Pack Tactics from hidden creatures

[Dalebert]

An invisible ally is taking the hide action successfully and is standing next to an enemy. A kobold gets pack tactics against that enemy by RAW. How do folks fluff this? He's obviously not any distraction.

[rhouck]

Is the enemy aware of the hidden creature at all?

For example, if the invisible ally has just attacked and is now hiding, the fluff could be the enemy feels like the ally must still be nearby but just can't find him. And the kobold knows how to exploit that distraction to gain advantage.

However, if the enemy has zero idea the invisible ally exists and the ally is successfully hiding, then I would say the RAW doesn't apply. Though I imagine this question includes the unspoken "this is for an AL game and I have to follow RAW" and so that's not an option :)

[Tetrasodium]

Is the enemy aware of the hidden creature at all?

For example, if the invisible ally has just attacked and is now hiding, the fluff could be the enemy feels like the ally must still be nearby but just can't find him. And the kobold knows how to exploit that distraction to gain advantage.

However, if the enemy has zero idea the invisible ally exists and the ally is successfully hiding, then I would say the RAW doesn't apply. Though I imagine this question includes the unspoken "this is for an AL game and I have to follow RAW" and so that's not an option :)

This is pretty much what I'd say even when playing my kobold or gm'ing for one. The question in the OP is probably a bit of an edge case with no clear "see page xyz says like such" that falls under dm judgement.

[Dalebert]

Can't you come up with any fluff to make the RAW make sense?

[Tetrasodium]

Can't you come up with any fluff to make the RAW make sense?


Pack Tactics. You have advantage on an attack roll
against a creature if at least one of your allies is within 5
feet of the creature and the ally isn't incapacitated.
raw doesn't really need to "make sense" when you run into edge cases that need some dm judgement. most likely that invisible hiding ally won't be there alone for long either from a third ally joining in or whatever. Once the kobold is aware of the attacker, even if just because mr greater invisibility stabbed mister mutual victim, they can do what needs doing for working with allies like the roman phalanx of death or whatever.

[Dalebert]

raw doesn't really need to "make sense" when you run into edge cases that need some dm judgement. most likely that invisible hiding ally won't be there alone for long either from a third ally joining in or whatever. Once the kobold is aware of the attacker, even if just because mr greater invisibility stabbed mister mutual victim, they can do what needs doing for working with allies like the roman phalanx of death or whatever.

Okay, but let's say none of that is happening. Let's say your invisible ally is pointedly doing nothing but hiding near enemies to grant you advantage via pack tactics.

[Tetrasodium]

Okay, but let's say none of that is happening. Let's say your invisible ally is pointedly doing nothing but hiding near enemies to grant you advantage via pack tactics.

uhh.... Why?.... even if they are just a cleric casting healing word on someone/wizard casting fireball on those guys way over there, they are still doing something & that magical chanting/collection of magical energy is going to be distracting. If the invisible person is not even doing that much... they souund more like a spectator than an ally

[Corran]

An invisible ally is taking the hide action successfully and is standing next to an enemy. A kobold gets pack tactics against that enemy by RAW. How do folks fluff this? He's obviously not any distraction.
Hmm, maybe I would have the enemy hear the invisible ally of the kobold moving towards him, so that the thought of an invisible creature approaching him can act as the distraction that would give the kobold advantage against said enemy, but.... the noise of the footsteps dissapears due to the successful stealth check so that the enemy although has a strong suspicion that the invisible creature is approaching him, he wouldnt know his exact position.
Wait..... what???

[ClearlyTough69]

I wouldn't try to fluff this as I don't think it's RAI.

My gut - and it's nothing more rational than my gut - says that the intention was this: your opponent has to perceive your ally adjacent to it for you to be able to benefit from Pack Tactics against it.

By the same token, when a rogue can Sneak Attack a creature that has another enemy within 5 feet of it, the intention was that this should apply only when the creature can actually perceives the other enemy next it.

I think both features need to be adjusted to make this clear.

How would you rule and fluff it?

[Tetrasodium]

I wouldn't try to fluff this as I don't think it's RAI.

My gut - and it's nothing more rational than my gut - says that the intention was this: your opponent has to perceive your ally adjacent to it for you to be able to benefit from Pack Tactics against it.

By the same token, when a rogue can Sneak Attack a creature that has another enemy within 5 feet of it, the intention was that this should apply only when the creature can actually perceives the other enemy next it.

I think both features need to be adjusted to make this clear.

How would you rule and fluff it?

I think it's such an edge case that it falls under "Almost anything that is not precisely worded is up to the DM." (https://twitter.com/DnD_AdvLeague/status/847152417674334209) making a specific rule for this odd thing where nobody seems to have a reason for why the ally would be acting like they are unconscious while hidden & invisible is why 3.5 had things like drowning someone to heal them & various absurdities like punpun or the villager cannon on an object. Right now it's up to the gm what happens when this spectator is there & that's good enough.

[Dalebert]

Seems like there would be ways you could impair or distract someone without revealing yourself to them. Maybe even just that uneasy feeling of being watched but you can't put your finger on it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Seems to me that all of the same fluff usually invoked to explain why invisibility isn't undetectability can be invoked here as well. Sounds, movement, blockage, ripples in the air.

If it's a corner case where someone is truly actively fighting with an invisible foe 5' away yet utterly undetected I can see a ruling to shut off Pack Tactics/SA.