 1, then Druid 2, then Barb 1 (still worth it imo for big bonus to damage twice per long rest) then straight to Druid 6, and then take a pause to evaluate how you fared so far. If you feel even Giant Elk is too frail and your action economy is packed (because you usually cast a Flaming Sphere for your bonus action for example or you use Moon Druid self-heal ability), go straight Druid 10. Otherwise, consider taking either Barbarian 3 or Monk 3, maybe even both, before taking Druid 10. Barbarian features will be extremely great with Earth Elemental (and EE provides only physical resistance, not all damage), and Monk Long Death ensures you a few ki for Dodge and occasional THP (not a great amount, but still a nice cushion with the half-damage).

EDIT: was thinking, if you'd like, I can help playtest a build with you (and anyone else who could be interested to test a build in a pure tactical encounter) on roll20.
Like, a character lvl 8 and a character lvl 14.
Provided you can wait until tuesday evening though.